Unstable build feedback thread

[Polder]

I have not built killboxes, but instead made a town style colony with several buildings. Raiders can walk in the space between the buildings. The buildings have 2 granite auto doors and sand bags to give me the opportunity to exploit cover and flanking. During a raid some of my pawns will fight from an excellent cover (behind wall plus a sandbag), while the rest move to flank the enemy. Needless to say I don't like the door hitpoint reduction, and that's why I use granite autodoors since I need tough and fast doors. I think to prevent the open door -> shoot -> close door -> wait a moment -> repeat cheese, an AI change would have been more appropriate (if the raider was attacking an enemy standing next to a door, and said door closes and breaks line of sight to the target, the raider should have a good chance to switch to attack that door).

I do want some turrets but so much research is required to unlock them, and on NB starts, it takes me several seasons before I start researching anything.

[rdshen]

Also, considering it, I'm not seeing a ton of reports about killboxes. Why is that? Are the new raid strategies making it no longer worth it? Or are y'all just trying to do something different? Have killboxes been successfully reduced to a non-dominating (but still effective) strategy?

Killboxes aren't the most effective thing anymore. Their main use as far as I can tell is to take down centipedes and manhunter swarms. Thing is I've found just stacking melee pawns in a line and ranged behind them works just as well against manhunter. Centipedes are nasty though, and getting twelve of them to wobble through a one block sandbag is useful. It's the positioning that is useful though, not the turrets tbqh. My latest killbox was one autocannon and four regular, because the colonists brought plenty of firepower on their own.

I've been trying bastion defenses lately. Think a bunch of acute angles of walls/sandbags with doors along the sides and turrets in the pockets. It works well, except I have to build a killboxey half-dome around the back end of the turret to get it to be the most effective. However even without the back wall, I find bastion defenses to be generally more successful than killboxes. I had a sapper raid show up, and they spent 5 hours getting killed trying to walk around my turret defenses because there was about 30 degrees open on the far side of the base for them. Meanwhile even a multi sapper raid with a couple dozen molotov/grenades in three groups got met with ample defenses on all sides.

So to summarize, killboxes aren't good for remotely as much as they were before. They're best in class for certain threats. There may be more viable defensive fortification designs now.

[Oblitus]

Done some weapon comparation. In my experience, you generally want to use either sniping weapon or something versatile, read assault rifle. SMGs and shotguns are pretty useless by design - they are essentially melee weapons that can't be used in melee. So - assault rifle, charge rifle, sniper rifle, charge lance, bolt-action rifle, or great bow.

Code Select Expand

AR CR SR CL BA GB
Range 30,9 21,9 44,9 36,9 36,9 31,9
Damage 11 15 25 32 18 18
Stopping 0 0 1,5 1,5 1,5 2,5
Warmup 0,8 1,5 3 1,7 1,4 1,5
Cooldown 1,46 1,46 2,83 2,7 1,8 1,4
Acc Touch 70 67 50 65 65 65
Acc Short 87 76 70 80 80 85
Acc Medium 77 65 86 90 90 75
Acc Long 64 50 88 80 80 50
Bulk 1 1 2 2 1 1
Results:
Assault rifle is vastly superior over charge rifle. It has 48% more range (making it able to compete with bows), twice faster warm-up, much more accurate at cost of 26% less damage per shot. But due to faster warm-up AR has better DPS output.
For sniper rifle, range and long-range accuracy are main stats. That 8 range alone is enough to choose sniper rifle over charge lance. Sure, charge lance has much faster warm-up, but if you want fast warm-up you'll be better with bolt-action. Exactly same accuracy, exactly same range, half damage, but 40% better rate of fire, and five time cheaper so you can easily get excellent one.

[stretch611]

The new dialog options definitely makes for some interesting conversations...



[attachment deleted due to age]

[Boboid]

Done some weapon comparation. In my experience, you generally want to use either sniping weapon or something versatile, read assault rifle. SMGs and shotguns are pretty useless by design - they are essentially melee weapons that can't be used in melee. So - assault rifle, charge rifle, sniper rifle, charge lance, bolt-action rifle, or great bow.

