[W|0.13.1135] "Slept in cold" thought conflicts w/maximum comfortable temperture

SSS · June 04, 2016, 07:14:30 PM

Simply put, a colonist can get a negative "slept in cold" thought when they really shouldn't be cold given what they're wearing. It seems the slept in cold thought is tied only to the temperature which can, in extreme cases, create a scenario where a colonist is always either too cold or too hot in their sleep. This is particularly annoying in the ice sheets biome since you need to have your colonists bundle up very well.

To reproduce:

1. Spawn a pawn with the cold lover trait in a very cold biome
2. Clothe pawn in a full muffalo wool outfit (i.e. pants, shirt, parka, tuque).
3. Heat room to just below their maximum comfortable temperature (~50ºF/10ºC).
4. Have pawn sleep in room.

BlackSmokeDMax · June 04, 2016, 08:41:13 PM

I thought clothes don't count during sleep. Could be mistaken of course.

hwfanatic · June 05, 2016, 02:02:55 AM

AFAIK the "slept in the cold" and "slept in the heat" have a fixed threshold.

SSS · June 05, 2016, 02:18:41 AM

Quote from: BlackSmokeDMax on June 04, 2016, 08:41:13 PM
I thought clothes don't count during sleep. Could be mistaken of course.

Quote from: hwfanatic on June 05, 2016, 02:02:55 AM
AFAIK the "slept in the cold" and "slept in the heat" have a fixed threshold.

Yes, that appears to be the case. What I'm saying is that this is leading to what appears to be an unintended effect, in that in some cases it is impossible to avoid having a colonist with a negative thought for either being too hot or too cold. A cold lover in all muffalo wool clothing will either be too cold in their sleep or too hot-- there is no middle in which there is no negative thought.

The reason I'm saying this is a problem with the way "slept in cold" is defined rather than a problem with muffalo wool clothing is because the way "slept in cold" is defined (i.e. a fixed temperature threshold) could also conflict with modded clothing. Tynan might disagree with that perspective, but I'm fairly certain that this is a bug that needs to be tackled in one way or another.

hwfanatic · June 05, 2016, 02:28:22 AM

How could it conflict with modded clothing? It is a fixed ambient temperature threshold i.e. as long as you keep your base temperature between 16 and 29, you should never get it. Now, I agree this is something I'd like to be reconsidered, but is it a bug? Not sure. Don't think so.

milon · June 05, 2016, 08:24:51 AM

It conflicts with modded clothing in that it conflicts with all clothing. (SSS, of you meant something else please correct me.)

And I would call it a bug. I don't think the intended design is to have a situation where there is no happy temperature. And if it's against the intended design, it's a bug.

SSS · June 05, 2016, 02:37:20 PM

Quote from: hwfanatic on June 05, 2016, 02:28:22 AM
How could it conflict with modded clothing? It is a fixed ambient temperature threshold i.e. as long as you keep your base temperature between 16 and 29, you should never get it. Now, I agree this is something I'd like to be reconsidered, but is it a bug? Not sure. Don't think so.

It could conflict with any modded clothing that decreases a pawn's maximum comfortable temperature below the fixed threshold you speak of, like an all muffalo wool outfit currently can in vanilla.

If you're saying Tynan intends for there to be outfits that cause a no happy temperature scenario, then I'd rather hear it from him. As milon says, anything that goes against intended design is a bug.

This might not be an issue if there were a way to have pawns automatically changes outfits, like an outdoor outfit and an indoor outfit (so pawns aren't sleeping in parkas), but that's more along the lines of a design request than a bug report.

hwfanatic · June 05, 2016, 04:05:52 PM

No, of course. Apologies. I didn't understand you meant having both thoughts at the same time is the bug. It's not clear from your bug report what you expected to happen and what actually happened.

SSS · June 05, 2016, 06:06:39 PM

Quote from: hwfanatic on June 05, 2016, 04:05:52 PM
No, of course. Apologies. I didn't understand you meant having both thoughts at the same time is the bug. It's not clear from your bug report what you expected to happen and what actually happened.

