Hi i just wanted to ask your guy's opinions on building a base outside or in the side of a mountain. I understand the mountain strategy is very popular due to it's innate defence and the popular use of kill rooms/boxes. Has anyone had much look building outside?
Building outside works well when you have a geyser for power, and if you plan things out very well, other than that, the mountain is better, atleast until they add raiders that mine through mountains!
mining into the mountain is more time-consuming than constructing walls but is is more resource-friendly because you don't actually waste resoures to create rooms.
building outside can be faster in creating the room but gives you less coverage and protection a mountain-home would give you.
How would one go about defending a base that's built outside? Especially later in the game? I suppose a hybrid base would work well and will definitely be my next project. I'm just incredibly concerned about keeping the outside secure.
For my play style, the only real advantages to a mountain base compared to an outdoor base is the mortar protection and protection from drop-in attacks. Even the drop in attacks can be tricky for most mountain bases. Although these are two big advantages, everything else can be duplicted in an outdoor base with a large wall. One downfall I see with mountain baes is you have limited options for good starting places, and it is usually really far from most of the map, making trips around the map fairly dangerous.
The advantage of a base built outside is that the terrain is quite open, meaning good fields of fire for your colonists. It's certainly possible to use some tricks (like placing a cutting table across a wall gap) to shoot out from your base.
Quote from: Bobthefarmer1 on September 08, 2014, 10:32:19 AM
Building outside works well when you have a geyser for power, and if you plan things out very well, other than that, the mountain is better, atleast until they add raiders that mine through mountains!
Drop Pods can go through Mountains.
Quote from: BetaSpectre on September 08, 2014, 11:15:12 AM
Quote from: Bobthefarmer1 on September 08, 2014, 10:32:19 AM
Building outside works well when you have a geyser for power, and if you plan things out very well, other than that, the mountain is better, atleast until they add raiders that mine through mountains!
Drop Pods can go through Mountains.
I thought that drop pods could only land "outside"...
Anyway, the major disadvantage of a base totally roofed is the cabin fever, which will drive colonists insane in the long term. There needs to be some open areas that are regularly used but still segragated from most cononists/valuables by kill boxes/assorted defence mechanisms to deal with drop-ins.
And there will always be some open areas if you plan to use mortars or solar panels, the trick is managing these
There's a glitched event where each square or so will have a dropped raider, This includes spaces underneath mountains.
So drop pods can go through mountains, its just incredibly rare. Like once per 2-3 years.
Quote from: TheGrover on September 08, 2014, 11:31:34 AMAnd there will always be some open areas if you plan to use mortars or solar panels, the trick is managing these
I've found that using the no roof tools works well for that, so that only the actual equipment is exposed not any empty space where they could land.
Quote from: TheGrover on September 08, 2014, 11:31:34 AM
Quote from: BetaSpectre on September 08, 2014, 11:15:12 AM
Quote from: Bobthefarmer1 on September 08, 2014, 10:32:19 AM
Building outside works well when you have a geyser for power, and if you plan things out very well, other than that, the mountain is better, atleast until they add raiders that mine through mountains!
Drop Pods can go through Mountains.
I thought that drop pods could only land "outside"...
Anyway, the major disadvantage of a base totally roofed is the cabin fever, which will drive colonists insane in the long term. There needs to be some open areas that are regularly used but still segragated from most cononists/valuables by kill boxes/assorted defence mechanisms to deal with drop-ins.
And there will always be some open areas if you plan to use mortars or solar panels, the trick is managing these
Mortars pass through mountains, otherwise I would use an open space I uncovered during digging as my beacon point. I may just use it anyway so I can seal the base completely against outside influence. If the beacon is the stockpile that I keep all tradable items on, then people will get a breath of fresh air when they go to drop stuff off there. That'll work, right? My colony looks a little something like this (http://puu.sh/bqNsy/ceab361e99.jpg) and that screenshot is bugged in that it's not rendering shadows, pawns, a geothermal vent that's inside the open area to the south and is obviously showing the locations of metal. Puush and Rimworld don't play nice, this happens often. Invisible UI is the other common thing.
On an unrelated note This occured moments after that screenshot above (http://puu.sh/bqNnQ/950fcd4200.jpg). I thought it was maybe an event (seeing as I have a couple mods installed) but I got no message for an event. Hitting ESC clears it up but as soon as the game starts playing again, the foggy rain effect builds up until I can't see the colony and a weird effect is going on with name tags. Probably just Out of Memory issues, I play on a bad laptop.