Code Select Expand

AR CR SR CL BA GB
Range 30,9 21,9 44,9 36,9 36,9 31,9
Damage 11 15 25 32 18 18
Stopping 0 0 1,5 1,5 1,5 2,5
Warmup 0,8 1,5 3 1,7 1,4 1,5
Cooldown 1,46 1,46 2,83 2,7 1,8 1,4
Acc Touch 70 67 50 65 65 65
Acc Short 87 76 70 80 80 85
Acc Medium 77 65 86 90 90 75
Acc Long 64 50 88 80 80 50
Bulk 1 1 2 2 1 1
Results:
Assault rifle is vastly superior over charge rifle. It has 48% more range (making it able to compete with bows), twice faster warm-up, much more accurate at cost of 26% less damage per shot. But due to faster warm-up AR has better DPS output.
For sniper rifle, range and long-range accuracy are main stats. That 8 range alone is enough to choose sniper rifle over charge lance. Sure, charge lance has much faster warm-up, but if you want fast warm-up you'll be better with bolt-action. Exactly same accuracy, exactly same range, half damage, but 40% better rate of fire, and five time cheaper so you can easily get excellent one.

Did you do all this manually? There's an in-game weapons chart that will show you all of this.. and more besides.
For example I can tell you that the Charge Rifle does ~14% more dps than the AR at Short(15) range with 22% Ap compared to 16%. ARs simply do not have a higher dps at any range except at those which the CR can not fire.
Additionally some of your numbers are off. The charge rifle's warmup is 0.9s, not 1.5.
The range increase from 22 to 31 is 40.9%.. not 48%.

Also a lot of your conclusions are inherently flawed because you've ignored the armor penetration of every weapon. Sniper rifles for example will have their shots affected 19.2% more often vs a 100% armor flak vest compared to a charge lance.
You can't totally disregard the entire armor mechanic

I agree with some of your conclusions, but your math is all wonky.
I briefly thought I was taking crazy pills and that everything I knew was a lie

Edit: Also you've got to take into consideration various break points. Charge Lances do 16 damage even when mitigated by armor. Bolt action rifles do 9. That can be the difference between having a working(if damaged) liver and being instantly dead.

[Eldarin1]

Observations of a noob:

The "hunting a predator" text now includes the %chance for revenge. Cool.

Lamp, sunlamps, and possibly other items do not list the power consumption in the builder info. They have to be built first, making it hard to plan the power grid. Not cool 😉

Day 11 I get my first item quest: AI persona core guarded by 2 sythers. 4 pawns, 2 guns and 1 pawn non-violent. No chance! Seems like this event was way too strong for a 1st event.

Caravan formation screen is way cooler, with info about pregnant animals.

Pawns seemed to form a caravan much faster, but it is very early game. Seemed faster though.

Herbivore food consumption seems off. I have 3 tame boomalope and already there is a large region without grass. Larger herds of wild animals haven't eaten half as much grass as my 3 beasts. I planted some hay in fertile soil, about 50 tiles, and it looks like they may starve before spring.

[gadjung]

Also, considering it, I'm not seeing a ton of reports about killboxes. Why is that? Are the new raid strategies making it no longer worth it? Or are y'all just trying to do something different? Have killboxes been successfully reduced to a non-dominating (but still effective) strategy?

I'd like to know, because it'll inform how I balance turrets going forward.

For me, 1.0 Did not make change in my defense set-up, mostly because i very rarely used kill-boxes.
In early game, one usually don't have resources to set them up
mid game - only time when it's viable to build but one has to have full base layout ready ( i usually don't )
late game - if You survived this long, you do not need kill-box (speaking normal-late-game, not raid-size-chrashes-my-machine-late-game)
For dealing with incidents
- Manhunter - wait this 2-3 days, while beeing safe behind walls. any other problem is managable
- sieges - either one has mortars or one has to make trip ti kill siegers, no way around
- assaults are handled one of two ways :
   1) they wait before attack - they get 3-6x8-10 volleys of incendary mortar rounds, then rest not burn goes for phase 2)
   2) immediately attack - i set up wooden walls with holes to limit range and give 'fake' cover, and place incendary mines. when raiders/tribals
       charge they stomp on some mines, when they go cover for shooting, they stomp another mines. And since it's fire, some inferno breaks out.
       Also as i saw pawns start to beat fire out if it's on tile next to them, making them stop combat for a moment
- poison/psychic ship - as assaults/as sieges depending on where ship landed and what is my gear. currently grenade kiting around ship is a way to go with one pawn against 1-3 centipides (after clearing scythers)

Calling allies for help is too big risk, sometimes turning Allied faction into Enemy, when their help (wanted or no) goes sideways.

