I can smith 2400 silver into a 28800 silver value sword with my lvl 19 crafting guy, after selling the sword it comes out to over 10k profit per day (he makes about a sword a day). can't wait to get my hands on 2400 gold *drools*
ah interesting, I just mined out a nice chunk of gold and sold it for silver, was contemplating on what to do with it but you have a great idea their. Quick problem though who do you sell it to? I have found most vendors do not carry that much money. How much silver does your vendors tend to have?
He probably sold it to an exotic goods trader and bought everything they had on board.
Also, amazingly enough, I've seen poor golden art pieces go for 80k silver. Now, only if I could mine enough gold to make one...
... and not sell it because there aren't any traders that actually carry enough silver to buy it.
#secondyearcolonyproblems
Quote from: tommonius on December 14, 2014, 07:26:36 PM
ah interesting, I just mined out a nice chunk of gold and sold it for silver, was contemplating on what to do with it but you have a great idea their. Quick problem though who do you sell it to? I have found most vendors do not carry that much money. How much silver does your vendors tend to have?
yea, this tends to be the limit when selling a single item with a very hefty price tag.
it's so much easier and more flexible to sell large quantities of cheap stuff you got from killing people (more enjoyable too) than crafting a single expensive item.. coz of the amount of silver and items for trade a trader brings you could potentially end up at a loss instead of a profit. (if they didn't bring enough silver or good items to trade)
you can do both of course. sell cheap stuff and expensive crafted stuff. (killing people and taking their stuff just seemed more enjoyable) ;D
note that swords can only be sold to weapon dealers, which means about 2-3k silver and some weapons and tools, what I usually do is sell my sword, take all their money and anything else necessary to get the trade done, then sell that other stuff to other traders. I've started to move to artwork, as it can be sold to exotic goods traders, making it possible to sell silver artwork of high quality and buy tonnes of gold, which everyone loves buying from you with their precious silver (MY PRECIOUS, DON'T TAKES MY PRESIOUS FROM ME!!!)
Quote from: woolfoma on December 14, 2014, 06:01:53 PM
I can smith 2400 silver into a 28800 silver value sword with my lvl 19 crafting guy, after selling the sword it comes out to over 10k profit per day (he makes about a sword a day). can't wait to get my hands on 2400 gold *drools*
gold items are not as profitable as silver, stick with that.
Wooden swords are also a great value, 120 wood = well over 600 silver with only level 10 crafting. Great way to level up smithing too.
I think we need a better way to assign certain workbenches or bills to their own colonist. I want to train up one crafter on stone blocks or wooden swords while my best crafter gets to make the statues and silver stuff.
I know, you can micro it already but that will become tiresome soon. If you could assign a bill to a colonist, that would be awesome!
Hmmm, very interesting. A pop idol wandered in my colony and (social 15, art 15) and I have been able to buy a crafting neurotrainer in order to transform another colonist into a lvl 15 crafter.
So far, I have been making them create steel sword, woodeen spears and random art, but it might be wiser to put that gold and silver to good use.
Quote from: Col_Jessep on December 15, 2014, 04:13:13 AM
I think we need a better way to assign certain workbenches or bills to their own colonist. I want to train up one crafter on stone blocks or wooden swords while my best crafter gets to make the statues and silver stuff.
I know, you can micro it already but that will become tiresome soon. If you could assign a bill to a colonist, that would be awesome!
I feel the same way. Actually, I fear that some of the game systems are starting to stop scaling with the game complexity ( crafting and hauling in particular) and that it might be time to go back to the drawing board and redesign some of these systems from the grounds up.
Quote from: Teovald on December 15, 2014, 04:44:16 AM
Hmmm, very interesting. A pop idol wandered in my colony and (social 15, art 15) and I have been able to buy a crafting neurotrainer in order to transform another colonist into a lvl 15 crafter.
So far, I have been making them create steel sword, woodeen spears and random art, but it might be wiser to put that gold and silver to good use.
