Crime and Punishment in Rimworld.

[keylocke]

rimworld is all about the stories.

each colonist is not just a faceless pawn, each event is not just a gameplay mechanic.
rather, all of these things combined, slowly builds up the story of your colony.

as i've suggested in another thread about categorizing and keeping 2 basic traits (1 physical, 1 mental), and traits that only activates when that person has a high or low moral (mood traits).

this time i was thinking of making that system "deeper". so rather than just watching people go berserk or wandering off when on low morale. the mood traits coupled with the basic traits will trigger events that are "unlocked" by the right combination of basic traits and mood traits.

so some colonist are more prone to violent "crimes" (such as murder, arson, sabotage, etc) than others. while others are more prone to (suicide, leaving, shut-in, etc.)

while morale can also affect the effectiveness of tasks based on traits, while some moods might even overtake the "actions" set in the overview of tasks (such as refusing to work when low on morale). so it makes the morale system much deeper.

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as for punishment : this is the tricky part.

right now the system in rimworld allows you to "capture" anyone who have had their "mental breakdowns" and then try to recruit them again after imprisonment. i thought this was kinda weird.

usually, violent crimes such as "rape" or "murder" is usually answered with a death penalty. while events such as "colonist wandering off aimlessly" doesn't seem to merit imprisonment. so i think the whole "crime and punishment" system still needs to be fleshed out more completely.

so i was thinking that every member of the colony has a "like / dislike" meter for every other member of the colony. and whenever a colonist performs a "crime", the tally of people who "likes / dislikes" them will determine the severity of their punishment. (execution, banishment, sold into slavery, imprisonment for a period of time, etc)

i was thinking around this line, since rimworld colonies feels more like an anarchist commune.. since there aren't really any "laws" or "charters" to follow, other than the tyranny of the majority.

but adding these things makes the stories in rimworld more dynamic. since it adds an inter-personal drama between every member of the colony.

there will be feuds, rivalries, drama, grudges.. lol.
clashing personalities will collide.

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edit :

i forgot to add. background traits should also take into effect when it comes to their actions and personalities.

ie : some people from more advanced worlds can be more condescending against people who came from midworlds, etc..

which should also add further layers of complexity for inter-personal relationships between other people.

edit 2 : how does the punishment system works?

* they detain the "offender"
* then a message pops out "the colonists are mulling over what to do.."
* after a few hours, another message pops out. "the colonists have decided to do X"
* then it's up to the player if they want to "veto" this decision, (doing this will give negative "injustice" moodlet, while approving this decision will give a positive "justice is served" boost). it's up to the players if they want to take a risk between the wants of the few vs the wants of the many.

edit 3 : how does like / dislike work?

* each time colonists interact with each other, they could get a like, dislike, or remain neutral with each other, based on compatibility and combination of basic traits.
* however, this interaction is also affected by which mood trait is activated by current morale.
* this way, people that usually get along nicely, might piss each other off when on low morale, but easily become fast friends when on high morale.

edit 4 : calculating colonist's "importance" value :

* each trait has a positive or a negative value (based on severity or usefulness of trait).
* all "incapable of" traits have negative value.
* these values are then added to the total skill point value of that colonist (cooking, shooting, etc)
* these values factor in the calculation of the "importance" value, which determines which people are more "desirable" to keep in the colony. this should also factor in the equation when determining which punishment to choose for a crime that colonist have committed.

ie : sample formula : if the "importance" value + "like" value is greater than > "crime" value + "dislike" value, then punishment is less severe (there's a list of punishment ranging from light to severe), as compared to otherwise.

this reflects the notion that important/skillful and "like-able" or charismatic people can easier get away with more severe crimes than unskilled / dislike-able people that everybody hates.

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it's mostly about :
* categorization of traits (background, basic, mood).
* which combination of traits will unlock what events or interactions.
* and then adding a "like/dislike" meter for each colonist.

it might take a while, but once in place. relationships, crime & punishment, etc.. all of that becomes accessible to us.

and the "story" aspect of rimworld will become much more richer for it.

[ITypedThis]

Meh.

Always fun to just knock 'em over the head and toss them prison.

[ITypedThis]

Haha! But seriously though.

I like to see my colonies as a hive-mind glitter-world-in-the-making, where everyone knows what would be best for the colony and strives to reach it. If something should happen that would require enforcement, action would be taken on spot with a collective acceptance of a necessary evil.

[keylocke]

Meh.

Always fun to just knock 'em over the head and toss them prison.

yea, and then execute them and cook them for dinner.. i do that too.. 

but ya know.. sometimes i want to see inter-personal drama between colonists.
i want THEM to decide who gets to get sold off into slavery or who deserves to become the next meat pie..

i want THEM to decide, not me. 

[Ink.]

I would like more events that happen that could be considered "crimes" and a like/dislike meter. I just don't think it should really be up to what happens to them. For example, say a conflict where Bob murders Jim because he believe Jim robbed him. If Jim robbed him, I wouldn't punish Bob for taking care of Jim. But if Jim didn't and Bob was in the wrong, Bob's being imprisoned and depending on who exactly Jim was to the colony would decide if I would kill him or not.

