[A13] Combat Realism v.1.6.5 (08.05.16) Final release

[Goldenpotatoes]

Is it just me, or do great bows need a buff? I was doing some testing with a rank 20 shooter on other colonists (because I'm a monster) and not only was she useless aiming in a clear field at an upright pawn in bright light at middle range but if the pawn is wearing any clothing at all you get bruises. The worst injuries I was able to inflict were small cuts and minor cracks in bones. I was using apparello and might have been doing things wrong so I'll run more tests later. Other weapons were absolutely lethal (other than a railgun, same problem with bruises) and the shooter was in perfect health. I was also using epoe with patches, and yes, I restarted the game and made a new world. Sorry in advance if they are added by someone else.

Yeah, I had a skill 10 shooter with a masterwork great bow only applying bruises and very occasionally, cuts. I think it may be due to balance with how easy it is to mass-produce arrows and how tribal raids can get fairly huge mid-late game. Apparello gear for the most part doesn't have too crazy stats on most of its usual apparel so its not like its soaking up a load of damage.

[Krutchen]

So, I noticed that Tac Vests use shoulders, and Backpacks use torso bodygroups, is there a way to wear something on your neck?
Trying to make it so that I can have someone wearing a Tac Vest and using a modded Medieval shield. Also, regarding bows being poop, if I can get it working I'll toss you guys my changes, because Steel & Plasteel arrows can sort of improve the effectiveness of a bow. I have the arrows in, I just messed up on the crafting spot recipe and it's probably like a single misspelled word, Lol.


Yep, Plassteel instead of Plasteel, gonna do some testing to make sure it all works, then i'll attach a zip.

[dareddevil7]

Is it now impossible to have pawns survive a shot to the brain to then fall into a coma, left in the coma as to not anger the other colonists by euthanizing them

[AllenWL]

Is it just me, or do great bows need a buff? I was doing some testing with a rank 20 shooter on other colonists (because I'm a monster) and not only was she useless aiming in a clear field at an upright pawn in bright light at middle range but if the pawn is wearing any clothing at all you get bruises. The worst injuries I was able to inflict were small cuts and minor cracks in bones. I was using apparello and might have been doing things wrong so I'll run more tests later. Other weapons were absolutely lethal (other than a railgun, same problem with bruises) and the shooter was in perfect health. I was also using epoe with patches, and yes, I restarted the game and made a new world. Sorry in advance if they are added by someone else.

What was the quality of the bow?
Also what clothes where the target wearing, and what was it's armor values?
Did you use snapshot or aimed shot?

My colonists are using a short bow and stone arrows with poor/shoddy quality, and they have levels averaging about 6, 7 or so, and they still manage to take down their targets easily enough. The stone arrow gave cuts and cracked bones with a damage of 10 to unarmored enemies.

Even a single shoddy armor vest was enough to reduce practically all injures to a damage-1 bruise though, because the arrows have a horrible armor penetration.

[cnileoleman]

What was the quality of the bow?
Also what clothes where the target wearing, and what was it's armor values?
Did you use snapshot or aimed shot?

My colonists are using a short bow and stone arrows with poor/shoddy quality, and they have levels averaging about 6, 7 or so, and they still manage to take down their targets easily enough. The stone arrow gave cuts and cracked bones with a damage of 10 to unarmored enemies.

Even a single shoddy armor vest was enough to reduce practically all injures to a damage-1 bruise though, because the arrows have a horrible armor penetration.

Normal quality, as I dropped with it all using Prepare carefully. "Subject" was wearing normal synthread shirt, other that received minor cuts was wearing no shirt. Didn't bother testing armor after those results. Using an aimed shot. I'll take down armor values in the future but didn't feel it necessary for a normal quality vanilla item. FOR SCIENCE!!!!!!

[AllenWL]

Ok, did some quick testing, and found something.. weird.

Used a normal great bow as the weapon, a colonist with a shooting level of 8, and three targets, all dressed in synthread.

The results?
Aiming: A area with no cover(used the 'clear area' dev command thing), 14 tiles away from the shooter(about half the range of the bow), aimed shots.
Accuracy isn't bad, actually, about two out of three shots hit the target...
IF the target is a full-grown colonist with a body size of 100%.
When the target was a teenager with a smaller body size, only about one in four, five shots landed.

