I remember shortly after the temperature system was implemented, I got this great idea that I would make an arctic colony (a fun challenge in and of itself) with the sadistic side benefit of watching those detestable mortar siege teams freeze to death.
I barely got the colony started when I realized: Everyone spawning on this map seems to spawn with a parka. All the raiders are smartly dressed and have nothing to fear from the cold. Worse, I can just put parkas on all my own colonists and now all temperature problems are solved, I don't even seem to need room heaters.
Has anyone else experienced this? I'm kind of disappointed, but off the top of my head I'm not sure how you'd implement cold weather gear that allows you to temporarily go outside and not die.
Wait until winter. When temperatures drop into the -30s and -40s, cloth parkas aren't really going to cut it for working outdoors. This is also going to pose major power drain issues for your food production.
Pirate sieges will eventually die out in winter, though with mortars being more accurate, they stand to do alot of damage you can't afford to play cleanup with.
Another issue is getting a proper world seed that has the actually challenging temperatures. It may actually be more challenging to have a more dynamic temperature than a constantly-cold temperate one (you want -50F and 40F rather than -10F and 20F, for instance).
Once you get parkas, it's actually still really easy to grow food outdoors with a few power things, solar lamps, and 1-2 heaters per grow area.
I have about 10-12 colonists and 1 outdoor-indoor grow zone of corn keeps everyone fed. I was running 2-3, but you simply fill your freezer. I made mine gigantic, then realized I could just run about one field of corn and 2 of devilstrand.
My next colony will probably be a re-re-re-re-roll of the world seed to get a really cold area.
The only problem I actually run into on my current one is even though the average temperature is about -10F almost all year round, I can lose my crops (mostly worried about devilstand) to a single solar flare. I have to actually burn fire pits during the power outage as the temp drops below the survival temps even with heaters at 80f for a buffer (hot with parkas on) even though it's only about 5 seconds before the power comes back on and those 5 seconds killed an entire field if 98% grown devilstrand... learned my lesson.
Yeah, I just run less incident trolling because I can't stand that stuff.
Quote from: Mathenaut on March 12, 2015, 10:33:53 PM
Pirate sieges will eventually die out in winter, though with mortars being more accurate, they stand to do alot of damage you can't afford to play cleanup with.
And that's why every colony of mine is deep under a mountain.
Something I noticed just now and thought I would ask - at night, do you guys sometimes see random large dips in room temperature in places that have plenty of heating?
Well temperature outside normally lowers during the night, therefore it may get colder in rooms if they're not completely temperature sealed. From my experience in freezing maps, (lowest I played was around -140 F Icesheets), building many 3x1 rooms before you reach your internal mountain base kept heat in fairly well. Does anyone know if man-made roofs block out temperature change?
I mostly play tundra maps and I've seen my fair share of naked siegers with kevlar helmets...
Quote from: MarvinKosh on March 12, 2015, 11:36:27 PM
Something I noticed just now and thought I would ask - at night, do you guys sometimes see random large dips in room temperature in places that have plenty of heating?
Yeah, I blame the higher night temperature and the fact that my solar panels go offline, meaning less power fed to heaters. In the dead of winter my rooms usually drop from 70-40 at night.
Also, base entrances take massive temperature dips whenever the doors open, probably the temp equalizer mechanics.
Quote from: Riph on March 12, 2015, 11:27:25 PM
Quote from: Mathenaut on March 12, 2015, 10:33:53 PM-snip-
And that's why every colony of mine is deep under a mountain.
I found myself doing this a lot as well, so I've challenged myself to build outside a little more, and man am I glad I did. I find the extra challenge nice, and I find that my colonies are coming out more attractive, as flooring is an actual issue (can't just smooth the stone for a nice +4).
As to the topic at hand, you really do have to hunt for the truly extreme temperature ranges. It's a lot of fun once you've found one, though. I still haven't managed to adapt a successful strategy for non-mountain colonies in the frigid maps.
Quote from: Riph on March 12, 2015, 11:27:25 PMAnd that's why every colony of mine is deep under a mountain.
Amen. Dwarflords, represent!
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 12:15:58 AM
I found myself doing this a lot as well, so I've challenged myself to build outside a little more, and man am I glad I did.
I've built things on the surface temporarily, but they've all been destroyed, leaving only a burned out stone hulk, as constructed roofs provide zero defense whatsoever. The mortars aren't perfectly accurate at hitting any specific structure, but once they hit it, it's gone.
