Since I am at work and don't feel like working, I am sitting here refreshing the page waiting for people to start posting their thoughts on the new update, or at least the release notes of it.. Since everyone either doesn't know about it yet or is out playing it, I am not getting a lot yet. Since I am impatient, I will just ask: What do you all think?
patch notes are here if you want a read of them
https://ludeon.com/blog/2015/04/rimworld-alpha-10-joy-system-released/
Quote from: Fernbhoy on April 15, 2015, 02:37:21 PM
patch notes are here if you want a read of them
https://ludeon.com/blog/2015/04/rimworld-alpha-10-joy-system-released/
Yeah, I saw them, thanks. I get a little addicted on release days. I had meant I was hoping to hear people's thoughts on the release notes.
Initial thoughts:
1) Joy, nice. I love it. Also, new furniture. Pretty cool. I wish there was an emotion benefit to having better gear, including nicer quality clothes, and nicer materials.
2) Timetable is awesome. I'm super happy to have it.
3) Outfit management is really great. Seriously, really, really great. But I'm a bit frustrated that there is no way to repair anything ever. I should be able to maintain my clothes, and many weapons, instead of crafting or buying brand new ones all the time. It's very frustrating, especially since the traders rarely have the better weapons to sell.
4) Preventing trees from being grow-able is a bit annoying. The Update to 9 made traders more price aggressive, and now there are no renewable building options. On top of that, wild plants are even slower, so, why not just get rid of wood entirely? How is it different from stone, or steel?
5) Setting skill levels and material restrictions on bills is a really good idea. Super useful. Also, the quality restrictions on zones. Again, super useful. Great Idea.
6) Ok, door locking switches is a real problem. This is one of those ideas that seems cool at first, but doesn't really add anything, and actually hurts gameplay. The only reason to lock doors in the first place is because colonists will just randomly go hunting in the middle of an attack, and get themselves killed. It's an AI problem that was at least manageable by locking the colony doors, and is now even worse.
And, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay. When it was power switching, it at least added a level of power management to the game so you couldn't simply power on/off turrets mid battle. I might not like it, but I can appreciate the added depth. This isn't doing that. It just forces you to micromanage the colonists even more to prevent them from doing things that they shouldn't be trying in the first place. Really, there needs to be a way to keep colonists inside a defense region during attacks, and pathing AI to keep civilians away from enemies, but that's likely a lot of work.
At least add in a research option to develop remote locking doors.
Mostly this is really great. But the door thing is really frustrating, almost to the point where I want to go back to the previous version. The wood thing is a bit annoying too.
-ArdentPause
Wood grows back though, steel and stone don't.
End of the day, Rimworld isn't design for HUGE colonies, it's about a group of survivors and tells a story of their escape/survival. It's open ended so many things can happen, but that's not it's core gameplay. If anything the wood thing helps slow the pace of the game down, You need to split your focus on gathering wood or have a winter where you don't expand and gathering food for the winter.
Don't think many people is iceland build houses for new people while it's -20 degrees in the middle of a food crisis.
So far, a few strange things have cropped up, and I am still trying to get my head around whether they are bugs or just features I don't understand yet.
However, one minor but annoying visual "bug" in A10 I am already certain of is the fact that, when editing a stockpile's valid items in A10, many of the line items in that popup don't line up very accurately with the corresponding checkmarks/X's on the right. Primarily this is true of the "leaf nodes" in that popup (i.e., the items with no children). I have to look kind of close to be able to match up a checkbox with its text now, because of this misalignment. (This is on the Mac version ... I can't speak for the Windows version.)
Quote from: ardentpause on April 15, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
6) Ok, door locking switches is a real problem. This is one of those ideas that seems cool at first, but doesn't really add anything, and actually hurts gameplay. The only reason to lock doors in the first place is because colonists will just randomly go hunting in the middle of an attack, and get themselves killed. It's an AI problem that was at least manageable by locking the colony doors, and is now even worse.
I haven't gotten a chance to play yet and I am really unhappy to read this. I used door locking all the time to keep colonists out of harm. I hope Tynan changes this back.
