[A13]Arbitration: Realistic Research - Overhaul, modpack, vehicles 06/13 v0.07

[eastwood6510]

Quick question: Are these about the correct cover values?

Fences: 25%
Chveladxcl (stick things): 35%
Earthen Ramparts: 50%
Sandbags: 60%
Parapet: 60%
Wall: 80%?

What about embrasures? 60%?

[jackarbiter]

EDIT: Also in heat wave there was no change and actually was hotter in that room. but then I saw something that was blocking cooling cell

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If you consider to make it passable than it's a good idea but you could make it also weaker so that it could be easy destroyed.

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EDIT: Framed wall still has costStuffCount 10

So the solar chimney is working for you?

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I just don't know if an earthen rampart should be able to be destroyed with gunfire... but then, should sandbags? Since it's just a 50% rampart you'd think the guy coming for you would be able to climb over it, and I don't want it to be OP even later game, but the reason I put it in originally was because you don't have a way to build sandbags early on... I think I will make it scalable, with slow pathing... dunno, I'll figure something out.

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I know i changed this but you're right, it isn't changed, so maybe I am just insane. Will fix.

I started a new map with the newest version of the mod and the problem with hauling in a loop with vehicles (carts, I don't yet have atv on the new map) is still present. The setup is for example a cooling room with a big preferred zone for food and a little critical zone for meat near the cooking table. Same problem with a little critical zone for hay outside in the chicken pen. Hay should be filled to max there and any overflow should be in the cooling room. But when hauling with carts the paws take a lot of hay in the cooling room but instead of bringing it to the chickens they just unload it a couple metres further in the same zone. Am I the only one having this problem? I really like using small critical zones near the crafting benches.

Thanks for the report, that's helpful info. I'm pretty sure what I described in the wall of text last night is the reason; I'll try to address this.

Figure out some kind of cooling in the early stages



I can't believe i just wasted 1 hour of my life

Solar chimneys are pretty early; are you not using them, or are they unusable in your biome? They are a little tricky to get running right, but with sunlight, rain, and nothing blocking them they've kept my pawns alive during heatstrokes before. I have a playthrough with pics and I'll try to post it up to the point where I use the chimney tonight.

Well, it's now happened twice. Entire colonies wiped out by heat stroke.
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Idk. Maybe my only option is having multiple research benches and multiple researchers to kind of speedrun to cooling.

Well, I just tried again. With all out rushing of making dusters and cowboy hats, only 2 out of 7 people died from this colony's heat wave.

So maybe coolers can wait after all!

Keffiyehs aren't too shabby at this either. But I hate having to have everyone rely on clothing for this. Are you in an area where you can't get enough rainfall for the solar chimneys? The reason they're in there is to prevent this type of thing, they're relatively effective at cooling with a little bit of rainfall, and they can be closed to conserve the water.

Quick question: Are these about the correct cover values?

Fences: 25%
Cheval de frise: 35%
Earthen Ramparts: 50%
Sandbags: 65%
Parapet: 65%
Embrasure: 73%

These (I edited the quoted info) are the numbers. Embrasures don't work well with higher coverage, this is the max CR put them. Not too much better than sandbags/parapets. Kindof makes parapets useless I guess. Cheval are passable. I'm thinking that maybe others of these should be passable, like the ramparts or maybe even sandbags. I'm open to suggestions as to different coverage values or different passability values.

Walls provide 100% coverage and can't be shot through, so I don't think they belong in the list.

[Grogfeld]

(...) But when hauling with carts the paws take a lot of hay in the cooling room but instead of bringing it to the chickens they just unload it a couple metres further in the same zone. Am I the only one having this problem? I really like using small critical zones near the crafting benches.

Yes, I had similar problem. When I build ammo storage. My pawn tried to haul with cart only 46 of ammo and he constantly went for that ammo and dropped it few cells away. I think it was in original BBream's mod too. I have a big stockpile area in the middle of colony so I haven't got this bug for a long time, but after I created ammo storage (which is a cool idea) near entrance my pawn went crazy. Also if you have stockpile with more cells it could happen when there is only one cell free and in the cart is more than one item/stack.

[eastwood6510]

EDIT: Also in heat wave there was no change and actually was hotter in that room. but then I saw something that was blocking cooling cell

Solar chimneys are pretty early; are you not using them, or are they unusable in your biome? They are a little tricky to get running right, but with sunlight, rain, and nothing blocking them they've kept my pawns alive during heatstrokes before. I have a playthrough with pics and I'll try to post it up to the point where I use the chimney tonight.