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 12:15:58 AMI find the extra challenge nice, and I find that my colonies are coming out more attractive, as flooring is an actual issue (can't just smooth the stone for a nice +4).
Are we talking about mechanically attractive, or subjectively attractive to the user? Gameplaywise, in practice, the flooring has little to no meaningful influence, and you're going to spam statues, which are what actually boosts the value high enough for colonists to notice. The rest will be covered in stockpiles of hoarded stuff, which tends colonists tend to consider ugly anyway, but not quite ugly enough for them to whine about it.
As for how it looks, I really can't see the aesthetic appeal of not being surrounded in smooth gray stone. The surface is filled with all these garish and nasty colors, most of which are constantly on fire from the sieges. I don't find this beautiful at all, and find it actually quite unpleasant. But I've always favored a more dwarven aesthetic in real life.
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 12:15:58 AMAs to the topic at hand, you really do have to hunt for the truly extreme temperature ranges. It's a lot of fun once you've found one, though. I still haven't managed to adapt a successful strategy for non-mountain colonies in the frigid maps.
Well, if anything, frigid maps are easier and more survivable than non-frigid maps. Heaters consume half the power of coolers, parkas laugh at all but the most extreme cold, and stuff that you kill stays frozen. It's all very convenient...just as in real life, really. You can always generate heat by setting something on fire, but there's no way to make things not hot without making something else even hotter.
Quote from: lusername link=topic=11430.msg114419#msg114419-sniptastical!-
Oh, subjectively more attractive, for sure. The most gameplay attractive flooring in the game is only available in mountain bases, and therefore hard to resist. When I build on the surface, I actually use things like wood and carpets! For reasons!
As for sieges, on standard sized maps at least, they rarely finish building a mortar before I eliminate them, so they don't do much harm. I find this more fun than just ignoring them until they starve to death like I do in mountains lol.
I must agree with you on the advantages of frigid maps, though with poor materials or crafting skills, awful quality cloth parkas don't do a whole lot of good in -40f. Deserts are definitely worse, though. Getting a ventilation system together for those coolers is a real pain in vanilla, and the central heating/cooling type mods just seem too easy. All advantages and no downsides.
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 02:05:34 AM
As for sieges, on standard sized maps at least, they rarely finish building a mortar before I eliminate them, so they don't do much harm. I find this more fun than just ignoring them until they starve to death like I do in mountains lol.
This attitude I see all over and it is such a mystery to me.
When the enemy brings a mortar siege on me, they have more M-24 troopers guarding the approach to their site than I have colonists in total. And when I do decide to get into a sniper duel, it requires ~5 quickloads before my sniper (skill 12, cyber eyes, cyber arms) manages to land a shot on their sniper (skill 3, bad back) before getting instantly headshotted.
:o
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 02:05:34 AM
Oh, subjectively more attractive, for sure. The most gameplay attractive flooring in the game is only available in mountain bases, and therefore hard to resist. When I build on the surface, I actually use things like wood and carpets! For reasons!
I wasn't aware carpets were pretty at all, from a gameplay standpoint, and in real life, they're downright disgusting. If I were going to pave over the surface according to my own aesthetic tastes, I would be using concrete, because it's the best-looking floor of the bunch, to me. For some reason colonists lack appreciation for its lovely bare grayness, though. Only place where colonist tastes and my own tastes intersect is in our appreciation for smooth, featureless stone.
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 02:05:34 AMAs for sieges, on standard sized maps at least, they rarely finish building a mortar before I eliminate them, so they don't do much harm. I find this more fun than just ignoring them until they starve to death like I do in mountains lol.
On larger maps, it's physically impossible to get out there even if you were to march immediately upon arrival in time to stop them from bombarding your base, and out there is way, way out there.
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 02:05:34 AMI must agree with you on the advantages of frigid maps, though with poor materials or crafting skills, awful quality cloth parkas don't do a whole lot of good in -40f.
It's okay, the raiders will bring you more free ones, and they won't all be awful. I've never HAD to craft a parka or any other article of clothing in any game I've played. The only reason I have any tailoring facilities at all is for the amusement of giving my colonists uniforms of human skin.
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 02:05:34 AMDeserts are definitely worse, though. Getting a ventilation system together for those coolers is a real pain in vanilla, and the central heating/cooling type mods just seem too easy. All advantages and no downsides.
