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I'm thinking of merging these two work types.

Pros: One less column to manage in the work overview.

Cons: You can no longer set these to separate priorities, or set them on/off differently for one pawn.

What do y'all think?

Since repairing seems to take such little time, I don't think merging them would be a bad idea. Specifically, I don't see repairing causing much of a bottleneck over more important construction.

Do you plan to add more jobs?

If so, I think construction and repair could be merged without any real gameplay issues, as long as the game explains that construction also means repairing damaged structures.

If not, I don't see any particular need to shorten the work overview list.

The only reason I could see not to would be that, since repairing takes so little time (compared to construction), we're able to allow less-essential pawns to repair without wasting the time of someone who is good at constructing AND something else.

Beyond that, I think it'd make sense for them to be together.

It depends on how you would set the relative priorities, I normally set repair higher than build partly because its quicker, but also because it could be a really important building that needs repairing and given that repairing is much much cheaper than rebuilding it is likewise much more important.

While I set my builders as repairers, I often have non-builders also set to repairers. So overall I am not so keen to merge them unless you are planning on adding interesting new job types.

Needs a button to forbid colonists going into hot zones then, when raiders attack you get damaged walls and everyone rushes to fix it, dying unless drafted or repair prohibited.

In fact some survival instinct for colonists would go a long way, they just don't care about the dozen pirates surrounding them.

Quote from: REMworlder on March 11, 2015, 04:35:20 PM
Since repairing seems to take such little time, I don't think merging them would be a bad idea. Specifically, I don't see repairing causing much of a bottleneck over more important construction.

Wait until you REALLY REALLY want to build a broken power circuit during a siege. Your colonist will start polishing that slate wall, or repair a turret that is not powered. You can't order a drafted colonist to repair, you'd be at mercy of the AI. Or you want to build another line of defences and cover quickly, perhaps paved floors in anticipation of inferno cannons. No, they'd rather repair that wall sprayed with a minigun.

Out of combat it won't matter, but in combat it will make you pull your hair out.


You know what could be merged ? Watering pot plants could count as "cleaning". When there's a harvest, I hate seeing my farmers make a tour around the colony. Besides, both cleaning and growing pot plants is about the same thing, pleasant environment. I may have an old colonist who can't move very quickly, he wouldn't be a good fit for sowing the fields, but he'd do fine cleaning and taking care of pot plants.

Merge the skills yes. Just make the building jobs a higher priority to repair unless a specific repair job is given to a pawn. Problem solved.

The cases where I REALLY need that repair done right now are rare for me, so like others have said, as long as constructing takes priority I'm cool with it

edit:  I've changed my mind, I'd rather keep the control.  Others have mentioned making sub-categories for each job to simultaneously reduce UI clutter but expand control, Build/repair would be a good example for this.

for cupla days now I've had this kind of idea about if you could merge related skills under the
main skill (in like a popup window) that you could micromanage if you want to

something like this? if what I'm after is clear enough ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/G4aToPo.png)

because for those who really, really want to micro every step of the way for their minions
you'get the pros of saving space *and* get rid of the cons

But I do not know how easy/hard/simple/complex that is to pull off?

Edit: OH and yes! I am for bundling things up! but I also dislike losing any options
Edit: You could possibly bundle up things like plant cutting/planting
and and then even branch out the crafting skill more
*Gleamy hopeful eyes*

I could see it working if repairing was an unlisted priority over construction. So if a pawn is standing near a blueprint and a damaged building with the construction priority set to 1, they would repair first then build.

I'd say yes. Just so long as we have context-sensitive commands when we right-click something.

As was mentioned before, I'd like to be able to force repair/construction when it's needed.

Or even better, you can implement the new skill lock system, so we don't have our best builders doing pleb work instead of building.

I vote nay. Aside from already voiced concerns, having repair and construction separate is really useful for training-up those colonists who have a talent for building, but a low skill - they do repair work, -without- clogging up construction jobs that can be done faster by already-skilled colonists. It's their apprenticeship, as it were.

Quote from: TheSilencedScream on March 11, 2015, 04:41:47 PM
The only reason I could see not to would be that, since repairing takes so little time (compared to construction), we're able to allow less-essential pawns to repair without wasting the time of someone who is good at constructing AND something else.

Beyond that, I think it'd make sense for them to be together.

The fast time it takes to repair is, to me, the reason they *could* be merged since it's not that huge of a burden for my builders to do the same job. My only concern is how to prioritize repairing over building in time of siege. I don't want to have to cancel all upcoming queued building jobs because they do that and disregard badly needed electrical repairs instead.

So after careful thought, my answer is no, do not merge them. I want to be able to prioritize them separately depending on the situation my colonists are in.

While I prefer having choice...I usually use both at the same time anyway.
IMO there are times when I don't want repairs but do want construction. Usually when making traps though.

If there was a forbid repair option then I'd say yes merge.

The less petty job types clogging up screen space the better. As long as there's a right click option to prioritize the repair of a specific item I don't really see any issues.

I don't multitask during red events, so all non-drafted builders wouldn't have anything to do but repair with my playstyle anyway.

...this makes me a little afraid that construction (a high-volume, long-term task) would always be prioritized ahead of repairing (a low volume, short-term task). I generally have it the other way around on my skilled constructors, so as to avoid gradual damage and eventual destruction of my buildings... but I also have construction high and repair low with some of my unskilled workers, so that they'll assist in hauling materials. I like this system the way it is... if anything, I'd request a reversal of their positions in the priority queue.

I always use manual priorities and I don't think I ever really keep construction and repairing at the same level. I do a lot of sandbag spamming to slow down raiders. There is a literal shit load of repairing to do after every battle later on in games. It is imperative that it is all done quickly before another fight, less my already broken defense are completely broken down exposing flaws and weaknesses.