Here's an example of a decent sized outdoor base (The aptly named "Shantytown")just as proof that it's not much harder then a mountain base. I find that the A.I. rarely tries to break through walls that are 3 or more blocks thick. As far as drop pods go, perhaps I've just been lucky but I haven't had too many in the year or so this particular colony has been going and the few that happened were dealt with fairly easily. (They tend to land in either the upper or lower clearings, where my 20+ Colonists and a few turrets make short work of them.) As you can see I don't have any solar panels, 3 Thermal Gens provide all the power the base needs. (Provided both Turret fields aren't online at the same time.) I don't have a door blocking off the 1 entrance/exit so my Colonists don't suffer from Cabin fever, also rebuilding it after every raid was a pain lol. I used to exclusively build mountain base's but I wanted to try something different, and after doing so I'm of the opinion that they both have their pros and cons. In broad terms I'd say the mountain base is harder early game but pays off in the late game. Outdoor base's are much easier in the early game but later on you will basically have to build your own "mountain" around it in the form of a very thick stone wall if you hope to survive.
(http://s2.postimg.org/n2ydmg9pl/Shantytown.jpg)
Quote from: BetaSpectre on September 08, 2014, 11:35:56 AM
There's a glitched event where each square or so will have a dropped raider, This includes spaces underneath mountains.
So drop pods can go through mountains, its just incredibly rare. Like once per 2-3 years.
I'm pretty sure it's more along the line of the game just having too many raiders being dropped in at once, so it just starts throwing the excess drop pods to random locations without checking whether or not they're valid to drop in at.
An outside colony is the best; living inside a mountain in the cheap way out and, frankly, I don't see how it's even fun. Live in a mountain and make a kill box = you win. How's that fun?
The funnest challenge I've had on this game is building a colony without walls, more akin to a "city" set up of buildings. You haven't truly experienced fun when you're fighting between your houses, raiders coming from you mess hall. Your other colonists are trapped inside the armory from enemy fire...
Truly the best way to play. No cheap strategies.
And on another note, it's not a colony if you're just building a big box. Then it's just a big box with rooms. It's equally as mundane and cheap as mountain bases.
I am kind of waiting until A7 comes out with the new escalation method to build an outside base. I may just suck at the game, but I don't see how anything but a killbox would take care of the 200+ raids against my 20.
Quote from: Matthiasagreen on September 08, 2014, 03:10:43 PM
I am kind of waiting until A7 comes out with the new escalation method to build an outside base. I may just suck at the game, but I don't see how anything but a killbox would take care of the 200+ raids against my 20.
what do you mean with "new escalation method"? if the game is currently too hard for you then why not decrease the difficulty level or chose a more friendlier storyteller? randy random sounds more dangerous but in truth he is kinda frindlier than cassandra, just sometimes a bit imbalanced (on some rarer occasions in my case). in my last colony i never got a raider attacks for weeks on weeks, just the daily rampaging squirrel, once i got a 12 man sieging party with my initial 3 starting members...now that was gg.
Quote from: Clayton on September 08, 2014, 03:07:14 PM
And on another note, it's not a colony if you're just building a big box. Then it's just a big box with rooms. It's equally as mundane and cheap as mountain bases.
I would say it's up to each person to decide how they feel the game should be played. A tactic isn't "cheap" unless you personally feel it is, it's a matter of taste. Myself and many others enjoy turtling up, it's been a time honored tradition since the beginning of strategy games and is a completely viable way to play this game as well as many others.
Taken from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtling_(gameplay)
A turtle strategy is commonly used in real-time strategy video games. When turtling, the player protects their territory, to the exclusion of creating forces for attacking the enemy. A turtling strategy may work because it forces the opponent to be more aggressive and constantly force him to attack the turtling player until the map is mined out and the opponent does not have any resources to replenish their forces. The most common way to turtle is to build large numbers of towers, turrets, and other defensive structures to fire on enemy units. Turtle armies may also incorporate large groups of artillery units to extend effective range and prevent opposing artillery units from attacking with impunity.
The turtling strategy has some major weaknesses. First, many games have units which out-range defensive buildings (catapults, artillery, etc.) and / or short-range units which are fast enough and tough enough to rush the defenses. The turtling strategy may then collapse (especially if overly dependent on choke points) as the more aggressive player destroys one group of defenses, destroys resource-gathering and unit-building facilities in that area, and then attacks another set of defenses, etc. (assuming that the attacker has been building reinforcements in the meantime). Another serious weakness of turtling is that it prevents the turtler from spreading across the map to acquire additional resources and therefore lets the enemy use these resources to build more and often better offensive units.
