Y' know Randy doesn't like you and he can kill you way more than Cassie early game, but if you have early game down Cassie is more lethal in the late game.
Been playing a permadeath colony in the Jungle flats for three years. Have always had the 'poor colony' modifier. And now Cassie wants me gone. Enough diseases to eliminate 2 of my colonists. One of whom had malaria, plague and sleeping sickness simultaneously.
Coupled with near daily raids at this point it got my pop so low the 'wanderer joins' event triggered.
My beautifully lush jungle now looks like a wasteland. Hardly any trees. Grass covers all and barely hides the mounds of bones everywhere.
Only half the research is done.
And now three people have mechanites. And this is why I stocked meds. Welp, they ain't getting off this rock at this rate. It was a cool turretless bunker base while it lasted.
that is the core problem of this game though, seeing turrets as bad but requiring them to survive for long. Never played on cassie after my first time learning cause randy is god of creating havoc yet still giving a chance to live forever
Yeah already played up a randy extreme run though (Again no turrets) something like 30 colonists and really good gear for all. Only thing that are tough is ship parts (because of the colony's ungodly opulence) and I only got three total after 5 years.
Never got that far with Cassie this build. I stopped playing for now, but I can see the writing on the wall. I doubt I'll be able to pull out of this disease spiral. More than half the population sick + the ones that have died have been invariably my high skilled crafters and growers. Only one good doc left. With the design I built, turrets can't be slapped on even though I just scraped some steel and plasteel together from traders. And my artist died from disease and a brain injury 78 work from completion of a large marble sculpture (the rage intensified).
Never give up. Never surrender.
I was unprepared for my first infestation, but after ragequitting (that's SAVE&exit in permadeath) I remembered I have just looted handgrenades. They worked great.
Quote from: makapse on April 30, 2016, 01:00:01 AM
that is the core problem of this game though, seeing turrets as bad but requiring them to survive for long.
That's not really a problem with the game. The fact that you dislike something does not make it a "problem".
Reminder: healroot is all you need against disease. I hope you guys aren't wasting medkits on disease/injury; you only need them for surgeries.
Quote from: Thane on April 30, 2016, 12:48:38 AM
Y' know Randy doesn't like you and he can kill you way more than Cassie early game, but if you have early game down Cassie is more lethal in the late game.
I won't be so sure... 3 raids in 2 days, one after another. 110-man melee pirate raid, 192-man normal pirate raid, now it's 157-man sapper raid.
http://i.imgur.com/ddCv6LO.png
http://i.imgur.com/bIzfmxU.jpg
Which year is that ?
5509
Quote from: Shurp on April 30, 2016, 08:01:36 AM
Reminder: healroot is all you need against disease. I hope you guys aren't wasting medkits on disease/injury; you only need them for surgeries.
Plague can be kinda lethal if healed 100% with herbs...
Randy all the way. I don't like predictability and to me Cassandra feels like I'm signing a pact for certain doom, more so than with Randy. It's a mental thing.
Anyway, maybe it's just luck but in the last few colonies I had, Randy really showered me with gifts: Steel, about a hundred herbal medicines, of course the sky meat, and one time even uranium. Just now like 30 gold dropped from space. Randy literally gave me a golden shower, and I love him for exactly that kinda thing.
Over 30 Medicine fell from the sky while my people were recovering from their second infestation.
Cassie's predictability got to me. I never really found her lethal. I make use of weapons and tactics. Combined with later game, it was almost a joke. Well placed ambush locations would sometimes have them running without losing so much as a doorway or getting a scratch. If you rely on an automated defense system, it eventually falls. Turret range means finite defenses in an exposed and fixed location.
It is worse in that regards. Randy is the only one who has put me close to death since I have really started learning the game. RNG god of randy gave me back to back raids, then a siege while half the colony had sleeping sickness and whole colony was malaria. Came out of it, but was not pretty.
Can someone please specify why would Cassandra be harder ? The things OP mentions happen on Randy too, for example Poppy got Sensory Mechanites AND Fibrous Mechanites, and at one point had Plague or Flu as the third disease. 2-3 people in my 8 person colony are sick at all times.
Does the medication even matter for diseases?
Anyway, that's why I like the mods that add bionic organs. Glittertech kidneys and you practically don't need any medical treatment.