From a developers perspective, what is the point in doing this? It's taking away player control to some extent and I just don't see how it can be a problem for you to keep the two separate? I'm actually really surprised to see that no one is objecting to this. I got behind the kickstarter before the first wave of alpha's went out. I've played A LOT. I don't normally like to participate in forums but this is a hot topic big deal for me. Especially when being proposed by the game dev!!! What is so hard for people to just set both construction and repair to the same priority level if that is what they want? If I want priority level 1 repairs and priority level 'whenever the hell I get to it' construction... well why not? :)

This thread is a wake-up call to me that my vision for this game might not really be lining up with most people on the forums. I've been meaning to do an in-depth analysis and write-up of sorts on my opinions and ideas of the game for a long while, and I think this might be a good motivator for me. I'm a terrible procrastinator unfortunately lmao.

didn't you split the construction/Repair skills ages ago? (Like A2/3?)
My vote's no,
It was real annoying back then not being able to differentiate between repairs and construction, as the colonists would seemingly take preference to building over repairing battle damage. (But I suppose some of the buildings randomly took damage then and there was no manual preference)

Edit ;
248 - November 1
● -Split repair from construction

I've literally never considered having Construction and Repair on different priorities - Construction naturally takes precedence due to its location which is fine by me.


I never assign large construction orders unless the manpower is available to do the job almost immediately, and *all* my colonists always have construction set at 4 with the exception of a few high-skill who will have it set to 1.
The end result is that I've never *ever* had any problems across probably more than a hundred colonies.

Having Repair/Construction melded would just save me some interface time.

Unless you're one of those crazy people who leaves colonists undrafted during combat and is worried about errant colonists repairing during firefights I don't see a problem.

I vote no. I always have 1 colonist set to build 1 repair 2, and a 2nd colonist set to repair 1.

I think it'd be a good idea.

Further, to help clean things up a bit, I think that Growing and Cutting should be combined as well.

Quote from: geredis on March 11, 2015, 09:58:46 PM
I think that Growing and Cutting should be combined as well.

I must agree with this point. Cutting seems to be become a near-useless category midgame

As seems to be the consensus, I see no problem with this. I generally set these to the same or similar priority on my colonists, and never have anyone set to do just one, so for me personally I don't see any harm in it. It would be nice to have one less thing to micromanage in the manual priorities.

If this change is to be made in isolation I vote no. My concern being that fewer options for setting automation of work priorities will result in more micro-management of colonists.

If the future allows for another method of allocating priorities within the main work groups my opinion may be different. As it stands the pro doesn't offer a particularly compelling argument compared to the con.

I say keep them separate - I don't think I ever set repair and construction to the same priority -  repair being the highest priority on less skilled builders, and maybe a few other pawns who have some spare time now any then, and construction one my skilled builders. This way my structures get built AND repaired at the same time.

Also In response to the growing and cutting merg - HELL NO! Just about every colonist that I have is set to have cutting as priority number one. If I need lots of wood for a new project, or to get some trees down so that a new building can go up quick, its a god send to be able to have everyone go out and rip the trees down in seconds.

NO WAY! I don't know how so many people think this is a good idea!!! The way i play, i have my best builders be REPAIR ONLY.  During a siege i lock them in my killbox and undraft them so they will run around and fix the walls and turrets - and it's the only thing that holds my colony together!  Last thing i want them to do is run off to go build a potted plant while the SHTF...

No, don't merge things. It's already bad enough that "Crafting" is an indifferentiable blob where there is no way to prioritize or restrict tasks. Turning more things into blobs just renders the system ever more useless for actually managing anything.

I'd say yes, as long as there's an in-game way of denoting which colonist(s) are dedicated repairers. For example, adding a Repair Tool Belt. What that will do is make Repairing a higher priority than Constructing, for that particular colonist. Sound good? :)

Similarly, if you wanted to merge Growing and Cutting, you could have secateurs or an axe (Gimli: AND MY AXE) to make a colonist want to do plant or tree cutting before harvesting/sowing.

Quote from: Ayylemao on March 11, 2015, 04:58:22 PM
Needs a button to forbid colonists going into hot zones then, when raiders attack you get damaged walls and everyone rushes to fix it, dying unless drafted or repair prohibited.

In fact some survival instinct for colonists would go a long way, they just don't care about the dozen pirates surrounding them.

Forbidden zones would make merging these 2 jobs much more feasible.

But consider this. A slow-moving colonist with a peg leg etc would make a fine repair man. Damage tends to be clustered in few areas. But construction involves a lot of going back and forth, fetching materials. It's similar with cutting trees. You don't need to move very fast, because you spend a lot of time in a single spot. Sowing or harvesting plants is movement-intensive.

I would like to see the options Shinzy showed, especially with the manual priorities.

Usually I have more people on repairing than on constructing, as repairing should be done quickly to bring my defences back in shape. If they are not split up, I would have to micromanage their priorities every time I take a hit. So I wouldn't like losing the option.

Options like that could also be done for growing/planting, cooking/butchering, healing/operating/treating deseases, so it would allow for training a cook or a doctor.

Something needs to be done to the overview screen. Im not sure what and i understand the want to noy have like DFS but its only gonna get worse. I say bite the bullet and come up with a better UI than a checkbox only grid.

Quote from: Shinzy on March 11, 2015, 05:53:58 PM
-snip-

This just gives me flashbacks of playing X games, just endless menus nested within menus within menus... considering that series was notorious for its hilariously bad UI I sincerely hope Rimworld doesn't go down that route.

Quote from: NoImageAvailable on March 12, 2015, 05:20:35 AM

Quote from: Shinzy on March 11, 2015, 05:53:58 PM
-snip-

This just gives me flashbacks of playing X games, just endless menus nested within menus within menus... considering that series was notorious for its hilariously bad UI I sincerely hope Rimworld doesn't go down that route.