I actually don't find that to be the biggest problem, since the same techniques used to prevent cabin fever in a dwarven fortress are also the same ones used for ventilation. Deserts are extremely easy to defend in comparison, though: The roasting heat rapidly slays any raiders (and visitors) as you can't generate "cold", whereas the parka-clad marauders practically never succumb to the temperature.
Quote from: Riph on March 13, 2015, 02:19:59 AM
This attitude I see all over and it is such a mystery to me.
When the enemy brings a mortar siege on me, they have more M-24 troopers guarding the approach to their site than I have colonists in total.
From the IRC, my impression of this is that the people who claim they can just sally forth and shoot them are either playing with mods that enable easy recovery in some way, give far better offensive power, or are playing on Easy. Because what you describe definitely matches MY experiences. To take out siege groups in my game, given that there's about 30 or 40 of them and maybe 5-10 of me, an infinite supply of them and no supply of me, generally involves either artillery duelling them from my mountain fortress, or hiding under the mountain until they pass out from exhaustion and then cutting their throats one by one.
Quote from: lusername on March 13, 2015, 02:29:46 AM
Quote from: Riph on March 13, 2015, 02:19:59 AM
This attitude I see all over and it is such a mystery to me.
When the enemy brings a mortar siege on me, they have more M-24 troopers guarding the approach to their site than I have colonists in total.
From the IRC, my impression of this is that the people who claim they can just sally forth and shoot them are either playing with mods that enable easy recovery in some way, give far better offensive power, or are playing on Easy. Because what you describe definitely matches MY experiences. To take out siege groups in my game, given that there's about 30 or 40 of them and maybe 5-10 of me, an infinite supply of them and no supply of me, generally involves either artillery duelling them from my mountain fortress, or hiding under the mountain until they pass out from exhaustion and then cutting their throats one by one.
I tend to forget that I play on a median difficulty. Cassandra Challenge is a fairly gentle mistress, and that's about as tough as my skill level allows for at the moment. On 130% or 160%, or with Randy being Randy, I could see the sieges being significantly more frustrating. I've never seen a 30+ enemy raid with fewer than 15-20 colonists myself. That sounds... Not pleasant.
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 02:50:45 AM
I tend to forget that I play on a median difficulty. Cassandra Challenge is a fairly gentle mistress, and that's about as tough as my skill level allows for at the moment. On 130% or 160%, or with Randy being Randy, I could see the sieges being significantly more frustrating. I've never seen a 30+ enemy raid with fewer than 15-20 colonists myself. That sounds... Not pleasant.
You think that's something? Wait until you see 5 attacks at the same time, in the middle of two ongoing sieges. The entire map becomes a straight-up war zone, everything shooting at everything else. And don't think the fact that they're fighting each other makes it better! Pawns in RimWorld are more likely to hit things OTHER than their target than their actual target, so when they shoot at each other, they'll miss and hit YOU more often than they would if they were all shooting YOU!
Quote from: Darkhymn on March 13, 2015, 02:50:45 AM
Quote from: lusername link=topic=11430.msg114437#msg114437
quote author=Riph link=topic=11430.msg114435#msg114435 date=1426227599]
This attitude I see all over and it is such a mystery to me.
When the enemy brings a mortar siege on me, they have more M-24 troopers guarding the approach to their site than I have colonists in total.
From the IRC, my impression of this is that the people who claim they can just sally forth and shoot them are either playing with mods that enable easy recovery in some way, give far better offensive power, or are playing on Easy. Because what you describe definitely matches MY experiences. To take out siege groups in my game, given that there's about 30 or 40 of them and maybe 5-10 of me, an infinite supply of them and no supply of me, generally involves either artillery duelling them from my mountain fortress, or hiding under the mountain until they pass out from exhaustion and then cutting their throats one by one.
I play on Extreme Challenge, Tundra, huuuge map, and always go raiding the siegers. Even if I am 3 colonists and they are 10. It doesent mean I og out and kill them all, but send my long ranged guy up. I also bring my pistol lad up for protection if countered.
Some times it's very easy, and u can stand behind some rocks and shoot them one by one. Other times it has to be done over several days, because they have a sniper that deal damage on my sniper, or they counterattack with some melee chaps. Then I must retreat, and come back later.