[Polder]

Here is how I built my carefully planned base in the latest Extreme Randy NB attempt. The layout is intended to lure raiders into positions where they are easily flanked. This works OK against raiders so far, less so against manhunter packs.

I am currently struggling with food due to an ongoing volcanic winter and recent toxic fallout, and will probably have to send a caravan.

It also demonstrates that psychic soothe is giving a mood penalty.

[attachment deleted due to age]

[Oblitus]

Did you do all this manually? There's an in-game weapons chart that will show you all of this.. and more besides.
For example I can tell you that the Charge Rifle does ~14% more dps than the AR at Short(15) range with 22% Ap compared to 16%. ARs simply do not have a higher dps at any range except at those which the CR can not fire.
Additionally some of your numbers are off. The charge rifle's warmup is 0.9s, not 1.5.
The range increase from 22 to 31 is 40.9%.. not 48%.

Also a lot of your conclusions are inherently flawed because you've ignored the armor penetration of every weapon. Sniper rifles for example will have their shots affected 19.2% more often vs a 100% armor flak vest compared to a charge lance.
You can't totally disregard the entire armor mechanic

I agree with some of your conclusions, but your math is all wonky.

Warm-up is probably misplaced. If so, then yes, on short range charge rifle is slightly better. Slightly. At cost of huge range difference.

Armor penetration is derived stat that is based on damage and scales linearly with it.

I actually can disregard armor mechanic for sniper rifles. With sniper rifle you can outrange anyone without it. Not just outrange, but due to AI they usually won't even try to chase you if you shoot from large distance. Proper sniper shot is essentially a free action. Even if you miss or shot is deflected - it is not a big problem. For assault weapons - yes, it does matter. Still, armored enemies are kinda rare.

[Gfurst]

Hey Tynan agree that there is some information overflow right, so I'll try to keep just stuff that hasn't been mentioned.

• First picture was the result of incendiaries on a indoor growbed, though I agree that a situation like should quickly delve into Dante's Inferno (and holy crap do I need firefoam poppers), it felt I little odd that the open room (2 doors, 1 vent, cracked roof) was such an heat trap (+800°C), to the point where all of my base turned went into +200°C. And you know there's something wrong when a walled room with no roof is much more insulated than a open but roofed room. I beg you o review the system though I agree it wont be easy, but an easy workaround to avoid total failures like mine, is to have roof destruction upon a fire like that, so that more heat can escape.
• Second pic is my second attempt at fending of this siege, mind you I was able to fend off the first time, but the fire had got me. But this time around I was able to bait them into my defenses, and this is just to show what has been my alternative to killboxes. I have to say this setup works extremely well at least in my case (position, river crossing and surrounding mountains). But sadly this was among the very few situations where I got to use it, most of the time it either requires me to get out (mech ships and even the same siege before) or dropping by surprise right int he midst of it (raiders and in the last time 5 light mechs).
• Third pic, meet Blythe, my first medic who happens to also be a pot head, she's been going through Smokeleaf withdraw for what seems to be at least like half a year (since the end of the previous winter when smokeleaf stock ran out). Soon after I begun wake-up production, she went twice through binges, on the same day mind you, and since then fighting off wake-up addiction. Now she somehow she became a vegetable, and its been like ~30 days for smokeleaf, at least 10 days for the wake-up, and had she not been downed this whole time, she would probably have gone through the whole stock of wake-up. Like seriously this needs reviewing, I don't mind they acting like actual junkies, but going on a binge twice on the same day and coming with an ever lasting addiction really is off putting.
• Fourth pic is a small caravan that went for a opportunistic item stash right next to a jade mineral lump, both had manhunting packs (good for a change) with a side of cave bugs.  Now this has presented me it quite the logistical challenge, while I'm able to secure nutrition, set up camp and tend to their wounds properly, there is no way that I'm going carry all that jade back home. Because as you can see they're really close but with a mount range in between, this makes want to use transport pods even they may come at a hefty cost, 1 component + steel for each launcher plus the pod itself, I'm not even sure its worth it, but I'm still considering a half approach, to just transport the minerals and have the colonist walk back home. Now this brings two problems to my attention, that transport pods needs the same love the caravan interface got, and there really are too few pack animals (alpaca, dromedary, muffalo I'm aware).

[attachment deleted due to age]

[dnmr]

is there something funny going on with quest reward display? Outpost quest that happened to be on the way to a mining location said 500 silver, but dropped 2340.. Or is there a bonus reward in silver based on how many dudes you kill or something?

