Alternatives to killboxing

[rtiger]

:Rant incoming:
As things stand in terms of protecting your colonists, you either let the turrets handle enemies, or you send out colonists to defend your base....

Except sending your colonists out is usually a bad idea. The raiders often are better equipped then your colonists, and outnumber them. In addition, some colonists can't fight at all. Especially in the early game, losing just a single colonist can land you in a very bad spot, as it is nigh impossible to run everything you need to do with less then three people without serious micromanaging. Generally you at least have:

A dedicated grower to keep your farms maintained.
A dedicated hauler, so all that food you just harvested doesn't go to waste.
A dedicated chef, doing nothing but cooking all day.
A dedicated scientist to get all the research done.
A dedicated doctor so you have a reasonable chance you succeed in medical tasks.

Without these five roles filled, the basic functions of a colony become rather limited. Losing any one of these colonists is a severe blow, especially to an early colony. Even past that, there is no way for you to easily train someone to be better in combat except in combat. A single assassin, with a sniper rifle, is the one raider I always dread seeing and is generally impossible for a colonist to take out on their own, and even if you do, your likely taking losses to do so.

Turrets are weak, can easily be out ranged by any sort of rifle, and can easily be destroyed by an enemy carrying grenades. Fighting out in the open, behind sandbags, is pointless if your out ranged. The personal shields are a good step forward, making melee a viable option. The mortars, not so much. Especially with the latest patch, mortars needing shells which require steel, which is generally in short supply anyway, they are expensive to use consistently for defense cause of very low accuracy.

Every colonist is valuable, and rarely well trained/equipped for combat, so tell me. Exactly what reason do we have not to use killboxes Tynan? What other ways do we have to protect our colonists without such high risk?

[lusername]

There aren't really too many alternatives to killboxes and other chokepoint entrance structures, because building a 360-degree defense is prohibitively expense in both resources and energy, and using colonists to defend is basically impossible because attacks occur instantly with zero warning, so defenses must be fully manned and fully operational at all times, which we presently do not have the numbers to do and do not have the UI features to work without it being a massively tedious micromanagement chore. Besides, manned killboxes are still killboxes.

On top of that, your enemies have infinite soldiers while none of yours can be replaced. You pretty much HAVE to fight extremely cheaply.

[PastXight]

Every colonist is valuable, and rarely well trained/equipped for combat, so tell me. Exactly what reason do we have not to use killboxes Tynan? What other ways do we have to protect our colonists without such high risk?

I don't use kill boxes and I do pretty well without it. And training colonist for combat isn't hard either,  and it's also not that hard to get colonist well equipped once they are trained.

Are you playing the game wrong?

User was warned for this post - large quotation, borderline insulting. Post edited.

[lusername]

So what are you using? If you're burrowing yourself into some kind of chokepoint, that's still basically a killbox. And sure, it might not be HARD to train a colonist for combat, but's...not something that is normal.

[SSS]

I don't like killboxes; never have. I also like building colonies that are mostly on the surface. That tends to push me into lower difficulties. I usually use a combination of mountain cover on one or two sides (providing a "backbone" or "anchor" that I can trust to be safe), stone walls for the other sides, and turrets all over. I actually tend to focus more defenses on the inside of the base, since something's probably gone wrong if they break through the walls and turrets outside.

It takes a long time to build, but the walls are one of my biggest early priorities, so it comes up soon enough to be useful for repelling attacks which would be more difficult otherwise. Sadly, this is still more or less a form of turtling, even if I do send out colonists for mining and such quite often.

One of these days I'd like to split the entire map into sectors, each with defenses. Being able to squash a raid before it even comes close to the actual core colony is quite gratifying.

Oh yeah, kinda random, but don't sell any rocket launchers you get, particularly triple rocket launchers. Those things are -awesome-.

[BetaSpectre]

IMO unless we make all raids either drops, or sieges kill boxes will be the main defense. And unless AI was made to avoid it we'll always have em.

IMO kill boxes are just something you can't entirely fix as long as you have ground based raids.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be things to try to mitigate the killbox ruining immersion. However, if the raids were all "easy" there would be no need for kill boxes.