It's not strategy or some fancy tactic, it's exploiting the AI's weakness lol. They'll only try to enter from the single entrance to your compound, better surround it with turrets so you don't actually have to fight anything...
Quote from: Xerberus86 on September 08, 2014, 04:01:12 PM
Quote from: Matthiasagreen on September 08, 2014, 03:10:43 PM
I am kind of waiting until A7 comes out with the new escalation method to build an outside base. I may just suck at the game, but I don't see how anything but a killbox would take care of the 200+ raids against my 20.
what do you mean with "new escalation method"? if the game is currently too hard for you then why not decrease the difficulty level or chose a more friendlier storyteller? randy random sounds more dangerous but in truth he is kinda frindlier than cassandra, just sometimes a bit imbalanced (on some rarer occasions in my case). in my last colony i never got a raider attacks for weeks on weeks, just the daily rampaging squirrel, once i got a 12 man sieging party with my initial 3 starting members...now that was gg.
quote from the change log "Rebalanced storyteller to pay more attention to population and less to wealth, and to ramp up slower."
Edit: I understand you can change the difficulty. I just haven't found a difficulty with a late game that is a happy medium between boringly easy and what I mentioned above. From what I read in the forums, it just doesn't exist.
Quote from: Clayton on September 08, 2014, 04:41:10 PM
It's not strategy or some fancy tactic, it's exploiting the AI's weakness lol. They'll only try to enter from the single entrance to your compound, better surround it with turrets so you don't actually have to fight anything...
In real life that is called knowing your enemy. That's a totally legit tactic in real life, why not the game? No Army General is going to say, "Killing our enemy that way is too easy. Let's try something different." Just because you play your game one way doesn't make it the only way. If it was meant to be played just your way, then the game would be made differently.
Yo chief, this is a game not real life.
It's not a strategy or "awesome" tactic in RimWorld, it's exploiting the AI's weakness by surrounding your single entrance into your cave "colony" with turrets. Exploitation at it's best. If enemies were to try to make a new entrance, or if there was more than one entrance, the entire exploit wouldn't work.
First, this is a survival game, so any way to make yourself survive is legitimate. It may not be real life but I doubt I am the only person who has thought, "what would I do if it were me in this situation." I would definitely make my living space as defendable as possible. If that means cave living, I would do it. your own example of other options is trying to put "real life" into it. Secondly That could be said about many things in the game. If the AI would make raiders take out the electricity first, then the "exploit" of turrets wouldn't work. If the AI were to always melee attack, then the "exploit" of guns wouldn't work. If the AI of the mechs were to venture further from the ship, then the "exploit" of snipers wouldn't work. The game is designed to let a player decide how they want to play. The only person who can really say how the game is supposed to be played is Tynan.
Lol you cant rationalize exploiting the AI path-finding and attacking. Good try, though.
well he's kinda correct, if the AI would be on the same level as you were then how would you survive firefights against 12 people when you still have 4 for example? building traps and making sure that the AI runs into them is needed, otherwise you would just lose.
With that kind of defeatism attitude; I've built and survived multiple "city-like" colonies that don't use kill boxes or cheap exploits to sustain myself. It's possible. It's just really annoying seeing people promote exploits as real game tactics.
Quote from: Clayton on September 08, 2014, 06:23:05 PM
With that kind of defeatism attitude; I've built and survived multiple "city-like" colonies that don't use kill boxes or cheap exploits to sustain myself. It's possible. It's just really annoying seeing people promote exploits as real game tactics.
Somehow I doubt a design like that can withstand a 80 centipede, 70 scyther mech raid. If there's a video showing that though, I'd love to see it.
Also, unless Tynan/a dev says otherwise, killboxes/building in a mountain are no more an "exploit" than your city-like designs are. They could so easily counter making killboxes/dwarfism if it was a gamebreaker/exploit.
I'm way too lazy to make a video just to show you guys you don't have to use exploits to have fun in this game lol. But, I digress. To each their own; exploits or power gaming.
Mountain base = Mole people I love doing it so much, Many geothermals.
Quote from: Clayton on September 08, 2014, 06:49:46 PM
I'm way too lazy to make a video just to show you guys you don't have to use exploits to have fun in this game lol. But, I digress. To each their own; exploits or power gaming.