Damage: Slightly weird thing here. It looks like synthread does block arrows, reducing the great arrow's 12 base damage into 5, and if it's a jacket, 3, bruises and cracks only.
However, for some reason, the first target, who also had synthread clothes, had the arrows penetrate, giving cuts that dealt 8 damage, and often hit organs as well, taking him down in about 3 hits.

I think there needs to be some research into how the quality of the clothes effect it's defensive properties, because no matter how advanced synthread is, a t-shirt blocking arrows is ridiculous. Clothing probably shouldn't have a very high defense against cutting attacks.

[harpyeagle]

NoImageAvailable, I'm not sure if you check the issue tracker on GitHub, but there are two issues there right now.

[talar1408]

Have no experience with Combat Realism mod before A13.

Here are some problems I've encountered with new ammo and inventory system:
- Weapon and ammo occupy most of inventory space, leaving armed colonists unable to haul effectively. Is it intended?
- Even colonists with empty inventories generally haul much less than full stacks.
- On the other hand, it seems that most (all?) minified furniture items have weight and bulk of one. So colonists can't haul 75 potatoes, but 10 statues - totally alright (well not exactly haul, you have to pick up and drop everything manually)...
- Colonists using preset load-outs, go to refill ammo after reloading even once. Like go hunting, use-up single clip (failing to secure a kill) and go to re-arm immediately. Maybe they should do so at about 50% ammo?...

Overall, ammo seems to produce micromanagement overkill:
- To make hauling effective under this new system, colonists must be able to haul more than single stacks of small volume items (carry whole inventory of different ammo-types). Which realistically is not going to happen, I think...
- I need a huge stockpile areas to store all ammo.
- Since I can't afford to constantly carry around weapons and ammo, I also need to setup huge amount of small arsenal stockpiles (few tiles per weapon + ammo), to be able to pick them up quickly.
- Maybe colonists should be able to haul full stack of any items or single object of any weight/bulk. (ie make haul slot independent of inventory space/weight, this would also allow forbidding minified furniture in inventory).

I like other aspects of mod, but I think I'll pass on it till amount of micromanagement becomes more bearable.
Or option to turn ammo off - though as far as I understand firing modes are balanced around concept of limited ammo, and this will probably make full-auto too good vs single fire (than again, unlimited ammo could be accompanied by reduced clip sizes and increased reload times).

[NoImageAvailable]

Damage: Slightly weird thing here. It looks like synthread does block arrows, reducing the great arrow's 12 base damage into 5, and if it's a jacket, 3, bruises and cracks only.
However, for some reason, the first target, who also had synthread clothes, had the arrows penetrate, giving cuts that dealt 8 damage, and often hit organs as well, taking him down in about 3 hits.

I think there needs to be some research into how the quality of the clothes effect it's defensive properties, because no matter how advanced synthread is, a t-shirt blocking arrows is ridiculous. Clothing probably shouldn't have a very high defense against cutting attacks.

You can just pull up the info tab for that synthread clothing and see that jackets have 8% sharp armor base and that Synthread adds 3% and a 1.65 multiplier so a normal quality Synthread jacket will put you at 18.15% sharp reduction, enough to deflect simple stone arrows (keep in mind we're dealing with sharpened stone arrow heads here) and hollow point bullets (not unreasonable either seeing as you're wearing padded clothing made from advanced materials) but not much more. Its essentially the equivalent of a very low level kevlar vest. Regular clothing doesn't have any base armor but it still benefits from the Synthread, putting it at 4.95% which could still deflect arrows about 40% of the time (again, stone arrow heads).

[...]

Hauling is unaffected by the inventory system, whatever you're seeing, I don't think it has to do with CR. Did you make sure your hauler doesn't have some health issue reducing manipulation?

The hunting refill thing is a known issue and being worked on.

[talar1408]

Hauling is unaffected by the inventory system, whatever you're seeing, I don't think it has to do with CR. Did you make sure your hauler doesn't have some health issue reducing manipulation?

You are probably right here. It was my first game with CR and Crash Landing, I had much more significantly injured colonists than usual.

[AllenWL]

Damage: Slightly weird thing here. It looks like synthread does block arrows, reducing the great arrow's 12 base damage into 5, and if it's a jacket, 3, bruises and cracks only.
However, for some reason, the first target, who also had synthread clothes, had the arrows penetrate, giving cuts that dealt 8 damage, and often hit organs as well, taking him down in about 3 hits.