Quote from: Col_Jessep on December 15, 2014, 04:13:13 AM
I think we need a better way to assign certain workbenches or bills to their own colonist. I want to train up one crafter on stone blocks or wooden swords while my best crafter gets to make the statues and silver stuff.
I know, you can micro it already but that will become tiresome soon. If you could assign a bill to a colonist, that would be awesome!
I feel the same way. Actually, I fear that some of the game systems are starting to stop scaling with the game complexity ( crafting and hauling in particular) and that it might be time to go back to the drawing board and redesign some of these systems from the grounds up.
Yea I get what you mean, a former raider took a wound to the head and is slow and somewhat braindamaged but decent at crafting but he always seems to teeter on mental breakdowns probably because it takes so long for him to walk to food or his bed.
But every time I try to start burning bodies he goes to operate the Crematorium he abandons making those Parkas I need crafting for winter and I have to micromanage the ever loving crap out of him to avoid him going insane.
on the gold and silver topic I had no idea silver was worth more than gold, I think I need to get a few people crafting some melee weapons and then abuse selling high quality items and buy out all the traders stock then flog it back to another seller if I need to.
These valuations are actually in 'it's a bug' territory, so don't expect them to last to the next alpha :p
I'm curious as to how you guys would suggest fixing this. I sense two separate issues:
1. Art and crafts can become too valuable. The base value of a gold sculpture 40,000. The quality modifier can add insane amounts of value, because it multiplies the entire base value of the item, while not really costing anything to obtain if you have a good crafter.
How to solve?
-Make quality modifier an offset instead of a multiplier. So instead of being x2 it's more like +1000. But how does that work for low-value items like shivs?
-Reduce multipliers a lot. Problem: now it�s quite affordable to buy legendary weapons etc.
-Do a post-pass on prices traders will buy at; if an item is really expensive, we aggressively curve the price down. So player can never make a giant amount of money selling a single mega-item (though buying them will still cost insane amounts).
2. Wood swords are worth too much, just because they take a long time to craft (since crafting time adds value all by itself), even though they�re kind of useless.
How to solve?
-???
Anyone have any thoughts on either of these?
Quote from: Tynan on December 15, 2014, 11:47:16 PM
I'm curious as to how you guys would suggest fixing this. I sense two separate issues:
1. Art and crafts can become too valuable. The base value of a gold sculpture 40,000. The quality modifier can add insane amounts of value, because it multiplies the entire base value of the item, while not really costing anything to obtain if you have a good crafter.
How to solve?
-Make quality modifier an offset.
-Reduce multipliers a lot. Problem: now it�s quite affordable to buy legendary weapons etc.
-Do a post-pass on prices traders will buy at; if an item is really expensive, we aggressively curve the price down. So player can never make a giant amount of money selling a single mega-item (though buying them will still cost insane amounts).
Anyone have any thoughts on either of these?
I can attest to this issue. I have a gold sculpture literally worth $180K sitting in my base. It's considered masterwork with a beauty of 3540. As much as I'd love to sell it and make bank, $180K is absolutely ridiculous. This was a lvl 20 crafter's first attempt at gold and he made an item worth so much. If I /could/ sell it, I would be able to afford a few years worth. In regards to your points.
1. Would def need to see the pros and cons of this option.
2. This could work. Tbh, I think we need to see an expansion in terms of production and return. It should not be easy to take high quality ingredients and make decent weapons/stuff so easily. It should honestly be a grind so that it can be profitable in the future. And, if you aren't using guns, it could also mean deciding whether you sell the good for profit or use it to better arm your own. But balancing would definitely be necessary.
3. This might be a little troubling. A good way to scale it would be that certain items (whether it be weapons, art etc) would be easier to mass produce, but even at the highest quality, still only somewhat profitable. But more higher end stuff, stuff that requires more higher quality/rarer resources, should take more time but have much more noticeable profits from it. Quality should still affect the payout, but only by a reasonable amount. That gives the sort of balance where a player might decide "Do I mass produce steel swords and sell them to try to earn a decent return on the next trader or do I try to put as much as I can into a good few gold swords and sell them for a larger profit at the cost of a rarer resource and more time commitment?". I think with this way we might see more "trader based" colonies by players, people trying to make colonists into good crafters and artists to sell off produced goods to pay for other important goods.
