Hi all. Coming here from the Dwarf Fortress forums, and there was a question about power generation that Tynan commented he'd like to do more with. So, some thoughts & ideas. (Bearing in mind that I have to wait 29 more days to actually play the game, so I'm going off video information. )
From the vids I've seen, it looks like the default/only power generation method so far is solar panels & batteries. Also, there are comments about tech levels ranging from primitive to extreme future-tech. Adding to that, the initial settlers are crash survivors.
My rough thoughts on the matter:
- Initial power generation would come from hooking into the crash pods (small scale solar panels & batteries). Very minor levels of power generation, that would need to be upgraded as you grow the colony.
- The crash pod might include some kind of survival guide, allowing the colonists to make primitive tech. The exact types available would be varied, due to computer damage in the crash.
- Some colonists might have knowledge of other tech.
- Research, or buying "recipes" for more advanced stuff.
I'm not if this kind of thing is already planned, or how the research tree is set, so these are just some initial ideas from reading posts, in the interests of stirring discussion. :)
Personally, I would like to see a detailed and varied research tree. Plus it could tie in to other facets, such as available resources, trading, or newcomers bringing in knowledge.
I like the idea of the escape pods being used for early game power, maybe they could even be used for early shelter from the elements. They would only last for a few nights at most to force you into building something more permanent.
The low tech start is something I like to, Finding the first set of plans in the wreckage could be randomly chosen from a small set of low tech upgrades.
As for storage i'm wondering if there are any plans to have to manage the debris made from mining out walls? On the videos I've currently seen it looks like they leave no trace behind when mining, I know it can be a pain but I liked it in Dwarf Fortress when part of mining was also housekeeping and getting all that rock out of there. Again this could be tied into the research options, maybe the upgraded miners leave a lot less debris behind etc.
Quote from: Spike on October 04, 2013, 09:40:07 PM
The crash pod might include some kind of survival guide, allowing the colonists to make primitive tech. The exact types available would be varied, due to computer damage in the crash.
I'm assuming it already does, somehow, as the different things you can build are always the same, disregarding your colonists' knowledge.
And since you can choose to start with 3 illiterate survivors...
On the matter of power generation, Tynan said (can't remember where) that the plan is indeed to have a whole range of power-generating apparatuses, with drawbacks, so that they are not over-powered (I'm so funny !).
This could probably be that for instance, if you build a nuclear plant, there could be leaks, so you wouldn't want to have your colonists live close to it... and maybe it's very unstable and can explode and do a huge mess.
TL;DR: It's in the pipe.
As for production, storage and tech - I think it should apply not only to power, but also:
- Water
Obvious stuff. Store water to survive droughts and heat waves, water the plants. Clean water for safe drinking. More advanced systems would allow you to turn water into hydrogen and use it as a power cells for weapons (or perhaps in future: vehicles). Finally you'll have to gather purified water and hydrogen for your space ship (hydrogen again can be used as a fuel).
Extracting hydrogen could also produce oxygen to be use in "air" part:
- Air
It's something oriented more at the space ship construction. First you'll be able to install air filters in the indoors areas and tunnels to prevent some catastrophic events (like dust storms) from harming your colonists. Eventually you will need oxygen pumps to pump fresh air into very long, deep tunnels, finally you'll be able to adapt some of air-clearing machinery onto the space ship for life support.
Quote from: Sky_walker on October 05, 2013, 10:38:26 AM
As for production, storage and tech - I think it should apply not only to power, but also:
- Water
Obvious stuff. Store water to survive droughts and heat waves, water the plants. Clean water for safe drinking. More advanced systems would allow you to turn water into hydrogen and use it as a power cells for weapons (or perhaps in future: vehicles). Finally you'll have to gather purified water and hydrogen for your space ship (hydrogen again can be used as a fuel).
Extracting hydrogen could also produce oxygen to be use in "air" part:
- Air
It's something oriented more at the space ship construction. First you'll be able to install air filters in the indoors areas and tunnels to prevent some catastrophic events (like dust storms) from harming your colonists. Eventually you will need oxygen pumps to pump fresh air into very long, deep tunnels, finally you'll be able to adapt some of air-clearing machinery onto the space ship for life support.
solar batteries - day and night cycle - else no defence at night
Quote from: Sky_walker on October 05, 2013, 10:38:26 AM
- Air
It's something oriented more at the space ship construction. First you'll be able to install air filters in the indoors areas and tunnels to prevent some catastrophic events (like dust storms) from harming your colonists. Eventually you will need oxygen pumps to pump fresh air into very long, deep tunnels, finally you'll be able to adapt some of air-clearing machinery onto the space ship for life support.