I sincerely doubt RimWorld will ever reach the level of complexity and micromanagement that the X games prior to X:R had.

I'm leaning towards merging them as well, I can't really remember having any colonists that are just one or the other. That said, an "advanced" mode or something for those who enjoy micromanaging might be nice.

Quote from: huyderman on March 12, 2015, 07:34:49 AM
I'm leaning towards merging them as well, I can't really remember having any colonists that are just one or the other. That said, an "advanced" mode or something for those who enjoy micromanaging might be nice.

It's quite the opposite - more sophisticated automation lets you to do away with micromanaging.

I think Crafting category could be split into more stuff. Things currently falling into crafting:
- smithing
- tailoring
- stonecutting
- smelting
- machining

Smithing and tailoring is creating new items for colonists to use. Stonecutting is making construction materials, just like smelting and machining. How about this split:
Crafting: smithing+tailoring
Processing/Recycling: stonecutting+smelting+machining

There are other similarities.
Smithing and tailoring benefit from skill level, and train Crafting skill. They often make things for sale. Smithing and tailoring is mostly sitting at the table and using tools.
Stonecutting, smelting, machining don't increase Crafting skill (in alpha9), and I think they don't benefit from it. These actions tend to involve a lot of fetching materials and hauling produce to a stockpile.

Quote from: b0rsuk on March 12, 2015, 09:19:23 AM

Quote from: huyderman on March 12, 2015, 07:34:49 AM
I'm leaning towards merging them as well, I can't really remember having any colonists that are just one or the other. That said, an "advanced" mode or something for those who enjoy micromanaging might be nice.

It's quite the opposite - more sophisticated automation lets you to do away with micromanaging.

I think Crafting category could be split into more stuff. Things currently falling into crafting:
- smithing
- tailoring
- stonecutting
- smelting
- machining

Smithing and tailoring is creating new items for colonists to use. Stonecutting is making construction materials, just like smelting and machining. How about this split:
Crafting: smithing+tailoring
Processing/Recycling: stonecutting+smelting+machining

There are other similarities.
Smithing and tailoring benefit from skill level, and train Crafting skill. They often make things for sale. Smithing and tailoring is mostly sitting at the table and using tools.
Stonecutting, smelting, machining don't increase Crafting skill (in alpha9), and I think they don't benefit from it. These actions tend to involve a lot of fetching materials and hauling produce to a stockpile.

this a thousand times

I'm intrigued by the calls to split out or diversify more activities.  It seems to me that if Tynan goes that route, he should transpose the Overview tab, with colonists on the columns and activities on the rows (that would also allow an incorporation of the EdB Interface, with each colonist represented graphically).

This would allow the activities to be grouped and clustered.  You could have Expand/Collapse buttons on functions like "Crafting" or "Agriculture" or "Emergency" or "Facilities," with subgroups like those described above.  Changing settings at the top level (with the groups collapsed) would change the priorities for all activities within the group.

It could turn into a nightmare as the game gets more complex, but would allow for some real fine tuning and automation.

Are people really feeling overwhelmed by the overview screen? Just turn off manual priorities if it is such a chore. Why take away functionality for those of us who are not lazy? No offense mean't to anyone here but if this is giving you a headache got forbid you ever have to work with Excel or a Spreadsheet of any kind in your lifetime..... The very first thing I do in a game is set manual priorities for my starting three with game paused. Every single colonist I get is specialized by priority levels. This seems to be the most productive way to manage my colonists I have found. Please don't remove this fine level control.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. As soon as the alpha is published merging these two activities I can practically guarantee someone would re-split them in a mod. Unless of course it is hard-coded in such a way that it can't be modded. Then I would be a little ticked. ;)

Quote from: Arsonik on March 12, 2015, 11:25:07 AM
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter. As soon as the alpha is published merging these two activities I can practically guarantee someone would re-split them in a mod. Unless of course it is hard-coded in such a way that it can't be modded. Then I would be a little ticked. ;)

Wastelander added a new work type with his Mending mod, so adding back a removed work type should be possible.

I vote, I see the result are 50-50.

(>__<)
I guess it won't help Tynan

Edit : (after reading the thread)
Myself I voted yes because I have no problem with it and work with only a dozen of colonist, plus if I have to rebuild while thing are still damaged I usually give a direct order.
But it could bother players with many colonists and installation, and now I think I should have voted no.

Do we really need as few task as possible ? Myself I do not change Colonists orders very often (it's the whole idea) and if I do it isn't hard to do. As long as the task are distinct enough it should be enough (but I guess it's the whole question)

Quote from: Kegereneku on March 12, 2015, 01:05:09 PM
I vote, I see the result are 50-50.

(>__<)
I guess it won't help Tynan

Quick! tip the scales to way or another! lest we risk Tynan going all hamlet
you all know where that leads!

well, all of you who have read your shakespeare!
I certainly haven't so I have been lectured about all that holding skull thing

(http://i.imgur.com/PP9aExJ.png)

It's interesting to me that people are so divided, it's mostly not about the construction/repair debate it's mostly about the " Do you want a more complex interface " argument.


For me personally coming from Gnomoria it's really nice to have a colony management game where I can just sit down and play a new game without spending an hour setting up all of the professions required to play even 3 minutes of Gnomoria.

It's a combination of game difficulty, complexity, and interface complexity but it all adds up to a game that I don't have to keep footnotes to play.
For me Gnomoria for all its complexity has become very formulaic, I know exactly which professions I need to create, exactly what their priorities are, exactly when I need to create new professions ect.

