I'll be the first to admit that I reroll a save every time I get a toxic fallout. It's simply not fun, nor challenging in a fun way. It's tedious and punishing simply because it requires a ridiculous amount of micromanaging for a long period of time in order to survive, and if you don't, you get demented colonists. If we had the ability to make a gas mask or something that prevents the effect of the fallout, then it's another deal, but right now it's such a chore that it can ruin a good game right away.
For this kind of thing you can just disable it in the scenario editor before starting if you don't want to deal with it, even in vanilla.
Unless I get it or something like a cold snap very early on as a tribe (toxic fallout kills crops gradually so having it super early in a cold biome is lethal) it's more a nuisance than a legit threat. Non tribes can scrounge up the meat from all the animals it kills, but tribes having this happen early would have no way to preserve it and are likely fleeing the area or dead if this is happening in 1st month or two of a cold biome.
Otherwise it's more a matter of setting allowed zones and roofing over pretty much every non-crop/windmill piece of land inside perimeter walls. I don't like it as an event due to the annoyance factor but it being lethal is rare. I'd probably rather deal with it than perfect on-the-hour micromanagement of sleeping sickness with herbal meds to prevent needing bedrest in 1st year as a tribe.
I actually LOVE toxic Fallout. Assuming it doesnt happen too soon of course. If you check my sig for my Mountain Forts then you know why they dont bother me. I am crazy prepared for them. Also its handy when you dont have to go and hunt everything manually. My best game ever was when it happened right when I was starting to dig into a mountain and had to work quickly to gather the metal to build hydroponics and such. When the timing is right, its a fun pressure to have on you.
That being said, gasmasks, hazmat suits, and maybe a medicine type to treat the buildup would be a welcome addition.
If you find a toxic fallout is hard and unbalanced, you just don't have the proper tactic.
Sure it can be deadly if you would run out of food and didn't got some indoor farming allready.
But i don't see the point you need much more micromanagment then before.
Uproof all the area you need, create an new indoor/safe/uproofed area, and restrict all pawns/animals to it.
If needed you can create uproofed walkways to mining areas (doors can hold 6 tiles roofs in each direction.).
I dont want to roof up my nice open plan settlement though. The issue is simply the micro needed to ensure not being outside too long...imo.
I usually have several zones for my colonists, one for the main complex in case of manhunters, one for main complex and bedrooms in case of fallout and the usual home zone of course.
If one colonist gets too much buildup he gets restricted to the manhunter zone, that way I could manage fallouts pretty well. Still dont like the fallouts though, just because they empty the map of vegetation and it never really grows back to its former state, and a fallout is kind of guaranteed in a game of like 3-4 years.
Toxic fallout is a time to mine out areas or make my base cute if it hits mid-game. I'm okay with it, but I do find it boring if it goes on for too long which is usually the case.
Gas masks and hazmats is something I've been wanting in the game too. Maybe only available to loot from the raiders or buy from traders? The idea of sieges with gas masks during a fallout sounds intriguing.
I would prefer to see a dust storm event implemented over toxic fallout in vanilla.
Toxic Fallout, like volcano winter, is great.
You have thing arround problems. The indoor garden, you alway want to build? Better now!
Micro Managment? No... i make zones, i build roofs on ways. It take me 10 Minuts to prepare every thing. And when another toxic fallout hit, i only need 5 Minuts, to edit my zones (because i grow). The only problem could be food.
If you have problems with this event, ask how we deal with it. But its not a real problem. Somepeople experince there first canibalismus. Others had to kill there pets. It can be hard. I never had such hard fallouts.
Toxic Fallout and Volcanic Winter events are exactly why my colony keeps 300 simple meals + arbitrarily many fine meals in stock at all times, even with only 7-10 colonists. Every so often I sell off extra fine meals + any that have "aged" a bit (from "Zzzt!" or eclipses shutting down my freezer) and cook up replacements.
If you have lesser than 7 colonists, its often over in 2 weeks. Never had a very long fallout with a small colony. Dont know what the fuzz is about (hope i use this term right) :)
I agree, it's just a micromanagment mess, not only colonists but animals too. if you have a large herd and you don't know how long it will last you have to send them off to feed every day and back into roofed area. while holding 100k of hay might be easier, but you need freezers for that 100k and it adds up to a lot of wealth. having to micro pawns of who can grow food now or stay indoors etc is a pain in the arse as well. just hate it from micro point of view and it adds 0 challange.
