Re: "Gay" as a trait -- split from Suggestions

[Carlyscarlet]

So the exact same thing as prostophile. Yet I don't here the same level of outcry.

And we can avoid the rejection bit by... not having it as a thing that happens in the game. If fact, if that was in fact added I would tell my transfriends to not buy this game for adding trans brutality. We don't have racism in the game (hostility towards different raced people), why would tynan add transphobia?

And a botched surgery can happen to anyone, like people who want a bionically enhanced arm. Being beaten up for being trans is only related to trans people. So including that WILL trigger trans people, not botched surgeries.

Honestly, I'm not seeing why those reasons should be why trans people should be excluded from the game. We have neurotic, too smart, and prostophile that affect mood and break threshold and we've hadn't had issue with any of them. Transgender people just present a different kind of pawn that people have to deal with until escape. You can keep them joyed up to avoid their mood debuff or get them their "upgrade" in order to get a mood buff. Its not really big gameplay wise anyway regardless, its just more flavor and being more inclusive which is never bad IMO.

[mumblemumble]

Carly with all due respect rimworld is a simulator,  and i think simulation of things to their realistic ways as much as pheasable is a good idea. Trans bullying exists in real life,  why exclude it from the game? As does racism,  both in extreme and subtle forms. Adding them isn't "supporting"  them,  but just adding it.  Tynan I'm sure doesn't support cannibalism or slavery,  yet he added those.

Just because someone is uncomfortable with something doesn't mean it shouldn't exist.

[Lady Wolf]

Carly with all due respect rimworld is a simulator,  and i think simulation of things to their realistic ways as much as pheasable is a good idea.

I never said I wasn't uncomfortable with it, I just was agreeing that those who are trans may find it upsetting find to have the trans characters in game mistreated/bullied as they may have been in real life.

Edit: Derp, my IRL name is Carly so I initially thought that was directed at me lol.

As I mentioned in a couple other similar threads, I'm all for it being added as a mod, but I think the developers time and effort would be better spent working on new features for the game that's too complex for modders to add otherwise, and provide a more noticeable addition to the games complexity/fun factor. (like the new game + idea, or other complicated suggestions others have made that would require alteration to the source code and the level of coding finesse only the developers can manage.)

[Carlyscarlet]

I'm gonna be completely honest here and say fuck no. You aren't the one to judge which games we are allowed to be in. Ideally, all games should be as inclusive as possible. I see no reason why trans+ people can't be in Rimworld. The world is harsh? Well newsflash buttercup, the world RIGHT NOW is extremely harsh to transpeople. We are seen as deviants and predators by most conservative people because of out identity. "Men in dresses/tomboys". They think we are just dressing up to go in and prey on children, a lie widely propagated by conservative media. Laws are regularly made against us to allow discrimination. You thought the one in NC is bad? There have bills pushed that'll make it so that people will be paid to point out transpeople in bathrooms that match their gender identity, basically bounty-hunting for transpeople. And even more twisted, vile and harsh? We are regularly murdered and driven to suicide. Our suicide attempt rates are the highest among minorities, above 40%. you know Mumble's comment on getting reject/beaten for finding out a person is trans. That happens IRL, and transpeople are murdered for it. You can google several news articles of transgender women being killed by someone they were dating. And people regularly say its their fault and victimblame, basically blaming us for getting ourselves murdered and not the murderer for murdering us.

People harrass, send threats, doxx us, abuse us (physically and sexually), and even murder us. And for what? What you might say? For having the gall to be open about our identity.

And this is the world, right now, for us.

So Rimworld is too harsh for us? Fuck that noise. The world right now is harsher than Rimworld can be for us and other minorities. And I rather Rimworld stay that way and not include those kinds of real life struggles trans+ people face right now. The struggles in Rimworld are about survival, not gender identity, gender, race, and orientation. They challenge the player to use the pawns and all the traits and quirks they have with them to survive, thrive, and escape. An old black woman with cataracts, a white teenage boy who is neurotic, and an asian man who is a great shooter but is afraid of fire. These characters from different background all fit in well into the survival story of Rimworld, and I can't see why a trans man who came from a mining colony and was too poor to transition can't fit into this ragtag group as well.

[mumblemumble]

Wolf, I've felt a pain in my gut a few times in rimworld too, from breakups, family issues, ect. Its a game which is emotionally engaging, and sometimes a little bit painful to watch, but that is part of the "storytelling" experience.  Sure, seeing a girl break up with a guy after he saved her, got maimed in the process, because of a small argument, before an infection slowly killed him hit me right in the feels. It hurt, it hurt bad, it reminded me of a few break ups I had, and DAMN that hurt... BUT, I would never, EVER say "rim-world shouldn't have x because it hurts my feeling and made me a bit sad". Even though, embarrassing to say, that situation got me really, really effected emotionally, and hate to say it, brought a tear to my eye, I wouldn't say that shouldn't happen..