[b0rsuk]

I'm afraid each colony naturally evolves into killboxes. Maybe the situation will change once raiders become smart enough to attack walls, who knows. But as it is,
1) It is best to limit the number of ways the enemy can come to you using walls. 1 entrance, 2 entrances, or 4 entrances - it doesn't matter that much.
2) When you have a limited number of entrances, it comes naturally to build turrets behind them.

You still want some turrets spread around the interior of your base against drops, but not much as drops are smaller. To be sure you don't need to build a killbox to get all your colonists off the planet, but things get ugly after that.

I would like some changes in Rimworld:

All colonists except empaths and blind people should be able to shoot, even if it's 0 Shooting with no passion.

The number of raiders should be proportional to your colony size. It grows too rapidly.

Tribes could keep their huge number but have a new mechanic: they retreat once you kill their chief.

Turrets that don't use power but need to be manned would be a step in the right direction. This includes things like guard towers.

Mortars should be useful for player. I mean, there are drops and raids which don't wait before attack, these would still be mostly uharmed by mortars.

One-time explosives, like mortar shells but detonated manually or by proximity would be nice. You could set ambushes outside your base.

If pawns were unable to see things behind them, it would be possible to sneak and flank raiders. In one of my games there were dudes outranging my turrets, so I snuck a brave man to take them from behind with a plasteel knife. Naturally, they immediately turned around and shot them. This shouldn't happen. But as long as pawns see everything in all directions, it will.

[Kaballah]

I don't really get this, I play the game on Cassandra/Max and I don't feel compelled to build a kill box.  You have all the rock chunks and solid cover to use, it's not really super hard to beat any of the vanilla attackers except the "BOOM MECHANOIDS LAND AT YOUR ENTRANCE GAME OVER" event.

[XelNigma]

Here is an old topic that taught me a lot.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=3310.0

I never use kill boxes, and honestly I rarely use turrets. The only time I lose a pawn is if I'm negligent and dont have them retreat to cover when I should.  I'v modified the strategy to build my base in a grid while being offset at the edge to prevent raiders from sniping in.  I can safely build out in the center of an open flat map being able to protect my base from any direction.

You dont need killboxes and the game is much funner if you dont use them.

[lusername]

IMO unless we make all raids either drops, or sieges kill boxes will be the main defense. And unless AI was made to avoid it we'll always have em.

Drops are *WHY* you NEED killboxes. Otherwise, all of your colonists would instantly die because it would be impossible to defend as the shooting begins with zero notice. Even without, you'd still need killboxes, simply because you are outnumbered and can afford close to zero losses, while they have infinite men and can throw as many into the grinder as they please.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be things to try to mitigate the killbox ruining immersion. However, if the raids were all "easy" there would be no need for kill boxes.

Killboxes don't ruin immersion. Killboxes are historical. Ever see the design of a castle? It's basically just one killbox after another.

I never use kill boxes, and honestly I rarely use turrets. The only time I lose a pawn is if I'm negligent and dont have them retreat to cover when I should.  I'v modified the strategy to build my base in a grid while being offset at the edge to prevent raiders from sniping in.  I can safely build out in the center of an open flat map being able to protect my base from any direction.

A: That looks suspiciously like a killbox. You've channeled your opposition into several narrow approaches and then shot them.
B: Many of those colonists look like they've been shot. This is not a sustainable situation because those shots will quickly become fatal. And remember: They have infinite men, whereas you can't afford any losses.
C: The defense only works if all of those guys are standing in those exact positions all the time. However, since many raids give zero warning, with enemies just immediately arriving at your trade beacon and shooting immediately, unless you have a large garrison standing in rotating guard shifts, you instantly die the moment this happens.

You have all the rock chunks and solid cover to use, it's not really super hard to beat any of the vanilla attackers

Well, at least until the attackers start to A: Outrange you, and B: Vastly outnumber you. Remember, in the open, you're going to get to fire maybe one or two shots before the attackers are on your face. You're going to need some kind of structure to prevent this, because colonists are unwilling to simply spray fire to suppress an area without bothering to aim at it.

except the "BOOM MECHANOIDS LAND AT YOUR ENTRANCE GAME OVER" event.