Excuse me..? There's absolutely no need to refrigerate hay, much less freeze it. It keeps for quite a long time, as-is.
You don't need freezers for hay. They last a long time without a fridge. Plus the option to make kibble. So there's zero micro after setting a zone with food for animals unless attacked. Micro isn't too bad since there's not much reason for leaving the base after hauling the dead animals and building some roofs.
hay lasts for 3 seasons (45 days) without freeze, but if you want to keep large stockpiles just in case of toxic fallout you have to either freeze it or it will rot away, animals don't eat the hay that is closest to rotting. even keeping 15k stockpiles that last for 5 days results in some hay rotting away. basicly you are suggesting that i grow an extra 100k of hay every 45 days, that's no joke ammount andrequires insane amount of gworing, land and hauling just for it to rot away....
I'm not dedicating valuable time and resourses (meat) into making kibbie for massive herd. making so much kibbie would end up with my 8 man colony 6 making kibbie 24/7 and the other 3 hunting animals for kibbie. thanks but no thanks
If you have such a great herd ... than you should have thing about it?
You can send one colonist with the herd away to graze on other map tiles. It sounds, that you normaly have good seasons.
But herd animals arent so easy, i know. I have many winter month and because of this i didnt use such animals.
Did anyone try to pack his animals in drop-pods? Will they die? Is it like the cat example: As long as you didnt look they are 50% alive and 50% dead?
WRT pawn protection, IMO power armour should provide some just like it does for other environmental effects; WRT animal protection simply set up your covered animal & pawn zones (including covered walkways) carefully: use growing zones for crops you don't care about in your killbox(es) to keep the trees down & provide food for the covered animals
It's a PITA that I wouldn't miss if it was discontinued, but OTOH I've found no decent reason to force-mod it out..
Shortforms i didnt know. Like WRT. Or PITA
Why should power armour protect you? Because it filters the air arround you? When it have a filter, power armour head gear should lose ... how is the english word... it should slowly destroy itself because there is no way to repair the filters.
Its an Armour against high energy and bullets. Not against everything. Because then i want it fireproof. And you should go out when its -40°C or +40°C. Because Power Armour. It says its in the name: Omnipotent Armour....oh wait.
My point is, there shouldnt be an amour against everything. Power Amour is for Combat. Its not ABC-Amour (Atomic, Biological, Chemical).
Perhabs there could be such thing which would be nice.
Fallout isnt the hardest thing, if you can survive a winter.
Couldn't you just separate the hay that's going to expire so they eat that first by filtering items in the zone with hit points? 3 seasons is a good amount of time and could get you through most fallouts. If you're growing 100k worth of hay and have plenty of hay rotting then maybe you don't NEED to grow that much hay, or not grow it all at once.
Quote from: Lowkey1987 on August 01, 2017, 05:07:54 PM
Did anyone try to pack his animals in drop-pods? Will they die?
I believe they'll be alive. But a pod can only hold so much weight, around 160?
Quote from: Lowkey1987 on August 01, 2017, 05:37:35 PM
Shortforms i didnt know. Like WRT. Or PITA
WRT = With Regards To; PITA.. someone else can explain if you haven't come across it elsewhere already ;)
QuoteWhy should power armour protect you? Because it filters the air arround you? When it have a filter, power armour head gear should lose ... how is the english word... it should slowly destroy itself because there is no way to repair the filters.
All armour (& any other clothing) currently degenerates if worn
QuoteIts an Armour against high energy and bullets. Not against everything. Because then i want it fireproof. And you should go out when its -40°C or +40°C.
Power armour isn't an exoskeleton (cf Ripley in Aliens); it's fully enclosed as is implied by its environmental boost vs heat/cold & lack of other clothing options when worn. Not sure why it doesn't protect legs tho.. I'm not saying it should have top protection vs fallout; just some, as it currently does vs heat/cold; likewise a duster/pants/cowboy/tinfoil hat combo could provide minimal protection if made from the right materials
Poison = ingested; toxic = blood/nerve invasion (& just for completeness, (en)venom = blood/nerve poisoning via injection, usually by snakes/spiders or envenomed weapons)
Radiation fallout IRL tends to be problematical WRT alpha & beta particles which are easily stopped by heavy clothing/thin metal, although the physical particles themselves are often poisonous/toxic; poisonous (alpha/beta emitting particles)/toxin should be stopped by gas masks (poison) & heavy/advanced clothing covering all the body + extremities (toxin)
OFC this method would be useless in a tribal start, but then tribal starts tend to have other priorities..