Idk, just my .02
Melee weapons, of any material, just shouldn't be worth as much as they are, masterwork or otherwise. That masterwork gold/silver weapons would be fairly easy to obtain
should be offset by relative uselessness as actual weapons. The fact that firearms aren't all that expensive anyway, and that weapons of decent quality can be made by shipwrecked survivors without much effort, should mean that the profitability of manufacturing melee weapons for sale should always remain pretty low.
Quote from: TynanDo a post-pass on prices traders will buy at; if an item is really expensive, we aggressively curve the price down. So player can never make a giant amount of money selling a single mega-item (though buying them will still cost insane amounts)
This makes sense, from an economic perspective: the colony only has a handful of potential traders to sell to, and the traders themselves could only have so many buyers for such crazy items in the first place—I mean, what trade destination is in the market for "masterwork gold abstract sculpture made by shipwrecked colonists", anyway? Since the colony has little other recourse but to sell at the mercy of these wandering space traders, they have to sell for what the traders are willing to take.
hmm.. kinda tough topic, here's my take on it :
-for craftable melee weapons : i think the top tier weapons people can acquire are powerclaw, m24, minigun, or doomsday rocket.. therefore, a sword's price shouldn't exceed the price of those weapons (even if it's a masterwork longsword made in gold) since there's this clear division between a weapon and a work of art in rimworld (iirc, melee weapons don't have beauty, hence they shouldn't be treated as a "work of art") hence, they are treated solely based upon their effectiveness as a weapon.. i assume that gold weapons aren't very effective as a weapon, so plasteel, steel, uranium, or even wood. should probably have higher value than a gold weapon.. (despite gold being a valuable material, it's useless as a weapon)
-same thing with craftable clothes : hyperweave or devilwear stuff probably shouldn't exceed the price of a power armor. (regardless of quality) since the purpose of apparel is mostly for protection and defense from harsh climate. in that regards, power armor is the best. therefore, no other armor/clothes should exceed the price of a power armor.
-as for craftable art : it's value is based on beauty. for this, i don't really mind if it reaches tremendous heights. since there doesn't seem to be other items to compare it on when it comes to effectiveness. a masterwork golden statue is valuable simply coz there's practically nothing else that can beat it based on it's beauty..
price is affected by demand. demand is powered by the ability to purchase. (ie : a priceless item cannot be bought, simply coz there's no one who can afford to buy it). hence the price of an item is subjectively based upon the buyer's ability to purchase and the seller's willingness to sell..
--------------
anyways, the gist is : an item's price should be based upon the "effectiveness" of the item based upon it's item category.
ie :
-is it effective as a weapon? how more effective is it compared to an m24, a minigun, a doomsday rocket, or a powerclaw? then that should be the criteria for it's price.
-is it effective as an armor? how effective is it compared to a power armor? then that should be the criteria for it's price.
-is it effective as an artwork? what's the max a trader can actually buy it for? then that should be the criteria for it's price.
and so on and so forth..
Quote from: Tynan on December 15, 2014, 11:47:16 PM
-Do a post-pass on prices traders will buy at; if an item is really expensive, we aggressively curve the price down. So player can never make a giant amount of money selling a single mega-item (though buying them will still cost insane amounts).
This sounds like it will effectively cap the amount a trader is willing to pay for any particular item. That sounds pretty reasonable.
Quote2. Wood swords are worth too much, just because they take a long time to craft (since crafting time adds value all by itself), even though they�re kind of useless.
I think it might be an idea to disassociate crafting time with the sale price. Wood swords should go pretty cheaply, no matter how long it takes to craft them (although really it shouldn't take that long).
Honestly the entire economic set-up is a bit strange. Crafting has now become a basis for a curious trading based colony when really Aethelric has it quite right - we're crafters on some backwater rimworld; nobody 'out there' should want our crappy stuff. There might be the odd piece of abstract art that would find its way into the halls of some glitterworld dandy as a curiousity piece, but creating a successful industrial base on the production and sale of steel swords to interplanetary traders is a little strange.
