So, I 'lost' a game this morning to a tribal raid, and the Great Bow is the single culprit. I don't know the exact stats, but I know that in the early game, my riflemen cannot reliably out-range them. Worse, as far as I can tell (and this is probably confirmation bias), the Great Bow has the single highest chance in the game - above and beyond bladed melee weapons - to suddenly and forcibly remove a man's limbs. No other enemy in the game is scarier to me than one that can - with his very first shot (and dressed like Fred Flintstone, no less) - reduce my armored, 14 shooting bionic super-soldier to a weeping, legless cripple.
Am I the only one who finds this absurd? My technologically advanced, better armed, armored soldiers should not be at any great risk of losing limbs to men in loin cloths shooting pointy sticks.
Ever been shot by a longbow?
Well neither have I but I'm guessing it's not very fun!
As for the weapon balance - You can open up the ranged weapon table yourself ( Dev mode, logging button (top right), ranged weapon table ) and see how it compares.
It's much better than the short bow, still a pretty average weapon overall though.
Quote from: Boboid on March 10, 2015, 01:05:26 AM
Ever been shot by a longbow?
Well neither have I but I'm guessing it's not very fun!
I imagine it would be - but I dont think it would be blowing limbs off - even the .50's legendary power is simply that a myth - unless you are shooting people with either many, many,
manybullets, explosive rounds, or 20mm type rounds, you aren't blowing a limb off.
For all we know those arrows have grenades attached!
Maybe the raiders use these arrows?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXxPZUDqAQ
Fairly safe assumption I would say.
Working on a few assumptions:
"Great Bow" is referring to something akin to an English Longbow.
The bow is made from wood and not exotic carbon materials and utilising cam systems.
You can expect a draw weight of between 60 and 120 pounds for an average bow with exceptionally rare pieces maybe being half as much again. In laboratory tests that were done a few years back the actual power of such bows was not sufficient to penetrate plate armour of average quality except at near point blank range. The legend of a longbow being able to fell a mounted and armoured knight is at best wildly apocryphal and at worst outright smoke. Now, it IS possible that an arrow could strike one of the few weak spots in a "tin suit", but even if it did, it would still need to penetrate the padded linen gambesson underneath it (which has actually proved to be MORE resistant to arrow fire than "chainmail" style armours in the same lab tests). THEN it would need to strike a vital organ such as the lungs or heart as the actual damage from impact is very minor unless you start looking at more modern and exotic arrow heads.
In short.... big bows are OP for limb removal, they're organ killers, not limb cutters.
Quote from: WintericeUK on March 10, 2015, 02:04:13 AM
Working on a few assumptions:
"Great Bow" is referring to something akin to an English Longbow.
The bow is made from wood and not exotic carbon materials and utilising cam systems.
You can expect a draw weight of between 60 and 120 pounds for an average bow with exceptionally rare pieces maybe being half as much again. In laboratory tests that were done a few years back the actual power of such bows was not sufficient to penetrate plate armour of average quality except at near point blank range. The legend of a longbow being able to fell a mounted and armoured knight is at best wildly apocryphal and at worst outright smoke. Now, it IS possible that an arrow could strike one of the few weak spots in a "tin suit", but even if it did, it would still need to penetrate the padded linen gambesson underneath it (which has actually proved to be MORE resistant to arrow fire than "chainmail" style armours in the same lab tests). THEN it would need to strike a vital organ such as the lungs or heart as the actual damage from impact is very minor unless you start looking at more modern and exotic arrow heads.
In short.... big bows are OP for limb removal, they're organ killers, not limb cutters.
source?
Yeah I remember reading something along the lines of that - while not the best source I do believe they even done some testing along those lines for the Deadliest Warrior show.