Quote from: stefanstr on April 16, 2015, 05:11:58 AM
Quote from: ardentpause on April 15, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
6) Ok, door locking switches is a real problem. This is one of those ideas that seems cool at first, but doesn't really add anything, and actually hurts gameplay. The only reason to lock doors in the first place is because colonists will just randomly go hunting in the middle of an attack, and get themselves killed. It's an AI problem that was at least manageable by locking the colony doors, and is now even worse.
I haven't gotten a chance to play yet and I am really unhappy to read this. I used door locking all the time to keep colonists out of harm. I hope Tynan changes this back.
Seems like it's time for a central command console - e.g. deactivate the switch for the outer wall and a colonist will go to the command console and turn it off.
After all, the power switches are all connected via power lines. I can't imagine the colony having solar power plants, but not being able to create a command console.
Quote from: Numar on April 16, 2015, 05:41:31 AM
Quote from: stefanstr on April 16, 2015, 05:11:58 AM
Quote from: ardentpause on April 15, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
6) Ok, door locking switches is a real problem. This is one of those ideas that seems cool at first, but doesn't really add anything, and actually hurts gameplay. The only reason to lock doors in the first place is because colonists will just randomly go hunting in the middle of an attack, and get themselves killed. It's an AI problem that was at least manageable by locking the colony doors, and is now even worse.
I haven't gotten a chance to play yet and I am really unhappy to read this. I used door locking all the time to keep colonists out of harm. I hope Tynan changes this back.
Seems like it's time for a central command console - e.g. deactivate the switch for the outer wall and a colonist will go to the command console and turn it off.
After all, the power switches are all connected via power lines. I can't imagine the colony having solar power plants, but not being able to create a command console.
But that's not the issue. The issue is that lockable doors were an essentially meta-level tool that helped to deal with AI deficiencies. For me, locking a door didn't mean "Joe goes and turns the key so no one can pass through." It meant: "the group decides it isn't safe to go through that door at this time."
This change really adds nothing to the game while lowering my level of control as a player. I would love to hear Tynan's rationale for it.
Quote from: ardentpause on April 15, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
6) Ok, door locking switches is a real problem. This is one of those ideas that seems cool at first, but doesn't really add anything, and actually hurts gameplay. The only reason to lock doors in the first place is because colonists will just randomly go hunting in the middle of an attack, and get themselves killed. It's an AI problem that was at least manageable by locking the colony doors, and is now even worse.
And, it doesn't add anything to the gameplay. When it was power switching, it at least added a level of power management to the game so you couldn't simply power on/off turrets mid battle. I might not like it, but I can appreciate the added depth. This isn't doing that. It just forces you to micromanage the colonists even more to prevent them from doing things that they shouldn't be trying in the first place. Really, there needs to be a way to keep colonists inside a defense region during attacks, and pathing AI to keep civilians away from enemies, but that's likely a lot of work.
I've been watching LPs of the game since Alpha 3, and even in Alpha 9 the AI doesn't seem to have changed and still does unbelievably stupid things. (like walking into 4 melee enemies to try and repair a turret)
But, alpha is alpha, right? Get the core game done so you can work on AI properly. Unfortunate side effect of that is that it's a global playable alpha that anyone, at any time, can play; after they've paid for it. And there's the issue with developing features that affect AI; you can't leave it out until later because it's a huge playability issue and changes people's opinion of the game.
I've commented in Quill's videos that I hope there's some sort of friendly fire option to stop some of the stupid AI issues (walking in line of fire) or help the weird LoS mechanics (people get shot defending a base by their own turrets), but that only bandaids one issue.
Who knows, maybe there will be an AI sweep in Alpha 11, but as of now it looks like people have to micromanage even more, which really sucks. Wonder how Quill's A10 videos will be..
Not being able to grow wood is problematic. With that in place, there is no real renewable option for materials, especially on open maps. In the areas I tend to play in, nothing grows on its own, needing help from me, which complicates the issue further. Once you run out of the limited stone and steel you have, your left with no easy options when it comes to making money besides spuds by the ton.