And yeah, as you see, that always happens eventually. SOMETHING eventually lands on your doorstep with zero entrance, and for you, this is a game over. Well constructed killzones DON'T HAVE THIS PROBLEM. Nobody cares about how you solved the easy problems, the hard problems are what is important in the end. Sure, it's perfectly possible to solve most of the other kinds of raids without some kind of killzone, but none of that matters: It's how the system fails that matters. If the system fails, it's worthless.

[Stan-K]

Killboxes will make defending easier, but they are not needed. A completely open plan base can be defended with colonists only, and I am currently playing this on Cassandra extreme. (http://imgur.com/hRr7z6B)

A base will give you plenty of cover (http://imgur.com/BYAX1vY). And while the enemy is still approaching, they're exposed. Once their numbers are too many, and when they take cover behind trees, and chunks, you can reposition a bit further into the base (http://imgur.com/vAyapON, and
http://imgur.com/JYTGTJL). The enemy will need to approach, leaving cover and find a new spot. This will also split their long range guys from the short range ones. Once the enemy is in the base, you have full advantage. Yes, corners will provide cover for the enemy, but only your colonist can use doors efficiently. Move through a room, pop out the door, shoot them in the back, close the door again.

A few notes
- When they out-range you, retreating in the base solves all your problems.
- This will work for mechanoids as well, these do not seem to cope well with close corner combat.
- Having a 0-3 shooting skill colonist means they'll be a hunter equipped with a shoddy pistol for a few days. That will get basic shooting skills quickly, and most gain for short range is in the first shooting points.
- Drop pods can be dealt with in the same way, and the few seconds you have for the enemy to exist their pods is enough to get colonists out of direct danger.
- Damage to walls and colonists is inevitable, make sure to capture/recruit more enough new ones, and prepare to invest in bionics.
- Yes, this strategy can fail too (http://imgur.com/qxrsJkm)

[Turps]

I don't use a kill box. Done it a few times and gets boring soon enough. I use well sort of a kill paddock lols. Yeah ye wanna know which direction they are coming from and I do use turrets but try to limit the numbers. Ya soon see weak spots and its fun to fix it or try new ways. Remove their cover and always have a fall back defence fer when it gets to hot. Most! of the time the colony lives. Having a loose defence also brings on heroics when one of ur favourites goes down for the count and needs a daring rescue. Getting your colony minced can hurt cuz of time invested. But can also be very rewarding surviving that and rebuilding it back to being mighty.
Having a killbox can get you through the game with out losing anyone. But getting through it with out a kill box creates epic events n dramas which equal epic stories.
Having said that...heh late late! game the paddock does change a bit to what some would call a killbox maybe? Cuz ur filthly stinking rich and they throw just epic numbers at you.
Try different ways on lower setting maybe and get a taste for it. I play on Cassandra serious challenge I think its called? the 2nd highest level.

Ultimately you need a good doctor 

[lusername]

As you can see from the dramatic failures involved in the alternatives, they don't work very well.

Honestly, the only alternative I've seen to the killbox is the logic bomb defense, which works by confusing the enemy AI into going in circles until they all pass out or go insane. This is, obviously, not a stable method of defending the base as it relies on the AI not getting changed to not fall for this.

But honestly, I'm not seeing anything intrinsically wrong with killboxes. This is how defenses work in real life, too. Ever look at a medieval castle? If you're fighting guys who do not have siege equipment, this is exactly how defenses work in real life. Heck, my defense for my base is basically a piece of a star fort, a real life killbox.

[SpaceDorf]

There is always the possibility of a completely walled in base.

[b0rsuk]

For people who don't use turrets at all, I don't understand where do you find all these colonists who can shoot at all. Do you just leave everyone else to die ?

As for medieval castles, the best way to fight them is to ignore them, and go for the soft, painful spots instead. You can't build a castle big enough to shelter your fields or trade routes. I'm not even talking about siege and taking defenders by hunger, but rather destroying things not protected by the castle. Sow salt on fields, burn villages, take people into slavery.