I think it's part of the players job to develop the systems and policies in place for behavior, hence why random behavior between colonists (Robberies, Murder, Rape, Arson, etc) should exist but it should be up to the player to decide. That being said, if you want any crime to be punishable by human sacrifice, it should be possible.

I think Law Enforcement and Order in Rimworld could be a really good step, especially if eventually it could be a matter order/security vs dictatorship.

[keylocke]

I would like more events that happen that could be considered "crimes" and a like/dislike meter. I just don't think it should really be up to what happens to them. For example, say a conflict where Bob murders Jim because he believe Jim robbed him. If Jim robbed him, I wouldn't punish Bob for taking care of Jim. But if Jim didn't and Bob was in the wrong, Bob's being imprisoned and depending on who exactly Jim was to the colony would decide if I would kill him or not.

actually that's the interesting part about "justice".

for example, in the real world we have laws and lawyers and lawmakers.. but even then, celebrities, rich people, politicians, etc.. can usually get away with more crimes than the average joe.

which is why i believe that in a lawless society, "justice" is a rather subjective term that is imposed by the "majority" for anyone that falls away from their favor, while charismatic or important people are generally tolerated for their "indiscretions".

ie : Politicians can usually get away with a few million of "misused" government funding, for as long as they are able to maintain the support of the people, as compared to a thief who got caught red handed while stealing a measly few cash.

which is why i thought the pseudo formula : 

("importance" + "like") - ("crime" + "dislike") = punishment level

seems kinda appropriate for a simulation of a very basic "justice" system that takes into account the interactions between every member of the colony.

ie : a well liked "important" person with high skills, good traits, etc.. tends to get lower punishment than an unskilled person with plenty of bad traits that everybody hates.

this makes the composition of the members of the colony thrive based on a society-based "natural selection". which again, is quite similar to real society.

but consider this also..

in a colony full of psychopathic cannibals. the "good guy" becomes the odd one out.
guess which one of them becomes a meat-pie, the next moment they have a mental breakdown? 

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edit : i forgot to address the situation you've raised.

in the case of Bob murders Jim, 'coz of theft (or whatever). the verdict for that lies on several factors like : "how much does the other people like Bob?", "is Bob considered an important person due to his high skills and good traits?" so...

(Bob's "importance" value + Bob's "like" value) - (Bob's "crime" value + Bob's "dislike" value) = level of Bob's punishment.

edit 2 : of course you can still "veto" whatever verdict the vox populi decides, and just choose whatever punishment (or lack thereof) you think is "appropriate", but the people will get on a bad mood for that choice of "injustice"..

and then we get plenty more drama story situations..  struggles and dilemmas, plots and schemes, and all around moral ambiguity ensues..   

[Geokinesis]

I really don't think rape should be added into the game.

[keylocke]

incapacitate + strip + melee attack animation = rape ? ? ?

lol. that was a joke.

although in fairness. even women can also "rape" men.
it's just that men might actually enjoy getting "raped" by a woman?

i dunno.. i just gave that as an example of a crime out of many other possible crimes i've stated.

i'm mostly interested in the crime and punishment system, inter-personal interactions, etc..

[Tynan]

I really don't think rape should be added into the game.

Yeah, that's not on the to-do list.

Other ideas on crime and punishment are interesting though.

[Geokinesis]

I really don't think rape should be added into the game.

Yeah, that's not on the to-do list.

I'm glad.

As for ideas on C&P it depends on how much interaction is wanted;

For instance would you want it so colonists have traits that make them steal and if so how would that impact others, currently colonists don't own anything (barring their own clothes).

Maybe the thief would steal from the general stockpile and carry round the item (like raiders carry silver) so it would be a crime against the whole colony, this could allow for something like building a stock and having the criminal put in it and other colonists getting a +mood from 'Justice'.

Although it does have problems in that how would the colonists notice? Would you need skilled social colonists as detectives or even judges for trials? If it was based on traits the criminal would reoffend and there would be no way to stop it. Unless you research rehabilitation that doesn't give a +mood for Justice but does remove the kleptomaniac behaviour to simulate the effectiveness of rehab vs retribution.

[Evul]

I really don't think rape should be added into the game.

Yeah, that's not on the to-do list.

Other ideas on crime and punishment are interesting though.

Agree with Ty.
Also it is somthing that people might take offensive.
And the game is kind of dark as it is. No need of making it offensive also.
So no more talk about that.
-Mod out.