I think you should allow everyone to decide them self what is fun and what isn't. It doesn't matter if you make a killbox or just position your troops better on open land on both occasions you are using AI weaknesses to your advantage. Killbox does it to better extend. Game is far from finished and certain tactics are better than others and in video games nothing is "cheap". As you said it is just a game so no reason with aggressive tone just because other people don't play it your way. If I turtle in the mountain all day and night on easiest setting with cheats it doesn't take away any fun you have with your game, so I don't really understand this attack.
Don't feed the troll, no one actually takes the way other people play their own single player games so personally. He's just being argumentative/insulting for the sake of it. Non-constructive posts should just be ignored.
Talking about the game = being a troll? Flawless logic lol.
But, I digress. I was just voicing my opinion; it's not like my opinion really changes anything.
The only problem with playing in the open is that unless you gun it straight towards building a ship at the neglect of virtually everything else, you will garner so much "wealth" in colonists, weapons from raids, silver and resources in general that the game will think it perfectly fair to send raids that outnumber you 2-4 to 1. And you can go as far as to give your colonists the best armour you can get, power armour, M24s and edit their shooting skills to 20, it won't matter, they will die, there are too many guns firing back at you. And it only takes one solid hit to a leg to incapacitate a colonist. Raiders are disposable, colonists are not. Fighting in an open field, hiding behind rock chunks in against such odds will see your colony get rekt. The raiders simply achieve critical mass. If you build into a mountain and don't seal up the base with some sort of exploitative defense against the outside world, raiders will roll through it just as hard. If no such defense is used, the only advantage a mountain base has is that it's sheltered from mortars and can more or less ignore them entirely. With such a defense, still, the only advantage is that a mountain base is sheltered from mortars. Stray mortars might hit turrets and send an entire killbox up in smoke if you're not careful.
Ultimately, this discussion is moot. It's a single player game. My way differs from your way differs from poster #4838's way. They are all valid ways to play. Someone else's way of playing is not dumb, retarded, unfair, exploitative, boring or whatever else unless they themselves deem it so.
Agree with Goo Poni there.
Play the way you want to play.
I alternate between building a death fortress in the mountains to trying to role-play an actual crash landing; my colonists arm themselves initially to defend against wildlife and build a natural colony. I use the first raid as the impetus to building defenses and barricades.
Both play styles are just as fun. I play on higher difficulties when I aim to "metaplay" and build with defense and exploits in mind, pre-emptively getting things done before they would be needed or even considered by stranded survivors.
In a single player game exploits are simply that. Exploiting the AI and/or mechanics to gain an advantage. This is a natural play style and perfectly logical. We are trying to pit ourselves against the machine and win.
Role-playing like we don't know the mechanics is just a different way of playing. Neither is right or wrong. They just are.
Don't thing Clayton means to be a troll is this. They are simply trying to voice an idea. Admittedly a little strongly against the mountain dwarves. But, to be honest the mountain dwarves are being abrasive towards playing any other way too. To each their own.
I find that I get bored of turtling up every game, so I mix it up. It's like playing two different games.
Something to consider, whether you prefer an outside or mountain base, is that you can rebuild a base. You can't (at least not at the minute) rebuild colonists.
So, let's say that being raided by an overwhelming force is inevitable. If they can't find your colonists because you've dug yourself a shelter and sealed up the entrance, they can't kill them.
It might not be the most dignified or honorable way to survive a raid, but you can't win them all.
I have read this whole thread and it is interesting how strongly people feel about the different play styles.
I am torn when I play myself. I would actually prefer an open base due to role-playing reasons but I end up digging into the mountain most of the time because the raids become too much for me to handle out in the open. Maybe I am not as awesome as Clayton who claims to not have this issue.
What I think is the reason for this dichotomy is that it is unrealistically easy to dig into rock. In real life, you would have to rely on natural caverns. Digging a tunnel into a mountain requires either very heavy equipment or years of hard work. Maybe something for Tynan (or a mod) to consider would be making drilling more difficult (e.g., make the mountain core of granite that requires research to create drills to actually dig into). And make the game generate more natural caverns. Just a thought.
I used to build open colonies without turrets in Alpha 5 and earlier because at the time, some tactical thinking and good cover could ensure you victory even when outnumbered ten to one. The new health system makes fights much more dangerous, so I think building killboxes is fully justified now that a single shot can kill a colonist instantly.