I think padding it so these heartache causing events don't happen is a bit of a dis-service to rim-world in general. The bad, and the good together are what make rimworld SO great, the times of low and desperation making times of prosperity and triumph all the more satisfying, and times of hopelessness and despair made more impactful by better times.

Oh and, I wouldn't mind them added IF social stigma, relationship issues, surgery failure, attacks on them by those who disapprove, and other stuff was added ALONG WITH trans folks, but I know you guys would never accept a colonist hating a trans colonist having a possibility to beat them up because they flirted with them. Its just silly to say to add trans people, but NO trans resistance / animosity. That is unrealistic, and doesn't fit the game.

And carly, seeing as you admit the world is harsh, would you be ok if all that was added alongside? Harassment, threats, abuse, murder, all that jazz? it is a simulator after all... Or are you saying you only want CERTAIN  aspects to make it the way you want, not representing reality? Even if you cannot see why people think certain ways (understandable as you aren't them, and are trans yourself as you admit right?) they still think it, and no amount of time in the future will ever fully destroy a way of thinking.

As for laws against trans, laws pro trans outnumber them vastly...just saying.

[Lady Wolf]

I'm gonna be completely honest here and say fuck no.

-snip

Ease down Carly, no need to blow a gasket and get the thread locked. 

I think you managed to somehow miss my point so let me rephrase:

Games are meant to be fun, for many people they provide a nice escape from the boredom/pain/struggle every day life is. For those kinds of people they tend to enjoy not having reminders of the crap they go through in every day life when they sit down for a bit of escapism with a video game.

Granted you may not have that problem, but other trans people may very well find the inclusion of a trans character that is bulled/shunned/abused very upsetting because it mirrors events that happen to them in real life on a daily basis they'd just as soon not be reminded of while playing a video game.

That's the point I was supporting, that others besides you may be upset by it, and that is worth keeping that in mind when considering the inclusion of the trans minority in the vanilla game.

The other point I was trying to make is that in my opinion Rimworld isn't be best place for it compared to other games that would allow the trait to have more of a noteworthy story telling effect. So feel free to disagree with my onion, but there's no need to get so aggressive about it.

[Mathenaut]

You have a point there. If straight colonists don't have a 'straight' trait, that's really defining 'normal' isn't it?

Well, yes. That doesn't mean that gay people are evil deviants, but it does mean that they are a substantial minority.

I can understand the upset at losing a trait slot to it, though.

[DFKabuto]

I'm gonna be completely honest here and say fuck no. You aren't the one to judge which games we are allowed to be in. Ideally, all games should be as inclusive as possible. I see no reason why trans+ people can't be in Rimworld. The world is harsh? Well newsflash buttercup, the world RIGHT NOW is extremely harsh to transpeople. We are seen as deviants and predators by most conservative people because of out identity. "Men in dresses/tomboys". They think we are just dressing up to go in and prey on children, a lie widely propagated by conservative media. Laws are regularly made against us to allow discrimination. You thought the one in NC is bad? There have bills pushed that'll make it so that people will be paid to point out transpeople in bathrooms that match their gender identity, basically bounty-hunting for transpeople. And even more twisted, vile and harsh? We are regularly murdered and driven to suicide. Our suicide attempt rates are the highest among minorities, above 40%. you know Mumble's comment on getting reject/beaten for finding out a person is trans. That happens IRL, and transpeople are murdered for it. You can google several news articles of transgender women being killed by someone they were dating. And people regularly say its their fault and victimblame, basically blaming us for getting ourselves murdered and not the murderer for murdering us.

People harrass, send threats, doxx us, abuse us (physically and sexually), and even murder us. And for what? What you might say? For having the gall to be open about our identity.

And this is the world, right now, for us.

So Rimworld is too harsh for us? Fuck that noise. The world right now is harsher than Rimworld can be for us and other minorities. And I rather Rimworld stay that way and not include those kinds of real life struggles trans+ people face right now. The struggles in Rimworld are about survival, not gender identity, gender, race, and orientation. They challenge the player to use the pawns and all the traits and quirks they have with them to survive, thrive, and escape. An old black woman with cataracts, a white teenage boy who is neurotic, and an asian man who is a great shooter but is afraid of fire. These characters from different background all fit in well into the survival story of Rimworld, and I can't see why a trans man who came from a mining colony and was too poor to transition can't fit into this ragtag group as well.