It would make more sense to barter (not sell) to other factions on the world map. I could certainly see tribespeople having a use for swords, or art for outlander colonies, and that kind of thing. I've honestly found that traders speed up the game unnecessarily. It's altogether too easy to get power armour, bionic gear, etc by selling off dozens of parkas or the aforementioned useless swords. Switching to a barter-based trading system with other factions, limiting the types of goods which can be sold to traders, and capping the price they're willing to pay for those things would go a long way towards rebalancing the economic system and extending the mid-game out with trading/crafting.
My tuppence, for what it's worth.
Perhaps you could limit the amount of silver the Traders have, the mastercrafted sword may be worth 100,000 but the trader only has like 2000 silver because this is a rimworld and he was expecting to sell not buy.
Well you should keep in mind that the traders you encounter are not interstellar. They'll just be trading with other communities on the planet, or perhaps moons or nearby planets. No glitterworlds will be involved. It's true that you're crafters on some backwater rimworld - and so is everyone else in the economy, including the ship traders.
Trading with factions would be better, but it requires a lot of other work to get that functioning. That's the only reason I haven't done it yet.
You are right that trading is way OP but that's because of all the stuff enemies drop. I'll be solving that separately from this, be mitigating dead raider drops. This question is really just about the player making way too much bank from individual art pieces due to how the price is calculated.
Quote from: Tynan on December 16, 2014, 02:31:28 AM
Well you should keep in mind that the traders you encounter are not interstellar. They'll just be trading with other communities on the planet, or perhaps moons or nearby planets. No glitterworlds will be involved. It's true that you're crafters on some backwater rimworld - and so is everyone else in the economy, including the ship traders.
Oh, okay. I've completely misunderstood what the traders were meant to be then, my bad. I had assumed that they were on some more extravagant route and we just happened to be in the way. If they're more localized then that explains their willingness to purchase and haul some of the stuff that they're carrying.
Indeed.
In fact, it is a bit weird that they're on spaceships. But they're not on starships.
I'd rather they were ground-based, the only reason they're not is because space traders are much easier to implement. Otherwise I'd have them all come by foot.
Quote from: Tynan on December 15, 2014, 11:47:16 PM
I'm curious as to how you guys would suggest fixing this. I sense two separate issues:
1. Art and crafts can become too valuable. The base value of a gold sculpture 40,000. The quality modifier can add insane amounts of value, because it multiplies the entire base value of the item, while not really costing anything to obtain if you have a good crafter.
How to solve?
-Make quality modifier an offset instead of a multiplier. So instead of being x2 it's more like +1000. But how does that work for low-value items like shivs?
-Reduce multipliers a lot. Problem: now it�s quite affordable to buy legendary weapons etc.
-Do a post-pass on prices traders will buy at; if an item is really expensive, we aggressively curve the price down. So player can never make a giant amount of money selling a single mega-item (though buying them will still cost insane amounts).
2. Wood swords are worth too much, just because they take a long time to craft (since crafting time adds value all by itself), even though they�re kind of useless.
How to solve?
-???
Anyone have any thoughts on either of these?
I've noticed that some games sometimes calculate certain values of e.g. weapons based on multiplication of decimals rather than whole numbers. Specifically, a Good Sword might have a X0.50 multiplier on a a base damage value, rather than a X2 multiplier. A Really Good Sword in turn might have a X0.60 multiplier, and so on. Perhaps only a ~Really Legendary Sword~ is worth X5 of the base.
I'm really not a math person by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me that this kind of thing allows for better control of value-ceilings.
Of course, I'm not even sure I've analyzed the problem correctly. (Not a math person.)
If there are things the traders carry which cost insane amounts of money for a singel piece, why shouldn't there be a way to make insane amounts of money with a single piece? If you have a really good crafter and enough gold to make a statue, you're just the boss and may desrve getting really large amounts of money.
But to make this more difficult (I didn't read the whole thread so sorry if this already has been suggested), you could incerease the cost of an item in order to have a certain quality. E.g. if you craft a sculpture with default resources, you wont have very good quality. The better quality you want, the more resources you have to put into it (crafter skill counts too obviously).