As far as I'm concerned both games have sufficiently complex interfaces given the level of control and optimization required to play them.
Gnomoria has a zillion speciality jobs that you *really* need competent gnomes performing so it pays off significantly to specialise, and the game allows you to do so very accurately.
Rimworld has only a handful of true speciality jobs ( Mostly Crafting/Art honestly ) and -for the most part- allows you to prioritize accordingly, crafting is a bit of a mess at the moment but a player assigned bench priority system would probably fix that, maybe in addition to the skill lock system that's been modded in.

It wouldn't make a big impact on me if they were merged, but I'm leaning toward leaving them separate. Repairing is much more important than building when you have valuable already-constructed buildings at stake. Since I use manual priorities, swapping the two temporarily isn't a problem. Also, as others mentioned, repairing is a good way to increase the construction skills of a colonist with little skill points in that area, as well as a good job for slow colonists.

Although it's kinda nice keeping them separate as well, I think plant cutting and growing would be better off merged, if anything were to be merged. There are only rare points at which I wish to emphasize cutting over growing, and while during those times the distinction is useful, it tends to happen before I have a massive farm- and even if I do, by then I tend to have enough colonists to keep it from becoming a problem if I temp boost everyone's growing priority.

I would actually like to see crafting split (as someone before me mentioned) into crafting and processing. Crafting could be smithing and tailoring, and processing could be stonecutting, smelting, and machining. There's a big difference between processing raw goods and producing advanced goods, and I definitely want to keep my high-crafting colonists working on smithing or tailoring most of the time.

Allowing cleaners to water plants, and allowing them to haul objects within the home zone would be nice as well, since that's all part of making the colony look nice. (Hunters and constructors already get around the "can't haul" trait while constructing or hunting, so I don't see why that couldn't be allowed here as well.)

Quote from: Boboid on March 12, 2015, 01:57:58 PM
It's interesting to me that people are so divided, it's mostly not about the construction/repair debate it's mostly about the " Do you want a more complex interface " argument.


For me personally coming from Gnomoria it's really nice to have a colony management game where I can just sit down and play a new game without spending an hour setting up all of the professions required to play even 3 minutes of Gnomoria.

It's a combination of game difficulty, complexity, and interface complexity but it all adds up to a game that I don't have to keep footnotes to play.
For me Gnomoria for all its complexity has become very formulaic, I know exactly which professions I need to create, exactly what their priorities are, exactly when I need to create new professions ect.

As far as I'm concerned both games have sufficiently complex interfaces given the level of control and optimization required to play them.
Gnomoria has a zillion speciality jobs that you *really* need competent gnomes performing so it pays off significantly to specialise, and the game allows you to do so very accurately.
Rimworld has only a handful of true speciality jobs ( Mostly Crafting/Art honestly ) and -for the most part- allows you to prioritize accordingly, crafting is a bit of a mess at the moment but a player assigned bench priority system would probably fix that, maybe in addition to the skill lock system that's been modded in.

Nice reflection / perspective from Gnomoria. I just started playing it and wow... they said it was Dwarf Fortress "Lite" so apparently I am a very lite-ended gamer in the micromanagement department. This brings up a very good question to Tynan though ... and it might help him decide whether or not to leave many of these jobs separate and thus more micromanagement potential, or to merge them and streamline things a bit:

Are you going for a Gnomoria or big brother DF game overall? If so, keep them separated and allow the player many layers of complex management. Ignore the comments from those who say it makes things too 'tedious' because obviously they (like me) have no idea just how tedious a game can actually make management for you. RimWorld is very easy compared to the true micromanaging games. I had no idea until I thought I'd casually pick up Gnomoria as a way to train myself to handle something like Dwarf Fortress. Obviously I was wrong. ;) DF wasn't meant for mere human brains on my level. :P

I would vote no...

The only time repair is really vital for me is right after a raid, when my front gate / killbox is all messed up. I use the manual priority setting and I like to have a few colonists who have repair as their highest priority labor. Typically there's nothing to repair, but right after a raid they're quick about getting everything back into working order.

AYE!

If you do it, you might as well merge cutting/growing as well (aren't they basically two forms of harvesting anyway?).

One thing I like over DF in this game is the simplicity in jobs. In Dwarf Therapist, I have to handle, what is it - 30 jobs? It's ridiculous and needless micro. I think repair (and cutting) are two further jobs that could be fairly painlessly be merged.

But we need something in return for our willing obedience to your simplifying dictates:
A way to suspend constructions.

Cutting trees is more like mining than growing. You go into a place and spend a lot of time there. Similarities don't end there. Cutting trees and mining are done to clear an area for construction. They are also used to harvest resources. Someone who cuts trees or mines doesn't need to move very fast, if there's a hauler nearby. But slow speed is a significant hindrance for a planter.

on the note of merging jobs, i wouldnt mind seeing something that allows colonists to clean as they go. they dont have to be good at it, but something would be helpful(for instance, you have to be a pretty terrible person to just walk past a patch of puke and not do anything about it)

I like the idea of merging, but the consequences are probably not worth the saved screen space or clicks.

I always set my good constructors to the same levels and let everyone repair.

However, if they are combined and repairs don't take priority, you could have a problem trying to get repairs done if you are building a gigantic expansion to your base.

Another way to solve this, though, would be to allow for pausing constructions without having to cancel them and put all the blueprints down again. There is already a need for this even without merging them.

Quote from: b0rsuk on March 12, 2015, 06:12:02 PM
Cutting trees is more like mining than growing. You go into a place and spend a lot of time there. Similarities don't end there. Cutting trees and mining are done to clear an area for construction. They are also used to harvest resources. Someone who cuts trees or mines doesn't need to move very fast, if there's a hauler nearby. But slow speed is a significant hindrance for a planter.

You have convinced me. Also they both use their arms similarly, they're almost the same motion.

Why not go a step further? And merge Growing with plant cutting [potentially animal husbandry] (Farming)? Merge crafting with art (crafts)?