There's actually already an "Air Miner (http://rimworld.wikia.com/wiki/File:AirMiner.png)", an "Air Tank (http://rimworld.wikia.com/wiki/File:AirTank_Base.png)" and an "Air Outlet (http://rimworld.wikia.com/wiki/File:AirOutlet.png)" in-game, but I'm not sure they're of any use as of right now.
Tynan is considering having low-oxygen atmospheres, though, possibly for higher difficulty settings.
Quote from: Rainy on October 04, 2013, 10:18:27 PMAs for storage i'm wondering if there are any plans to have to manage the debris made from mining out walls? On the videos I've currently seen it looks like they leave no trace behind when mining, I know it can be a pain but I liked it in Dwarf Fortress when part of mining was also housekeeping and getting all that rock out of there. Again this could be tied into the research options, maybe the upgraded miners leave a lot less debris behind etc.
Mining don't produce debris, but destroyed stuff does. Right now there no way of removing completely rock, debris and slag, you have to make your colonists haul them to designated dump areas.
Air, heat and cooling would all be good tie-ins to the Biome module idea, or even a generalized "comfort zone" type of status. Heck, who doesn't like AC on a hot day? :P Actually, power plants could also generate varying amounts of heat, which could be good or bad based on the biome you're in (if/when biomes are put in).
I'm not sure how the game handles power generation and usage. I would imagine that power plants generate X units of power per Y unit of time, and that machines use X power per Y time. Batteries would store the overflow, and be used when the generator is not functioning.
Also, the idea of "researching" from a survival guide would be about like any of us researching how to build anything from the web. I mean, I have a rough idea of how to build a wind turbine power generator - but I couldn't sit down and do it, without more information. I don't think power generators should be any kind of linear tree, but independent research items in that field, so you could get what you want depending on what resources are available.
Some rough ideas, in a rough order of complexity:
Wind turbine - variable (zero to low) output, outdoor, dependent on wind, less effective if surrounded by hills/buildings.
Water turbine (are water tiles even in the game or planned?) - steady (low) output, outdoor.
Fossil fuel plant - burns fossil fuels (coal, oil), steady (medium) output, pollutes nearby/contained atmosphere (so no burying it in a hill, without having vulnerable vents), steady output.
Geothermal plant - steady (medium to high) output
Fission reactor - "burns" radioactive materials, steady (high) output, chance of dangerous leaks especially if damaged.
Solar cells - steady (medium) output, daytime only, outdoors.
As for storage, I had originally meant "power storage". :) Batteries aren't just batteries - you use different ones for your phone and car. So I thought maybe there should be a variety of battery tanks, that would hold different amounts of power - small, medium & large. Yes, you could build multiples, but the advantage of having a larger battery would be that it could hold more than multiple smaller batteries. But it would also cost more to build, and there might be a chance of explosions or leakage from damage, with the potential danger increasing with size. (As in, radius of explosion/contamination, not just a greater chance.)
Quote from: Spike on October 05, 2013, 05:12:33 PM
Some rough ideas, in a rough order of complexity:
Wind turbine - variable (zero to low) output, outdoor, dependent on wind, less effective if surrounded by hills/buildings.
Water turbine (are water tiles even in the game or planned?) - steady (low) output, outdoor.
Fossil fuel plant - burns fossil fuels (coal, oil), steady (medium) output, pollutes nearby/contained atmosphere (so no burying it in a hill, without having vulnerable vents), steady output.
Geothermal plant - steady (medium to high) output
Fission reactor - "burns" radioactive materials, steady (high) output, chance of dangerous leaks especially if damaged.
Solar cells - steady (medium) output, daytime only, outdoors.
I'm not sure what Tynan's plans are for batteries varying in size, though the tooltip does state their ultimate capacity so perhaps it's an indicator it's future content. I'm not sure about the idea of them suddenly exploding, but perhaps if you didn't use them enough, or the opposite, you kept draining them and refilling them all the time instead of letting them maintain a steady medium-level then they'd malfunction/explode.
I like the energy ideas, though I'm leery of "Fossil Fuel" as obviously that is just an abundance of organic life from eons past crushed and pressurized and heated, the RimWorld we're on may have a few scarce plants and creatures now but it may have only recently developed life?