In case anyone is interested, the largest colony I've ever built was this Alpha 5 one (http://i.imgur.com/koDi5XQ.png?1) - not a single turret ever built and even the wall was put up only after two years. Of course, that was back when colonists were bullet sponges and would be trashed very quickly nowadays.
Outdoor bases are fine if you can locate it near a natural choke point or surround yourself with a stone wall. the rest is about carefully planning your building placement so you can create good cover. one good method is a hallway of doors. If the entrance of your base has a hallway of doors, you have some good cover and a place to fall back for early game defense.
Example:
= stonewall
- door
==-==-==-==-==-==-==
ENTRANCE
TO BASE
==-==-==-==-==-==-==
colonists can use the doorways as cover and as enemies approach, they can fall back to doors further back.
add crap in the hallway to slow enemies down.
Quote from: marvinkosh on September 09, 2014, 12:09:17 AM
Something to consider, whether you prefer an outside or mountain base, is that you can rebuild a base. You can't (at least not at the minute) rebuild colonists.
So, let's say that being raided by an overwhelming force is inevitable. If they can't find your colonists because you've dug yourself a shelter and sealed up the entrance, they can't kill them.
It might not be the most dignified or honorable way to survive a raid, but you can't win them all.
Unlike the raiders which can throw mountains of flesh at you with no downside because they don't exist outside of the raids. The raiders that flee will never be seen again and in a little while, another 50 man raid. I tried using a mod that added a bunch of weapons (Project Armoury in combination with TechTreeMinami), spawned in a sniper rifle with 45 range and something like 80 damage. Highest damage and range in the game, basically one-shot colonist and raiders alike with a single solid hit, would tear off legs and arms and god knows what. 15 colonists in a shielded bunker with these weapons, all with 20 in shooting still died to the horde that rushed them. Using the dev console to fill the bunker with shields, I was still left with more or less everyone wounded and 5 of them had lost a leg and thus were no use to the colony any more. Raiders can sustain these extreme losses, I cannot. It's almost punishment for playing the game.
If raiders colonies had population and after beating their attack they had to recover people would start leaving outside mountains. Imagine you are raided by 50 local pirates that's like most of their colony trying to raid you. You kill them and defend your bas then you know there is no more raids from this group for few months. But if they take smaller losses then they can attack you in 2 weeks again.
Quote from: sparda666 on September 09, 2014, 10:34:52 AM
Outdoor bases are fine if you can locate it near a natural choke point or surround yourself with a stone wall. the rest is about carefully planning your building placement so you can create good cover. one good method is a hallway of doors. If the entrance of your base has a hallway of doors, you have some good cover and a place to fall back for early game defense.
Example:
= stonewall
- door
==-==-==-==-==-==-==
ENTRANCE
TO BASE
==-==-==-==-==-==-==
colonists can use the doorways as cover and as enemies approach, they can fall back to doors further back.
add crap in the hallway to slow enemies down.
I like the idea, give this man/woman a cookie.
Back on topic, ive tried both types, and prefer a mountain colony. Expansion is easier when you just need to dig out rather than chosing between opening up your perimeter wall to speed up the extention, or forcing your colonists to walk around the perimeter to build a few pieces of wall.
Then theres the abundance of metal as you find plenty of ore veins just building, and the free floor construction requiring no materials.
All you need is a way to combat the cabin fever, such as placing a garden between two busy parts of the colony.
the downside to killbox and mountain turtle is for several reasons
1) usually these require turrets, thus need more power, thus need more metallic resources.
2) a solarflare will indefinately screw over not only the kill-box but the entire colony far more then an outside, due to again relying on turrets and hydroponics and sun lamp for food.
3) droppods and gathering supplies will be absolute hell for killbox strategies. not as much as outside but it impacts differently.
5) mechanoids give no feels about your killbox/chokepoint.
6)explosive users love your chokepoint.
7)your chokepoint will be harder to escape from if insanity breaks through, which is easie compared to outside
Two Questions about underground colonies.
1: Does the overall wealth of a colony effect the size of the raiding force sent against you? If so using existing underground stone will decrease the value of your colony. Unlike walls built outside that contribute to overall colony wealth.
2: Can you launch a ship that is built INSIDE a large rock formation? I know you can build one inside a colony with a "built roof" and you don't have to "remove the roof region" to launch. Basically, I am curious about whether or not you can launch a ship from inside a mountain.
Quote from: hopdevil on September 12, 2014, 08:32:38 PM
Two Questions about underground colonies.