Quote from: Jibbles on August 01, 2017, 05:53:38 PM
Couldn't you just separate the hay that's going to expire so they eat that first by filtering items in the zone with hit points? 3 seasons is a good amount of time and could get you through most fallouts. If you're growing 100k worth of hay and have plenty of hay rotting then maybe you don't NEED to grow that much hay, or not grow it all at once.
you can't seperate the rotting hay because it does not lose hit points. impossible.
I'm not growing 100k worth of hay, but that's what you need for large herds if you don't plan to micro them all the time during the toxic fallout.
and that's exactly what the problem is with toxic fallout, the massive amount of micro. there is 0 difficulty of surviving the fallout as long as you do the constant micro of pawns and animals. you don't even ever need to prepair for it as long as you micro and it makes it just a boring 0 challange funruining event.
It's possible. I just tested it lol. But I understand your issue with micro part. I was genuinely curious about managing large herds of animals since I don't usually have that many. are you the guy with the 100 boars? ::)
The freshness of that item could be filtered through hit points. The max for hay is 60. If you filter the items with 50 hit points then it would sort hay that has been degraded to 30. I believe that's how that works but could be wrong.
What micromanaging? You simply set up zones to keep everyone under roofs. Then everything runs smoothly as long as you have food. Food is the main issue. You either need a large stockpile or a greenhouse. No hydroponics needed. With a greenhouse you could have toxic fallout indefinitely
It's more of an annoyance as it ruins the whole map and trees take ages to regrow
Quote from: Snafu_RW on August 01, 2017, 05:17:59 PM
WRT pawn protection, IMO power armour should provide some just like it does for other environmental effects; WRT animal protection simply set up your covered animal & pawn zones (including covered walkways) carefully: use growing zones for crops you don't care about in your killbox(es) to keep the trees down & provide food for the covered animals
It's a PITA that I wouldn't miss if it was discontinued, but OTOH I've found no decent reason to force-mod it out..
I agree. The only thing I don't like about some of these events is that they have no grace period. There are a couple biomes that are winnable for tribe tech, but if you get a cold snap, toxic fallout, or blight during the short growing window in year 1 you're basically dead. Starting new crops after abandoning colony will take too many days, migrating to warmer climate too long, etc.
The solution, if you can call it that, is "don't play tribes in the tundra", but to me that's a boring solution. Most of the events in the game have counter-play, and if these ones had a grace period they would consistently have counterplay also.
It's not like the game doesn't already have some restrictions, either. You're not getting scyther drop podded on day 2, ever...so I think it's reasonable to expand grace period on some event types so that the player doesn't get instant game over and lives or dies on choices made AFTER the game starts.
Interesting. It's one of the events I enjoy the most. It has so much story flavour to it.
I'm not a big fan of solar flares, but they have taught me a lot about food and preservation.
My most hated event is the mandatory mad squirrel that was always the first thing on Cassandra. But I play randy nowadays do not a problem anymore :D
The only thing I dislike about toxic fallout is that it plays out pretty much the same way every time. You huddle in your base to avoid dementia while everything on the map dies. Food isn't really an issue as long as the map has animals, you just go out and pick up some corpses as they drop dead from the toxins.
Quote from: Lowkey1987 on August 01, 2017, 05:07:54 PM
If you have such a great herd ... than you should have thing about it?
You can send one colonist with the herd away to graze on other map tiles. It sounds, that you normaly have good seasons.
But herd animals arent so easy, i know. I have many winter month and because of this i didnt use such animals.
Did anyone try to pack his animals in drop-pods? Will they die? Is it like the cat example: As long as you didnt look they are 50% alive and 50% dead?
I tried it,but why dat pod can't fit us all?
Quote from: cultist on August 03, 2017, 08:05:01 PM
The only thing I dislike about toxic fallout is that it plays out pretty much the same way every time. You huddle in your base to avoid dementia while everything on the map dies. Food isn't really an issue as long as the map has animals, you just go out and pick up some corpses as they drop dead from the toxins.
You should get my mod called Really Toxic Fallout if you're getting bored dragging in animals that have been recently deaded by toxic fallout.
I think you're right though, it could do with a little bit of variation.
Quote from: MarvinKosh on August 04, 2017, 05:28:41 AM
You should get my mod called Really Toxic Fallout...
Sounds interesting. What exactly does it do?
If it makes pawns poisonous if they have certain levels of toxic buildup, I'm all for it.