As for wood swords beeing too expensive due to crafting time: shorten the crafting time. Why should they need long time to be made anyway?
Quote from: Tynan on December 16, 2014, 02:47:40 AM
-snip-
I'd rather they were ground-based, the only reason they're not is because space traders are much easier to implement. Otherwise I'd have them all come by foot.
I always thought this was an eventual goal. Maybe it's time for this to be implemented? After all, everyone trying to survive on a RimWorld isn't going to fork over $200K for something pretty that doesn't help them stay alive.
Quote from: keylocke on December 16, 2014, 01:54:00 AM
-snip-
price is affected by demand. demand is powered by the ability to purchase. (ie : a priceless item cannot be bought, simply coz there's no one who can afford to buy it). hence the price of an item is subjectively based upon the buyer's ability to purchase and the seller's willingness to sell..
--------------
anyways, the gist is : an item's price should be based upon the "effectiveness" of the item based upon it's item category.
-snip-
Lots of words ahead,
TLDR =
self-limiting economyI really agree with keylocke here. This is a survival game. Effectiveness and demand should be the two driving factors for price. Here's another way to achieve it:
Effectiveness: Everything has a 'base' price. The quality and material of a colony-made item are both set multipliers that affect the base price. The quality multiplier could range from 0.2 (terrible quality) to 1.0 (really good) to 3.0 (legendary) - I'm thinking pseudo-exponential, but not ridiculously so. (Made up numbers for illustration only.) The material modifier is unique for the item category (melee weapon, or artwork, etc). A gold work of art will increase the value, while a gold melee weapon would have decreased value. Players have to figure out what makes sense and what doesn't.
Demand: The game could track a 'world economy' in the background. What's initally 'common' or 'rare' etc could be based on the world seed. The economy system just tracks the number of each category of item. The more there are in existence, the more likely a trader carriers it and the more of it they have. The less common ones are carried in fewer numbers by fewer traders. Everything the player sells, buys, and consumes affects this economy. Longswords may be rare (and valuable) initially, but after selling a dozen or so, everyone has one and no one wants them anymore. The demand multiplier could be a simple linear equation, or you can get more fancy with it if you like. It would be 'best' if factors beyond the player also affected 'world economy' since the other colonies are also buying, using, and selling things. Maybe there could even be a
rare trade ship from a glitterworld that comes along buying and selling things according to the glitterworld's economy.
I realize this would require some really extensive code changes, head scratching, caffeine, and likely carpal tunnel, but I think it could solve the problem well - and would also add in a type of self-balancing so players don't just do one thing over and over until they can buy the whole planet.
Quote from: Nasikabatrachus on December 16, 2014, 03:05:39 AM
I've noticed that some games sometimes calculate certain values of e.g. weapons based on multiplication of decimals rather than whole numbers. Specifically, a Good Sword might have a X0.50 multiplier on a a base damage value, rather than a X2 multiplier. A Really Good Sword in turn might have a X0.60 multiplier, and so on. Perhaps only a ~Really Legendary Sword~ is worth X5 of the base.
I'm really not a math person by any stretch of the imagination, but it seems to me that this kind of thing allows for better control of value-ceilings.
Of course, I'm not even sure I've analyzed the problem correctly. (Not a math person.)
I have to agree that is the solution, instead of a flat out x2 bonus, something like
(Base Value)*(Skill Bonus)+(Base Value)=(Trader Sell for value)
Were the skill bonus is a percent. So it would look something like this:
1000*.125+1000=$1125
In this example $1125 is the value of the item after the craft bonus is applied, this would scale evenly with item values.