1: Does the overall wealth of a colony effect the size of the raiding force sent against you? If so using existing underground stone will decrease the value of your colony. Unlike walls built outside that contribute to overall colony wealth.
2: Can you launch a ship that is built INSIDE a large rock formation? I know you can build one inside a colony with a "built roof" and you don't have to "remove the roof region" to launch. Basically, I am curious about whether or not you can launch a ship from inside a mountain.
1) yes, though that is being changed a bit on alpha 7, the more colonists you have the larger raider force, however if you have too much wealth the same will happen.
2)doubt it
Quote from: Garen on September 12, 2014, 04:50:56 PM
the downside to killbox and mountain turtle is for several reasons
1) usually these require turrets, thus need more power, thus need more metallic resources.
2) a solarflare will indefinately screw over not only the kill-box but the entire colony far more then an outside, due to again relying on turrets and hydroponics and sun lamp for food.
3) droppods and gathering supplies will be absolute hell for killbox strategies. not as much as outside but it impacts differently.
5) mechanoids give no feels about your killbox/chokepoint.
6)explosive users love your chokepoint.
7)your chokepoint will be harder to escape from if insanity breaks through, which is easie compared to outside
Generally, you would want to build an access port near the killbox that can be sealed up when raiders are present which alleviates a lot of those issues. Mechanoids? Pah, "You don't need to be a better shot! You just need to shoot more bullets!". Turrets and as many Charge Rifles as you can get your hands on. Considering you're building into a mountain, metal should not be an issue. With some luck, you'll also uncover a valley with open air access and you can grow crops there should the hydroponics fail during a flare. Alternatively, install the TTM mod and keep it low-tech with oil-powered generators and grills, you can keep an entire base running on the oil generators, especially when oil is constantly spewed onto the map by the two deposits. Just keep a reserve of oil and you'll be kushty.
Quote from: Garen on September 12, 2014, 04:50:56 PM
the downside to killbox and mountain turtle is for several reasons
1) usually these require turrets, thus need more power, thus need more metallic resources.
2) a solarflare will indefinately screw over not only the kill-box but the entire colony far more then an outside, due to again relying on turrets and hydroponics and sun lamp for food.
3) droppods and gathering supplies will be absolute hell for killbox strategies. not as much as outside but it impacts differently.
5) mechanoids give no feels about your killbox/chokepoint.
6)explosive users love your chokepoint.
7)your chokepoint will be harder to escape from if insanity breaks through, which is easie compared to outside
I think you got quite a few things wrong.
1) I agree but metal is replaceable colonist are not it is much easier to get extra 2000 metal than extra 10 colonist.
2) Solar flair is a pain but not as bad as you may think. First of all you must plan things well if you get enough food then you have emergency stock pile that should last you for 2-3 days. So even if hydroponics die out you have enough to get you by while you replant and grow/ Also yes turret won't work but you can build killbox with access for both turrets and colonist. It will be less effective without turrets but will still provide you with some sort of defence better than outside colony can ever give you.
3)Why exactly? You can have back door exit that bypasses killbox and just wall it of when assault comes.
5) They die the same way as raiders. In killbox they get stunned a lot with all the turrets shooting at them so effectively most of the time they don't get to even take a shot.
6) You get chock point all wrong. Chock point is to choke them not us. In the chock point you have raiders coming one by one while you are spread around for maximum shooting angle.
7) As above colonist are not passing through choke point only raiders colonist stay in big open area with cover shooting at raiders coming out of chock point. Raiders will break much faster than colonist due to "witnessed ally death" penalty being higher than "witness stranger death".
Quote from: Feniks on September 14, 2014, 10:36:35 PM
Quote from: Garen on September 12, 2014, 04:50:56 PM
the downside to killbox and mountain turtle is for several reasons
1) usually these require turrets, thus need more power, thus need more metallic resources.
2) a solarflare will indefinately screw over not only the kill-box but the entire colony far more then an outside, due to again relying on turrets and hydroponics and sun lamp for food.
3) droppods and gathering supplies will be absolute hell for killbox strategies. not as much as outside but it impacts differently.
5) mechanoids give no feels about your killbox/chokepoint.
6)explosive users love your chokepoint.
7)your chokepoint will be harder to escape from if insanity breaks through, which is easie compared to outside
I think you got quite a few things wrong.
1) I agree but metal is replaceable colonist are not it is much easier to get extra 2000 metal than extra 10 colonist.