Also: wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_longbow#Modern_testing
The classic longbow shoots a low velocity, inaccurate projectile. They were great as a medieval weapon in massed volleys, as medieval levies were generally very lightly and sparingly armored, and a 30 inch arrow jutting from your thigh will effectively hamper your ability (and certainly willingness) to continue the fight. In small scale combat against men with rifles of any kind wearing kevlar (discounting more modern broadhead arrows), the disadvantages would be insurmountable, forcing the archers to rely on a large numerical advantage and debilitating numbers of superficial wounds to incapacitate the enemy. Meanwhile, the "survival rifle," formerly known as Lee-Enfield is (in real life) capable of - comfortably (6 a minute vs 20-30 a minute) - triple the accurate fire rate and better than five times the effective range... The tribals should be toast.
Well the survival rifle has more range and much higher firerate than a great bow, set your defenses up according to range and make sure to hide your sniper behind a wall, you should be fine if randy doesnt throw in consecutive raids.
I do love great bows in my early game though if I have a high lvl crafter with me, he can sometimes produce some excellent ones, those have acceptable accuracy even at longest range.
I find the limb removal mechanic in general to be a bit excessive, the only weapons we have actually capable of that would be grenades, rocket launchers and longswords. Sure arrows and bullets could mangle an arm or a leg if enough of them strike it, but not blow it off.
I do like that people can get fingers and toes shot off, that is plausible enough. The whole limb is kinda silly however, I think if the "hp" of a limb reaches zero it should be heavily scarred, unusable until healed, and also have a very high chance of infection without a very competent doctor treating it. That way we would also have more instances of amputation being an option
Quote from: Cazakatari on March 10, 2015, 10:19:55 AM
I find the limb removal mechanic in general to be a bit excessive, the only weapons we have actually capable of that would be grenades, rocket launchers and longswords. Sure arrows and bullets could mangle an arm or a leg if enough of them strike it, but not blow it off.
I do like that people can get fingers and toes shot off, that is plausible enough. The whole limb is kinda silly however, I think if the "hp" of a limb reaches zero it should be heavily scarred, unusable until healed, and also have a very high chance of infection without a very competent doctor treating it. That way we would also have more instances of amputation being an option
I fully agree. Limb loss should be a result of an injury instead of being severed in battle. Bullet to the shoulder, infection sets in, amputation to stop the infection. Much better model
Quote from: Cazakatari on March 10, 2015, 10:19:55 AM
I find the limb removal mechanic in general to be a bit excessive, the only weapons we have actually capable of that would be grenades, rocket launchers and longswords. Sure arrows and bullets could mangle an arm or a leg if enough of them strike it, but not blow it off.
I do like that people can get fingers and toes shot off, that is plausible enough. The whole limb is kinda silly however, I think if the "hp" of a limb reaches zero it should be heavily scarred, unusable until healed, and also have a very high chance of infection without a very competent doctor treating it. That way we would also have more instances of amputation being an option
Lets not even mention that limbs have literally the same health value as internal organs like heart and liver. Take a high-power round to the liver? Sure, that thing is for all intents destroyed. But a 7.62x51mm completely severing a leg in one hit? Not unless you're the Gingerbread man.
Bows are pretty silly at the moment. If firearms actually had magazines/ammo and pawns could perform follow-up shots and stuff, then at least they'd have an advantage over great bows.
Quote from: NoImageAvailable on March 10, 2015, 12:11:36 PM
Lets not even mention that limbs have literally the same health value as internal organs like heart and liver.
Arms and legs have 30 health, and the harvestable organs (heart, lungs, kidneys, liver) have 20.
Maybe the game could incorporate a 'firing from cover' idea with round fired from a emplaced position (from behind a sandbag) have a higher to hit chance, have lesser wounds be more incapacitating and an increase/additions to the wound management process. This would mean that your colonists would be more likely to hit the enemy when they are in position, everyone would be more likely to go down when shot, and being shot, even slightly would be more of a worry.