A player could always have the choice to expand on the Construction (plants or crafts) section;
- Building
- Repairing
And set those priorities individually.
Crafts could be, at player discretion be expanded to do individual crafts such as arts or tailoring or weapon crafting, solving issues about who does what with generalized (crafting) jobs.

Edit: I voted 'no'. Because I don't think the described merge would solve anything gameplay wise.

Quote from: Coenmcj on March 11, 2015, 10:01:22 PM

Quote from: geredis on March 11, 2015, 09:58:46 PM
I think that Growing and Cutting should be combined as well.

I must agree with this point. Cutting seems to be become a near-useless category midgame

One is skilled labor, one is dumb labor. Haulers/cleaners/fighters, colonists with trait limitations, etc. can still be doing something valuable with cutting as a separate job. Merge the two and now you're stuck with high-value labor (growing) competing with a same-category sub-task. Make the growing sub-task higher priority by default, you say? Congratulations, now the low-skill but often still important job clearing territory and/or harvesting wood isn't getting done at all because a bunch of agriculturally retarded laborers who could have made themselves useful elsewhere are very slowly planting potatoes.

Quote from: b0rsuk on March 12, 2015, 09:19:23 AM

Quote from: huyderman on March 12, 2015, 07:34:49 AM
-snip-

It's quite the opposite - more sophisticated automation lets you to do away with micromanaging.

I think Crafting category could be split into more stuff. Things currently falling into crafting:
- smithing
- tailoring
- stonecutting
- smelting
- machining

Smithing and tailoring is creating new items for colonists to use. Stonecutting is making construction materials, just like smelting and machining. How about this split:
Crafting: smithing+tailoring
Processing/Recycling: stonecutting+smelting+machining

There are other similarities.
Smithing and tailoring benefit from skill level, and train Crafting skill. They often make things for sale. Smithing and tailoring is mostly sitting at the table and using tools.
Stonecutting, smelting, machining don't increase Crafting skill (in alpha9), and I think they don't benefit from it. These actions tend to involve a lot of fetching materials and hauling produce to a stockpile.

I actually strongly support this point. It has been really bothering me that my craftspeople need to be micromanaged so that my massively skilled clothes-maker isn't sitting around smelting slag while some derp with 2 crafting on priority 4 is wasting my devilstrand on shoddy gear. A separation of these activities into distinct categories (or at very least a skill lock) would make crafting a much less frustrating microfest in the long term.

If we are afraid of creating too many tasks, maybe we could replace some by "Menial Task" that don't require skills, as described in character's background ?

Obviously Repair wouldn't be one (too complex), but "controlling" (as switching light) and "cutting" ? for now they sure do, we could even fit all that into "hauling" since its usually implied. (it kind of get on my nerve when someone "can't haul" for no apparent reason)

Cleaning could fit too, but for now I fear its too low priority to ever be done if you don't make it someone's priority.

I think the best way to go it what keeps getting mentioned - a collapsible priority system. Expand the priority system so that some of the more technical jobs (smithing, tailoring, machining) are jobs that can be given individual priority, give some of the other skills more jobs; social could have a leader job who goes around and talks to colonists or something, and then group all the job together under broad headings that can be prioritized.

This way there is a simple way of doing it. The priority list would be smaller then it is now - with jobs like 'Menial' covering hauling, plant cutting and cleaning, and 'Building' covering construction and repairs - but the player would then be able to expand these tabs and prioritize the individual jobs if they choose to.

There are times when somethings just wont work. Its OK to have a brain damaged colonist on repair duty - he slowly makes his rounds fixing walls or conducts - but it would take forever for him to build something going back and forth between the construction site and the stockpile

Quote from: Kegereneku on March 13, 2015, 05:02:58 AM
If we are afraid of creating too many tasks, maybe we could replace some by "Menial Task" that don't require skills, as described in character's background ?

Obviously Repair wouldn't be one (too complex), but "controlling" (as switching light) and "cutting" ? for now they sure do, we could even fit all that into "hauling" since its usually implied. (it kind of get on my nerve when someone "can't haul" for no apparent reason)

Cleaning could fit too, but for now I fear its too low priority to ever be done if you don't make it someone's priority.

That could be a possible solution: Maybe have the actual priority missions be (generally speaking) the same sort of traited job-restrictions that the pawns have as personalities?

So that we have

Menial Labour
Violence
Social
Intellectual Labour
Homemaking
Medical
<Something else>

And within those you then are able to fine-tune exactly which jobs they do within the jobs:

For instance, under each category you could have:

Violence - Hunting, Butchery, Guard Duty (Like Drafting, but zone-based and like a usual job)
Social - Talking, Wardening, Bringing Food to the Incapacitated
Medical - Bandaging, Surgery, Rescuing
Intellectual Work - Research, Crafting (Everything but Stonecutting), Art
Homemaking - Cooking, Cleaning
Menial Labour - Hauling, Construction, Repair, Stonecutting, Mining

And then you rank the categories to decide what is most important, followed by ranking the individual jobs within the categories.  Sure, I suppose it's much, much, more micro-intensive, but using a mix of passion, stat numbers, and an innate importance for each job (say, cooking being more important than cleaning in Homemaking, as a rule, and Crafting over Art in Intellectual Work, things like that, at a very basic, survival-type level) you can also create an automatic priority ladder as it were like the game already has for those that don't want to micro it.  And for those that do like it, by having so many more levels of micro, you can ensure your people do EXACTLY what you want.  Those that want a mid-level amount which is closer to what already exists, you can simply re-order/prioritize the lists much as you already do in the Job Overview with those overarching categories.

One hic, I see with your suggestion is that cooking ask for butchering ability, either we make butchering a subs-task of both or we risk getting background that keep a "cook" from butchering meat.
Though... I can imagine a Lord who accept doing the noble art of cooking but refuse to soil himself with animal carcass.