2) Solar flair is a pain but not as bad as you may think. First of all you must plan things well if you get enough food then you have emergency stock pile that should last you for 2-3 days. So even if hydroponics die out you have enough to get you by while you replant and grow/ Also yes turret won't work but you can build killbox with access for both turrets and colonist. It will be less effective without turrets but will still provide you with some sort of defence better than outside colony can ever give you.
3)Why exactly? You can have back door exit that bypasses killbox and just wall it of when assault comes.
5) They die the same way as raiders. In killbox they get stunned a lot with all the turrets shooting at them so effectively most of the time they don't get to even take a shot.
6) You get chock point all wrong. Chock point is to choke them not us. In the chock point you have raiders coming one by one while you are spread around for maximum shooting angle.
7) As above colonist are not passing through choke point only raiders colonist stay in big open area with cover shooting at raiders coming out of chock point. Raiders will break much faster than colonist due to "witnessed ally death" penalty being higher than "witness stranger death".
agreed in all points of this.
also, as some other dude pointed out. you can do the same turtle mechanics on an "outside" colony by making thick stone walls. the only drawback is that it would take much longer to do so, than just mining rooms inside of mountains.
Quote from: keylocke on September 14, 2014, 11:27:38 PM
also, as some other dude pointed out. you can do the same turtle mechanics on an "outside" colony by making thick stone walls. the only drawback is that it would take much longer to do so, than just mining rooms inside of mountains.
This is not entirely true... Overhead mountain protects you from mortars. Thick stone walls outside don’t.
I think that digging into the mountain is seriously overpowered at the moment. Making it more difficult to dig would make the game more realistic (we are NOT playing with dwarves, after all) and it would be easier to provide a challenge without sending 10000 pawns our way.
I like cave colonies now, but dislike that the normal rock walls do not conduct power. So I end up lining all rooms with metal walls anyway....
Quote from: stefanstr on September 15, 2014, 03:50:38 AM
Quote from: keylocke on September 14, 2014, 11:27:38 PM
also, as some other dude pointed out. you can do the same turtle mechanics on an "outside" colony by making thick stone walls. the only drawback is that it would take much longer to do so, than just mining rooms inside of mountains.
As to digging being OP I agree but with waves outnumbering you 5:1 and more at later stages of a game it is the only tactic that works. It's not even mortars or raids that is a problem but drop of 150 raiders in the middle of your base is game over.
I think if there was someway to prevent drops inside your base people would build outside more.
@nils in alpha 7 stone wall will be able to conduct power.
This is not entirely true... Overhead mountain protects you from mortars. Thick stone walls outside don�t.
I think that digging into the mountain is seriously overpowered at the moment. Making it more difficult to dig would make the game more realistic (we are NOT playing with dwarves, after all) and it would be easier to provide a challenge without sending 10000 pawns our way.
@Feniks, stone wall that you build will be able to conduct power, yes, but I doubt the rock you mine will be able to.
@nils, that seems like a waste of space and materials and time. Why not just run power conduits instead?
Quote from: milon on September 15, 2014, 06:56:47 AM
@Feniks, stone wall that you build will be able to conduct power, yes, but I doubt the rock you mine will be able to.
@nils, that seems like a waste of space and materials and time. Why not just run power conduits instead?
I still build walls inside my mountain bases. It is nicer looking, is more efficient at getting power around than conduits and I never worry about the ugly environment. It takes a bit longer but is so worth it in my opinion. Just because they live in caves, doesn't mean they have to live like cavemen. ;)
how is wall more efficient than power-line? Power-line is much cheaper. I tend to power-lines in most of my industrial structures and only one metal wall in bedrooms for apart of that it is just wasted metal.
I guess efficient wasn't the correct word. When I build walls (which can be wood by the way) I know that no matter where I need to place something in my base, it will have a direct connection to my power source. I don't need to worry about whether or not it is close enough to a conduit and if I need to make more. It is also a more organized system, which is really my main reason. It looks cleaner to me.
Quote from: Matthiasagreen on September 15, 2014, 10:27:16 AM
I guess efficient wasn't the correct word. When I build walls (which can be wood by the way) I know that no matter where I need to place something in my base, it will have a direct connection to my power source. I don't need to worry about whether or not it is close enough to a conduit and if I need to make more. It is also a more organized system, which is really my main reason. It looks cleaner to me.
(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11112/111122518/4021242-5893926616-BH8VO.jpg)
In all seriousness I typically use walls as well. At some point in the game I have more metal than I need (I never really try to "escape") but early when you're choked for metal, conduits save you a lot of headache.