Quote from: XeoNovaDan on August 04, 2017, 06:35:04 AM
Quote from: MarvinKosh on August 04, 2017, 05:28:41 AM
You should get my mod called Really Toxic Fallout...
Sounds interesting. What exactly does it do?
lol it makes fallout even more dangerous lol... i've tried it, then deactivated it lol.. too hardcore for the timebeing for me
If it makes pawns poisonous if they have certain levels of toxic buildup, I'm all for it.
Mentioned it over on Discord, but here's a recap:
It makes the usual complications occur at the lower levels of exposure, and make them more likely at the higher levels of exposure.
So you want to either have some kind of gear which protects you from toxic exposure (I think Remote Explosives had a Gas Mask back in A16, it may still do) or stay under roofed areas for the duration.
This indirectly means that any way you have of growing food indoors or extending your food supply suddenly becomes more useful.
People who say roofing walkways is key, are actually right. Beyond that it's the basic idea of this event to keep you from going outside.
Suggestion
In my opinion the fallout effect should be much more durable in long term damage. Something like severity dropping by 0,83 per day. By this one colonist aint die by getting into the rain, but the fallout effect will follow him for 1-2 years, putting him for all this time into danger of getting a permanent disease.
If it would be like this, The fallout event would feel very dangerous and inspiring respect.
The Idea of a hazard suit sounds quite nice, but is shouln't hold longer as a day or half.
current behavior
My current reaction for fallout is to restrict all my pawns to home area, which ist mostly roofed, until all animals die. Then I set most my colonists on hauling 1.
Especially in tropical or boreal biomes I had some very lucky days with 5-10 elephant corpses or 20 elk which granted my colony a whole collection of new elephant pants.
After 1-2 Days of hauling, all haulers gained 25-50% toxic buff and i restrict them again into homearea to get rid off it. Afterwards, again 2 days hauling.
tl;dr:
Toxic Fallout is fun. Just keep your pawns out of the rain once every day or two.
Toxic Fallout is easy to deal with. I think it comes down to poor base planning and time management if you actually find it detrimental.
In my current base, all I need to do is build 4 walls and my entire base will turn from outdoor to indoor. Also having a bunch of animal corpses frozen in a freezer so i have enough food to last me through a while.
Quote from: Nameless on August 04, 2017, 09:50:48 AM
Toxic Fallout is easy to deal with. I think it comes down to poor base planning and time management if you actually find it detrimental.
In my current base, all I need to do is build 4 walls and my entire base will turn from outdoor to indoor. Also having a bunch of animal corpses frozen in a freezer so i have enough food to last me through a while.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, all of the suggested countermeasures assume toxic fallout does not hit you early in the game, pre-electricity and A/C on tribes in particular.
This is why I downloaded a skylight mod. Indoor gardening with no need for sunlamps! My colonists end up being mostly vegetarian.
Quote from: TheMeInTeam on August 04, 2017, 02:37:15 PMAs I mentioned earlier in the thread, all of the suggested countermeasures assume toxic fallout does not hit you early in the game, pre-electricity and A/C on tribes in particular.
Not really; the key is getting roofs up & harvesting <unroofed plants> immediately
Animals outside are free food if you haul them; property (owned) animals are either food or protected as you wish/need. Simple meals will last a reasonable time given undercover storage & a full time cook; the main problem IMO is how long the fallout lasts: it gets to be a pain if >2 seasons & they coincide with your growing season(s) :(
As mentioned above, it's not /instantly/ worrying: your pawns can survive a day or 2 outside with no ill effects provided you remember to keep an eye on them.. perhaps setting bedrest to 1 may help if there isn't a mod that checks for something equivalent & assigns suitable zones/tasks (eg if outside dmg >25%, get indoors until dmg <5%)? Alternatively adjust their forced sleep times/zones so they stay undercover most of the time
The issue with tribals is that the toxic fallout, if it hits early, can easily consume your entire growing season. Assume a 30-day growing season. You plant crops on Day 1. Toxic fallout strikes on Day 4, before even rice can finish growing. You might get to harvest some of it, but not enough to survive on. You grab up all the meat, but you're a tribe, you don't have refrigeration so it all goes bad in a few days. And this toxic fallout can easily last an entire season, so let's say it lasts 22 days. You're now on Day 26 of your growing season... and that rice isn't gonna finish before the growing season ends. You're now almost entirely without food for an entire year. Combine this with a cold snap for extra fatality since that can easily lock out your whole season.
