Uncertainty Veil (Fog of War)

[b0rsuk]

I have a feeling that when people hear "fog of war", they have a knee-jerk reaction "blizzard RTS".

There is more than one way to implement fog of war. I used some Starcraft 2 examples (comsat scan) because it's familiar, not because I'm a huge fan of the game or their design philosophy. Actually if there's something typical to blizzard RTS games, it's low vision range. Units move very quickly relative to their shooting range. And they can barely, if at all, see farther than they shoot.

Other RTS games do it differently. Total Annihilation uses fog of war, but units tend to see far, and there are radars that see through fog of war. You still see just red blips, but it gives a sense of comfort.

Emperor: Battle For Dune is another RTS with quite forgiving fog of war. What's interesting about it is that fog of war stays cleared for a few minutes. The game also has very cheap Scout infantry, they move fast, and are stealthy when not moving. Combined these features mean that fog of war is there, you have to make a certain effort to scout, but for most part you see at least the areas you care the most about. If you put your mind to it, you can hunt down all enemy scouts in an area and be free from prying eyes, until a new wave arrives. You often see where enemy armies are moving, as opposed to SC2 where scouting means "sending a sacrificial unit to enemy base to see what buildings are there, every few minutes". In SC2 you're mostly walking around in the dark, and armies often stumble on each other.

My point is: Fog of War doesn't automatically mean "I can't see stuff outside the stone throw range, like in Blizzard games".

One thing that in my opinion would ease the fears is making pawns see farther than they can shoot. Sniper rifle might be an exception, it depends on playtesting.

[Darth Fool]

Information glut isn't so much a failure as a missed opportunity.  Nothing breaks when there is too much information.  Testers don't get confused and cry for help.  In fact, the game hums along too smoothly because they understand everything.  That's why often, the hardest part about tackling information glut is realizing that it's happening in the first place.

Bonus points for identifying the game designer and the source ...

[AllenWL]

I didn’t read the entire thread, so I might be repeating already said things, but...

I’m conflicted about this, to say the least.

On one hand, this would take a lot of work to fit in with the game. Being unable to see past your line of sight would could be annoying, or downright bad, as we won’t know which place raiders will come, where that sieging party is, we won’t be able to spot new herds of animals coming by(and that could prove fatal during the winter months), and finding where the cargo pods or space refugees crashed, or being unable to find that hoard of alphabeavers could be very annoying. Searching for ancient ship parts, missing a battle between raiders and visiting townsmen(or a battle between insane animals and visitors. Or a bunch of raiders going mad and killing each other. Or.. well, you get my point.) Besides, it would also pretty much turn the mortar into a useless lump of metal.

Entities would need to only react to things within their view as well(Not being able to see raiders) After all, your pawn suddenly walking off to binge on beer(which crashed on a pod, which you never found), or being attacked by a insane rabbit that somehow could track you from a hundred meters away, raiders somehow seeing that hole in the wall from the other side of your base, or raiders ambushing you in a foggy night when you can’t even see them would’t make for an nice game.

You shouldn’t be able to shoot things you can’t see, but if you can see it, you should be able to fire at it. Of course, if you’re shooting at a raider a hundred meters away with a pistol, you won’t get much results. However, even blind and in total dark, the unit should still be aware of at least very basic directions, and be able to attack/move in the general direction(this is so you can’t put your defenders in total darkness in night and be totally safe.)

Raids, visitors, ship part and cargo pod crashes should tell you a direction(E.x A cargo pod has crashed in the north!/Pirates from [random pirate faction] are attacking from the southeast!/An ancient ship part has crashed in the West!/etc) instead of sending you to the location, and only send you to the location if you can see them.

There should also be methods of seeing better, like bionic eyes letting the colonist see in the dark(translation: letting you see better in the dark), sniper rifles(or more accurately, the scope on the sniper rifles) letting the pawns see further, etc.

And we’d probably also need more items, such as night vision goggles or spyglasses to equip to colonists letting them see in the dark, or see further, windows/embrasures/fences/prison bars/etc to let colonists see past ‘walls’, spotlights to light up the dark, cameras that can be used to ‘see’ when there are no people, maybe radars or watchtowers that reveal large areas around them, etc.

If done well, I believe that it could really improve the gameplay, making it a lot more fun.
I mean, think about it.
Getting a message about raiders, then seeing them get run over by rabid a group of insane boars.
Or.
You’re warned about raiders in the north. As your colonists pick up their weapons and strap on their armor vests, you hear gunshots. Your best scout goes out to see what’s going on. He sneaks out, puts his spyglass to his eye to see the last of the pirates run away, the ground littered with dead or incapitated raiders and the corpses of boars.