Back on topic!
Criminal stuff sounds cool! And a punishing ability whould defiently be a cool idea.
(also like above)

[keylocke]

thanks for the input from Tynan and Evul.
agreed, end of rape discussion.

anyways, as for this part :

For instance would you want it so colonists have traits that make them steal and if so how would that impact others, currently colonists don't own anything (barring their own clothes).

i was mostly thinking it's like an "event" thing that can be triggered by the right circumstance.

ie :

* Jim has low morale which activated his "greedy" mood trait, which can unlock several related crime events.
* when a "stealing" crime event is triggered, this will path Jim to the nearest stockpile.
* then a pop-up appears : Jim was caught stealing from the stockpile by Bob (maybe the one who usually "catches" the offender is the person that hates them the most). an X amount of stuffs was stolen (the total value stolen determines the severity of the theft).
* whenever a crime event is triggered, a function similar to the hunting function is activated, and the nearest colonist capable of hunting is automatically tasked to detain the offender towards the nearest prison. (if there's no prison available, an alert pops up to remind the players of this)
* then the other colonists would "mull" over their decision for a few hours then announce their proposed "verdict", based on the crime & punishment pseudo formula.
* but it's still up to the player if they wish to follow this verdict or veto against it.

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anyways, i think the other crime events can be similar to this.

when a "crime" event is triggered. the offender will path towards an appropriate crime "target" (murder, theft, arson, etc). a pop-up appears describing the offender's crime and other flavor text.

then the offender is detained, and after a few moments, a verdict is passed by the colonists.

if people like Jim so much, they allowed him to get away with his crime. people who dislikes Jim (ie : Bob) might end up murdering Jim when Bob gets a mental breakdown. (the target of crimes is often the person that they hate the most)

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edit : for crimes of murder

the (melee skill or shooting skill + weapon dps + armor) of the prospective murderer is compared against the murder target (melee skill or shooting skill + weapon dps + armor - "readiness").

(note : "readiness" is just to check if the murder target is in an "incapacitated" state, ie : sleeping or sick in bed)

if the murderer has higher "combat value" than the murder target, then the murder attempt has a higher chance of succeeding. (either killing the target or just severely injuring them)

however, if the murder target has a higher "combat value", then it's also possible that they end up killing the murderer wannabe and become guilty of a homicide via "self defense".

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ie : what if the murder target (ie : Clark) was disliked by everyone? when Clark managed to defend against David's murder attempt and killed David in self-defense..

will the other colonists actually side with Clark, even if they hate him so much?

once again, that situation is ripe for more drama story opportunity there.

[Johnny Masters]

I dunno if i should be glad or sad that people think rape is darker than blowing people up, shooting their eyesockets off, capturing survivors and killing them in cold blood only to then eat their cooked meat, or selling an incapacitated friend as slave, for a couple of silver.

Not that i want my colonists to rape each other, but i also don't want them to get mangled to death by a hundred cannibals nor any other type of bad event, although they do make good drama. But i guess i understand it's a touchy subject, at least regarding the nonsensical PG system where sex (lovey sex, not rape) is bad and blowing heads off is not. But that's a cultural discussion not suited for this place, also its your game and your forum. Discussion end

[keylocke]

ok. i got more ideas.

crime detection : rather than crimes automatically getting caught (as i said before), it should rather work based on probability, along with several factors.

* severity of the crime : the more severe the level of crime committed the higher the chance of getting caught
* "dislike" value : the more people hates the offender, the higher the chance of getting caught. (usually by the same person who hates them the most, mainly 'coz their "suspicion" is higher)..

so something like...

crime detection probability = severity of crime + dislike value

so when a "crime event" is triggered by the right circumstance, it then calls the "crime detection" probability function, then it finally calls the "crime & punishment" function.

all of these can have their own pop-up messages and flavor text.

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as for what constitutes as a "crime"...

again, this term is quite subjective.

for psychopath cannibals, cannibalism is "normal". but for people that aren't cannibals, eating human flesh can be considered as a "crime" or just plain offensive..

so actions that are considered as a "crime" are based upon a "consensus" of the majority based upon  their most prevalent traits.

ie :

* in a colony of a cannibal majority : cannibalism is not a crime..
* in a colony of thieving majority : stealing is not a crime..
* in a colony of murderer majority : murder is not a crime..

it's all based on the "consensus", which can easily change based on colony member composition.

ie :

* if you started out with 3 cannibals as your starting colonist, then the cannibals have the majority
* but as you play along and recruited more "non-cannibal" people, the cannibals might lose the majority, and then "cannibalism" becomes a "crime".

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notes :

* some crime events (like cannibalism) can easily be prevented by simply not butchering humans into meat. (edit : or perhaps cannibals can directly eat fresh human corpses without needing to butcher them?)
* some form of crimes (again, like cannibalism) are also a "constant" thing rather than activated via mental breakdown. (or maybe not. needs to be tested for best results)


anyways, i like the concept of this internal power-struggle between people. some people are better at making rapport, some people are natural outcasts, some people are smooth criminals (lol), etc..

the story of rimworld does not always have to be based upon "external" threats.
sometimes the greatest threat of all to their survival, is each other.. 

[johiah]

What happens if the entire colony is pshycopathic bloodlusting cannibals? what would the rules be then? punishment for NOT eating someone today= 2 days in prison without human meat.