I agree I run a hybrid of walls and conduits. Some places I have conduits running to provide power and it doesn't bother me usually my kitchen growing areas are one of them. Then in other places I have walls. But usually even with walls I tend to have 1 metal wall and rest rock to save on metal.
Quote from: stefanstr on September 15, 2014, 03:50:38 AM
This is not entirely true... Overhead mountain protects you from mortars. Thick stone walls outside don�t.
i kinda agree with this, but since you still need "no roofs" for your trading areas, your solar panels, your mortars, and your outdoor tree/flower growing zones, you still have have vulnerable points exposed, which tends to get damaged and needs repair during a siege.
but i agree that yes, you get more protection when bunking under a mountain, but most times you still don't go unscathed, regardless.
this is why i usually just trade blows with enemy mortars against 10 of my mortars manned by my best gunners, which tends to finish the enemy siege quickly enough that the enemy's hit/miss ratio becomes a bit of a moot point in the long run.
i attack them with several heavy mortar barrage, the enemy mortar blows with plenty of enemy casualties, the enemy decides to charge in, they get mowed down by my turrets, rinse and repeat.
i do the same strategy for both "under the mountain" base or on my "open field" base.
the mountain base is much easier to set up during the early stages, but in the late stages of the game, it hardly seems to matter.
Does Shooting skill affect mortar accuracy then?
Quote from: marvinkosh on September 16, 2014, 02:42:18 PM
Does Shooting skill affect mortar accuracy then?
I don’t think it does.
Quote from: marvinkosh on September 16, 2014, 02:42:18 PM
Does Shooting skill affect mortar accuracy then?
It probably does, but I'm pretty sure mortars have a forced miss radius similar to miniguns. A guy with 20 in shooting spraying at dirt directly in front of him with a minigun will still miss like 2/3rds their shots.
Quote from: stefanstr on September 16, 2014, 04:08:57 PM
Quote from: marvinkosh on September 16, 2014, 02:42:18 PM
Does Shooting skill affect mortar accuracy then?
I don�t think it does.
ah, i didn't know that. (though i hope shooting skills affects mortars eventually)
it's just that i usually man my mortars with nobles and assassins since they don't got much to do anyways, i just let them shoot and cycle between the mortars while force firing on enemy mortars (it feels more accurate than letting them randomly shoot at the moving raiders).
The fact they don't have anything to do with skills I kinda view as a light blessing, because it does give you some military purpose to your less competent characters, those people with no 'passion' for shooting or melee. Not sure if an 'incapable of violent can man mortars...
Though I personally wouldn't mind a 'sieging' skill or a way to improve mortar accuracy. Perhaps a buildable module? maybe 2 of them working like an autonomous 'spotter and sniper' pair? Not making the mortars themselves automatic, but, just like a little device that reads the mortars firing angle, and a device that registers where the shot lands to help 'pin point' shots. *shrugs*
Quote from: Zsword on September 16, 2014, 08:48:39 PM
Not sure if an 'incapable of violent can man mortars...
iirc, i had an empath man a mortar sometimes. but it don't really make much sense. i think it's either a bug or just an oversight on Tynan's part.
Quote from: Zsword on September 16, 2014, 08:48:39 PM
Though I personally wouldn't mind a 'sieging' skill or a way to improve mortar accuracy. Perhaps a buildable module? maybe 2 of them working like an autonomous 'spotter and sniper' pair? Not making the mortars themselves automatic, but, just like a little device that reads the mortars firing angle, and a device that registers where the shot lands to help 'pin point' shots. *shrugs*
i think it would be simpler to just use the "shooting" skills for the mortars. my assassins and nobles have nothing much to do anyways other than going idle, while the other peeps have other tasks they can focus on.
Can you still do mountain colonies?
Quote from: DarkMyau on September 17, 2014, 12:04:16 AM
Can you still do mountain colonies?
Yes, you just have to account for cabin fever and plan your colony accordingly. so lots of roses and moral boosters!
This rumor needs to stop. No skill currently affects mortar accuracy.
Quote from: Tynan on July 06, 2014, 10:18:03 AM
Shooting skill doesn't affect mortar accuracy as of now.
I am aware of the sniper-vs-siege semi-exploit. Thinking about ways to counter that - I may just have the siegers go into assault mode once about 25% of them have died.
And yes, you definitely can have violence-incapable colonists man mortars. At least currently. ;)