Examples cont.:
100*.125+100=$112.5
10000*.125+10000=$11250
So then to find what the trader would buy from the colonists for would look something like this:
(Trader Sell for value)-(Trader Sell for value)*(Trader Profit Margin)=(Trader Buy Value)
Examples:
112.5-112.5*.4=67.5
1125-1125*.4=675
11250-11250*.4=6750
my solution to the economy problem:
1 give all sell-able items these variables to calculate the price of the item
beauty, the value of the base material, maybe practicality or condition ,and rarity (this could change if people flood the market with wooden swords)
ex: uranium is practical and rare so it would have a pretty high value. But wood sword would mostly be bases on beauty and condition
2 give traders variable for how much they want/need it and this calculates how much they charge
care for beauty, a variable for how much people care about antiques or new relevant items (this could be two separate variables 1 for old 1 for new), how much people want melee weapons or ranged weapons/food/people/supplies
also some suggestions
Can research and make a long range comm tower to offer a large trade, if it peaks the traders interest they will schedule a ship to come by
have to smooth out swamp areas before you can put floors there
can set the percentages for how much someone sleeps/works/ takes a break each day to control peoples health and mental health
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Ok. I've addressed this on multiple levels for now. Upper-end quality price multipliers are lower. Gold and silver ore come in smaller chunks. Crafters gain skill slower and will have a harder time maintaining high skill. Items produced by crafters at the top end won't be as high quality, usually. Traders have a post-process curve that will drastically reduce the price at which they'll buy really expensive items.
Milon's self limiting economy sounds like it would be perfect.
In the A8 video, you said you could "start a sculpture industry and run your colony on sculpture or crafting." This sounded very interesting, but it's hard enough now (at least since I didn't think to try crafting wooden longswords for money, because that's ridiculous) and it seems like it wouldn't be practical if high-level crafters are harder to get and maintain and they don't make high quality items as much.
Maybe weapons should require less material?
Quote from: Tynan on December 12, 2014, 03:36:46 PM
Yes, for granularity reasons different things are measured in different base volumes. 1 wood is like a cinderblock-sized piece. 1 gold is like a small chunk or a coin (of 20x smaller volume).
I don't see how this works with 75 wood to make a mace, 120 steel to make a longsword, etc.
Also, wooden swords really should be worth less
because they're useless, in some way. Weapons with low damage wouldn't be worth much, even if they take a while to make.
love seeing Ty ask the community.
I think that the multiplier could be brought down selling it, while buying it might still be high?
Quote from: Tynan on December 16, 2014, 02:47:40 AM
Indeed.
In fact, it is a bit weird that they're on spaceships. But they're not on starships.
I'd rather they were ground-based, the only reason they're not is because space traders are much easier to implement. Otherwise I'd have them all come by foot.
At some point in the future I'd quite like to see traders that come by boat. I make a point to always settle on coasts (I'll be switching that to always settling on rivers with a preference to large, nile sized ones if/when the world generation supports that.) as for the short term. Hmm, having the craftsmanship be a multiplier seems off, though it may be a matter of scale not type. Perhaps the multipliers on worth should be in the 1.5 - 1.8 sort of range, with lower craftmanship items actually going down in worth. A barely held together plank on a handle should perhaps be worth .5 of it's base price.
umm tynan, I noticed another thing wrong with weapons. unlike art, all swords of the same material but different qualities are treated as the same object, this means that I could have 20 steel longswords and only 1 is legendary, but because of it's placement in my stackpile the traders think all 20 swords are legendary. that's another balance issue with smithing that is way to easy to exploit.
I know I'm a bit late to the party regarding the discussion on price modifiers, but just food for thought- why not think about the item *irrespective* of the material and use that as the baseline, with the value of the material then becoming the modifier?
e.g.
This ring is poorly crafted - $5 - oh but it's made out of $250 in gold, so the price is $255.
This ring is very well crafted - $50 - but it's made out of $4000 in unobtainium, so the price is $4050.
This statue is the most beautifully crafted statue in the galaxy - $7500 - and it's made out of wood, which adds an extra $10 to the price.
Quote from: woolfoma on December 16, 2014, 09:12:35 PM
umm tynan, I noticed another thing wrong with weapons. unlike art, all swords of the same material but different qualities are treated as the same object, this means that I could have 20 steel longswords and only 1 is legendary, but because of it's placement in my stackpile the traders think all 20 swords are legendary. that's another balance issue with smithing that is way to easy to exploit.