Killing Support for a Cause 101

[mumblemumble]

Yeah wolf, those situations which make me almost cry are exceptionally rare, but enough that I'm well aware of them. Really am embarrassed to admit rimworld can do that to me but it can.

But trans people would be rather rare to begin with, so a bullied, much less murdered trans would be about equally as rare. So for the sake of equality, I say add them in alongside, because everyone loves everyone being treated evenly, right? That is equality yes?

Also carly, if you are speaking about in America, things are nowhere near as harsh as rimworld is. Rimworld has extreme isolation with little to no peer support. Rimworld has you fighting to survive, struggling just to feed yourself. Rimworld has frequent attacks which routinely maim people indiscriminately . Rimworld has diseases which can end up fatal if you don't have a doctor. Rimworld is much harsher than america, especially because an LGBT person in america has a MASSIVE support network, lawyers, legislation's, politicians, ect, all supporting them. On the rim? All you have to support you is yourself, your 2 hands, and your companions, and often theres little to no time to focus on ones self.  And usually if for whatever reason you cannot function, you are left to die, like dead weight. And unlike in America when you can speak out, call the press, get support from the lgbt or ACLU, on the rim you have absolutely no-one to defend you , unless you are lucky enough to make a few friends.

and yes, things should be viewed in the context of a colony with cramped living space, and people being unavoidable, as well as life being a resource... So yes, murder would be unlikely, and probably punished / prevented by player even if they were anti LGBT (survival before ethics I guess) But people who otherwise just keep distance from them would be forced to deal with someone they don't like, leading to tension.

also

Edit: Derp, my IRL name is Carly so I initially thought that was directed at me lol.

I found this much funnier than I should have   

[JesterHell]

Jesus christ, so many things to reply to.

Uhm... Sorry, heterosexual, and even gay and bisexual are much, MUCH  more reasonable than being into bestiality, or intersexuality,

That's a matter of opinion, for instance an old testament bible thumper would disagree with you on that, Its all relative to someones personal values and morals nothing more.

considering the major health risks to both.

The health risks they also are a matter of opinion, for some people that major risk is only minor to them because they their desires make them change their risk evaluation.

And in reality things can change, asexuals can become straight or gay, straight can become bi, ect. The whole "born that way" trope is utter bs.

Your claim that "born that way" is BS.

Several other studies indicate that sexual orientation — heterosexuality, bisexuality, and homosexuality — is determined by peculiarities of the brain structure and differences in brain chemistry. Cultural or societal factors, upbringing, moral leanings, and educational attainments do not determine sexual orientation as greatly as neural mechanisms do.

url]http://brainblogger.com/2015/05/14/homosexuality-in-the-brain/[/url]

Gay men and heterosexual women had halves of a similar size, while the right side was bigger in lesbian women and heterosexual men.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7456588.stm

Brain scans have provided the most compelling evidence yet that being gay or straight is a biologically fixed trait.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex/

In some ways the brains of straight men and lesbians are on similar wavelengths, the research suggests. Likewise, gay men and straight women appear to have similar brains, in some respects. The findings are new evidence that homosexuals may be born with a predisposition to be gay.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/06/080616-gay-brain.html

So it would seem that your statement is the BS one, if the science is anything to go by.

And honestly, the whole thing is assuming people would WANT to be tolerant, left to their own devices, in their own society, and to think nobody would have a problem, especially when social structure was just added is plain old silly. In-fact I'm surprised no pawns have dislike towards gay people, that isn't realistic. I mean, I've seen colonists kill each other over insults even when they were friends, whats to say the same might happen if another colonist made them uncomfortable with their "orientation", or insisting being called a different title all the sudden?

Tynan Has mentioned the idea of a potential beliefs system before.

I've wanted to do a beliefs system for ages, but I think I should do a "social relationships" system first if I'm gonna go down that path.

also, if there were those into bestiality, would we occasionally run into chinchillas or cats / dogs with internal injuries from it? or an animal mauling someone over a "romance" attempt?

And that's somehow worse then the potential "hate crimes" that would occur if some pawn did dislike gays? Its seems to me that your opposition is based in personal distaste and that you use reason to justify its non inclusion.

Sorry but i fail to see how even more lgbt elements could be an "interesting game mechanic", unless it was realistic which would surely be offensive to people.

I think it could be interesting, especially when combined with a beliefs system that enables such realism.

As is,  gay trait is just "there"  and does nothing for gameplay ,  and others would provide nothing (asexual)  at best,  and be a downright negative trait at worst (transsexual,  zoophile).