Also, Vaporisor, you can build in such a way that 1.you can't see your turrets from out of range, and 2.anywhere you can take cover, there's a big old Deadfall.
I remember a literal killbox I made once. I specifically built a building to deconstruct it and place a single wooden wall in the center to hold up a good chunk of roof. The plan was to collapse it.
...It didn't actually WORK, but still.
Quote from: hector212121 on April 30, 2016, 01:33:54 PM
Does the medication even matter for diseases?
Anyway, that's why I like the mods that add bionic organs. Glittertech kidneys and you practically don't need any medical treatment.
Also, Vaporisor, you can build in such a way that 1.you can't see your turrets from out of range, and 2.anywhere you can take cover, there's a big old Deadfall.
I remember a literal killbox I made once. I specifically built a building to deconstruct it and place a single wooden wall in the center to hold up a good chunk of roof. The plan was to collapse it.
...It didn't actually WORK, but still.
I think medication does matter for diseases. Sterility and condition of treatment all "seem" to affect the rate of immunity gain, but would need a modder or programmer to confirm how that works.
Also, roof collapse traps can work, I had one that was a bit of fun :D
I had an entry through overhead mountains. It passed through a big room full of rubble. To either side was pillboxes of sorts where my guys would shoot. Raiders would take cover in hallway by rubble.
My guys knocked out a few wood wall a few squares away resulting in the mountain falling right on that central hallway :3 I deleted that world, maybe I should rebuild it as a how to ^.^
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 30, 2016, 01:32:40 PM
Can someone please specify why would Cassandra be harder ? The things OP mentions happen on Randy too, for example Poppy got Sensory Mechanites AND Fibrous Mechanites, and at one point had Plague or Flu as the third disease. 2-3 people in my 8 person colony are sick at all times.
Cassie works more on a gradual increase in challenge. Because of this she will constantly ramp up and as you get into the late game threats will more and more tend to be major ones.
Randy is, well, Randy. He can be evil and devious, or he can do nothing for a season and a half, or just send in a few mad squirrels.
Cassie will send a major threat every 2-4 days no ifs ands, or buts. It's more of an attrition thing than anything. Cassie will consistently try to break you the best she can later in the game, while Randy may not care about you at all. Then shower you with 'love' all in the span of three days.
There is a PSA about meds and diseases. Use healroot.
As for the storytellers.. yeah. Randy beats Cassie by a mile in lategame. Cassie's late-game event que is just more and more headache until you leave the planet.
Had 300 healroot in stock when this last hump came about. I was in the jungle so Meds were an absolute necessity. Had two 9x9s planted with the stuff.
On the bight sideColony is back to chipper. The thing is I am going turretless which made the mid game absolutely infuriating with Cassie. I have successfully mitigated my wealth to colonist ratio and have plasteel doors instead of steel on the perimeter now. Might switch to Randy as I move from the early and mid game to the late game.
It looks like the bunker will be around for a while longer.
(Note:the perimeter has 40 doors and lots of areas for cross fire. That plus regularly burning the perimeter makes for a pretty good defense)
Quote from: makapse on April 30, 2016, 01:00:01 AM
that is the core problem of this game though, seeing turrets as bad but requiring them to survive for long. Never played on cassie after my first time learning cause randy is god of creating havoc yet still giving a chance to live forever
this is actually a valid point.
i've played both turretless playthrus and killbox playthrus.. but killbox still definitely comes out on top for longevity.
the thing with players using killboxes is that, they are NOT restricted to only use killboxes.
they can apply the same strategies/tactics of turretless players like heading out and ambushing the enemy, using shield bait tactics, etc.. to lower the enemy count and then retreat to a killbox if the threat is too large to handle.
a killbox is just another tool in their arsenal.
---------------
meanwhile the devs seem to be trying to pull people away from using turrets, but the recruitment difficulty + permanent injuries + surgery failure + increasing enemy numbers combo eventually takes its toll against turretless gameplay.
i think the only way a turretless playthru will have a prolonged run is if the player chose extreme biomes like very cold ice sheets or very hot extreme deserts.
edit :
case in point :
(http://i.imgur.com/RQhSE1B.jpg)
map is temperate forest. average temp is a cozy 21c. randy challenge. but to spice things up i spawned 3000pt raids one after another for like 6 times through the debug mode.
outcome?
i only lost 5 turrets. 4 of which are part of my exploding turret traps so their destruction was inevitable. there were zero casualties or injuries to my pawns throughout the rapid 6 sequence of raids. i could've continued with the experiment but my troops wanted to have a party.. so i was like yea dudes, go and chill.
anyways, the point is that a killbox-less colony would've taken massive injuries having to deal with all of that.. it's doable, but those injuries will eventually take it's toll.