Well, it's now happened twice. Entire colonies wiped out by heat stroke.
...

Idk. Maybe ...

Well, I just tried again. With all out rushing of making dusters and cowboy hats, only 2 out of 7 people died from this colony's heat wave.

So maybe coolers can wait after all!

Keffiyehs aren't too shabby at this either. But I hate having ...

Quick question: Are these about the correct cover values?

Fences: 25%
Cheval de frise: 35%
Earthen Ramparts: 50%
Sandbags: 65%
Parapet: 65%
Embrasure: 73%

Thanks for the values!

As to the solar chimney; I was in a extreme desert biome so rain is a kind of rare thing. The normal temperature for that map wasn't that bad but when the heat wave came it was like a steam roller.

The clothes definitely worked great but as I said, took some rushing to get ready.

[zzz1000]

About chimneys, I do not have extreme climate so it's not critical, dusters are enough, but it seems do not work for me, it just stays full of water and doing nothing. Most likely there some interference from something else so I do not report it as bug, but can someone  show picture how it must be installed to be sure I did all right?

[jackarbiter]

About chimneys, I do not have extreme climate so it's not critical, dusters are enough, but it seems do not work for me, it just stays full of water and doing nothing. Most likely there some interference from something else so I do not report it as bug, but can someone  show picture how it must be installed to be sure I did all right?

Attached.

You can see the blue where it is pointed to cool the rooms (the blue square is behind it but because it's drawn three blocks "high" it looks like the square is in the middle of it), you have to have it in sunlight (it tells you how much sunlight there is), have rain in it, make sure the vent is open, and make sure the blue square is not blocked by anything. As you can see in this screenshot there was a heat wave (it was a temperate climate) and from what I remember it got hot enough to kill at one point, but my colonists were fine. The temp is shown in Fahrenheit because that's what I'm used to; I wish I could see both values at once so I could see 48C and know that's 118F, but I have to convert it every time.

Anyway it's been a while since I've used it (that was 18 days ago), and currently I think I have that area roofed over, so I can't promise it still works; I'll look into it later.

(EDIT)It also has a roof requirement, thin or constructed roof maybe, but it'll enforce this so you can't go wrong.

[attachment deleted by admin - too old]

[Amariithynar]

Quick question: Are these about the correct cover values?

Fences: 25%
Cheval de frise: 35%
Earthen Ramparts: 50%
Sandbags: 65%
Parapet: 65%
Embrasure: 73%

These (I edited the quoted info) are the numbers. Embrasures don't work well with higher coverage, this is the max CR put them. Not too much better than sandbags/parapets. Kindof makes parapets useless I guess. Cheval are passable. I'm thinking that maybe others of these should be passable, like the ramparts or maybe even sandbags. I'm open to suggestions as to different coverage values or different passability values.

Walls provide 100% coverage and can't be shot through, so I don't think they belong in the list.

That looks about right to me, value-wise, until sandbags; here's my opinion on them, to make them closer to how they are, and how they are used, IRL. They should rot if left uncovered/outside, unless you also use concrete to harden them during the initial construction (upgraded sand bags); they should have very low life per tile, but be very cheap to make (it's just a burlap bag plus some earth/sand; very easy to rip open the bag with ranged weapons and have the earth/sand all spill out), unless hardened with concrete (then they should be more wall-like in durability); they should be able to be reinstalled, unless hardened by concrete (obviously).

As for what should be passable, sandbags definitely should be but slowed down (Not too slowly, but it's still bags of sand or loose earth; they move around a lot; if you did the sandbag alterations above, hardened sandbags should actually be faster to move over), and ramparts only if they are made to be sloped instead of packed flat (as they are currently) should be, but very slowly (as it's going up a steep incline of loose earth); maybe 10% speed for that one tile? Would be great if they were three long constructions, with one side being easy to climb and one side being hard to climb, to represent the direction they were built to defend against, and to be able to shoot past them you have to be on the sloped up tile behind it, else it blocks line of sight... but I think that's asking a bit too much, isn't it? >_>; Either way, HP should be low so they're easily blasted open, or dug through with effort (easier to tear down by far than to put up).

Parapets should be an upgrade to earthen ramparts to make them impassable and increase their HP. That gives them use.