That is also a matter of opinion, personally I'd see at least zoophile as a positive on account of the amusement it would provide me thanks to the fact colonist can have opinions of other it'd be funny to watch the reactions to the zoophile.

I don't think its worth coding such obscure traits which will be annoying to deal with,  be bickered over 10 times as much as this,  and do jack for gameplay when we could instead work on something really interesting,  like doing our own raids.

you have no interest in these trait and I have no interest in conducting my own raids, as I've said before what its a matter of personal opinion and the only person who's opinion matter is Tynan's.

If it wasn't for people insisting on "the full representation of sexuality",  this idea wouldn't be supported much.  Its suggested because people want inclusion,  nothing more. 

And that's a problem for you because?

And saying they "will exist"  is a silly exist.  I'm sure taking a piss will exist daily for colonists,  doesn't mean i think it should be programmed.  And if it did exist, i think it would be fleeting,  and shunned severely.

I personally would like there to be a "bladder" system like the Sims so....

The reason why I'm against it is because its unrealistic, and not just in a "this cannot realistically happen" way, but in an immersion breaking "why would this work in this universe" sort of way... everything has consequences in rimworld, and more extreme sexual traits would have much more extreme outcomes I would think. Someone turning transgender could end with a dramatic cost for mood from dysphoria / immense cost for hormones and surgery, and surgery could end up botched ending in even worse effects, or end up with a fatal infections. And surgery in real life with that is pretty nasty to begin with. Even if we assume we use more advanced methods, like a vat grown penis and testicles or vagina, the cost would be so much that most people would instead use it for replacing organs that were DAMAGED, not that... So it really comes down to, don't add it, add it but have laughable realism and have it be more "token" and "padded", or add it realistically, and get everyone mad.

These don't seem like a reasons to not add it to me, add it realistically and if people get mad that's on them and their sensitivities.

And for zoophiles, I could see it being problematic with the farming aspect, if someone found out his animal he bonded with was "romanced",

The way I see it the one who's bonded is liable to to also be the one who doing the "romancing".

I could see a witch hunt happening to avenge the violated, and potentially injured animal.

There could be "witch hunts" for the zoophile's but how is that any different then having some people dislike gays like you suggested and them going on a witch hunt?

All these things I cannot see happening in a glamorous way, nor flattering, which would cause an outrage, so I figure it is best to not add it, to avoid even more arguments. Which there WOULD be, if added.

So you just want to avoid confrontation, that's not a good enough reason for me nor should it be for anyone imho.

Though, hey, if all the sexual traits out there, including sadism was added, and prison was changed to punish / try to re-rehabilitate people, it could make for some dark, and crazy storytelling. Imagine an attempted, or even successful rapist, being flogged as punishment, risking death, but trying to make a spectacle out of it to enforce behavior. Would be even more interesting if you needed that colonist... But that would probably be a bit much for rimworld

Crime within my colony and a justice system to go along with it sounds great to me, +1 to this Idea.

Problem is, cannibalism is fairly detached, rape and such carries more weight to it.... I've actually suggested rape in the past as a mental break, but yeah, people weren't comfortable.

Their not supposed to be comfortable with it, that's kind of the point of including it.

which is why I'm suggesting we DON'T add more, or if we do, go all out and accept there will be fucked up stuff. Half assing deeper elements of sexuality is just stupid imo

Then I would suggest that you change from opposition to the support of fully realistic implementation.

And yeah, there's been a few threads but active ones, before alpha 13 as well...I just don't want to head down that slippery slope.

Slippery slope is a logical fallacy and such arguments can and should be discarded.

I mean transsexuality is "as bad",  in that murphys law which is pretty much a storyteller in rimworld, will ensure both cause immense problems with colonies. Imagine everything that can go wrong with those. 

I see this as reason to include it not exclude it.

Now throw in a boomrat exploding from dying of internal bleeding while simultaneously setting a guys wang on fire ... Actually that would be absolutely hilarious.

This is something on which we agree 

Such gritty details would also potentially impact sales, Cannibalism is far enough removed from civilized socities real life unpleasantness that it's not likely to traumatize or offend someone by being in the game,

This is the problem with modern society, can't do this, can't say that you might offend someone or hurt their precious feeling, I'd tell them what my brother told me, drink a cup of concrete and harden the fuck up.

Case in point my cousin was abused by her step father when she between 11-14  she's now in her early twenty and she tried to play that card with me and it didn't work, ten years is sufficient time to deal with it and harden up.

adding something like rape from a colonist having a mental break could/would likely upset quite a few people, and it would also likely cause all sorts of bad publicity for the game.