I once got malaria in winter. Guess Ludeon don't know you get malaria from female mosquitos. :P
O.o That kill box is half the size of my base....
Excuse me I must build some redoubts... How exactly would I post a picture btw? Never could figure that out on this thing.
There isn't really alot of recourse when it comes to defense in extreme-late game with Cassie. Even if you keep your wealth low, the raids will eventually overwhelm you.
You don't play long games with Cassie. She isn't there to moderate your colony forever, she's there to push you off the planet.
Quote from: keylocke on April 30, 2016, 11:24:40 PM
the thing with players using killboxes is that, they are NOT restricted to only use killboxes.
they can apply the same strategies/tactics of turretless players like heading out and ambushing the enemy, using shield bait tactics, etc.. to lower the enemy count and then retreat to a killbox if the threat is too large to handle.
That's not completely true.
Turrets use lots of components. Crafting equipment takes lots of components. Before mid-late game, that is until you have surplus money and trade ships arriving, you don't have very many components. Until mid-late game, turrets and equipment compete for the same scarce resource.
For similar reason, if Tynan ever adds a second winning condition, it should be something that doesn't use plasteel. For example to get the permanent colony win you would have to survive 7 years. Then you get a choice - use plasteel for the ship and win earlier, or use plasteel for turrets, power armor and charge rifles but then there's no quick way out for you.
Another winning condition could be conquering a local Mechanoid hive, X-COM style.
Cassandra difficulty grows constantly. and it never goes easier.
and ofc this is calculated my many things, including colony wealth.
so... kill a Thrumbo early on, have it's horn and fur lying around or sell it for a load of silver... and your difficulty will get a huge spike right away and won't go down again (just an example)
Quote from: b0rsuk on May 01, 2016, 05:00:18 AM
Quote from: keylocke on April 30, 2016, 11:24:40 PM
the thing with players using killboxes is that, they are NOT restricted to only use killboxes.
they can apply the same strategies/tactics of turretless players like heading out and ambushing the enemy, using shield bait tactics, etc.. to lower the enemy count and then retreat to a killbox if the threat is too large to handle.
That's not completely true.
Turrets use lots of components. Crafting equipment takes lots of components. Before mid-late game, that is until you have surplus money and trade ships arriving, you don't have very many components. Until mid-late game, turrets and equipment compete for the same scarce resource.
For similar reason, if Tynan ever adds a second winning condition, it should be something that doesn't use plasteel. For example to get the permanent colony win you would have to survive 7 years. Then you get a choice - use plasteel for the ship and win earlier, or use plasteel for turrets, power armor and charge rifles but then there's no quick way out for you.
Another winning condition could be conquering a local Mechanoid hive, X-COM style.
who says you need to
craft your own guns? most of my guns are scavenged from raids, meanwhile the rest of the useless guns are smelted.. that's how i get a crapload of steel even on a flat map.
same thing with plasteel which i usually smelt from melee weapons (i keep a tribal faction hostile) and from disassembling mechanoids..
so a killbox is practically a steel + plasteel factory. ;D
you usually get more steel + plasteel than the amount of turrets you lose. (depends on your killbox design)
I think the problem lies within the player's dislike for their favourite colonists having injuries and such, scaring players off to killboxes and such to protect them. I'm one of the cheatiest people I know when it comes to these kinds of games, but I've been forcing myself to just go with what happens, and it's quite fun.
I think if you want people to be good fighters, research the guns and armor and then craft them for an army. It'll take maybe a little over a year to get a full army going, and that combined with turret defenses and walls can easily protect any colony for a while. Just remember to keep growing the population and focus on their skills, so that you'll always have a wave of fighters on the fly.
