Ammunition

[Gazz]

Ammo is a real idea; it's kind of weird it's missing. There's a lot of other stuff I want to address first, though. Ammo is lower priority because

-It wouldn't really become important very often
-When it was important, it would often obstruct players in an annoying way. I classify this system as a new way to obstruct players, not a new way to give them opportunities. Yes, interesting stories could emerge from ammo shortages, but I'm not sure it's worth the annoyances of dealing with the logistics behind it
-There are many other systems that rate higher in design benefit versus design cost, to my mind. Making the AI manage ammo well would be really hard; they payoff would be minimal.

If we did do ammo, the first version would be limited to artillery pieces (which aren't yet in the game, though they were there in a super early prototype last year, with FTL-style direct controls)

Considering the scope of the game, micromanaging ammo (as in counting bullets) doesn't add anything but a chore.

Now magazine size and reload speed - those are properties that can give weapons a distinct flavour.


You can still have magazine or ammo management in an inventory sense.
Put a magazine into the inventory and it allows for a fast reload... then it has a cooldown of a few minutes.
The more magazines the character carries, the more often he can speed-load his rifle.
He can always reload without magazines but that takes a lot longer.

That puts inventory space and carrying capacity back on the balancing table.

Overall you get (pretty much) the same effect as if you went old-school and counted every damn bullet in the character's inventory. In a way that skips all the micromanagement but leaves in the decision in how to equip a character. Depth without unnecessary complexity. =)

If we did do ammo, the first version would be limited to artillery pieces

Or one-shot rocket launchers like LAW.

With the above system, you could have an RPG-7 and maybe 2 HE rockets in the character's inventory.
The character gets 3 shots. Reloading the RPG without a "magazine" could take something impractical like 2 minutes.
Better to switch to a pistol or the likes...

[Spike]

From my impression of the gameplay videos, I am against ammo in general.  I could see it being a good thing for heavy weapons as Tynan mentioned, but not for simple firearms.

Gazz, I like a portion of your idea - weapon stats.  Expand it from simple range and damage to include mag size & reload speed, but I would abstract the actual carrying, production or buying of magazines.

[Gazz]

Expand it from simple range and damage to include mag size & reload speed, but I would abstract the actual carrying, production or buying of magazines.

The magazines that I suggested would not be used up.
You can use the same "magazine" maybe 10 times every hour.

Basically, they are a reload speed bonus that costs inventory space or weight. The reload speed is the actual property that matters.

The player still has the ability to tinker with loadouts (carry more or less ammo) but the colonists do not have to run around and fetch more ammo - neither do you have to produce more bullets every time a magazine is "used".

It's the middle ground between the XCOM:EU system (reloading but completely unlimited reloads) and the completely detailed approach of JA2 where every bullet in every magazine is tracked and an empty magazine is just gone.

[British]

There's no inventory for the time being, and I do happen to like it that way.

We already have weapons that have stats, so having even more stats or complicated concepts (reload speed, bonuses, limited uses per hour... really ?!) would only add more confusion and doesn't strike me as beneficial for a game that is *not* focused on fighting (but that's still a necessary evil, of course), but on having an evolving and fun story.
Imagining a late-game with a dozen colonists, and having to deal with the reload bonuses they might each have... well, I can't picture it as fun.

[Semmy]

Correct me if im wrong.
I cant find the post atm since im at work but didnt tynan state that he wouldnt add ammo?

[British]

Correct me if im wrong.
I cant find the post atm since im at work but didnt tynan state that he wouldnt add ammo?

Oh hai Search function, how are you holding up, being ignored and all ?

http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=78.msg963#msg963
"Ammo is a real idea; it's kind of weird it's missing. There's a lot of other stuff I want to address first, though. Ammo is lower priority because

-It wouldn't really become important very often
-When it was important, it would often obstruct players in an annoying way. I classify this system as a new way to obstruct players, not a new way to give them opportunities. Yes, interesting stories could emerge from ammo shortages, but I'm not sure it's worth the annoyances of dealing with the logistics behind it
-There are many other systems that rate higher in design benefit versus design cost, to my mind. Making the AI manage ammo well would be really hard; they payoff would be minimal.

If we did do ammo, the first version would be limited to artillery pieces (which aren't yet in the game, though they were there in a super early prototype last year, with FTL-style direct controls)"

[Semmy]

Correct me if im wrong.
I cant find the post atm since im at work but didnt tynan state that he wouldnt add ammo?