No such thing as bad publicity and free publicity is the best kind.

(Similar to how Mass Effects same sex romance plot with Lira Tsoni got it (mis) labeled a "lesbian sex simulator" by the media.)

And that hurt Mass Effects sale so much. 

Zoophile/Trans/asexual/robot lover/etc I don't see adding enough additional depth to the relationship aspect of the game to be worth the time for Tynan to code in given there's so many other neat stuff he could add. (like being able to land on a new planet with your built ship & stored resources for example/)

You want to have a new game + but I don't want that, what I do want is a massively in-depth personality system for pawns and sexuality of all kinds plays into that.

And like I said in another similar thread, there will no doubt be mods to add in zoophila/trans/planto-philes and whatever other sexual orientation/interest people think is needed; and probably a mod to remove the gay/lesbian/bi traits entirely for those who just want a straight colony.

Saying "it can be modded in" is not a good or valid argument in my opinion.

As a transgender woman, I would requrest you to refrain from adding trans with the likes zoophilia. Zoophilia is a paraphilia, not a sexual orientation, and is highly frowned upon.

I'm sure that people who identify as zoosexual would disagree with that, the question is if you can discount these peoples opinions of themselves and that ok is it not also ok for other to disagree with your opinion about intersexuality?

While this does come close to being a slippery slope fallacy it is relevant when a group of people that want to be accepted "discriminate" against another group that also want to be accepted.

As for it being frowned upon, it is legal in multiple states of America to have sex with farm animals so...

Zoophilia is beastiality and beastiality is always rape because animals are incapable of consenting.

Something Zoosexuals would disagree with and that I actually agree with them on, ever had a dog hump your like with its "red rocket" out? because that make a damn good case for consent and once you accept the principal that consent is possible the entire subject must be considered fairly.

On the other hand, transgender is an identity where a persons gender identity doesn't match their biological sex. They are in no way related and  its quite frankly insulting to see them next to each other in the same sentence. I'm not saying you intended to insult, but as a trans person it came off that way.

Some people see trangender as a mental illness and nothing more, if you discount Zoosexuals because of personal distaste then you are engaging in the same mentality of those whom would "fix" the mind of transgenders and homosexuals, if you want to be treated equally then first you must be willing to give it to others.

I don't know about this ever being implemented in vanilla. It would be super sweet if it was. More representation of minorities is great, especially mine. It takes some more dev time, but I feel like it would be worth it. Definitely would recommend this game more to my trans buddies if trans people were included in vanilla.

I always find it funny when a group sees themselves as a minority to be accepted but not that other group, their just freaks. 

The reason I compare the 2 is they both present very real risks and problems to the colony.  Not the same risks but risks

That's not a good reason for exclusion imho.

Zoophiles / bestiality (whichever one is an urge for sex with animals) would be risky for hurting / possibly killing animals, mood issues, fights / killing over an assaulted animal, ect, if not the animal violently rejecting the attempt

The interview with zoosexuals I've read seemed to imply that they where in love with their animal and would not hurt them, zoophilia is the fetish zoosexual is the orientation, at least that's how they see it.

I would have my hetrosexual pawns commit infidelity and for the spouse that was cheated on to kill their cheating spouse, after all it make for a good story and what you've said here doesn't seem that different to me.

Transexuals would have a mood debuff, a "need" for hormones, "need" for surgery, which would be a huge financial hardship on the colony. Add onto that health risks, botched surgery risk, infection, social hardship (even if indistinguishable, there are men who can, and will reject even the most passable transsexual woman on the basis of them being transsexual and not a born girl, and getting a truly passable downstairs bit is incredibly difficult, maybe impossible with current techniques) instability emotionally during transition (its called the second puberty after all) and other issues I'm probably forgetting.

All of which sounds like a ways to add more challenges to a colony and for some interesting stories.

I'm gonna be completely honest here and say fuck no. You aren't the one to judge which games we are allowed to be in.

If he was/os a game dev then he is, at least in game he dev's.

And I rather Rimworld stay that way and not include those kinds of real life struggles trans+ people face right now.

You wouldn't but I would, its relative, and yes I know I'm an inconsiderate asshole

The struggles in Rimworld are about survival, not gender identity, gender, race, and orientation. They challenge the player to use the pawns and all the traits and quirks they have with them to survive, thrive, and escape.

Part of surviving in any group is ensuring that people actually work together rather then tearing themselves, this is why I want social issues and a justice/law system to be included.