I think there needs to be some research into how the quality of the clothes effect it's defensive properties, because no matter how advanced synthread is, a t-shirt blocking arrows is ridiculous. Clothing probably shouldn't have a very high defense against cutting attacks.

You can just pull up the info tab for that synthread clothing and see that jackets have 8% sharp armor base and that Synthread adds 3% and a 1.65 multiplier so a normal quality Synthread jacket will put you at 18.15% sharp reduction, enough to deflect simple stone arrows (keep in mind we're dealing with sharpened stone arrow heads here) and hollow point bullets (not unreasonable either seeing as you're wearing padded clothing made from advanced materials) but not much more. Its essentially the equivalent of a very low level kevlar vest. Regular clothing doesn't have any base armor but it still benefits from the Synthread, putting it at 4.95% which could still deflect arrows about 40% of the time (again, stone arrow heads).

I guess that makes sense. But still, it's kinda annoying when you decide to go with bows and arrows instead of rushing the machining table or going melee, then find out you have to rush machining table or go melee anyways because unless it's something like crazy muffalos, using bows and arrows are somehow worse then using your bare hands, because nearly every raider uses body armor(unless they're tribals).

I think something like a steel-point arrow with slightly higher armor penetration would be nice.

[NoImageAvailable]

Next batch of fixes went up, I think that's pretty much all the major bugs squashed. Now all that needs to happen for the proper release is some balancing chances and the turret compatibility.

I guess that makes sense. But still, it's kinda annoying when you decide to go with bows and arrows instead of rushing the machining table or going melee, then find out you have to rush machining table or go melee anyways because unless it's something like crazy muffalos, using bows and arrows are somehow worse then using your bare hands, because nearly every raider uses body armor(unless they're tribals).

I think something like a steel-point arrow with slightly higher armor penetration would be nice.

I can see the reason for including steel arrows. I'll talk to my artists and see if we can get some more arrow variants added in the near-future.

[Madpizzaboy]

does the latest version of this mod work with the latest version of Expanded Prosthetics and Organ Engineering?

[Krutchen]

I can see the reason for including steel arrows. I'll talk to my artists and see if we can get some more arrow variants added in the near-future.

Yo Fam i got you. Doesn't have Icons, but the recipe work is already done.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9domwycr7irmyze/CombatRealism-1.6.3%2Barrows.zip?dl=0
Arrow = 10 dmg 10% pen
Steel Arrow = 11 dmg 14% pen
Plasteel Arrow = 12 dmg 15% pen

Great Arrow = 12 dmg 15% pen
Steel Arrow = 13 dmg 16% pen
Plasteel Arrow = 14 dmg 18% pen

I kinda feel as though Great Bows need changes though, just looking at the stats.
Comparing a legendary short to a legendary great bow -
Short bow has 52% aim efficiency, 1 deg spread, 1 sway, 1s cooldown, 10 dmg, 1s warmup, 1s warmup, 27 range
The Great bow is exactly the same except it has 12 damage and 1.33s warmup.

I think that maybe the Great Bow should have superior range and maybe accuracy to the short bow, and an adjustment to the warmup based on that. At 14 paces (grids, whatever you call them), a shoddy steel vest was able to reduce everything but Plasteel great arrows to 1 damage, the latter being 2.
The damage is fine, imo though, but maybe the arrows could use more armour pen to do it justice though, and without a doubt buffs to all bow accuracy.
Even a shoddy pistol has more accuracy than these bows, ~.22 deg spread to their 1.0. Bows are probably not on your top list of things at the moment though, but they can be sort of important early game, melee rushes can really screw you over if you get the wrong kind of raid.

[cnileoleman]

Bows definitely need to penetrate soft armor more, seeing as higher pound bows are more than capable of sending arrows through Kevlar. Granted that's with steel broadheads, but stone points are actually similarly effective just with less reusability. I have trouble imagining a Great bow being less than 60# (hunting weight), they would likely be  warbows with draws upwards of 100#. A shirt made of futuristic not-quite-Kevlar isn't going to do much. Short bows on the other hand, probably a much lower weight and not so big a deal. Is this all filthy speculation? You bet!!! Are there bigger things to worry about? Probably.