It's not like I'm storming them in an all out battle.
Parkas have -20% global work penalty, isn't that nice ?
Has anyone tried flat tundra and survived ? I mean on 100% difficulty.
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on March 13, 2015, 03:08:51 AMSome times it's very easy, and u can stand behind some rocks and shoot them one by one. Other times it has to be done over several days, because they have a sniper that deal damage on my sniper, or they counterattack with some melee chaps. Then I must retreat, and come back later.
Yeah, THAT sounds a bit more familiar. Unfortunately, doing this does not, in fact, prevent them from incinerating your base.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 13, 2015, 03:21:57 AMParkas have -20% global work penalty, isn't that nice ?
Yeah, but since about 90% of the time-cost of work is the hauling and moving, that's less than you'd think, as work penalty doesn't affect hauling or movement, which are the primary costs of doing anything.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 13, 2015, 03:21:57 AM
Has anyone tried flat tundra and survived ? I mean on 100% difficulty.
I think you would probably die. You'd have nowhere to build, nothing to build it with, and everything would be on fire.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 13, 2015, 03:21:57 AM
Parkas have -20% global work penalty, isn't that nice ?
Has anyone tried flat tundra and survived ? I mean on 100% difficulty.
I did. Had to switch to 5% Phoebe just to give me some time to haul all things to base and sell all slaves. Sniper rifles are your friends.
For colony sieges, you need to be innovative. Send a couple of your best shooters and use hard cover (like a wall). This will be easier if you have snipers of your own, but hunting rifles will work well enough.
The idea is to abuse how they are arranged. You'll usually have a couple of raiders dwindling a little closer than the others, so you can pick them off while skirting the range of the siege snipers.
Alternatively, you can just double-team the enemy snipers that have an interesting habit of not going for cover.
What ultimately does it, however, is that the siege group will just up and raid the colony after they lose a couple of guys. Just need to pop that balloon and then let them flood into your defenses.
I once had the sadistic idea to deploy in an area where it was 50 below, in December, on a flat map. Even building my first room atop a steam geyser wasn't enough to keep everyone warm. Also, at those temperatures, parkas don't help you. Neither does cold lover.
My most recent map I deployed in an area with an average temperature 20 below. 5% phoebe, but a flat map, and no rerolls of who you start with... I ended up with nobody that could research, which is probably gonna bite me later.
Is this just me, or mortars are generally not worth it using yourself ? "Shooting" skill at 20 doesn't seem to improve accuracy. I guess I'd need 2-3 to have a measurable effect, and that's 500-750 steel.
Personally I've only ever found mortars to be useful in a group of at least 5. 5-10 become devastating to sieges and especially tribal attacks that wait first. You might get lucky with less, but especially on sieges the size of their camp is so much smaller than the size of mortar "error".
It kinda sucks because you can't afford all the steel for the mortars and 20-50 shells per attack until late game, and unless you're making serious bank you have to be in a mountain area to have that much available in the first place. Mountain areas are just too good
On the subject of parkas, I know that if you go to the REALLY cold places then you'll be in situations where they aren't enough. Regardless, even going down a little below freezing most people aren't going to be happy outside in it no matter how good your parka is. Of all the people I've met, the only ones that don't mind it either grew up or lived for years in a place that regularly got that cold. Even some of them don't like it either.
I don't think parkas should necessarily be nerfed in the protection against hypotheria, but I wouldn't object to seeing a larger range of when a colonist gets moody for being in the cold. Or are those two intertwined in the code?
That's plain mortars. Have you tried 3 incendiary mortars ? Sounds crazy, but might just work.
Well, consider that you may eventually just need Parkas made out of leather instead of cloth. Offer much better protection.
Quote from: lusername on March 13, 2015, 04:13:28 AM[...]You'd have nowhere to build, nothing to build it with, and everything would be on fire.
Well, at least it would be easy to keep warm!
Quote from: Cazakatari on March 13, 2015, 05:57:13 PM
Personally I've only ever found mortars to be useful in a group of at least 5. 5-10 become devastating to sieges and especially tribal attacks that wait first.
Yeah, you basically need massed batteries if you want to actually hit anything. I would not recommend using them against infantry groups even if you can hit them, though. If you use them to bombard infantry-only groups, any injured that you can potentially recruit will almost certainly bleed out before you can retrieve them, and basically, you're preventing them from bringing the loot to you.