You get attacked by pirates during a foggy night. It’s a bit hard to see, but not really a problem. Things go on much like a day fight, the lowered hit rate rather hard to notice unless you pay very close attention. You easily track down every enemy as they retreat into the foggy night.
Or.
It’s a dark foggy night, and your colonists can barely see further then a few meters. You’re notified of raiders coming from the south, and you send out defenders as fast as you can. The dark fog hides the raiders from your view, even as it hides you from theirs. You bring out your colonist with the bionic eye and night vision goggles, and with the help of the high-tech vision aids, he is able to spot the raiders, and he fires, taking out the few you deem most dangerous. As the raiders come near, you turn off the lights in your base, plunging your base into darkness, blinding the raiders. You order the spotlights to be lit, and your colonists aim them at the direction of the oncoming raiders, the bright light cutting through the dark of the night and reveling the raiders as the rush your base. Your colonists fire, taking down the now-visible raiders. The raiders fire back, but with your colonists hidden by the fog and dark, only a few lucky raiders are able to hit your colonists. After a brief firefight, the raiders run back into the night, and you are forced to let them go as the vanish into the dark.

Siegers are attempting to siege your base. You rush them with heavily armored soldiers as soon as possible and chase them off.
Or.
A message alerts you of siegers setting up base in the east.
You send out a single scout with binoculars and scout out the enemy, noting their gear and numbers, before ordering the scout to retreat.
That night, you arm a few soldiers, and send them out to ambush th siegers as the sleep.
Your soldiers take up positions around the sleeping pirates, then a man runs in, then throws molotov cocktails into the group of raiders, before quickly retreating. The raiders wake up, and fire at your soldiers, but they are taking cover behind trees and boulders, and in dark, while the raiders are lit up by the molotov cocktail’s fire that reveals each and every one of them to your soldiers. Your soldiers make short work of the siegers, the rest running away.

This is just what I think.

[Necronomocoins]

Maybe we could convince someone to mod this into the game? So if you want FOW you have to download and install it. I liked the night time darkness mod, I can't remember what it's called, but it's not exactly a Fog of War, just a very dark screen at night. I want more of a greyed out fog and black unexplored FOW and line of sight, visual range, maybe extended visual range with a sniper rifle, bionics etc. and reduced visual range with loss of an eye or visual impairment due to age etc. with very dark screen at night too.

[Necronomocoins]

Besides, it would also pretty much turn the mortar into a useless lump of metal.

I don't know if you've ever used a mortar before, but it IS a useless lump of metal without a spotter, relaying to the guy aiming and adjusting the mortar, where the last shell hit and what he should adjust in order to hit a target.

[Mathenaut]

On one hand, this would take a lot of work to fit in with the game. Being unable to see past your line of sight would could be annoying, or downright bad, as we won�t know which place raiders will come, where that sieging party is, we won�t be able to spot new herds of animals coming by(and that could prove fatal during the winter months), and finding where the cargo pods or space refugees crashed, or being unable to find that hoard of alphabeavers could be very annoying. Searching for ancient ship parts, missing a battle between raiders and visiting townsmen(or a battle between insane animals and visitors.

This leads back to why it was removed to begin with. Many of the elements that bring the world to live would be lost or would functionally cease to exist, not to mention the direction it would lean the gameplay.

There hasn't really been a solid case presented for what FoW introduces that makes the loss of all that worthwhile. Just nebulous reaching about people being 'afraid' of it or some of the most vague hyperbole I've recently seen to describe horror or a wealth of other non-specific, poorly defined things it would bring in.

Nobody has really tackled the question of why this needs to be in core when the appeal is strictly niche?

[Johnny Masters]

Your negativity and constant putting down others doesn't make a good case either, you can disagree without dropping hints or going verbose about it.

Information glut isn't so much a failure as a missed opportunity.  Nothing breaks when there is too much information.  Testers don't get confused and cry for help.  In fact, the game hums along too smoothly because they understand everything.  That's why often, the hardest part about tackling information glut is realizing that it's happening in the first place.

Bonus points for identifying the game designer and the source ...

snap!

On one hand, this would take a lot of work to fit in with the game. Being unable to see past your line of sight would could be annoying, or downright bad, as we won�t know which place raiders will come, where that sieging party is, we won�t be able to spot new herds of animals coming by(and that could prove fatal during the winter months), and finding where the cargo pods or space refugees crashed, or being unable to find that hoard of alphabeavers could be very annoying. Searching for ancient ship parts, missing a battle between raiders and visiting townsmen(or a battle between insane animals and visitors. Or a bunch of raiders going mad and killing each other. Or.. well, you get my point.) Besides, it would also pretty much turn the mortar into a useless lump of metal.

Hey Allen, those are some cool possibilities there, we already know what stories we can have without FoW, but if we take a moment, like you did, to consider all the potential FoW has, then we can actually see and ponder if we are missing something cool or not.

Some of the concerns you showed could be easily dealt with with explanations yourself gave, like matching firing range and LoS or message prompts about the general area of an event (such as a siege), something as simple as a "stirred flock of birds from the east" could instigate you to investigate or not. A lot of the other concerns some people could actually consider a feature of FoW, like an added challenge such as an extra challenge in finding food and shelter in a hostile environment (like ice biome).  This game is, after all, tied with the survival genre.

[Necronomocoins]

I think a CCTV and satellite launching research options, unlocking powered cameras with unlimited visual range and a console early on then full map view later, after a satellite launch would add to the game and remove any confusion that a FOW might bring.

[b0rsuk]

It would be even better if the game had flocks of birds. And animals which are not moving plants. Then you could have flock of birds actually startled, and fly over your colony, and it would be through emergence rather than a hardcoded description.