Quote from: Cimanyd on March 10, 2015, 01:02:00 PM
Quote from: NoImageAvailable on March 10, 2015, 12:11:36 PM
Lets not even mention that limbs have literally the same health value as internal organs like heart and liver.
Arms and legs have 30 health, and the harvestable organs (heart, lungs, kidneys, liver) have 20.
Must've been changed then, still ridiculous though.
Quote from: ZestyLemons on March 10, 2015, 12:48:36 PM
Bows are pretty silly at the moment. If firearms actually had magazines/ammo and pawns could perform follow-up shots and stuff, then at least they'd have an advantage over great bows.
To be perfectly clear every single firearm has higher dps even at "long" range except for the Pistol, Heavy SMG, and PDW.
At their appropriate ranges they all blow the Great bow out of the water. All this information is available to you, it's mostly just a perception problem.
Quote from: NoImageAvailable on March 10, 2015, 12:11:36 PM
Lets not even mention that limbs have literally the same health value as internal organs like heart and liver. Take a high-power round to the liver? Sure, that thing is for all intents destroyed. But a 7.62x51mm completely severing a leg in one hit? Not unless you're the Gingerbread man.
I would suggest raising the hp values of limbs, but that would make incapacitating even more difficult, not sure I'd like that.
As for the topic on hand, great bows seem much more devastating than they actually are because there's 2x-20x as many of them shooting at you, and of conventional weapons they out-range everything but the rifle and the sniper. This is why killboxes or at least line of sight traps are basically required against tribals mid-late game, it's the combination of range and number of shots
In my first game before I'd even heard of a killbox, the first large wave (I think 10-20) of tribals destroyed all my turrets from afar and had me panicking. Thankfully after killing the melee and a few others they ran. After that I built walls to break line of sight so they'd have to get within turret range. Combat was a boring affair after that
Just abandoned another colony this morning because one single jerk with a pila one-shot removed limbs from two of my colonists in the same firefight about 20 minutes in, and I lost my will to play the game. There's no excuse for tribal weapons to be this overpowered. I think I'm going to teach myself to mod just so I can figure out what the hell is wrong with tribal weapons and fix them.
Quote from: Mikhail Reign on March 10, 2015, 01:17:38 AM
Maybe the raiders use these arrows?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXxPZUDqAQ
I was really hoping you were referencing the UHF parody: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SW7-8C8kL4
but the original will do.
I find that PILA is the most devastating as far as limb removal. This is only from experience, not actually pulling any data to back that up.
In fact, I might be able to shed light on a potential bug in lines with this discussion. When I have really really troublesome prisoners who constantly mental break, and the game refuses to throw me a bone (slave trader), I have a very practical way of dealing with the situation. Equip someone with a Pila. Now go force attack the perpetrator. Chances are your taking off a leg withing 2 or 3 tries. But I'd say 80% of the time you take off a limb at point blank range. You're going for legs because a prisoner with no legs can't get out of bed. You know what that means right? No more mental breaks. Forever. For anything. You can see that once a pawn is bedridden from a missing leg, they have no mood modifiers anymore. You can put them in a 1x2 room without lights and blood all over the ceiling floors and walls. Honey pawn don't give a f*ck! :)
Quote from: Mikhail Reign on March 10, 2015, 01:13:20 AM
Quote from: Boboid on March 10, 2015, 01:05:26 AM
Ever been shot by a longbow?
Well neither have I but I'm guessing it's not very fun!
I imagine it would be - but I dont think it would be blowing limbs off - even the .50's legendary power is simply that a myth - unless you are shooting people with either many, many, manybullets, explosive rounds, or 20mm type rounds, you aren't blowing a limb off.
That's not completely true. It's a little morbid, but there's a lot of video evidence and soldiers' accounts of 50 cal rounds ripping off limbs and shredding bodies apart, especially when chambered in high velocity anti-materiel rifles like the M82. Such weapons are supposed to be employed against lightly armoured vehicles, so using them against human targets is pretty obscene overkill, and it's no surprise they cause horrific injuries. The 'myth' is more that they have this capability even when the bullet misses the target by just a little. That's almost certainly not true.