Oh hai Search function, how are you holding up, being ignored and all ?

http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=78.msg963#msg963
"Ammo is a real idea; it's kind of weird it's missing. There's a lot of other stuff I want to address first, though. Ammo is lower priority because

-It wouldn't really become important very often
-When it was important, it would often obstruct players in an annoying way. I classify this system as a new way to obstruct players, not a new way to give them opportunities. Yes, interesting stories could emerge from ammo shortages, but I'm not sure it's worth the annoyances of dealing with the logistics behind it
-There are many other systems that rate higher in design benefit versus design cost, to my mind. Making the AI manage ammo well would be really hard; they payoff would be minimal.

If we did do ammo, the first version would be limited to artillery pieces (which aren't yet in the game, though they were there in a super early prototype last year, with FTL-style direct controls)"

Thanks british...

finding that post was to hard on my galaxy s mini

[SpaceEatingTrex]

From what I've have seen of gameplay videos, introducing consumable ammo for common weapons would also introduce a lot of micromanagement for players. I don't think the benefits of it would be worth the liabilities.

However, we could still have an ammunition system without the need for an inventory. There could be different ammo types that are researched, and weapons could have an option to use different types of ammo. Examples would be things like armor-piercing bullets, hollow points, and rubber bullets.  A system like assumes an infinite amount of each kind of ammo so we don't have to worry about consumption or ammo management, but it still provides some amount of depth in ammo selection.

Would that satisfy people looking for an ammo system without introducing the micromanagement of consumable ammo?

[Gazz]

finding that post was to hard on my galaxy s mini

Reading the first post in this topic should have worked. =)

[CommieKazie]

Magazines (as you propose) do not make any sense.  They don't magically 'reload' after a cooldown.  And you don't have the ability to 'reload slower' without magazines.

You reload through magazines.  Without magazines you are completely incapable of reloading.  A more sensible way would be that character can carry X magazines, giving them X reloads.  Their reload speed is dependent upon weapon type and skill.

You would then have support colonists who run magazines from the fighters to the colony armory, where a few colonists reload the magazines from the ammo dump.  This could create an interesting system in longer engagements, as you would have to maintain a supply line, but I doubt engagements would ever last long enough.

I agree with most of the people here that ammo is unnecessary, along with any sort of magazine complications.  Weapons should have unique reload speeds (and perhaps increased skill increases reload speed), but beyond that we should leave it be.

[Conti027]

Having ammunition would be a great idea. It would add more depth to fire fights and while fire fights aren't the main focus they are a big part of the game.

I really liked what CommieKazie said,
"You would then have support colonists who run magazines from the fighters to the colony armory, where a few colonists reload the magazines from the ammo dump.  This could create an interesting system in longer engagements, as you would have to maintain a supply line, but I doubt engagements would ever last long enough."
It would also be important where you put your ammo cache.

Most people are concerned about micromanaging but not all micromanaging is bad.
An inventory system its not necessary and might add a little to much micromanaging depending on how its done but that doesn't mean your colonists can't carry items around with them. Say a gun and some ammo or tools for building,mining,growing,doctor tools, etc. The inventory system is still there but the colonists decide on what they need and carry depending on what they are doing and because of this this makes micromanaging important on what they are doing and not what they have on them.

[Spike]

Tynan already said

If we did do ammo, the first version would be limited to artillery pieces (which aren't yet in the game, though they were there in a super early prototype last year, with FTL-style direct controls)"

[CommieKazie]

Tynan already said

If we did do ammo, the first version would be limited to artillery pieces (which aren't yet in the game, though they were there in a super early prototype last year, with FTL-style direct controls)"

Yes, and if you read OP's post, you see that Gazz quoted that line twice.  Gazz is discussing further implementation some day down the road.  Just because it's not going to happen soon doesn't mean it should be glossed over.  (By that logic there really wouldn't be much to discuss).

No harm in kicking around a few ideas and polishing them in the community's collective mind.  Then if Tynan brings it up ever (not just this, anything we're talking about that is down the road), we already have well formed opinions and reasoning behind them.  (Ideally.  I mean, this is the internet we're talking about...)

[Morrigi]

+1 for an ammo system, even if it's only for heavy weapons initially.