So... maybe that's not a problem. In fact, using the very term used in the Background might make it more intuitive.

ASIDE, QUESTION FOR TYNAN : Someone just unearthed this topic (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=6012.msg60914#msg60914) where the very problem was discussed, did your code changed much since then ?

To everyone else : How often do you change the overview setting ?

Me ? Not much, I only tend to give direct order when I see a priority (and I expect them to carry out said order)
To my understand the idea of such AI-colonist was precisely to negate micro-management while having a living colony, so having many -simple- option might be easier than having rigid category of task.

After thinking about it some more and reading other feedback, I've changed my mind.  I'd rather have more control, because I remember situations where there was a particular colonist that I wanted to build but not repair.  Not often but it does happen

As others discussed I would like it very much if different jobs could be expanded into more specifics, that way it wouldn't be an information overload to new players, but also give more control to advanced players who like cutting down on the diaper changing micromanagement

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on March 13, 2015, 01:10:45 PM
I think the best way to go it what keeps getting mentioned - a collapsible priority system. Expand the priority system so that some of the more technical jobs (smithing, tailoring, machining) are jobs that can be given individual priority, give some of the other skills more jobs; social could have a leader job who goes around and talks to colonists or something, and then group all the job together under broad headings that can be prioritized...

I like something like this aswell. Sub-categories that collapse can clean up the ui, whilst making less button clicky-click.  ;D
As far as which I picked for the poll, I chose nay. I like the option to keep some colonists doing 'construction' without babysitting them too much.

Since initially voting and posting, I've played around with priorities a bit more and read the other opinions here, and I find myself thinking that merging these work types would be a mistake. There are a lot of more elegant (if more complex, difficult to implement) solutions to problems this might address being discussed here than a simple merge.

I VOTE 'HELL NO' as in every game I play I set most of my colonists with building atleast ONE level below repair, and all my colonists that CAN repair ARE set to repair 1( to fix all the damage as quickly as possible, the ONLY colonists that I set to build 1 ARE those with the passion for building (and I use the MANUAL settings not the blood sucking(automatic) ticks)

By the way, making doctors feed patients is a bad idea.

I want my operations and treatments done by the most skilled doctor I have. A botched treatment can mean a scar, a lost limb or death. On the other hand, I don't think feeding patients has any skill requirement, and I don't think it's affected by any skill. My doctor is a careful shooter, but got his leg chopped off early on, so he fights in base defence only now. He is a skilled researcher and has a burning passion for art.

Having this peg leg veteran run around and feed patients is a waste of his time, especially when two of my soldiers come back from fighting off siegers injured. I have to manually order him to treat both, while someone else is feeding them.

So I'm tempted to assign more doctors, to help with feeding patients. Then they go and botch treatments and operations, I have to manually drag them from hospitals.

Proposal: make feeding patients fall under Wardening. It won't be perfect either, but the worst that can happen is you recruit someone later.

I would stick with no, its fine when you got a small colony of up 10 colonists since many of them share jobs, but getting higher in colonist cout i think its more efficient to have more diffrent jobs for colonist to preform than sharing them.
Also i think it would mess up manual priorites play.
But then again you have us to guinea pig it out in next alpha even if its just for one alpha to test it :D

Quote from: b0rsuk on March 14, 2015, 08:10:40 AM
By the way, making doctors feed patients is a bad idea.

Definitely.

Quote from: DNK on March 14, 2015, 02:48:27 PM

Quote from: b0rsuk on March 14, 2015, 08:10:40 AM
By the way, making doctors feed patients is a bad idea.

Definitely.

If I can hold and eat food, why can't I haul or feed others?

Quote from: Tynan on March 11, 2015, 04:33:00 PM
I'm thinking of merging these two work types.

Pros: One less column to manage in the work overview.

Cons: You can no longer set these to separate priorities, or set them on/off differently for one pawn.

What do y'all think?

Instead (someone else suggested this first though but just boosting it up)

You should merge it but certain factors of a job should have separate priorities..

So let say..Plant cutting for example...or Crafting...

Crafting Clothes for winter should be able to have a separate higher priority then crafting gold plated statues...

Plant cutting trees should have a bigger priority then shrubs or grass etc...

Being able to manually set the tasks associated with a job's prority....so basically let us micromanage stuff more XD

Quote from: Vaperius on March 15, 2015, 02:06:14 AM
Crafting Clothes for winter should be able to have a separate higher priority then crafting gold plated statues...

Uhm, you do know those two are separate already. Crafting clothing is a crafting task and making the gold plated statues is an art job. In fact they even have entirely different skills attached to them.



Back to the topic. Repairing takes little time, and I don't see it becoming a problem if merged with the construction task. At least if one thing remains true, repairing keeps a higher priority than construction. This may be personal preference, but I always make sure via manual priorities that repairing is higher priority than construction.

my opinion on the OP would be no, dont merge.

However, i think the things that made you think about doing it are pretty valid. The priority cue is not the most natural feeling of ui elements and it probably doesnt have as much nuance as veteran players really want. on the flip side though, its probably a bit too complicated for someone just picking the game up. The problem probably stems from trying to be a jack of all trades and therefore mastering none. The difference between manual and auto though seems like a step in the right direction. Different priority menus for different strokes. Hell, even different kinds of priority menu's would be rad(i would love a clean as you go option personally). still, it seems to me its a big chunk of design work you would have to do, maybe not worth the time yet

I'm of two minds, yes I can see what the mere will do in benefits. But skimming through this thread one thing is clear:
People have different priorities on how they want the thing to be implemented, with some preferring repairs first others Build first.

I fall into the repairs first camp.