Personally, I would like to see limbs have a chance to be 'mangled' instead of simply being destroyed when their hit points fall to 0. It would have the same immediate effect as a lost limb, but could be treated and saved. I think limbs should only be destroyed if they take a certain threshold of damage in one go, perhaps their HP + 10 or something like that.
I could see them being literally removed by bladed weapons, but not by pointy sticks or small arms fire. I like the idea of them being mangled or disabled until they get proper treatment or something.
Quote from: SpaceDrunk on March 14, 2015, 05:30:52 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Reign on March 10, 2015, 01:13:20 AM
Quote from: Boboid on March 10, 2015, 01:05:26 AM
Ever been shot by a longbow?
Well neither have I but I'm guessing it's not very fun!
I imagine it would be - but I dont think it would be blowing limbs off - even the .50's legendary power is simply that a myth - unless you are shooting people with either many, many, manybullets, explosive rounds, or 20mm type rounds, you aren't blowing a limb off.
That's not completely true. It's a little morbid, but there's a lot of video evidence and soldiers' accounts of 50 cal rounds ripping off limbs and shredding bodies apart, especially when chambered in high velocity anti-materiel rifles like the M82. Such weapons are supposed to be employed against lightly armoured vehicles, so using them against human targets is pretty obscene overkill, and it's no surprise they cause horrific injuries. The 'myth' is more that they have this capability even when the bullet misses the target by just a little. That's almost certainly not true.
Personally, I would like to see limbs have a chance to be 'mangled' instead of simply being destroyed when their hit points fall to 0. It would have the same immediate effect as a lost limb, but could be treated and saved. I think limbs should only be destroyed if they take a certain threshold of damage in one go, perhaps their HP + 10 or something like that.
They really don't. AM rounds don't tumble. Tumbling is what causes the most damage. Just watch any video that shows a AM round hitting ballistic gel. Sure if it hits a bone, it can cause bone fragments to mangle the limb, but the actual round passes cleanly through the target.
And yeah, the '.50 nearly hits and still does damage' myth is exactly that - a myth. It doesnt cause ANY damage from a near miss.
Quote from: Mikhail Reign on March 15, 2015, 02:28:54 AM
Quote from: SpaceDrunk on March 14, 2015, 05:30:52 PM
Quote from: Mikhail Reign on March 10, 2015, 01:13:20 AM
Quote from: Boboid on March 10, 2015, 01:05:26 AM
Ever been shot by a longbow?
Well neither have I but I'm guessing it's not very fun!
I imagine it would be - but I dont think it would be blowing limbs off - even the .50's legendary power is simply that a myth - unless you are shooting people with either many, many, manybullets, explosive rounds, or 20mm type rounds, you aren't blowing a limb off.
That's not completely true. It's a little morbid, but there's a lot of video evidence and soldiers' accounts of 50 cal rounds ripping off limbs and shredding bodies apart, especially when chambered in high velocity anti-materiel rifles like the M82. Such weapons are supposed to be employed against lightly armoured vehicles, so using them against human targets is pretty obscene overkill, and it's no surprise they cause horrific injuries. The 'myth' is more that they have this capability even when the bullet misses the target by just a little. That's almost certainly not true.
Personally, I would like to see limbs have a chance to be 'mangled' instead of simply being destroyed when their hit points fall to 0. It would have the same immediate effect as a lost limb, but could be treated and saved. I think limbs should only be destroyed if they take a certain threshold of damage in one go, perhaps their HP + 10 or something like that.
They really don't. AM rounds don't tumble. Tumbling is what causes the most damage. Just watch any video that shows a AM round hitting ballistic gel. Sure if it hits a bone, it can cause bone fragments to mangle the limb, but the actual round passes cleanly through the target.
