United states elections(part one); what are you gonna do?

[Noobshock]

To be honest,  i wish voting required more than "citizenship"  and a pulse.  Requiring an Iq above 80, or some other measurement of contributions to society would be nice.

Maybe not owning property,  but something.

If voting was limited to taxpayers, the entire map would've gone for Trump (you can find those maps and statistics out there if you're curious). If you aren't paying into the system, it's really easy to want to be generous with other people's money. There's a word for that that we don't mind using when discussing communist regimes: expropriation.

[mumblemumble]

Actually I can support that idea... Say, net over 0 in terms of money in / out. Or even leway for slightly less, for say, a bad year, to be fair. Just so long as either 1: they try to work, or 2: are not relying on assistance via public funds.

[Mikhail Reign]

What happens to you tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free, the land of the free, home of the brave?

Gotta say tho - Trump getting elected might work out alright. The general opinion of American, from outside, has been pretty negative for a while now. I don't remember 'American' having positive connotations since MJ played for the Bulls. Since the beginning of this 'election' process, opinion has been falling even more rapidly. Our government was already strengthening ties with China and moving away from USA before - this whole process has really lit a fire under our ass to get it done faster.

Trump might be the nail in the coffin we as a global community needed to tell the yanks to get stuffed.

[skinicism]

  I picked Trump since he seemed to favor corporate religion over whatever cult-like worship sufficed for the masses; deal with it at your peril.

[sadpickle]

To be honest,  i wish voting required more than "citizenship"  and a pulse.  Requiring an Iq above 80, or some other measurement of contributions to society would be nice.

Maybe not owning property,  but something.

I like (not endorse, but like in a theoretical way) the idea of a Military Republic. In a militaristic democracy, full citizenship is only available through military service (including non-combat service). The voting franchise is limited to full citizens, AND they are the only ones who can hold public office.

Using the US as an example, if we had such a government, the structure of government would not change. People such as Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump would not have been eligible to run for president, or for any public office. They couldn't vote either, and neither could I. Some 80% of Congress would be ineligible for their posts. I think it would be fair to say government would be more conservative (the current US military tilts right), but if liberals were to pursue government careers anyway the makeup of the military would probably more closely resemble the demographics of the country as a whole.

Essentially, if you don't have any skin in the game, you don't get to play. I think this would lead to smarter governance overall, and in the long term. The danger is that, in this country at least, both the Democrats and the Republicans love to grow the various powers of the state and embark on overseas adventures; their arguing about exactly how to grow (or who to bomb) slows that process, to the benefit of everyone. A pro-military government would probably be able to expand the power of the state faster, and have a greater zeal for conflict, than even our current hawkish government.

For the record, I'm a libertarian and I didn't vote, but if I did vote, I would have voted for Gary Johnson.

EDIT: typo

[LouisTBR]

To be honest,  i wish voting required more than "citizenship"  and a pulse.  Requiring an Iq above 80, or some other measurement of contributions to society would be nice.

Maybe not owning property,  but something.

I wish there was an education system too, where the requirements for voting weren't simply being human. Many respected philosophers have had this idea before us, too.

If this was in place, though, society would be divided into those who cannot afford an education in any shape or form, and those with education. This was effectively what kickstarted the Russian Revolution. Although in theory it is a valid principle, when applied to such a diverse culture such as the UK or USA, it would start riots. It is also extremely unfair to those whose parents could not give them an education, because the majority of uneducated people are like they are due to their parents.

What I am saying is:
Theoretically - Great Idea
In Practice - Riots, revolutions and racism...

[Noobshock]

I like (not endorse, but like in a theoretical way) the idea of a Military Republic. In a militaristic democracy, full citizenship is only available through military service (including non-combat service). The voting franchise is limited to full citizens, AND they are the only ones who can hold public office.

Using the US as an example, if we had such a government, the structure of government would not change. People such as Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump would not have been eligible to run for president, or for any public office. They couldn't vote either, and neither could I. Some 80% of Congress would be ineligible for their posts. I think it would be fair to say government would be more conservative (the current US military tilts right), but if liberals were to pursue government careers anyway the makeup of the military would probably more closely resemble the demographics of the country as a whole.

Starship Troopers is a cool movie sign me up.

[LouisTBR]

I like (not endorse, but like in a theoretical way) the idea of a Military Republic. In a militaristic democracy, full citizenship is only available through military service (including non-combat service). The voting franchise is limited to full citizens, AND they are the only ones who can hold public office.

Using the US as an example, if we had such a government, the structure of government would not change. People such as Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and Donald Trump would not have been eligible to run for president, or for any public office. They couldn't vote either, and neither could I. Some 80% of Congress would be ineligible for their posts. I think it would be fair to say government would be more conservative (the current US military tilts right), but if liberals were to pursue government careers anyway the makeup of the military would probably more closely resemble the demographics of the country as a whole.

If the majority of Americans wanted to vote (Which obviously they do) then this would mean a giant influx of people in the armed forces. Since only military can vote, the public sector, law enforcement, finance, business, food chains, etc. would all be gone! There would be anarchy, as anyone who wanted a vote would join a military career. This would mean a HUGE spike in crime rates, no food/drink services such as Starbucks and Mcdonalds and no Target/Walmart-type shops either...

