Hey Ludeon/Fellow players,
First off - love the game so far. I'm very happy with spending $30 on this project. The best part is: I know the money I've given goes right to you, and your team - and there is no third party publisher getting his greedy little hands on it. I'm also happy to be supporting Canadian talent.
On to the reason for my post: Colonizing in Caves / Building underground
In a few words, I will express my opinion (you don't have to agree): I feel that building a colony underground would be very difficult to maintain despite it's obvious advantages.
The complexities of a fully functional cave/mining system are vast and detailed - hence why mining is such big money! Conversely: the benefits of an underground colony are hard to ignore - specifically the safety factor.
Advantages:
- Safety from unpredictable weather. Storms, maybe sandstorms in the future that will damage buildings/crops or even kill colonists? These do exist in deserts even on Earth.
- Safety from raiders. Unless raiders decide to tunnel in to a mountain after you (potential feature), then you can easily funnel your attackers to a battleground you control - giving you a decisive advantage
- Fewer resources expended on structures. Naturally: to build a structure in a cave you simply hollow out the section you want to be in and you're done. With exterior structures - you need to spend money on walls and roofs.
- Camouflage. If you don't have any exterior structures showing, then maybe the raider would simply walk by - or get tired of searching. Having only a single door that is maybe disguised as a rock could be your first and best line of defense.
Disadvantages:
- Sunlight. People need to see the light. Without it, there are health concerns - both physical and mental. Being underground constantly will make people feel cramped. It's also inherently unnatural for humans. People just can't do it for long
- Breathing Air Infrastructural requirements (I'm aware that breathing air is not currently in the scope of the game). Maintaining a ventilation/supply system is a constant battle against entropy. Bringing in air, and ensuring it's circulation throughout a cave system takes massive infrastructure which grows proportionally to the cave system. There are a number of interesting game mechanic opportunities to introduce if air was something to consider.
- Water. (Obviously not in the current game scope as well). Similar to the air requirement. But this one is cool because you could technically find a spring in the cave. You might detect it first, or accidentally dig in to it and start a flood. Maybe it needs a filter, maybe it's clean. Or you could aquaduct the water in from an exterior river/stream/spring.
This is just a short list off the top of my head. I know the game is not finished - I just wanted to put this out there and see what others think. I like the Dwarf Fortress feel of mining everything out, but we're not Dwarves, and there are a number of reasons why humans have never built underground.
I'm interested to hear other peoples' ideas and opinions as well. I'd especially like to hear what people think about air/water supply/waste.
-JayNic
QuoteI like the Dwarf Fortress feel of mining everything out, but we're not Dwarves, and there are a number of reasons why humans have never built underground.
http://gizmodo.com/inside-the-intriguing-ancient-underground-city-of-derin-1382324256
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/09/living-underground-coober_n_449185.html
People have built entire cities under the earth.
Ok, so there are a couple... The spirit of my post is that it is ****ing hard to do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_city
There are a few more than 2. Humans and our ancestors have been living in caves and dugouts for centuries. The egyptians built the pyramids, which had there own ventilation systems to keep the workers from suffocating. Its not as far fetched as most people imagine. if i were stranded on a strange world I'd happily live in a cave. If i had a pneumatic jackhammer id certainly want to make it bigger.
This topic got SCIENCE'D! :D
The vast majority of the sites in Wiki link are malls, or connections. I'm talking about manageable long term sustainability of living space.
This thread was meant to express opinions and ideas on underground living - not site examples of it. If you believe it to make sense (so do I) then I would hope readers would explain the complexities and advantages/disadvantages of it in the context of video game mechanics.
Yes There are few housing structures that are below ground. but there are still several. The US maintains fallout shelters that can house small populations for months.
In terms of game mechanics the biggest problem i see is that mining is much too fast. It should take a large ammount time to hollow out a spot of enough size to support a colony. This needs to be enough to offset the safety Such a structure provides.
wall outside quick but subject to attack, and weather and possible explosions. While the rock isnt. but it takes a long time to get a sizeable enough space.
Now this is constructive.
I agree: mining is too fast in game.
Realistically you'd need a number of temporary structures set up outside your mine to live in before the mine itself is large enough. Once it is large enough, you still need water supply and ventilation.
You can't just move 5 people in to a cave with a single point of entry. They would suffocate.
Video game logic.
Quote from: JayNic on November 12, 2013, 05:25:28 PM
Disadvantages:
- Sunlight. People need to see the light. Without it, there are health concerns - both physical and mental. Being underground constantly will make people feel cramped. It's also inherently unnatural for humans. People just can't do it for long
This in particular. I work nights and often have to take vitamin tablets to help increase vitamin D which i would normally get from the sun. Theirs also other problems related to spending alot of time in the dark, but i cant see anything like this being implemented into Rimworld. Though isnt claustaphobia already a trait, or did i imagine that?
I do agree that mining should take longer and ive seen this pop up a few times now.
Quote from: Produno on November 12, 2013, 06:48:56 PM
Theirs also other problems related to spending alot of time in the dark, but i cant see anything like this being implemented into Rimworld.
I do agree that mining should take longer and ive seen this pop up a few times now.
I think a simple mechanic would be a negative effect: "Missing the daylight -15"
Similar to the claustrophobic effect.
At the moment water isn't simulated, and neither is air, but any people smart enough to travel the stars surely has enough sense to manage air flow in a mineshaft.
I dont know that the game will get to Level of Resource Tracking. But as it stands there isnt a lot that can be done to change the benefits of a mine base. There has been some discussion of rock types affecting mining speed and the amount of material removed before a cave in. but all of these are complex solutions to an arguably equally as complex problem. You can take them quite far, but it sounds like much of this will be beyond the scope of rimworld.