Crap that's a bug! I'll fix it thanks.
I would say base it on real life. Make first : the demand for such goods spotty (besides exotic traders, who would always want statues / hand made weapons?) and 2nd, make poor quality items LESS than the value of the raw materials. After all, if you have a horrible quality weapon or other item, most people would only want it for scrap, AND since its not refined it would be LESS than the value of scrap. This is because they need to melt the metal back down into ingots, which means more labor instead of just raw ingots ready to go (or wood or w.e). Think about it...If you have a rusty and bent machete, whos going to buy it, even if they want a machete? Their money could be better spent easily, and sold to scrap dealers even, it would be at a low return "per pound" price... so having a poor crafter would mean tons of wasted time for the sake of training. Also, like other uncommon goods, it might vary from vendor to vendor if they know / appreciate the value of it, so unlike stock guns, supplies, someone might be unwilling to buy a legendary weapon / perfect statue for its whole worth.
On a side note...it would be fun if people could also tinker with guns to slightly improve stats, but I think a refined gun system (optimal range separate from range the bullet can possibly go(players shoot at 7 squares away, but can actually fire as long as 10(which would also fix the hunters issue)), accuracy of the gun seperate from the colonists accuracy(so even a perfect marksman can miss at long ranges, cause you know, pistols arent 100% accurate), perhaps even effects to movement speed for bigger guns(pistols give full speed, miniguns make you crawl)) would be necessary before this would even be worth it.
PS: I speak on the issue as someone who has worked in recycling work, and there is a lot of work to taking trash, taking it apart into its elements, delivering them to refineries, then sending them to other places to be used. Unless its readily usable and marketable, recycling something actually takes a lot of effort.
I just hope that the skill decrease is not too aggressive. Seeing your colonists loose skill is very infuriating.
A possible way to fix it could be to floor the decrease at skill level decrease (so the colonist loses his/her progress to the next level, but not his/her level) or maybe at max attained level - 1 so you can't decrease that much.
Quote from: Tynan on December 16, 2014, 09:29:10 PM
Crap that's a bug! I'll fix it thanks.
ok, glad I could help.
The insane amounts of money you can make by trading can be mitigated by making it so that traders only have a limited demand for certain items.
It's really kind of like the junk vendor syndrome you see in many rpgs.
Even if a vendor has enough money, they shouldn't buy all your crap just because they can afford it.
So you got 40 wooden swords? too bad dude i only need 3.
Maybe make it so that pawns with good social skill can persuade the trader to buy a few more or something.
I like the idea of making a persons social skill fit into trading.
Say you have 0 social skill on a person, that 40,000 dollar gold thing only sells for 1000 because you can't convince the merchant to pay more, while on the other side a skill of 15 or so gets you the full amount and so on. Allows you to use the skill more than just talking to each other.
Quote from: potatoetater on December 18, 2014, 04:37:11 PM
I like the idea of making a persons social skill fit into trading.
Say you have 0 social skill on a person, that 40,000 dollar gold thing only sells for 1000 because you can't convince the merchant to pay more, while on the other side a skill of 15 or so gets you the full amount and so on. Allows you to use the skill more than just talking to each other.
That has always been a thing....hasn't it?
Tynan, I think I have a solution to your problem.
You said low-quality items would have trouble with offset modifiers. Why don't you formulate the algorithm like this:
Market Value = (Item Base Price) + ((Quality Offset)*(An assigned number for type of material)
i.e. Wood = 1, or a fraction, and Silver is 1.5, and Gold is 2, etc.
Could the code allow for something like that?
Just my thoughts on the subject, I would not limit the price of items, but make it so that there is a change in the money available on the trader. It seems strange to me that they are trading such huge amounts of silver when surely it'd be much better for them in the majority of cases to barter. If we take a trade system like the one in fallout 3 (top of my head), most traders don't have that much money. You can trade stuff however to offset the loss you're making on a deal. You may have a piece of art worth 40,000 but the trader don't have that much money, you can take everything he has and the 10,000 he owes you, but you cant just take the money as he doesn't have that much.
