So the new alpha is here and I love the changes. I haven't had a chance to play yet but I realize that the addition of Sappers has dramatically changed the game. Our old strategies of kill zones and choke points has basically been shot in the face with the latest patch.
A key question has come to my mind. How far are sappers willing to dig or destroy to get into the base? I ask because I usually like to build my bases into mountains with a natural choke point, as the sole entrance, with a large outer field and establish my defenses at the chokepoint. I know they will try to dig through the sides of the choke point to get to me. The real question is, will they try to dig through half a mountain to get to me? Cause that would seem a little op to me. There has to be a limit... right?
Anyone found any good ways to deal with sappers? Let the Discussion begin.
sappers don't start appearing until after a few raids. They will attempt the shortest least resistance path to your base... they do not eliminate the kill box. how to deal with them, kill them, either out in the field, or just as they enter the base... you will see them coming. You have traps of your own you can set. before they breach.
Just made your whole base a deathtrap. 1-2 turrets on vital spots and some cover for your guys in your base and all is fine. :)
Oh and lay some traps random on your map and on points you think they can be usefull. They dont do much damage but are nice to have (made them with the material you have the most from, I made mine mostly out from wood.
Yes, if there is no easier access into your base that avoids turrets, yes they will mine though 20 tiles of rock. They are on a self timer though before they give up and leave like other raiders so they wont stay forever.
I've yet to deal with sappers (or try A11 for that matter). But i've theorized a possible means. It can apply to both open bases and mountain bases.
Basically what I have planned is that if its an open base (not dug into a mountain), it will be a base surrounded by 2 layers of walls. The gap between the walls is where I will put defensive turrets strategically to cover all sides. It will cost quite a fair bit of resources though since the walls will be pretty huge depending on your base size.
The second option would be when building mountain bases. By the same concept, except I will tunnel out a corridor gap within the mountain and put some defences there.
Quote from: Euzio on June 11, 2015, 10:20:08 PM
I've yet to deal with sappers (or try A11 for that matter). But i've theorized a possible means. It can apply to both open bases and mountain bases.
Basically what I have planned is that if its an open base (not dug into a mountain), it will be a base surrounded by 2 layers of walls. The gap between the walls is where I will put defensive turrets strategically to cover all sides. It will cost quite a fair bit of resources though since the walls will be pretty huge depending on your base size.
The second option would be when building mountain bases. By the same concept, except I will tunnel out a corridor gap within the mountain and put some defences there.
The Issue here is I tried a 360 defence with turrets in the last build. you'll need massive amounts of power, and even then you'll not have lots of turrets in an area, and its not sufficient to shut down an attack force after a certain date/richness combo. The only thing keeping me alive and even then it was close was the enemies taste for hugging exploding turrets. Behaviour that has been removed.
I like the dual wall layer approach, make the walls out of stone and fill the gap with some incendiary IED's, wood floors/beds and maybe a few gun turrets and any baddies attempting to breach will die in a messy inferno in short order. 8)
Quote from: Lady Wolf on June 12, 2015, 02:44:01 AM
I like the dual wall layer approach, make the walls out of stone and fill the gap with some incendiary IED's, wood floors/beds and maybe a few gun turrets and any baddies attempting to breach will die in a messy inferno in short order. 8)
Its possible, but as the other thread (which went badly off track) shows it has its problems. Plus there's the mining speed. How quickly do Sappers actually tunnel through walls?
Quote from: Listy on June 12, 2015, 12:56:11 AM
The Issue here is I tried a 360 defence with turrets in the last build. you'll need massive amounts of power, and even then you'll not have lots of turrets in an area, and its not sufficient to shut down an attack force after a certain date/richness combo. The only thing keeping me alive and even then it was close was the enemies taste for hugging exploding turrets. Behaviour that has been removed.
I'm assuming the sappers actually tunnel through and that the raiders with them can also use that dug tunnel to access your base. The idea I have involves turrets that overlap each other within their range of fire. This thereby allows the turrets to essentially shoot from all sides at incoming raiders. In the past, I could just let the turrets do all the work with killboxes but with A11, I'm also factoring in that my colonists will have to play a very active roll in moving to locations in which raiders might breach. Therefore in addition to the turrets, there should be sandbag cover for colonists at strategic points.
I do play with mods though and one of the mods I use has upgraded turrets in which one of the turrets I can build is a sniper turret. Therefore it allows a single sniper turret to cover a huge range and I would supplement it with normal turrets at strategic points. The idea I theorized can likely handle with no mods and using regular turrets, but I would definitely agree that it would take a fair amount of power compared to the past. A solution would be to use switches to turn on certain sections of turrets only depending on the point of attack the raiders are coming from. Like if they are coming from the North, have the switch controlling only the Northern section of turrets.