An old black woman with cataracts, a white teenage boy who is neurotic, and an asian man who is a great shooter but is afraid of fire. These characters from different background all fit in well into the survival story of Rimworld, and I can't see why a trans man who came from a mining colony and was too poor to transition can't fit into this ragtag group as well.

I can, one of them is an old testament bible thumper who views the trans as sinful regardless of evidence or other concerns.



Well that took forever... I don't think I'll do so much at once again, I ended up going on a tangent.

[mumblemumble]

Oh boy, great.....

Directed at jester (cannot be arsed to quote EVERYTHING) and I also wrote as I read, so bare with it.

You could maybe make the argument for gay, les, but viewing as the purpose of sexuality by evolution is procreation, these things are a bit abnormal. Not saying these are evil, But they are, and you insisting that its not is trying to insist that everything is normal. As for trans, that is desiring self mutilation which in itself is DEEPLY abnormal, so under standard evolutionary points, these are not normal, the fact they are an extreme minority also displays this.

The idea of someone being born that way is bs. There is absolutely no proof of a "gay" gene, and sexuality has been proven countless times to be flexible through events. A girl who is raped and abused can become lesbian due to her strong distrust towards males afterwards, to the point the normal sex drive and attraction to males simply cannot function well, and she will vent affection and need for touch on a suitable replacement, because trying to do so with males can cause panic reminding her of the rape.

I honestly think that whole brain scan stuff is bullshit. Chicken or the egg argument, brain scans can change from someone putting tits in a straight mans face because he gets aroused and that shows. Brain scans are not "this is how their brain was born", not remotely, they represent a snapshot of how people are thinking. Culture, society, upbringing, and what they are experiencing in that moment DO determine neural mechanisms, as do drug intakes.

See above post

See above post

See abo- actually yeah, since lesbians are sexually attracted to women, and butch ones act more men like, this makes sense. But still, doesn't mean they were born that way, just that the patterns of "attacted to x, acting like y" are similar"

Good, hope tynan adds faiths.

Depends what you view as hate crimes, and the results of both. If a guy gets socially beat up and recovers, compared to a dog dying and a colonist losing shit and killing the person who did it? yeah, I think its worse. Also depends on the value of the colonist of course. Its really hard to say since everything in rimworld is situational as fuck.

You said it would be interesting, with beleifs, yet aren't you saying LGBT people in game shouldn't be discriminated against?  That wouldn't be remotely fair or realistic to say, include christianity, or islam and expect gay or ESPECIALLY trans people to be accepted, you know this right? especially in the middle east, trans people are targeted and abused. Plus, as I've said before, I have no problem them being added IF, all the hardships of abuse, being shunned socially, getting attacked, discrimination, and all that was included.

I was talking on a basis STRICTLY of benefit to the colony stability, NOT "amusement". You can't tell me a transexual who gets on some peoples nerves, spends hundreds of  silver a month on hormones, and wants surgery would be more useful than a normal guy with same stats across the board, right? No,  because one is demanding a bunch of things, one isn't.

K, yeah, I agree Tynan gets the last say, but I also say wanting raids on other places is more popular a want than LGBT stuff. Even if you disagree, its still the popular opinion those who REALLY want more LGBT stuff seem to be an extremely vocal minority.

My problem is wasting time coding JUST because an obscure person wants to be "included".  It would provide very little to GAMEPLAY (read: not emergent story, those can be interpreted a million different ways, and you could argue someone dying from plague and dying from malaria are different stories) to the mix, and just add more negative (read : difficult to manage) traits to the mix, all because a vocal minority is demanding it. Its simply not worth the coding for an obscure case, just as I suggested ty keep animals from eating dead masters, he told me that "small, obscure hyper specific AI generally isn't a necessary when its only seen in an extremely small amount of cases". Programming in monthly hormone injections, super complex social transformations, ect, stigma, would take a long time, for a person we might never really get a chance to see.

Thats nice, still doubt a bladder system will be needed, especially considering theres no water system yet. Plus bladder system means more micromanagement for no reason, which ty doesn't take lightly.

Cool, I can finally agree....If added this way, and an LGBT colonist gets killed at some point, or frequently abused, or just socially shunned / disowned by parents, don't come back complaining.

Are you suggesting zoophiles inheriently would have high animal stats? What if they don't have a bonded animal? Would they agree to never persue tail because "they aren't mine"? These questions need to be answered. And I think having an animal always cool with it / having it only be if tames is a little optimistic. Certainly if there's was a whole farms worth, temptation would be there.

Difference is one would be, in that moment, responsible for assault. I guess this could apply to gays as well if gay people had a slim chance to try to force straight people if there were no other gays, but this would quickly end with a firing squad. Yeah, that would be dark, but it happens in real life.