With just Core, Core Library, Core Library Tweaks, and ARB (in that order) I'm still getting the "can't load map" bug, so I'm wondering if it's not a bug with my install. I'm going to try reinstalling the game to see if that sorts things out. EDIT: That seemed to resolve it... Wonder what the heck was going on? o.O

[eastwood6510]

That looks about right to me, value-wise, until sandbags; here's my opinion on them, to make them closer to how they are, and how they are used, IRL. They should rot if left uncovered/outside, unless you also use concrete to harden them during the initial construction (upgraded sand bags); they should have very low life per tile, but be very cheap to make (it's just a burlap bag plus some earth/sand; very easy to rip open the bag with ranged weapons and have the earth/sand all spill out), unless hardened with concrete (then they should be more wall-like in durability); they should be able to be reinstalled, unless hardened by concrete (obviously).

As for what should be passable, sandbags definitely should be but slowed down (Not too slowly, but it's still bags of sand or loose earth; they move around a lot; if you did the sandbag alterations above, hardened sandbags should actually be faster to move over), and ramparts only if they are made to be sloped instead of packed flat (as they are currently) should be, but very slowly (as it's going up a steep incline of loose earth); maybe 10% speed for that one tile? Would be great if they were three long constructions, with one side being easy to climb and one side being hard to climb, to represent the direction they were built to defend against, and to be able to shoot past them you have to be on the sloped up tile behind it, else it blocks line of sight... but I think that's asking a bit too much, isn't it? >_>; Either way, HP should be low so they're easily blasted open, or dug through with effort (easier to tear down by far than to put up).

I'm not attacking you in anyway, but have you seen the sandbag barricades we use today? Even in today's military they are very effective and very robust. They stop explosions and high penetration rounds pretty easily.

Am i the only one that can't use the concrete mixers?.

They also don't work for me.

[Amariithynar]

I'm not attacking you in anyway, but have you seen the sandbag barricades we use today? Even in today's military they are very effective and very robust. They stop explosions and high penetration rounds pretty easily.

Why would I think you were? You didn't just leave it at a useless and/or snide remark, but explained your position. That said, yes I have, and no, they really aren't. Even a single bullet hole will cause a bag to leak, and when one bag deflates then it compromises the integrity of the entire wall. While we see polypropylene and nylon bags in use today in the first world, the vast majority on Earth are still burlap sacks, which, as mentioned, rot. Even poly bags (unless made with a special UV formulation) will be degraded beneath the sun. If you have access to the fine particulate sand that we use for military-grade sadbags, which is made up in large part of natural ceramics in the form of crushed/powdered sea shells, then certainly it's going to be more effective against bullets, as it'll chew up the lead projectile even more than normal when it gets hit.  However, as I've noted, you don't normally have access to sand proper, so the sandbags in use are likely just filled with loosely packed earth (topsoil), making them not very effective at repelling bullets. Further, according to the 1990 edition of the Soldier's Manual of Common Tasks, you need at least 18 inches of proper sandbags between yourself and incoming enemy fire for it to be effective cover. Canadian army winter training teaches that you must use 4 feet of icecrete (icy sand slurry frozen to form) to stop a bullet (and so need even more to ensure effective cover).

[Justas love]

I play on deserts...

[Grogfeld]

An interesting conversation about sandbags. It's a great idea to make sandbags deteriorate over time, and yes sandbags barricades are weak, that's why most of the time military use concrete blocks, but for barricades made ad hoc sandbags are good solution. So maybe if it's possible to make them deteriorate, why not make parapets a upgrade, and sandbags be movable and we could store them? Just a suggestion but gameplay wise it's a solution for them. But still it's not an problem, in my opinion all of defense structures can be as they are.

[Justas love]

sandbags where used as a fast defence setup, it was weak, but it still provided cover and was easy, fast to build

[Fafn1r]

For some reason, neither solar chimneys and overhead mountain rooms (A13 feature) are reducing temperature in my game.

I made a 16 tiles big room (6x6 walls) for storing boomalope sacks. Chimney was at the south wall, blue indicator facing inside, constructed roof over everything, doors were closed all the time. No noticeable results.

Mountains are another riddle.

[zzz1000]

Looks like I did it  about right. Its autumn now so it's hard to say, I tried  to change coldpersecond to -100 and pushmin to 10 for science but didn't noticed difference(room with roof over chimney tile, without roof and without chimney all have same temperature).
For me it possible to be conflict with something, maybe redistheat( I do not use it because no power but leave it enabled  because pipes and why not) but it's strange because looks like Panda use it's own cold generator. But missing texture looks suspicious.

Sorry for trouble

[Cornishdude152]

Deep mines also don't work....... unless they're automatic and take weeks for a bit of resource to appear.