But on balance I think this is one of those ones were you can leave it separate, so people can opt in to the system they like, and thus I'll vote no.

Based on this I think I have to leave more work types separate and instead work on improving the overview interface to allow collapsing and expanding groups of work types (collapsed groups being manipulable as one).

And/or hiding work types that aren't 'discovered' yet. E.g. no need to show Smithing if you have no smithing equipment.

Quote from: Tynan on March 15, 2015, 02:32:09 PM
Based on this I think I have to leave more work types separate and instead work on improving the overview interface to allow collapsing and expanding groups of work types, collapsed groups being manipulable as one.

That sounds fantastic Tynan! ;D

Quote from: Tynan on March 15, 2015, 02:32:09 PM
Based on this I think I have to leave more work types separate and instead work on improving the overview interface to allow collapsing and expanding groups of work types (collapsed groups being manipulable as one).

And/or hiding work types that aren't 'discovered' yet. E.g. no need to show Smithing if you have no smithing equipment.

I agree, sounds like a good plan. That way those who want to merge jobs will have the option, while those who want to separate them out can do so with expanded view / choices. Choice is always the best route. :)

Quote from: Tynan on March 11, 2015, 04:33:00 PM
I'm thinking of merging these two work types.

Pros: One less column to manage in the work overview.

Cons: You can no longer set these to separate priorities, or set them on/off differently for one pawn.

What do y'all think?

Repairs and fires are automatically a top priority for my colonists always... long as they still fix stuff before building more Idc about merging them... unless that isn't possible... I have wondered if things dmged have a high risk... like damaged batteries in rain explode more often?

Tynan, man, you're amazing.

Not only do you pose a question to your users, you don't even flinch when the discussion veers wildly off-topic, and you even work to incorporate suggestions that would entail no small amount of overhaul to a core component of both game mechanics and user interface.

Rimworld has come so far since I started playing a year ago.  Thanks for your willingness to let your fans help shape the game.

Great poll, for me is no, since micromanaging stuff is a core part (in my opinion) of advanced colonies.
Tynan response is great :D

i like shinzy's idea of adding subcategories for work, where players can further customize the AI :

ie :

construction -> repair
doctoring -> patient
growing -> plant cutting
cooking -> butchering
crafting -> smithing, stonecutting, sewing, cremate, machining, smelting
etc..

or better yet, just create something similar to gnomoria's job assignment menu.
so much more easier to fully customize colonist AI.

I voted no.

I always prioritize repairs in all units to dont lose scructures and construction is only prioritized by units with "construction" skill.

Quote from: DarknessEyes on March 18, 2015, 12:56:04 PM
I voted no.

I always prioritize repairs in all units to dont lose scructures and construction is only prioritized by units with "construction" skill.

Oh yes. Doing stuff like that are meaningfull strategical ahoices in the game. I was with you voting no, even though I understand Tynan wanted to make room for other new work orders. Anyways, I don't mind more detailed models at all.

I voted "yes".

With the understanding that prioritizing work via the contextual menu will eventually be smarter.  I.E. not just do one phase of work on one cell than then leave.

What you mean is making the "colonist AI" smarter rather than needing us to micromanage, right ?

I would get behind that too, we aren't supposed to micro-manage, only macro-manage.
But the less lever you give the player to "correct" thing, the more likely I see a AI behave unexpectedly requiring direct order -> micro-management.
Whereas enough sub-task allow to avoid those on the long therm.

Rewording the overview (maybe to match 'Menial/intellectual/violent work' ?) seem to be necessary, but if made correctly a great number of task wouldn't pose problem as they aren't meant to be changed often (I never utilized manual priority setting).

Quote from: Tynan on March 15, 2015, 02:32:09 PM
And/or hiding work types that aren't 'discovered' yet. E.g. no need to show Smithing if you have no smithing equipment.

Does this mean an expansion of pre-gunpowder equipment?  Craftable steel armor etc  8)
It's only suitable I can turn my medieval noble into a King with medieval knights

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQV8mh_0EtK5qOxOOr_JbtfSGMt5_AG9WwRg85iX9Bet1DeVy21)

Quote from: Cazakatari on March 19, 2015, 07:43:02 PM

Quote from: Tynan on March 15, 2015, 02:32:09 PM
And/or hiding work types that aren't 'discovered' yet. E.g. no need to show Smithing if you have no smithing equipment.

Does this mean an expansion of pre-gunpowder equipment?  Craftable steel armor etc  8)
It's only suitable I can turn my medieval noble into a King with medieval knights

[im g]https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQV8mh_0EtK5qOxOOr_JbtfSGMt5_AG9WwRg85iX9Bet1DeVy21[/img]

The smithing table is used to craft melee weapons and one ranged weapon (pila).

Quick thing to add if options will be added or hidden by whether a player has a 'smithing table (example) or not.
I have one smithing (whatever) table and it gets destroyed/deconstructed somehow. Will that reset the priorities? Will they become open by research?

Just food for thought.

Quote from: deslona on March 20, 2015, 12:16:01 AM
Quick thing to add if options will be added or hidden by whether a player has a 'smithing table (example) or not.
I have one smithing (whatever) table and it gets destroyed/deconstructed somehow. Will that reset the priorities? Will they become open by research?

Just food for thought.

Think they're just hidden, like the dragon in that movie
or like the cat in the box quantum mechanics
it's both there and isn't dead and alive
like a falling tree in a forest where there's no-one listening
your priorities will both be and not, reset and set
*mindblow*

Absolutely not is my position. If I had my way, the priorities screen would have double the amount of items on it than it does now allowing total customization. I'd prefer development time be spent on scaling this screen so it can accommodate more entries. Comments were also made along the lines of allowing more customization if a player wants to. Options in simulation games are the key, and the ideal solution here would still allow for very granular control, but still be functional for those that don't want to dive so deep.