Edit: For the spans of time we are looking at most of my colonists seem to go outside at least once a day. In the future you could also add requiremnts to cetrain constructions, that they must be built outside, though i hate this sort of artificial limting. "Dammit, i want to be able to smelt Iron in my mine."
Quote from: NexusTrimean on November 12, 2013, 06:55:51 PM
...add requiremnts to cetrain constructions, that they must be built outside, though i hate this sort of artificial limting. "Dammit, i want to be able to smelt Iron in my mine."
Exactly. But if you built a "ventilator" that had enough capacity to work a set number of square units: then boom - interior smelting
They've already got power management. The cables go through the walls. Why not vents and or pipes? I also wish I could build cheaper walls without power in them... Some of my rooms don't need power coursing through every wall - and yet I have to risk the explosions regardless... Same could be for water/air
Thinking on it more... It could really be this easy:
A "building" called "Ventilator" that supplies / vents enough air for 100 cubic grids. Bigger cave? Build more ventilators... You can ensure your air moves between caverns by either not building a door, or by placing a 1 metal cost "vent" on a wall. The vent object would also be needed on outside structures.
Doesn't have to get too complex as I think most people are thinking - but it's still a logical gameplay element that differentiates underground from over ground
I am a strong supporter of the idea of 'more challenges', but they all need to balance. Building bases under ground shouldn't be hard just to stop building bases underground. Building bases under ground should be hard because building a base in general is hard.
Various stone types is a good place to start, which make it more interesting to begin digging out underground. Air circulation is another interesting thing that could be added, and have it affect both above and below ground structures. (After all, nothing says the air above ground actually as to be safe. Maybe you've landed on a moon with a mostly toxic atmosphere and need to maintain a sealed environment with scrubbing equipment? Best not to step outside without your space suit, or allow people to wander too far from a recharge/supply station/cart.)
I've also spent months at a time in confined environments and not seeing the light of day. In parts of Canada they also call that "Winter". I like to assume I've kept all of my sanity after those expeditions. But that does give us another point to expand upon that would add more flavour to the characters. Just think of having a claustrophobic crew member on a tainted air world? Would make the player have to work extra hard to provide things like 'artificial windows' and improved lighting to keep that character's sanity up.
Side note: The average human on earth can produce something like 1000 units of vitamin D a minute in good weather with a reasonable amount of exposed skin, and needs around 200 units a day to maintain good health. Peak production is found at a few narrow bands of UV light, and you can actually produce it in a safer and more controlled manner with artificial UV lights at those specific bands, rather than broader spectrum light as from the sun which will dose you in lots of radiation at a low efficiency level.
I think a good, temporary solution would be to have an option to make the map generator not generate those large chunks of mountain every time. This way, there would not be enough mountain to build an entire base in but you might be able to fit a room or two.
Quote from: Luckless on November 12, 2013, 09:39:37 PM
I am a strong supporter of the idea of 'more challenges', but they all need to balance. Building bases under ground shouldn't be hard just to stop building bases underground. Building bases under ground should be hard because building a base in general is hard.
Various stone types is a good place to start, which make it more interesting to begin digging out underground. Air circulation is another interesting thing that could be added, and have it affect both above and below ground structures. (After all, nothing says the air above ground actually as to be safe. Maybe you've landed on a moon with a mostly toxic atmosphere and need to maintain a sealed environment with scrubbing equipment? Best not to step outside without your space suit, or allow people to wander too far from a recharge/supply station/cart.)
I've also spent months at a time in confined environments and not seeing the light of day. In parts of Canada they also call that "Winter". I like to assume I've kept all of my sanity after those expeditions. But that does give us another point to expand upon that would add more flavour to the characters. Just think of having a claustrophobic crew member on a tainted air world? Would make the player have to work extra hard to provide things like 'artificial windows' and improved lighting to keep that character's sanity up.
Side note: The average human on earth can produce something like 1000 units of vitamin D a minute in good weather with a reasonable amount of exposed skin, and needs around 200 units a day to maintain good health. Peak production is found at a few narrow bands of UV light, and you can actually produce it in a safer and more controlled manner with artificial UV lights at those specific bands, rather than broader spectrum light as from the sun which will dose you in lots of radiation at a low efficiency level.
This.
Many people entirely fail to realize that it is possible to balance unbalanced features of a game by way of realism and still avoid punishing creativity.
Yes, living in an underground structure should be hard. Should there be a multitude of unforeseeable dangers that you have no way of protecting against or avoiding? No, that's bad gameplay. Should there be a way to surmount the challenges thrown at you while building an insanely fortified underground complex, with the necessary effort and knowledge? Absolutely.
Quote from: Luckless on November 12, 2013, 09:39:37 PM
Side note: The average human on earth can produce something like 1000 units of vitamin D a minute in good weather with a reasonable amount of exposed skin, and needs around 200 units a day to maintain good health. Peak production is found at a few narrow bands of UV light, and you can actually produce it in a safer and more controlled manner with artificial UV lights at those specific bands, rather than broader spectrum light as from the sun which will dose you in lots of radiation at a low efficiency level.
According to this, thats wrong. http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellness/food-nutrition/vitamin-supplements/how-much-vitamin-d-from-sun.htm
I also have really bad skin as a result of working nights, and it gets particularly worse in winter (when i see even less sun). The itching itself is enough to drive me crazy sometimes lol. I can only guess its lack of vitamin D but its definitly only occoured since i started working nights about a year and a half ago. Oh i also get alot of ulcers, which is apparently because of a low immune system, again meant to be linked to vitamin D.
Though for the point of the game i dont think this bears much weight, unless of course your colonists
never see daylight, which i dont think happens..