The bug isn't necessarily that both thoughts can occur simultaneously; I could imagine a legitimate scenario spawning both thoughts if a pawn went to bed in the cold and their room was afterward heated up to the point that they woke up sweating.

The bug is having no temperature at which one of the two thoughts ("slept in cold" or "too hot") does not occur. I stated this explicitly in the opening post: "...which can, in extreme cases, create a scenario where a colonist is always either too cold or too hot in their sleep".

hwfanatic · June 06, 2016, 03:29:38 AM

So, in the next example, it is the temperature between 7 and 12 degrees that you are talking about?

http://i.imgur.com/QauI119.png

Below 7 degrees the pawn will have "slept in the cold" thought.
Between 7 and 12 degrees the pawn will have both "slept in the cold" and "hot" thought.
Above 12 degrees the pawn will have "hot" thought.
Above 32 degrees the pawn will have "extremely hot" and "slept in the hot" thought.

So, no temperature where there are no thoughts, is this what you mean?

I am following this topic to see what the devs have to say. To my mind this can be easily circumvented by wearing something a bit lighter. Temperatures below 100 are not commonplace and there is no need to wear full muffalo wool apparel. But, I agree. If it's a bug - should be addressed.

SSS · June 06, 2016, 05:16:23 AM

Quote from: hwfanatic on June 06, 2016, 03:29:38 AM
So, in the next example, it is the temperature between 7 and 12 degrees that you are talking about?

[im g]http://i.imgur.com/j9O6efl.png[/im g]
http://i.imgur.com/QauI119.png

Below 7 degrees the pawn will have "slept in the cold" thought.
Between 7 and 12 degrees the pawn will have both "slept in the cold" and "hot" thought.
Above 12 degrees the pawn will have "hot" thought.
Above 32 degrees the pawn will have "extremely hot" and "slept in the hot" thought.

So, no temperature where there are no thoughts, is this what you mean?

I am following this topic to see what the devs have to say. To my mind this can be easily circumvented by wearing something a bit lighter. Temperatures below 100 are not commonplace and there is no need to wear full muffalo wool apparel. But, I agree. If it's a bug - should be addressed.

You understand the problem. At 12 degrees the pawn will still have the "slept in cold" thought, and at 13 degrees the pawn with have the "too hot" thought, leaving no happy temperature. I was just saying that having both thoughts on a pawn at once isn't necessarily a bug in and of itself since it could potentially occur through legitimate means.

As for changing outfits, again, this can make playing in extremely cold biomes more frustrating in a sense that has more to do with interface and micromanagement than it does with challenge, since you'd have to continually swap out each pawn's outfits before and after they go outside in order to avoid unhappy thoughts.

tl;dr: Yes, we're on the same page.

ison · June 13, 2016, 05:05:09 AM

The "current comfortable temperature range" value for "slept in cold" and "slept in heat" thoughts is calculated by ignoring any stat offsets from the apparel and traits. Perhaps we shouldn't ignore stat offsets from traits. It still wouldn't solve the problem, though it would probably make it less visible.

We could make it so "too hot" and "too cold" thoughts use the same "comfortable temperature range" stat calculation as "slept in cold" and "slept in heat" (apparel ignored) when the pawn is in bed. This way it would be no longer possible for a pawn to have both "slept in cold" and "too hot" thoughts at the same time.

Tynan, what do you think?

Tynan · June 13, 2016, 03:22:59 PM

"Slept in cold" and "Slept in heat" are abstracted representations of all the discomforts of sleeping in a room with a bad temperature.

The most comfy way to sleep is with minimal clothing. It's assumed colonists do this, though not really represented. They can, of course, survive sleeping in a room at -30C, if they have a parka. But then they're sleeping in a parka, and this isn't comfy. Hence the bad thought. It would be more explicit if they changed into pajamas or something to sleep. For now, this is what we have.

The mechanics purpose is to be a downside against just leaving your base at -30 and having everyone wear parkas day and night. In this it works.

So there's no bug. Thanks for reporting anyway.