I just throw the entire kill-box idea out of the window to be honest. now i just draft all my combat capable troops nearly instantly as soon as a raid is coming and move out since fighting around my base is now too risky. But even with far less people it can be quiet do-able even with lesser weapons, skill or armor. The main thing you need to do though is trying to pick off easy targets as soon as possible.
I didn't play A11 yet, but it made me think rocks are too easy to mine through. Nothing against making the game more complex or difficult, but cutting through massive rocks/mountains without visible tools seems kinda op. For sappers as well as for colonists. It wouldn't be a bad call to think about making mining harder with e.g. a pickaxe is needed for the job or similiar.
Hello. I started playing A11 and have not suffered the sappers yet and I'm trying to understand how they work so that I can prepare ahead.
I've read that they take the path of least resistance to your base, but what exactly do they consider your base? Where do they want to reach? What is their target? If i have 2 bases, which one do they choose to attack? I think this applies to all raiders, not only sappers.
Best regards,
Tiago
Quote from: Numar on June 12, 2015, 08:56:03 AM
It wouldn't be a bad call to think about making mining harder with e.g. a pickaxe is needed for the job or similiar.
This. I like this. Tbh I like the idea of Sappers it does change things a bit, but there need to be limitations. Tools are good for the future but there also needs to be a limiting factor for sappers digging. I would say a 5 block maximum digging would be acceptable. For sappers to be able to dig through a mountain to get to me is WAY too OP.
Quote from: SupremeSoviet on June 12, 2015, 05:40:55 PM
Quote from: Numar on June 12, 2015, 08:56:03 AM
It wouldn't be a bad call to think about making mining harder with e.g. a pickaxe is needed for the job or similiar.
This. I like this. Tbh I like the idea of Sappers it does change things a bit, but there need to be limitations. Tools are good for the future but there also needs to be a limiting factor for sappers digging. I would say a 5 block maximum digging would be acceptable. For sappers to be able to dig through a mountain to get to me is WAY too OP.
but once they have spent all that time digging, they are tired and hungry, and fight less efficiently. Not over powered.
They're really not a big deal unless you are completely relying on an auto-turret killbox. You just can't hollow out a mountain and put 30 turrets at the only door and ignore combat for the rest of the game anymore. I always arm my colonists, and while I would prefer to let the turrets do the fighting, I have to go out and make preemptive strikes on sieges anyway, and sapper raids are pretty similar.
Your terrain and how you build has a major effect on sappers. So long as the walls are thick enough you can just go outside and fight them in their tunnel as they dig. Explosives, especially incendiaries, are devastatingly effective in such close quarters. You can also design your base with internal choke points and/or turrets. Just leave them switched off if there are no sappers around.
The point of sappers is to make mountain bases more interesting, and non-mountain bases more viable, by forcing you to do more playing and less watching armies of morons run to their deaths.
Also sappers are just a raid type. Normal raiders are still lemmings, and the mechanoids haven't changed.
Quote from: PotatoOnStick on June 12, 2015, 06:39:56 AM
I just throw the entire kill-box idea out of the window to be honest. now i just draft all my combat capable troops nearly instantly as soon as a raid is coming and move out since fighting around my base is now too risky. But even with far less people it can be quiet do-able even with lesser weapons, skill or armor. The main thing you need to do though is trying to pick off easy targets as soon as possible.
I've always done the majority of the fighting with my colonists. However its the age old issue of having to out gun the attackers somewhere.
I used to use a small number of turrets just so I didn't need to respond to mad animal (single) events.
In my A10 game I decided to try out a new approach, in preparation for A11 and sappers.
My entire base is surrounded by this:
http://i.imgur.com/gtoBsHz.jpg
The outer walls and the sandbags are new additions after about 8 scythers decided to snipe the hell out of me.
Each turret can cover both of its neighbours. However the sheer number of turrets needed means the power consumption is horrifically high. Plus its hard to concentrate firepower. In the latest raids I've lost the entire side or more of the bases turrets. The only thing keeping me from getting overwhelmed was the turret explosions. And on the last tribal raid I suffered even that didn't stop them from reaching my lines though sheer weight of numbers.
So Some new thinking is needed I fear.