And yeah, the '.50 nearly hits and still does damage' myth is exactly that - a myth. It doesnt cause ANY damage from a near miss.
The main damage comes from transfer of energy disrupting nearby tissue. Tumbling can aid in that but even without it, the sheer amount of energy in a .50cal means that even with just a fraction of energy transfered it would still do much more damage than low-energy rounds. In terms of numbers a .50 BMG transferring only 2% of its muzzle energy into a target would do as much damage as a pistol round transferring 100%. And all this is before considering body armor penetration which would induce tumbling and therefore increase energy transfer.
While being pierced by an arrow is generally more dangerous than, say, being shot with a pistol or rifle, taking off limbs is just way over the top. I wouldn't mind seeing limbs shredded/mangled/infected by most weapons, placing them in need of amputation, but very few weapons should be able to completely remove them on the spot. Explosives, longswords, and maybe shotguns are the only ones in the game I know of that could do so.
it amuses me that tribal weapons rarely cause infection. i know med packs have disinfectant, but theres alot of goop that can get on a bunch of tribal weapons :P
Oh I'm not saying that they don't do tremendous amounts of soft tissue damage, but there is a world of hurt between that and blowing limbs off. AM rounds don't transfer energy to soft tissue very well - they mostly pass straight through - they have an air cushion/shock wave that encompasses which is actually what is causing a lot of the damage on soft targets. The image that I am arguing against here is the Day of the Jackle-esc .50 hits arms and blows it to pieces.
Part of it comes from .50 rounds being made to penetrate - if it's made to punch through armour or steel plate AND hit what's on the other side, what kind of resistance do you think a flesh sack puts up?
I always pictured Greatbows as these things.
(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130816224803/darksouls/images/1/12/Dragonslayer_greatbow_ig.png)
Mainly because I played a lot of TTM and there were Longbows, Shortbows and Greatbows. I almost feel tempted to make an archery mod and having an actual greatbow.
EDIT:
I do think that the damage model does need tweaking. There should probably be a "CAN_SEVER_LIMBS: TRUE/FALSE" somewhere in the weapon files and it should really only apply to larger melee weapons such as longswords although even at that, I don't think your average man has the capability to hew an arm off in a single blow. It would be a messy affair and require several swings to hack through muscle and bone. Or it'd require a sword with edges so keen that it could be used in surgery. Swords of all sizes are typically used to slash, bludgeon or stab, not cut. Go watch videos of historical enthusiasts hacking away at ballistic gel. Your average blade would sink several inches deep before stopping. That assumes you're attacking a naked person made of consistent jelly. Add some clothes, a leather duster, some body armour underneath, skin, muscle and bone and you're really gonna have your work cut out for you trying to take a limb off, no pun intended. All of it would slow a blade down immensely and require either superhuman strength or an unnaturally sharp blade that should just not be possible for Joe Bloggs with 12 crafting to create on a generic workstation. .50 cal rounds do not simply gib limbs at the shoulder either or the base of the thigh, as happens in Rimworld. Catastrophic damage, yes, shearing limbs, no.
My only real problems with bows, apart the ridiculous range, is that they can actually damage and destroy a freaking steel constructed automated turret... seriously get a bow and arrow and try to put even a dent in any steel structure or apparatus with it.. you'll be there for a long long time with 0 results to show for it.
Even dudes with clubs messing a turret up makes more sense (not dudes with shivs though...) imo bows plus knives/shivs should be 100% inefficient against constructions of any kind, they SHOULD NOT be able to blow up a STEEL turret period, they should also be rendered useless by powered armor and such.
Quote from: onarum on March 15, 2015, 07:10:30 PM
My only real problems with bows, apart the ridiculous range, is that they can actually damage and destroy a freaking steel constructed automated turret... seriously get a bow and arrow and try to put even a dent in any steel structure or apparatus with it.. you'll be there for a long long time with 0 results to show for it.