Quote from: Trylobyte on August 04, 2017, 09:26:21 PM... Toxic fallout strikes on Day 4, before even rice can finish growing. You might get to harvest some of it, but not enough to survive on...
I think you just brought the answer for this Thread. There should be a new type of growable plant, which is immune or resistant to fallout. E.g. Potoatoes, as mighty root could be not getting destroyed, or just taking 15% damage of fallout and grow at 33% while doing so. By this one can grow. One has to tweak the number, but I think it's gonna be cool if the time the plan needs to grow on fertile ground exactly fits the time potatoes survive in fallout.
Alternative there could be a new plant that fits this role. Something like the bunker-carrot, or the survivor-Salat or mutated-Mango.
In the end the point is that tribals have no tool to fight against fallout, and this would be one.
Quote from: Bolgfred on August 05, 2017, 01:33:24 AM
Alternative there could be a new plant that fits this role. Something like the bunker-carrot, or the survivor-Salat or mutated-Mango.
In the end the point is that tribals have no tool to fight against fallout, and this would be one.
Wouldn't that kind of defeat the main challenge of a toxic fallout? I could sort of agree to it though if that plant makes them sick.
Sickness and very low yield and high planting time, that forces everybodY to go out planting plants.
I agree with you, It should be a chance, not a gift.
I like that idea.
I guess what I want would be a lot to ask for as I don't see tribals surviving these changes. Toxic air seeping into rooms, roofs don't provide safety. Devices to help purify or alleviate toxic buildup for humans/items/resources. Possibly mutated animals. I would like to have it as if you're adapting to a new biome. Think it would be tricky to add new unique/interesting weather events such as blizzards or whatever, if the main idea is supposed to wipe out plants and make you stay inside.
Toxic Fallout already can't fire before day 20, and lasts up to 10ish days. So in case that happens, you need to hoard enough food to last 20 days or so, I think. 10 days for the duration, plus another 10 days while you're waiting for a fresh round of crops to grow.
Tribals start with pemmican researched. So if you also add some hunting into your early game preparation, you can have a stockpile of food which will keep for a good long while in the event of unforeseen disaster.
I don't like this event actually... Especially with animals. They need to go outside my base to eat grass, It's such a pain to micro this. Have to "restrict area" all the time, then "allow area" to let them eat. I did this during 15 days, it was so annoying ! (I was laking of animal food, that's why^^)
Animals should just go eat grass outside once they turn into "malnutrition" state, even in restricted area :(
By the way It could be great to have possibility to craft an outfits to protect pawns, like an anti-radiation suit but for toxic rains. A craft that require maybe 10 or 20 medicinal, something balanced I mean.
it's my opinion ^^
Quote from: Jozay on September 28, 2017, 11:01:41 AM
I don't like this event actually... Especially with animals. They need to go outside my base to eat grass, It's such a pain to micro this. Have to "restrict area" all the time, then "allow area" to let them eat. I did this during 15 days, it was so annoying ! (I was laking of animal food, that's why^^)
Animals should just go eat grass outside once they turn into "malnutrition" state, even in restricted area :(
By the way It could be great to have possibility to craft an outfits to protect pawns, like an anti-radiation suit but for toxic rains. A craft that require maybe 10 or 20 medicinal, something balanced I mean.
it's my opinion ^^
I just let them eat my hydroponics. I set the barn temp to whatever max cold the animal can take and store food in with them. Animals that cant take the cold can still eat the food I produce.
First, I couldn't survive winter, a few of colonists starved to death. Then I had toxic fallout. Roofed gardens and kibble did their job, I didn't feel touched until it came off. Also, I had 2 colonies so I didn't feel bored, as the second one wasn't under toxic fallout.
I love toxic fallout. It's one of my favorite events!
There are many ways to deal with it and the fun is to decide wich way to go and how you actually will do it.
Only thing that annoys me is that its sometime so short that it ends while you're stil adapting to the circumstances...
I've just had a toxic fallout that lasted 2-3 day (I'm not certain, some animals survived on ~95% in wild). I've just started building my colony from the beginning but I didn't give up and it ended up with a lot of free meat (although some animal died, there were more animal corpses with complete toxic buildup).
When I was testing the alpha where it first came out, there was a bug that never let it end, and I got it. That was the best game ever, I loved the rush of having to dig under the mountain to survive, all that.
Toxic fallout is about the only time my builder actually gets around to smoothing those rough floors.