Quote from: Listy on June 13, 2015, 02:20:26 AM
Quote from: PotatoOnStick on June 12, 2015, 06:39:56 AM
I just throw the entire kill-box idea out of the window to be honest. now i just draft all my combat capable troops nearly instantly as soon as a raid is coming and move out since fighting around my base is now too risky. But even with far less people it can be quiet do-able even with lesser weapons, skill or armor. The main thing you need to do though is trying to pick off easy targets as soon as possible.
I've always done the majority of the fighting with my colonists. However its the age old issue of having to out gun the attackers somewhere.
I used to use a small number of turrets just so I didn't need to respond to mad animal (single) events.
So Some new thinking is needed I fear.
I believe i never said that you should try to outgun the enemies? Then again i tend to forget. I just tend to pick them off one by one or ambush them so that they do not have any cover. To even be able to do this you will need to prepare some stuff across the entire map but you can with this tactic just ensure survival for a long while hoping you pick the right ones out.
Mechnoids have changed they can mine recently had them tunnel into a bedroom.
sappers are extremely dangerously annoying especially when there is a toxic fallout! i love playing in the wintery setup.. prepping for the long winter then bam! here's a raid party with a few sappers! now i like putting a double to tripple wall defense with a double turret for cover!
Quote from: jhennice18 on June 16, 2015, 12:13:02 PM
sappers are extremely dangerously annoying especially when there is a toxic fallout! i love playing in the wintery setup.. prepping for the long winter then bam! here's a raid party with a few sappers! now i like putting a double to tripple wall defense with a double turret for cover!
I'm thinking the same an outer wall to speed bump the Sappers down and concealed positions for Trigger happy colonists with grenades around the inside perimeter. Then the base proper.
I might even try the incendiary wall cavity idea as well on the outer wall.
we need moats filled with lava.
Making some dumping zones to fill full of rock debris about 4-10 blocks wide/thick makes a nice kill zone against melee men, and rining your base with such a wall also slows up sappers a short bit, giving a little extra time to get in position to counter them.
I stumbled on an idea when I checked the available steam geysers on the map. One was reasonably close to home, but it needed a lot of cable to reach my base. It might have been vulnerable there all alone, but it only supplied EXTRA power. I decided to tunnel through the mountain myself, and run a cable there. When I was initially attacked, a sniper set up outside turret range (as they do) to slowly pick it off. I sent MY sniper through the mountain to approach him from behind and kill him. Worked a treat. This also worked when I had my first sapper attack. As the melee soldiers continued slightly ahead of the tunnelling sapper trying to get through two tiles, I approached him from behind as well as sending some melee troops in to where he was attempting entry. The turrets meanwhile made short work of his fellow raiders, and by the time the sapper broke through and began melee with my team in the base, I also had a sniper behind him picking him off. I did suffer some nasty casualties, but drove them off.
I'm still experimenting with counter-sapper strategies.
1. Counter raid. Send out some sharpshooters with sniper rifles and target the SAPPER. As fas as I have seen only 1-2 raiders will be sappers. The sappers are the ones with the frag grenades or molotov cocktails. I haven't seen any other raiders digging; if you kill the sapper it might turn into a regular raid.
2. Quick defenses. When I know where they will be sapping I can often throw up 2-3 quick sentry guns or IEDs right where they will break through and/or in the nearby halls. The sapper is usually the first raider into the breach... and boom.
3. Distract. Send out hit and run raids while they are sapping; this will cause them to stop sapping to defend. Pull back to base. When they return to sapping, hit and run again. Wait for timer to run out.
4. Prepare traps. I'm not entirely sure about this one yet. Sappers seem to go for the shortest path into your base. I've started preparing 1-tile-wide tunnels that are blocked at the end by walls. I pre-load these tunnels with rockfalls and IEDs. My thought is that the sappers will aim for one of these spurs as a short path in and get chewed up by the traps. Want to add sentry guns too? Put the whole spur on a power switch so it doesn't drain power.
My experimental concepts are as follows:
1. Cladding and baffles: plate the entire mountainside with a stone wall so they can't mine anything, and then erect a layer of porous baffles around it: If they try to bomb the wall with their grenades, the baffles will disrupt any line of fire and force them to close to point blank, where they will blow themselves up.
2. Decoy structures: Can sappers be completely confused as to what is even a substantive part of your base, causing them to mine into irrelevant areas which you can then fill with traps?
3. Give into madness, embrace Jattenalle as savior: Use only psychically deaf colonists, leave an evil ship unmolested and have everyone on the map go mad. Raiders cease to be an issue and defenses are only needed to repel mechs and wolves.