Overall, I enjoy Joy being added, it adds more depth, however, in the beginning of a game, there needs to be a buffer for Joy at the start of the colony, it pretty much negates the bonus you get and people start running thin on nerves before you get the basics up, its not impossible, just a bit harder than it used to be.
The clothing system is great, I do have one major concern with it though, I would prefer if I set a minimum standard, if there are no clothes in that standard, the colonist would still put on the next best item in the stockpile rather than stripping naked lol.
Trees are a must, especially is desolate levels where clothing is limited and you want a bit more of a challenge.
I would also like to see this get more geared towards long term play, mods currently add more playing time to the game in my opinion, its kind of fun seeing the AI slowly ramp up more and more enemies at you, feels like a unique tower defense rather than trying vanilla waiting for a too big of a drop of mechs to genocide my colony or most of it.
Most mods turned into their most stable state - 'not working'. But I've got a reason to officially declare my stuff depecated
Quote from: ardentpause on April 15, 2015, 04:42:41 PM
Initial thoughts:
[... for brevity ... ]
Mostly this is really great. But the door thing is really frustrating, almost to the point where I want to go back to the previous version. The wood thing is a bit annoying too.
-ArdentPause
pretty much what he said except I fully expect modders to add the functionality back in for doors. seriously, locking doors is just one solution to the ai issues and a lazy one but its more convenient than drafting everyone for the entire fight :)
I find the pace of the vanilla game is a lot slower now and honestly a bit more boring.
Quote from: rtiger on April 16, 2015, 08:29:19 AM
Not being able to grow wood is problematic. With that in place, there is no real renewable option for materials, especially on open maps. In the areas I tend to play in, nothing grows on its own, needing help from me, which complicates the issue further. Once you run out of the limited stone and steel you have, you're left with no easy options when it comes to making money besides spuds by the ton.
That's exactly the reason Tynan made the change. Playing in desert regions with few natural resources is supposed to be very difficult. You can't use the same strategies as you would on maps with more plentiful resources, you have to make do with very little luxuries.
I'm watching them play horseshoes! including little horseshoes flying :) very very nice!
Still in early game but A10 seems to be a lot more difficult than previous alphas (Casandra Challenge). All of my colonists spend most of their time meditating, watching clouds, going for a walk, and 'private time.' If I use the time tables to restrict joy/anytime hours it drives them mad. This wouldn't be a problem later on but it's tough trying to get a self sustaining colony running out of the gate when none of them want to do more than one job iteration before doing a joy activity. In my experience early game is a lot more micromanaging and prioritizing tasks to get started.
Build defenses? The Improvised Steel turrets now seem to require stuff we don't have at the beginning. I'm even baffled as to how to build sandbags. Can someone get me past this Homer Simpson moment?
Getting that fourth colonist seems to be key to getting more work done around the colony, in my opinion.
Also, don't be afraid of consolidating joy time into a block of about four or five hours.
Haulers are often away from base most of the day when there are things far away which need dragging, so they are happiest when you give them a block of joy time before their work starts. Researchers don't tend to leave their work to take a one-hour break.
Also, gaining joy is most efficient when there's more than one kind of joy to experience.
Quote from: Havan_IronOak on April 16, 2015, 02:39:55 PM
Build defenses? The Improvised Steel turrets now seem to require stuff we don't have at the beginning. I'm even baffled as to how to build sandbags. Can someone get me past this Homer Simpson moment?
You need steel for those.
Regarding the door lock switches, you guys are right. It's really "forbidding" the door more than "locking" it. I'll reverse that. Thanks.
As for other issues, I'm going to release a hotfix addressing some of them as well.
Quote from: Tynan on April 16, 2015, 04:26:43 PM
Regarding the door lock switches, you guys are right. It's really "forbidding" the door more than "locking" it. I'll reverse that. Thanks.
As for other issues, I'm going to release a hotfix addressing some of them as well.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!