[Mathenaut]

If you're feeling insulted because I've insulted you, then that's an issue of me stepping over the line. If you're feeling insulted because I'm saying your argument is bad, that.. is kind of your own problem. I don't know what to say to that.

Or..

This is sort of the optimal thing to do anyways, for people who don't have a colony full of power armor. If you do have power armor, then rushing the base at night is still the better thing to do, FoW or no. Doesn't really change much there.

It would be even better if the game had flocks of birds. And animals which are not moving plants. Then you could have flock of birds actually startled, and fly over your colony, and it would be through emergence rather than a hardcoded description.

This is an interesting idea, though it'll make hunting a world less productive. I'd argue that this is something that works better without FoW, as you'd be able to tell whether the birds/animals moving by are just passing through or are actually startled by something.

[Johnny Masters]

It's not the first time you insult me or other people, and disguising it with indirects won't cut it, not for me or the moderators at least.

Your creative ways of undermining other's arguments, while amusingly funny, brings nothing to the discussion, thus dispensable.

It would be even better if the game had flocks of birds. And animals which are not moving plants. Then you could have flock of birds actually startled, and fly over your colony, and it would be through emergence rather than a hardcoded description.

I always wanted there to be birds but if they have an added function that would be beautiful design.

A bird connoisseur (or some wikiwarrior) could correct if necessary, but to differentiate between startled flocks from regular passing birds: a passing flock would fly in formation in a relatively slow cruising speed, while a startled flock could move faster en mass, without a formation. It's subtle but you can pick it up.

For hunting, we'd need some better AI to auto-hunt, where the hunter will roam the land until contact. But then we'd need some AI to, for example, flee from raiders or hostiles should be the case. But hunting needs an overhaul anyways...

I think a CCTV and satellite launching research options, unlocking powered cameras with unlimited visual range and a console early on then full map view later, after a satellite launch would add to the game and remove any confusion that a FOW might bring.

Pretty much what i was thinking. Dunno about vanilla, but at least with some mods we could have a lot of granularity here, several steps in the tech tree. From makeshift radars limited in range and detection to extensive ground area surveillance radars, mobile dopplers, heat signature devices, advanced PIRs, satellites and etcetera. And of course a lot of 'side' sensors such as the cctv you mention and pretty much anything we could think about (its a sci fi, heh).

I'm thinking that if we ever get some of the "explorations" suggestions happen, FoW would come pretty handy.
cues "a whole new world" song.

[Mathenaut]

There was one point, in another thread, when I crossed the line. I knew that I was crossing the line and I owned it. What you're talking about here is just vague alluding to nothing you've substantiated.. I suspect to dismiss my criticisms. I don't see this derailing as a coincidence when I press on a very simple question that still hasn't been addressed.

Perhaps someone else can answer it:

Why is a mod not sufficient for this, should Tynan introduce the structure for this? Nobody is objecting to that, if anything that's encouraged.

Why does this belong in core, given what it will remove, when anything supposedly gained is purely niche?

[b0rsuk]

It would be even better if the game had flocks of birds. And animals which are not moving plants. Then you could have flock of birds actually startled, and fly over your colony, and it would be through emergence rather than a hardcoded description.

This is an interesting idea, though it'll make hunting a world less productive. I'd argue that this is something that works better without FoW, as you'd be able to tell whether the birds/animals moving by are just passing through or are actually startled by something.

Not necessarily. One of the first suggestions I've made on this forum was that hunting should be more about stalking rather than DPS. You could achieve that by making animals afraid while greatly reducing their HP. That shouldn't even affect combat much, perhaps learning Shooting from hunting would be slower. But you could still have pawns to be as bullet spongy as they are.

As for animals running out of field of view, there's the old trick of "go to last seen enemy position".

With all his talk of emergence, you'd think Tynan would rely more on systems and less on the magic 8-ball the Storyteller is.

[Monkfish]

Besides, it would also pretty much turn the mortar into a useless lump of metal.

I don't know if you've ever used a mortar before, but it IS a useless lump of metal without a spotter, relaying to the guy aiming and adjusting the mortar, where the last shell hit and what he should adjust in order to hit a target.

Dslyecxi's latest ShackTac video shows this beautifully...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OReQ1tJcfb8

Edit: Aww, no embedded uChoob?

[Mathenaut]

Not necessarily. One of the first suggestions I've made on this forum was that hunting should be more about stalking rather than DPS. You could achieve that by making animals afraid while greatly reducing their HP. That shouldn't even affect combat much, perhaps learning Shooting from hunting would be slower. But you could still have pawns to be as bullet spongy as they are.

Hmm. I think it's only a matter of dps because it's a measure of how fast you can kill the animals to get the most meat. From the system you are describing, the emphasis changes from single-target dps to aoe-dps. i.e. hitting as many different targets at one time as possible.

The end result is still more effort for less meat, though.

On the flock of birds bit, I was meaning that with FoW, it's not much to tell a flock of fleeing birds from a flock of birds just flying by. Unless you're implementing that birds only take flight to disturbances that a colony should take interest in.