Even dudes with clubs messing a turret up makes more sense (not dudes with shivs though...) imo bows plus knives/shivs should be 100% inefficient against constructions of any kind, they SHOULD NOT be able to blow up a STEEL turret period, they should also be rendered useless by powered armor and such.
remember they are
improvised turrets, with likely many moving parts exposed. It doesn't matter if it's a stone, an arrow or a severed limb, something jamming a gear is bad news.
Well, if the turret example isn't working for you, they can also shoot and destroy granite mountainsides.
This is the same game where any and all raiders can thrust their legless bodies at an object to set it on fire. I guess one must assume that they -all- carry a flint and steel.
Quote from: Goo Poni on March 15, 2015, 11:38:56 PM
This is the same game where any and all raiders can thrust their legless bodies at an object to set it on fire. I guess one must assume that they -all- carry a flint and steel.
Also the same game where colonists will rush into a 600 degree room and smash their faces against a fire until they, too, are on fire, and then run around in circles screaming for a while.
And the same game where every object is created on the spot with no tools and only the material required to make the basic framework.
Solar panels are totally just made out of steel.. right? And the steps from Steel->Working solar panel only take about.. 2 hours :P
Well.. in the games defenes, the pawns do seen to have a welder or something - the flashes have to some from something.
It's the sparks from their teeth impacting on the stone/steel.
Quote from: Mikhail Reign on March 16, 2015, 05:37:46 AM
Well.. in the games defenes, the pawns do seen to have a welder or something - the flashes have to some from something.
It's my belief that these things are done with their mouths. They chew up rocks to make steel (I like that explanation more than "it was already like that"), bit rubble into bricks, melt stone with their saliva for mortar, and shoot flames from their mouths when they need to weld things.
Quote from: Goo Poni on March 15, 2015, 06:51:19 PM
-Greatbows-
Now if only Rimworld had Z-levels, you could set up a base with the only entrance being a buttress guarded by two archers.
Quote from: NoImageAvailable on March 16, 2015, 06:39:48 AM
Quote from: Goo Poni on March 15, 2015, 06:51:19 PM
-Greatbows-
Now if only Rimworld had Z-levels, you could set up a base with the only entrance being a buttress guarded by two archers.
This being Rimworld, you'd probably need 8-10 archers just to stand a chance of one of them connecting. The others will fire in such bizarrely wonky direction, you wonder how they manage to not hit teammates beside them.
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 16, 2015, 02:43:33 AM
Quote from: Goo Poni on March 15, 2015, 11:38:56 PM
This is the same game where any and all raiders can thrust their legless bodies at an object to set it on fire. I guess one must assume that they -all- carry a flint and steel.
Also the same game where colonists will rush into a 600 degree room and smash their faces against a fire until they, too, are on fire, and then run around in circles screaming for a while.
This is way more amusing than it should be. xD
I have had experiences in games where colonist all tend to take one VERY SPECIFIC kind of injury, in a previous game half of my colonist all had their left eye shot out, I even replaced a few with bionic eyes and had one guy who had his eye shot out AGAIN. Although one of the worst fates your colonist can suffer is brain scaring (my current game favorite kind of injury) where your colonist are debilitated to little more then potatoes, all abilities and walking speed cut by 50%
For some reason in my last game I've seen around 4 people with the RIGHT leg chopped off by a sword. Not a single person with the left leg missing.
One of my guys had his right leg chopped off, then I installed him a bionic leg. There were pirates with two sniper rifles just outside my base, with some rock walls nearby. So I had the idea to send my Careful Shooter with the bionic leg and a charge rifle and flank the sniper up close. I did that, and HE SHOT MY HAND OFF while I was in hard cover. I was so pissed. Now I have the ship built for 14 colonists, and I think I'll wait some more before launch until I can buy him a bionic hand.