You just earned 100 reputation points for listening to your players. :)
Tynan, I just want to say how much I appreciate it that you respond with hotfixes. In fact, I was counting on it when I posted. I think you should know that I was as critical as I was only because I knew that you would listen. I love Rimworld, far more than maybe my first post suggests. I just wanted you to know that, and I wanted to say thanks.
Thanks.
-Ardentpause
Quote from: ardentpause on April 16, 2015, 05:56:51 PM
Tynan, I just want to say how much I appreciate it that you respond with hotfixes. In fact, I was counting on it when I posted. I think you should know that I was as critical as I was only because I knew that you would listen. I love Rimworld, far more than maybe my first post suggests. I just wanted you to know that, and I wanted to say thanks.
I love getting constructive criticism. In fact I don't think I can do my job without it. So thank you very much for posting.
Quote from: MarvinKosh on April 16, 2015, 02:43:58 PM
Quote from: Havan_IronOak on April 16, 2015, 02:39:55 PM
Build defenses? The Improvised Steel turrets now seem to require stuff we don't have at the beginning. I'm even baffled as to how to build sandbags. Can someone get me past this Homer Simpson moment?
You need steel for those.
I needed steel in A9 and I have steel. It says that I need sandbags. Are those made now? Perhaps on the smithing table?
Thus far, I feel like the new needs system is good. It will take a little time to get used to 80% colonist effiency, but I felt bad for them when they were happily working themselves to death. I do have a couple of notes that I'd like to compare with you guys.
1) I always struggled to put up a good enough defense early game, and now it's even harder to get it done due to the need for joy. Maybe it's just my playstyle.
2) Raiders tend to get PISSED as soon as you capture them because they're in excruciating pain. Had a few break out and ended up having to put them down. I needed those guys as colonists. Balancing caring for their health and the health of my own colonists after a big raid has always been challening, but now it is more challenging.
3) Unsure if it is a bug or a feature, but it no longer rains after sufficient fires are raging. It nearly wiped out my map until I got wise and used devmode to force it to rain. I guess it's realistic, but the rate of forest fires from lightning strikes during "dry thunderstorms" is not. This coupled with the fact that trees cannot be grown can be catastrophic. More testing is needed before I report this as a bug.
4) I like being able to bribe my colonists with fun and games - Get the "Tons o' joy" bonus and it's easier to get away with organ harversting/slave trading. By the way, how come they get so upset when we sell someone into slavery but are indifferent when we buy/free a slave? Shouldn't that elicit an emotion?
seems like since 10b patch, some of my colonists never get happy. They do joy activities but it never builds up. So they are always joy deprived. I have them set for 6 hours of Joy, 3 hours before and after work. but always joy deprived.
Quote from: wakko151 on April 17, 2015, 12:53:02 AM
seems like since 10b patch, some of my colonists never get happy. They do joy activities but it never builds up. So they are always joy deprived. I have them set for 6 hours of Joy, 3 hours before and after work. but always joy deprived.
What joy activities do they have available?
Quote from: Havan_IronOak on April 16, 2015, 02:39:55 PM
Build defenses? The Improvised Steel turrets now seem to require stuff we don't have at the beginning. I'm even baffled as to how to build sandbags. Can someone get me past this Homer Simpson moment?
My Bad! I loaded a mod that I wasn't familiar with. It changed the rules on turrets and sandbag emplacements.
I has played alpha 10 for a few games. Here are what I got.
1. Joy - Increase CPU process significantly (I'm sure because I played alpha 9 too which got optimized)
- joy takes 30-50% of my colonists time. Basically, I have 2 sleeping bars to fill.
- It should be able to command them to play cheese or snooker. I have not seen they have played cheese with each other once. Sometimes, they watch cloud, take a walk or something else instead of using entertainment tools I commanded them to create.
2. Trading - this system currently forces players to have colonists with fireball artist or fireball crafting to create goods for trading. As far as I can see now this is the only way to make real silver.
3. % Difficulty - The number and strength of attackers are noticeably decreased. They are weaker and take longer time to attack my colony.
4. Vent - I'm not sure what they are really good at. Simply put heaters or coolers for rooms seems to be better than using vents.