Again, I'm fine them being added IF they were added with all the risks / problems that they really have (depression, anger, social problems, shunned by family, expensive hormone treatment, possibility of being warped / killed / infected by surgery, depression / suicide risk AFTER surgery ect) but I know if that stuff would be added, rimworld WOULD be taking fire for it. So no, its not worth it. Would be a kick ass mod though, and modders are more politically immune than actually developers.

Agreed, justice system would be great, especially if "frontier" justice, not always done by any "book", but judged by the community.

Agreed, but, adding such stuff WOULD make rimworld a bit less popular because some people would reject the game on the basis of people could be raped.

Slippery slope is not always a fallacy, if there is proof of trends reasons to believe, and risk of provoking a chain reaction, its reasonable. IE if you kill a prisoner in the city who people are spouting that its "racist", and are threatening to riot, you might have a riot, followed by racial tensions. This isn't a fallacy, this is a prediction of events, not always can it be "proven" but its a prediction. You can question the validity of the prediction, but that doesn't mean its instantly discarded, as my prediction for THESE threads, so far, have been spot on.

As I said, if YOU are ok with trans abuse, exclusion, excommunication, fights, ect ect, cool, but again, its risky to rim-world to add it as other people WILL FLIP, like carly (not you lady wolf =P), I'm sure if they were added, she would be extremely upset, possibly campaign against the game. Again, this is only a prediction, but she has said as much already.

Hahah, yes, an artwork piece on it would be even better...imagine the thread which draws art, drawing that...my god.

While I agree, society should harden, I'm not a fool in thinking just because some ( a lot) of people are way too sensitive about hurt feelings , I know they also might still try to muck stuff up because of it. Question is, do we want rimworld to be an awesome game, or a possible martyr for anti censorship? This said, for your cousin, its not "just" time, but mental processes to go through to fix the damage, and this isn't always dealt with in x amount of time. A person in great mental health can overcome rape in a day, while a person can be damaged for years.

Actually, good point, and rimworld is a niche game....maybe we should let tumbler get outraged over stuff? But hey, tynans choice not mine.

Mass effect was massively over-rated IMO.

This is an issue with rimworld, we all have ideas of what rimworld "should be" some think it should be a survival sims, some think it should be a more personally deep command and conquer, some think it should be a base builder primarily....and none of us are right or wrong, tynan at the end of the day is the owner, and chooses how the game evolves.

I think modding argument is good IF the things added are obscure, add little to gameplay, and adding deeper framework to the maingame would be more beneficial. Think of it this way, if raids and location visiting was added, we could have bars / strip clubs we could potentially travel to, because the framework would be there for mods.

Hah, drama between certain eccentric people disliking other eccentric people. Funny stuff. The fact carly gets offended instead of realizing the similarities says a lot. And again, slippery slope is hugely mis-interpeted. If Carly is going to reject zoophiles, while demanding inclusion, it IS fair for zoophiles, and others to reject her for being trans. Equality means getting same opportunities, same punishments, same bullshit, and same chance at being judged for who you are. Saying we can call zoophiles "stinking dog assaulters" or something silly, but at the same time demanding nobody even bring up people being trans in a negative light is incredibly unequal. For the record, not calling any zoophiles that, just making a point.

I also agree zoophilia isn't always rape. Especially if a male dog mounts, that is all the dogs choice. Granted its hard to tell without verbal communication, but consent does not boil down to "if they said yes" but, "was the other person ok with it". I had sex countless times with my ex where we just jumped in the sack and had at it without a word, this wasn't rape because she obviously was ok with it. And actually, sex without verbal communication is far more enjoyable imo =) spontaneous is awesome.

Agreed, equality across the board of inclusion AND ability to be criticized is important. And yes, many, MANY people including those who have felt gender dysphoria (myself) view it as a mental illness, which people prevent even the bare minimum of discussion from happening. So even if people want to examine it, point out correlations to abuse, theories supported by evidence showing their case, they are often persecuted for even saying it.

Ditto.... This is why I view all sexual things as having a causation, and look at it as the merits of harm done, benefits, risks, and the whys / hows involved. For the record I find zoophilia more tolerable than transexuality, simply because I know the mental health mess behind it, mass suicide often done by post op transexuals, ect. But zoophilia people seem on average quite more stable.

Yeah, I guess it not a good risk for exclusion, but again, people being offended / throwing a fit... Plus really representing them in all the depth would be sooooooooooooooo much work.