[mumblemumble]

To be honest,  i wish voting required more than "citizenship"  and a pulse.  Requiring an Iq above 80, or some other measurement of contributions to society would be nice.

Maybe not owning property,  but something.

I wish there was an education system too, where the requirements for voting weren't simply being human. Many respected philosophers have had this idea before us, too.

If this was in place, though, society would be divided into those who cannot afford an education in any shape or form, and those with education. This was effectively what kickstarted the Russian Revolution. Although in theory it is a valid principle, when applied to such a diverse culture such as the UK or USA, it would start riots. It is also extremely unfair to those whose parents could not give them an education, because the majority of uneducated people are like they are due to their parents.

What I am saying is:
Theoretically - Great Idea
In Practice - Riots, revolutions and racism...

To be completely honest, education SHOULD be free (for practical shit like math, English, engineering, ect, women studies and white privilege classes can go die in a fire) Because for anything USEFUL, it immediately pays off in society...its one of THE safest investments to make in society.

As for requirments, joining the us military....mmn, no...I do not support and here is why.

inherently, anytime we put a requirement for voting, theres a HUGE risk to control the government through this.

For instance, what if say, something was passed so only XYZ can enter military, so only XYZ can vote?... thats bad.

no, the requirement should be as objective as humanly possible, a literacy test, maybe IQ test....anything else, even INCOME can be warped by society to control a vote.

[sadpickle]

Starship Troopers is a cool movie sign me up.

The book goes into this in more detail than the movie, which glosses over the story in favor of bug violence. Really fantastic novel for fans of sci-fi.

If the majority of Americans wanted to vote (Which obviously they do) then this would mean a giant influx of people in the armed forces. Since only military can vote, the public sector, law enforcement, finance, business, food chains, etc. would all be gone! There would be anarchy, as anyone who wanted a vote would join a military career. This would mean a HUGE spike in crime rates, no food/drink services such as Starbucks and Mcdonalds and no Target/Walmart-type shops either...

Let me address a couple of things here. First, voter turnout is the lowest in years, and is hovering just north of 50%. While this is a technical majority, it's a small one. Furthermore, for most people the vote is just a form of virtue-signaling. Hey, look at me, I voted. Did you vote? Did you vote for my guy/girl? Great, let's get a beer. Pretending the electorate is informed in this country is a joke, most people are voting on political (tribal) identity or who has the best hair, not specific policies. I doubt most of the people who voted for Trump can articulate his policies.

You might have misunderstood me on the citizenship thing. If you're not a citizen you're a civilian, and you have all the same rights as a citizen except the right to vote (or run for office). You're still free to pursue a job, raise a family, start a business, etc. You just can't vote in electoral politics (or be a politician).

All those things you're listing will still remain. Walmart and Starbucks are not going anywhere. Nothing I described would lead to anarchy. Military would probably experience an uptick in enlistment. There's still a government, there's still laws and police and everything. Nothing changes, except who can vote for elected officials. That's it.

I mean, consider it. Who runs for politics right now? Megalomaniacs. Egomaniacs. People who seek power. There was a study that found several presidential hopefuls fit the definition of a sociopath (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/of-psychopaths-and-presidential-candidates/). For every Rand Paul (no military service!), there's a hundred Mitch McConnells (5 weeks at Fort Knox before an honorable discharge for medical reasons). I mean, in this fictional system McConnell can run for politics and Paul can't, which is nightmarish to me. I am not advocating switching to a Military Republic.

If the government actually tried to implement this TODAY, there would probably be rioting and large numbers of the armed forces defecting to uphold the Constitution, etc. Total chaos.

EDIT: injected a paragraph, clarification.

[Mikhail Reign]

Yeeeeh - except then ya country is run only by the type who would join the military. What about all the intelligent humans that don't choose that one specific career? The guy who cured cancer wouldn't be able to vote because he spent his formative years in college and not boot camp?

Secondly - why would you need a military that big? We aren't going to be fighting any full scale ground wars anytime soon - if we start a war that big now, we'd just nuke each other.

Thirdly - where do you draw the line? You going to militarise the police force, or cops not worthy of a vote? Firemen? Doctors? Offshore oil driller?

[mumblemumble]

Yeeeeh - except then ya country is run only by the type who would join the military. What about all the intelligent humans that don't choose that one specific career? The guy who cured cancer wouldn't be able to vote because he spent his formative years in college and not boot camp?

Secondly - why would you need a military that big? We aren't going to be fighting any full scale ground wars anytime soon - if we start a war that big now, we'd just nuke each other.

Thirdly - where do you draw the line? You going to militarise the police force, or cops not worthy of a vote? Firemen? Doctors? Offshore oil driller?

You realize he said JOINED not STAY IN FOR ETERNITY right?

Your cancer cure doctor could do boot camp, training, a few years, then be out..

[DirectorBright]

The best thing to come out of this election is the meme magic.
Look at this stuff, its gold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGfOWZ9IHj4

[billycop32]

locking this thread up. see ya in part 3 if you wanna continue the chat!!!