[Greep]

Regarding killboxes, they've honestly only ever worked in mountains, it's just most notable now.  Eventually if you did not build in a mountain your killbox would eventually fail, now it immediately fails.  Additionally cannons are very effective and provide reliable cover, that doesn't blow up while repairing in heavy armor, so they're pretty reliable against everything but melee hordes, rockets, and doomsdays.  Moveable miniturrets also provide the ability to play extreme with turrets on less mountainoous maps in the early game before you want to dedicate an area to have security buildings.  So your main concern is steel, manhunter packs, and centipedes I'm finding.


Notably the most effective killbox I've done in the past, deadfall spam in mountains, is completely dead due to armor in the midgame: the only effective killbox counter by then is cannons.  That probably remains effective, but you will need to turn them off during an infestation or manhuner pack so the bugs attack you instead of them.   Trying to layer autocannons far in back so they protect one another's minimum range surprisingly doesn't work so well:  the very frequent missed shots from the cannon will hit the other cannons causing tremendous damage.

I've also personally just grown to hate mountains by now due to the whole "area revealed" being an "oh hey there, I hear you wanted to build a mountain base.  now start a new map because this map is now worthless bwahahaha"  It's like the ohko, you lose on mountains and there's not a thng you can do about it other than testing the map seed first or making sure to mine out the whole perimeter of your mountain base first.

I can test a killbox after I finish my current game, but it's actually a lot more fun without one, the only bad thing is questing with raiding parties is just not going to happen until you get properly geared, which is very hard on a "general turret defense" with all of your steel going into cannons, cannons, and more cannons.

Side note on cannons: They are EXTREMELY LETHAL to your own troops.  I'm used to miniturrets, which actually increase your survivability because the frequenct small shots cause you to be downed in battle.  Not autocannons.  They hit something, that part is destroyed.  If it's a head, GG.  I've head 9 colony deaths so far, 5 have been cannons.

[TheMeInTeam]

SMG is a better option than sniper in most actual raid situations on high difficulties.  Even in newer 1.0 where you can't fire at melee range.  DPS output from sniper against 2.5 : 1 odds isn't nearly enough and the slow warmup/cooldown is a serious liability then.  Still useful against sieges and such, but this is not a practical weapon as more than a pot shot against sappers and quickly becomes a liability once distance is closed.

Excepting sieges, I'd feel more comfortable putting revolvers on everyone.  And yes, SMGs too.  They're still very strong when you control engagement range.

As for why killboxes aren't being discussed, I've no idea.  As I've pointed out in the balance thread, killboxes with turrets weren't *actually* a 9 strat even in the alphas, despite community opinion.  You had (and have) less expensive options that are available earlier and handle all raid types rather than most of them. 

Perhaps the raid updates have forced more people to switch tactics, especially sappers that ignore being hit by bullets to continue attempting the wall breach?

Regarding killboxes, they've honestly only ever worked in mountains, it's just most notable now.

Not true.  Main difference is that sieges are more urgent and you have drop pod raids rather than infestation.  I haven't played mountains in 1.0...do infestations that spawn there not insta-spawn megascarabs now?  Them doing that in B18 completely turned me off to mountain bases but I admit this isn't something I explored in 1.0 because it's been a bad trade prior and I haven't gotten around to testing yet.

Once you have mortars sieges still assault pretty fast on taking damage from them, leaving the main tradeoffs to be base layout and infestation vs drop pod raids.  Killboxes were never good against either of these (or sappers) and that remains true in 1.0.

[Greep]

Infestations now have a delay.  It's not a huge delay, but it's there.  The general infestation strategy is building a giant unused room so 90% of the infestation occurs there, and only building bedrooms to be 4x3 or less, and then burning out the giant room with fire, while meleeing whatever is around.  I actually only built mountain bases in b18 due to tornados lol.

Killboxes in mountains worked against basically everything but psychic ships in which case you got your sniper out and trolled some centipedes, maybe built some deadfalls outside to mess with scythers.  I don't see much of that changing, although since the economy in mountains is worse than hills by a long shot and you now need tons of steel, I'd imagine it would feel kinda balanced.

[Razzoriel]

Can we vent our frustation on the new armor mechanic here? Because if it goes to 1.0, it's a huge downgrade from B18. 50% armor being "50% chance to deflect all damage" is retarded beyond belief, unless someone can explain to me how the damage modifies the deflection chance.