I agree, and speaking to someone else on here who was a zoophile recently definitely was enlightening and they seem like a cool person, BUT, negative people in the same orientation also exist. There are straight people who are caring lovers, and straight people who are fucked up abusive people. There are gay people who lead good lives, and gay people who are "bug chasers" or have a thing for getting with straight guys by whatever means are available, including date rape... there are zoophiles who care for animals, and those that are torturous to them...I think we should represent the full spectrum, perhaps with  the sadism trait.

Again, I agree, but would provoke people... Already covered several times in this post, its a risk, a dice roll if its worth it.

Yep, tynan gets the final say, no matter what any of us think or do.

Lol. But yes I agree, if I can be brought to tears because a man gets dumped after having body parts blown off because hes now disfigured before dying of infection because it emotionally hurt me, why should other people have their emotions guarded? If you are that scared of emotional pain, don't play the game.

yep, people already fight over being drug addicts / purists, lazy / hardworking, so I don't see why trans people shouldn't have the same for normal people

I would say one could also be non religious and disagree with the reason, calling it a mental illness, but the point is the same, yes, personalities and thoughts will clash, even more so if people refuse to listen to opinions of others, which those in that type of person rarely seem to do... My guess is because of cognitive dissonance, which seems very profound with them.

yep, very long post and response, but I love the community all the more for it. Even though I disagree with jester on some bits, I love the fact we can have an argument and not wage war from it =)

As for you pickle, its difficult because the umbrella term transsexual covers sooooooooooooo much. It covers hermaphrodites, inferiority complex situations causing those to have issues with their gender, hormonal imbalances, chemical issues, ect ect... But again, medical field refuses to look into the "whys" of these, and questioning into it is sometimes even met with violence, so yeah. I would be interested to know if you, perhaps, you were born with "internal" female (or male) parts which what caused it, this happens occasionally, I've heard cases of outwardly boys almost dying because menstruation internally had nowhere to vent out, causing toxin build up. But if you had that, it would make you feel different than one with an inferiority complex.

[DFKabuto]

I think I may have just gotten stupider for having read that.

[Mikhail Reign]

the LGTG community wants equality give up the Gay Pride Parade we don't get the straight pride parade why should you get a parade for your sexuality when we don't?

Because there really isn't a thing such as Straight bashing?

[mumblemumble]

the LGTG community wants equality give up the Gay Pride Parade we don't get the straight pride parade why should you get a parade for your sexuality when we don't?

Because there really isn't a thing such as Straight bashing?

Around militant, man-hatting lesbians there is... Or gays for that matter.

And point is, equality shouldn't be "gays shouldn't ever be disadvantaged", but "gay people should have the equal opportunity to succeed AND fuck up as a straight person". And there is a valid point in the pride parade thing : Its not fair to have a gay parade, but ban a straight parade, nor have gay bars, and ban straight bars.

Things shouln't try to "compensate" on perceived issues, this in itself causes many problems. Saying x party gets a free handout / advantage because they are "disadvantaged" causes a lot of bureaucracy and problems, Instead, let all parties get an EQUAL shot. Don't let "Disadvantaged" folks get a unique advantage on others unless its something very clear cut, like those in poverty or disability accommodation for. Something like giving women or minorities jobs they cannot do, paid the same amount as a guy who can, or giving a minority special treatment because they come from a "disadvantaged" background are very bad for society, as they cause more problems than they fix. The girl in the job raises costs substantially for the business in question by needing to get other workers around JUST to do the things she cannot, and giving special treatment generally means there will be far more who take advantage of it because they can, not necessarily because they need it.

[Mikhail Reign]

the LGTG community wants equality give up the Gay Pride Parade we don't get the straight pride parade why should you get a parade for your sexuality when we don't?

Because there really isn't a thing such as Straight bashing?

Around militant, man-hatting lesbians there is... Or gays for that matter.

And point is, equality shouldn't be "gays shouldn't ever be disadvantaged", but "gay people should have the equal opportunity to succeed AND fuck up as a straight person". And there is a valid point in the pride parade thing : Its not fair to have a gay parade, but ban a straight parade, nor have gay bars, and ban straight bars.

Well a quick google on straight bashing brought up 5 news articles for straight people attacked and killed for being straight. Doing the same for gay people depressed the fuck out of me after the 12th page. Given that they represent about 4% of the population you can see that it is skewed. As for the bar thing, they represent 4% of the population, so yeah they probably need places specifically for them so that they can even find each other for socialization. Every other bar is a straight bar. No body cares that their are Goth clubs and saying 'oh why are there mainstream clubs' because they are able to grasp the fact that every other club is a mainstream club.

Jesus dude... I'm not even going to respond to you anymore. Every post of yours just seems like a troll.....