With respect to this particular issue, I always have the construction and repairing at different manual priorities based on the situation and skill levels etc. Repairing costs no resources, so in many cases I prioritize repairing higher for almost all colonists to protect my investment.

I think the necessity of lots of options on the priority screen could be alleviated somewhat if the player had more control over the order in which some of the tasks are carried out. Currently the only way to override the order is to manually assign colonists via right-clicking. This is fine for a job or two, but if I want to repair an entire wall, and fast, I'd have to keep my colonists from wandering off and building some unimportant structure on the other side of the base. Two ways to address this, which doesn't only apply to construction / repairing:

• There should be a way to forbid a construction or repair job. While not as elegant as the current system we have that has granularity between the two tasks, it would at least help the player have some control.
• There should be a drag-able box that prioritizes anything that it touches with respect to the kind of job it is. I think this option should be there regardless of this debate. If we had this functionality, I'd more amenable with combining the jobs on the priority list so long as I could flag that crucial wall for repair first. Same could be said of a crucial construction job. More details in the quote below (taken somewhat out of context). I will say, however, that the quote at the bottom of my posts is really the issue - more options up front actually reduce micromanagement down the road. If I spell out my intent, I don't need to be dragging boxes around objects at all.

Quote from: _alphaBeta_ on July 11, 2014, 08:38:01 AM
I'll suggest an idea from another indie game called Banished where the player has the ability to drag out a selection box that bumps everything that selection box touches to the top of the queue (actually it bumps it up one step every time you drag, but I wish it just went to the top of the queue).

Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 12:22:01 AM

Quote from: b0rsuk on March 12, 2015, 09:19:23 AM

Quote from: huyderman on March 12, 2015, 07:34:49 AM
-snip-

It's quite the opposite - more sophisticated automation lets you to do away with micromanaging.

I think Crafting category could be split into more stuff. Things currently falling into crafting:
- smithing
- tailoring
- stonecutting
- smelting
- machining

Smithing and tailoring is creating new items for colonists to use. Stonecutting is making construction materials, just like smelting and machining. How about this split:
Crafting: smithing+tailoring
Processing/Recycling: stonecutting+smelting+machining

There are other similarities.
Smithing and tailoring benefit from skill level, and train Crafting skill. They often make things for sale. Smithing and tailoring is mostly sitting at the table and using tools.
Stonecutting, smelting, machining don't increase Crafting skill (in alpha9), and I think they don't benefit from it. These actions tend to involve a lot of fetching materials and hauling produce to a stockpile.

I actually strongly support this point. It has been really bothering me that my craftspeople need to be micromanaged so that my massively skilled clothes-maker isn't sitting around smelting slag while some derp with 2 crafting on priority 4 is wasting my devilstrand on shoddy gear. A separation of these activities into distinct categories (or at very least a skill lock) would make crafting a much less frustrating microfest in the long term.

I agree with everything in these posts. Keeping my more advanced crafters away from the skill-less labor is a major annoyance to me. The "You can now set a minimum skill level on bills" (from the changelog) doesn't correct this issue, and setting a maximum level may lead to jobs not being done at all if the player isn't careful as the colonists become better at their jobs.

Quote from: Tynan on March 15, 2015, 02:32:09 PM
Based on this I think I have to leave more work types separate and instead work on improving the overview interface to allow collapsing and expanding groups of work types (collapsed groups being manipulable as one).

And/or hiding work types that aren't 'discovered' yet. E.g. no need to show Smithing if you have no smithing equipment.

YES!!!

I voted "yes" and also agree with the sub-category idea. 

My only issue with repair(and construction) is it is too simplistic.  I would prefer having different qualities of construction. Be it weaker walls to well-built solar panels that end up working better.  As things ages you can select things for constructors to "improve","repair",and/or "tinker" with.  Depending their skills things happen. 

I'm fairly new to the game and created a forum account in order to vote "No". Like others have mentioned, I like to prioritize Repair before Construction because it's free and frequently urgent.

I like the subcategory idea. I think as the number of job types grows, we'll also need more than four levels of priority (five if you count "disabled"). Arbitrary priorities ("type a number, any number") would obviously give the most flexibility.

I also think the job priorities overview screen is trying to show two somewhat different things:

(a) Which colonist is most likely to perform a job. Read down a column for this one. Subcategories and more prioritization levels make this easier to read and control. Sorting would also help.

(b) Which job a colonist is most likely to perform. Read across a row for this one. Subcategories and more prioritization levels, especially taken together, could make this vastly more difficult to read, even while providing more fine-grained control.

It would help to have a screen that would list an individual colonist's enabled jobs in order of priority, and preferably allow dragging instead of using numeric priority levels to rearrange them. It would be accessible either by clicking on a colonist's name in the overview screen or by selecting the colonist and clicking their "info" button (or something like that). This would reduce dependence on the numeric priority levels, and the overview screen would then be, as its name suggests, more of a global view and not the only or even necessarily the main way of setting job preferences.

Another idea that would reduce the use of priority levels is to allow the default ordering to be altered, say, by dragging and dropping the column headers in the overview. That way, I could set Repair to be globally higher priority than Construction and use the individual priority levels to reverse the order for maybe one colonist.

Either of those suggestions could make things crazy when subcategories are added, unless we're not allowed to interleave categories in a colonist's priority order, for example Repair > Butcher > Harvest > Cook > Build. Setting the priorities with numbers, while hard to read, offers greater flexibility on this point; visually, the jobs could always be grouped by category, while the numbers could cause their priority order to be interleaved.

A compromise would be to allow interleaving for individual colonists but not for the global default order. Then the colonist's jobs screen would show them ungrouped by category, or at least allow a specific job type to be moved out of its group, while the overview screen would always group the categories together, and show individual priorities numerically.