Quote from: Goo Poni on March 15, 2015, 06:51:19 PMI don't think your average man has the capability to hew an arm off in a single blow. It would be a messy affair and require several swings to hack through muscle and bone. Or it'd require a sword with edges so keen that it could be used in surgery.
A longsword or arming sword will go just fine through an unprotected arm. A gladius or machete will do it in a couple whacks. Super-keen edges are for fiction, mainly. Real swords, axes, etc. used in war were ground with convex edges, as you would use on a wood maul or general-purpose hatchet - just with a thinner, wider, lighter overall blade design. A "dull" blade two to three feet out from the hilt will go right through muscle and bone, and do it without rolling or otherwise damaging the edge. It'll also hold up better against impacts with armor, the flat or haft of another weapon, and other various other inadvertent obstacles.
Quote from: WintericeUK on March 10, 2015, 02:04:13 AM
In laboratory tests that were done a few years back the actual power of such bows was not sufficient to penetrate plate armour of average quality except at near point blank range. The legend of a longbow being able to fell a mounted and armoured knight is at best wildly apocryphal and at worst outright smoke.
Absolutely correct! Which is why the crossbow was invented.
Quote from: NephilimNexus on March 16, 2015, 06:48:46 PM
Quote from: WintericeUK on March 10, 2015, 02:04:13 AM
Absolutely correct! Which is why the crossbow was invented.
Crossbows were invented in ancient China and ancient Europe, both, when piercing refined late medieval plate was not an issue. Crossbows serve the purpose of providing a weapon that requires far, far less training to become effective with, as well as one that can be kept immediately ready to fire on guard duty. They are not armor-piercing magic; that's why European armor didn't change drastically until firearms became a widespread battlefield weapon, with cuirasses getting heavier and the rest of harness covering less to compensate for the increasing weight. It's also one reason why bows remained weapons of war even after crossbows were widespread - their effectiveness against armor (or the unarmored) wasn't that dissimilar.
Crossbows do have much heavier draw weights, but that's because they need them as that force is applied to the projectile during a much shorter impulse, relative to a bow.
Crossbows didn't become widespread in Europe until late medieval, shortly before the advent of firearms. They lost mainly to firearms, not bows. Still, the trigger and the stock used in a firearm bears striking resemblance to a crossbow. Even some photographers love it, because it allow to hold the camera very stable. The only flaw is that such a camera is dangerous to use in war zones, you look like aiming a weapon.
And yet, crossbows were supposedly banned by pope against Christians, because they threatened social order. A peasant with 2 weeks of training could shoot down a noble mounted knight with a lifetime of training.
Limbs removal is a myth for you... But it should not be.
Displaced fracture, comminuted fracture, open fracture, all those kind of bone fractures are very difficult to recover and need a proper hospital to heal completely.
Bones can shatter or fracture in a way you cannot fix or properly fix, making you lose the limb instantly.
Nerves can be cut off inside, ligaments cut off badly or totally, bone marrow could make you die.
Arrows can cause some of those injuries ad even instant death shot from a longbow, even a simple bow, even medieval ones. Mid-Large Melee weapons (knives and shivs maybe for fingers/hands) would also make you lose a limb easily in the proper hands.
Crushed shapeless, cut off completely, cut badly inside, badly torn, shattered inside... Limbs in a survival enviroment can be lost easily and in several ways, ways that would probably lead to a fast and horrible death.
Armors only cover torso and main organs while your limbs are exposed.
Power Armor should cover limbs properly but simple armor won't save colonist limbs from doom.
In the proper hands, maybe. Your typical colonist or raider with 4 in shooting/melee really should not be hacking or shooting every single limb off a target/victim. Especially not shooting. No gun in Rimworld has the power to take limbs off in it's implied real world equivalents. Nor bow, nor sword that Fred used his Minecraftian powers to construct out of some unrefined metal on a generic worktable.
Quote from: M on March 17, 2015, 07:21:38 AM
Limbs removal is a myth for you... But it should not be.