Quote from: linkfanpc on May 01, 2016, 12:04:23 AM
I once got malaria in winter. Guess Ludeon don't know you get malaria from female mosquitos. :P
Space malaria. Any time things don't make coherent sense, put "space" in front of the issue. Solves everything. 8)
Quote from: cultist on May 04, 2016, 09:29:26 AM
Quote from: linkfanpc on May 01, 2016, 12:04:23 AM
I once got malaria in winter. Guess Ludeon don't know you get malaria from female mosquitos. :P
Space malaria. Any time things don't make coherent sense, put "space" in front of the issue. Solves everything. 8)
"AAAH, MY SPACE ARMOR!" "We get it, you're from space"
Quote from: Thane on May 01, 2016, 01:05:26 AM
How exactly would I post a picture btw? Never could figure that out on this thing.
First step is to take the picture & upload it to a hosting site.
Then ya click the little picture icon in the top left, below the ['B']old button.
You should now have something like this:
[img][/img]From there, copy & paste the url of your image to the space between the two end-brackets, like so:
[img]http://i.imgur.com/FM4j8TQ.png[/img]And then, if you want to be
extra-considerate, type in 'width= (less than 1600)' right after the img, for example:
[img width=800]http://i.imgur.com/FM4j8TQ.png[/img]The finished result:
(http://i.imgur.com/FM4j8TQ.png)
Quote from: keylocke on April 30, 2016, 11:24:40 PM
anyways, the point is that a killbox-less colony would've taken massive injuries having to deal with all of that.. it's doable, but those injuries will eventually take it's toll.
I think this is a good explanation of how injuries are real issue with turret vs turret-less play. Any battle will cause some attrition of your forces. If a battle blows up your turrets, you just build more. If the battle burns off the eyelids of your colonists, you're screwed.
Growing replacement limbs and organs should be a standard feature in the game -- albeit one difficult to obtain and requiring a different research and resource tree from other technologies.
And on another note:
Quote from: cultist on May 04, 2016, 09:29:26 AM
Space malaria. Any time things don't make coherent sense, put "space" in front of the issue. Solves everything. 8)
"Space manhunting turtles"
Hmmm, certainly makes more sense than the ordinary sort.
Quote from: Thane on May 01, 2016, 01:05:26 AM
O.o That kill box is half the size of my base....
Excuse me I must build some redoubts... How exactly would I post a picture btw? Never could figure that out on this thing.
ah, i upload my pics to imgur. it let's me do that without the hassle of logging in. ;D
as for the killbox size. turret range is around 25 tiles max, so i mostly keep that range in mind. a killbox doesn't even need to be a square. (i actually think killboxes with diagonal sides are much better)
anyways, i think the important things for killboxes are :
-the range of the turrets to the chokepoint entrance. (turrets need to be close enough to hit enemies as soon as they enter killzone, but far enough that melee enemies cannot reach them before dying)
-the corners leading to the chokepoint must have some obstacles to prevent enemies from using those corner walls as a cover. to prevent them from shoot at you without entering the killzone. a t-shaped sandbag leading to the chokepoint usually does the trick. (i think this is the most important part)
-adding obstacles in the killzone allows you to slow enemy movement and keep them longer in the killzone.
-alternating stone walls and turrets would prevent chain explosion of turrets. those walls can also provide cover for your colonists as they attack enemies or repair damaged turrets.
etc..
Quote from: Grizzlyadamz on May 04, 2016, 08:06:40 PM
The finished result:
(http://i.imgur.com/FM4j8TQ.png)
Do raiders come from the right size?
If so, why would they exposed themself to the turret if they can go north or south?
No, they come from the left. Note the waffle. Also note the wooden wall that I assume he cuts down or they blow down.
Thanks very much for the design and the info. I just test it (whithout time to install turret (nor the attractive wood wall), so I put shooters inside the turrets boxes, and it completely wipe clean the incoming raid (much faster than my usual "wait in the town center and play hide and seek").
- Hey Bud, what's this structure the farmers are building?
- donno Jack. Let's see and while we're at it, let's raid the colony!
- Awrel, Lucky, Jolly, William, Luke, Jumper, coming ?
- Ay boss.
- Jack it's now a cork shape monument, it's a ... <gargl>
- What Bud? Can ear you, too much shooting. Oh I see it's a .. <..>
- (etc)
(http://tof.canardpc.com/preview/6de09a86-d7aa-4b6d-b551-7112e8e72f28.jpg) (http://tof.canardpc.com/view/6de09a86-d7aa-4b6d-b551-7112e8e72f28.jpg)
Do raiders tend to take the shortest path? (yellow)
(I have a poor man set up with less turrets..)