This seems like an especially fitting system based on the idea of the traders as some random ass people that fly around in their spaceship trading with other random ass colonists. They'd want to travel light in money due to the huge amount of pirates.
This as a system makes the most sense to me, that is of course subjective however
iirc. the system already works that way. it's just that the traders often brings crappy items for trade most of the time.
Quote from: waldo2000 on December 16, 2014, 09:19:21 AM
instead of a flat out x2 bonus, something like
(Base Value)*(Skill Bonus)+(Base Value)=(Trader Sell for value)
Were the skill bonus is a percent. So it would look something like this:
1000*.125+1000=$1125
In this example $1125 is the value of the item after the craft bonus is applied, this would scale evenly with item values.
Examples cont.:
100*.125+100=$112.5
10000*.125+10000=$11250
So then to find what the trader would buy from the colonists for would look something like this:
(Trader Sell for value)-(Trader Sell for value)*(Trader Profit Margin)=(Trader Buy Value)
Examples:
112.5-112.5*.4=67.5
1125-1125*.4=675
11250-11250*.4=6750
I agree with this solution. Aswell as with that melee weapons shouldn't be that expensive or if they are then range weapons (all but pila, bows) should cost more, based on there effeciency.
About art if you got a good artist then he should be able to make something form steel that will cost more than a bad one makes from gold. Also currently stockpile for silver is 500 maybe make it 2000 cause 40 000 is 80 tiles thats way too big.... or maybe 5000 per tile.
Also if the skills decrease agreesive than maybe some implants will help. Like have three kinds for every skill. They shouldn't let the skill drop less then 7, 14 and one that does not let it drop at all.
Maybe we should make some sort of a bank in the game. Were you can store your money and get interest, but also you will have to pay for keeping that money in the bank, so that you don't get overwhelmed buy the amount you got.
Maybe if you got a lot off money than space pirates will be more aggresive towards you and you will need to bribe them or they will beat it out of you. I think that bionic parts should cost more.
For me the problem is that you got all the resource you need and don't have a way to spend the silver you got. I like looting dead bodies for stuff, selling art, cloth, crafting from silver and gold, but were do I spend my profit?
Quote from: Tynan on December 15, 2014, 11:47:16 PM
I'm curious as to how you guys would suggest fixing this. I sense two separate issues:
1. Art and crafts can become too valuable. The base value of a gold sculpture 40,000. The quality modifier can add insane amounts of value, because it multiplies the entire base value of the item, while not really costing anything to obtain if you have a good crafter.
I think that you could make a new kind of trader that comes on a rotation, possibly seasonal, that has crazy amounts of silver for players to sell their high value stuff to. That's just the first idea that comes to mind.
Quote from: Team: Colonist on December 24, 2014, 02:57:16 AM
Quote from: Tynan on December 15, 2014, 11:47:16 PM
I'm curious as to how you guys would suggest fixing this. I sense two separate issues:
1. Art and crafts can become too valuable. The base value of a gold sculpture 40,000. The quality modifier can add insane amounts of value, because it multiplies the entire base value of the item, while not really costing anything to obtain if you have a good crafter.
I think that you could make a new kind of trader that comes on a rotation, possibly seasonal, that has crazy amounts of silver for players to sell their high value stuff to. That's just the first idea that comes to mind.
"A ship has arrived on orbit. It's not a trader, but a lost cruise ship full of curious yet wealthy individuals."
Sells nothing, buys everything, has 2 billion silver in stock.
Quote from: StorymasterQ on December 24, 2014, 03:22:56 AM
Sells nothing, buys everything, has 2 billion silver in stock.
Buys everything. You don't get a choice. All your items and structures are sold. Your food, weapons, apparel, sculptures, bionics, production tables, even the walls, are all replaced by silver. Your colonists are left naked and freezing. You have to immediately start building rooms out of silver and chopping trees for firewood.
Or, the colonists are bought too, meaning every part of the entire colony is converted into a huge pile of silver, ending the game (unless you want to wait around for someone to show up to join the colony.)