Displaced fracture, comminuted fracture, open fracture, all those kind of bone fractures are very difficult to recover and need a proper hospital to heal completely.
Bones can shatter or fracture in a way you cannot fix or properly fix, making you lose the limb instantly.
Nerves can be cut off inside, ligaments cut off badly or totally, bone marrow could make you die.
Arrows can cause some of those injuries ad even instant death shot from a longbow, even a simple bow, even medieval ones. Mid-Large Melee weapons (knives and shivs maybe for fingers/hands) would also make you lose a limb easily in the proper hands.
Crushed shapeless, cut off completely, cut badly inside, badly torn, shattered inside... Limbs in a survival enviroment can be lost easily and in several ways, ways that would probably lead to a fast and horrible death.
Armors only cover torso and main organs while your limbs are exposed.
Power Armor should cover limbs properly but simple armor won't save colonist limbs from doom.
I understand all of that, the problem right now is that instead of the limb needing amputation, it simply falls off. Even if someone loses most of their arm to that kind of damage, they will be better off with a stub than nothing at all.
That's why I'm suggesting that when the ''hp'' of a limb (and maybe some organs too) reaches zero, instead of simply being removed it should be heavily scarred and be much more susceptible to infection (perhaps infected immediately?). Right now I rarely get the chance to amputate limbs almost never use ''donated'' organs, I would love to see having more use for both.
Guys, even a kid with totally no fighting or even "aggressivity" experience could hurt badly someone's limb, by breaking it with a rage kick, by cutting it randomly... I know it sounds crazy but it's reality.
I agree with Cazakatari about limbs that just fall off when reach 0hp instead of having a chance of being badly hurt forever or in need of an amputation. I think this is beacause the game is still in development and there are other trizzillion of stuff to add/improve, plus Tynan is keeping stuff "simple" to not make the game too tedious.
I disagreed the "a bow cannot make you lose a limb" part, even a random rock picked form ground could make you lose a limb with one hit, or kill you... There are quintrillion variables: weapon type, weapon form, where, how, strenght, armor covering the point being hit etc. etc. etc.
I would agree about a better "damage range" for weapons based on more variables (that's already in the game, but maybe it could be improved).
I would agree about some sort of parry/evasion chance based on colonist melee when fighting in melee combat.
Hello,
Modern remakes aside, medieval bows and crossbows had an average bolt/arrow speed of 135 feet per second. Most crossbows bolts traveled marginally faster than arrows, but not enough to make a difference in just that regard.
What mattered really was how close they were, and the point on the arrow/bolt. Regardless, there was no blowing off of anything except maybe a finger or toe...But hitting those are more likely accidents, since I'd much rather try to kill you with the fast moving pointy stick of death than maim you.
Neither bows nor crossbows were particularly efficient and poking through a knight's plate armor at distances where you actually had to adjust for arc, movement of target, and wind speed. Basically a crossbow was a pike with long reach. You'd have a bunch of guys with them and when the knights got close enough, they'd let bolts lose. This is versus the tactic with bow where they sent volleys of arrows at really long distances; arrows are much more effective at longer distances than crossbows in regards to getting your arrow in the general vacinity of your target (not talking robin hood crazy shots, so don't lynch me).
Even early firearms were countered by better armor smithing, proof of this is in pieces of armor and recorded accounts of smiths firing on newly pieces of forged armor to prove they could withstand a shot from point blank range. Eventually, the armor just became to expensive and ungainly to use.
So... I'd love to see more intricate ballistics. Firing modes. Penetration (vs different materials). Range. Damage. Less chance for someone to continue firing after a arrow has successfully penetrated their armor and is sticking out of their leg. Of course, certain backgrounds/traits could make incompacitation less likely (No way Rambo would drop after catching an arrow to a shoulder!).
Cheers,
Michael
Sources: W.F. Paterson and Stephen V. Grancsay. Check out their written work. It is facinating.