Throwing in a few of my own for the higher-tech fictional tiers:
Biomass
Fusion Reactor
Cold Fusion Reactor
Graviton Accelerator
Dark Matter Reducer
Also an amusing one for the very low-tier that popped into my head is wrangling Muffalo onto treadmills. Shhh, don't call PETA :-X
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:03:59 PM
I'm not sure what Tynan's plans are for batteries varying in size, though the tooltip does state their ultimate capacity so perhaps it's an indicator it's future content. I'm not sure about the idea of them suddenly exploding
I was mainly thinking about side effects, good or bad, with explosions as a possible result from damage. Looking at the wiki, for example, there are Table, Short (Size 2x2, Cost 20 Metal, HP 150 ) and Table, Long (Size 4x2, Cost 35 Metal, HP 250). So smaller batteries might be cheaper on a 1v1 basis, but would not be as sturdy nor hold as much. Building one Battery, Medium would be cheaper than building two Battery, Small. On the bad side, if they get damaged in a fight, an exploding Battery, Medium would deal more damage over a bigger area.
Quote from: AspenShadow
I like the energy ideas, though I'm leery of "Fossil Fuel" as obviously that is just an abundance of organic life from eons past crushed and pressurized and heated, the RimWorld we're on may have a few scarce plants and creatures now but it may have only recently developed life?
Throwing in a few of my own for the higher-tech fictional tiers:
Biomass
Fusion Reactor
Cold Fusion Reactor
Graviton Accelerator
Dark Matter Reducer
Also an amusing one for the very low-tier that popped into my head is wrangling Muffalo onto treadmills. Shhh, don't call PETA :-X
I actually did think about treadmills, which do have a historical precedent (http://www.historytoday.com/j-kenneth-major/pre-industrial-sources-power-muscle-power). :) And I do agree with you about Fossil Fuels - there is no reason for every map to have every resource. I think this would be a good addition to the Biome idea - different resources for different biomes. Cold dead world with no geothermal vents. New-life world with no "life history" to have produced fossil fuels.
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:03:59 PM
(...) perhaps if you didn't use them enough, or the opposite, you kept draining them and refilling them all the time instead of letting them maintain a steady medium-level then they'd malfunction/explode.
It would probably step on "too much micro-management" territory, just like switching appliances on and off to save on power...
Quote from: British on October 06, 2013, 05:10:17 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:03:59 PM
(...) perhaps if you didn't use them enough, or the opposite, you kept draining them and refilling them all the time instead of letting them maintain a steady medium-level then they'd malfunction/explode.
It would probably step on "too much micro-management" territory, just like switching appliances on and off to save on power...
The thought had occurred to me as I was writing it down tbh, though in the current Pre-Alpha you can turn power to certain things off such as the turrets. Do you think this will be unique to automated weaponry? Or all automated machine content?
It's probably more about Tynan exploring concepts than anything specific, but only he can answer that... and with the explosion of people (and threads) on the forum, it might take some time before we get an answer :P
Lol quite true :)
Out of curiosity, as you're the veteran here, what time zone does Tynan operate in?
Is he Canadian and someplace else or actually in Canada?
http://ludeon.com/blog/studio/
"Ludeon Studios is an independent game developer in Ottawa, Canada."
I'd assume he's there indeed, as he IS Ludeon Studios, for all intent and purpose :P
Also, the default forum clock is most likely aligned there.
This seems like a good topic to revive in order to talk about different energy generation systems. Here's a quote from Spike that lists a number of ideas:
Quote from: Spike on October 05, 2013, 05:12:33 PM
Some rough ideas, in a rough order of complexity:
Wind turbine - variable (zero to low) output, outdoor, dependent on wind, less effective if surrounded by hills/buildings.
Water turbine (are water tiles even in the game or planned?) - steady (low) output, outdoor.
Fossil fuel plant - burns fossil fuels (coal, oil), steady (medium) output, pollutes nearby/contained atmosphere (so no burying it in a hill, without having vulnerable vents), steady output.
Geothermal plant - steady (medium to high) output
Fission reactor - "burns" radioactive materials, steady (high) output, chance of dangerous leaks especially if damaged.
Solar cells - steady (medium) output, daytime only, outdoors.
Out of these, we already have the Geothermal Plant and Solar Cells. Uranium is in the game but currently non-functional, so presumably reactors are planned for the future.
The idea I'd most like to see is a coal (or similar) plant, since including coal would give mining another purpose as well. This would be a resource-limited source of power, which isn't currently in the game. I don't know if the game needs a pollution mechanic; I think the opportunity cost of colonists having to mine coal and bring it to a coal furnace and the fact that it's a consumable resource are enough drawbacks.
In addition to the ones in this list, here are some other possibilities mentioned in this thread or elsewhere:
Lightning Rods - lightning rods could attract lighting and generate power when struck. This would only be an occasional source of power, so it's unlikely players would rely on it. If these are implemented the primary purpose would be redirecting lightning. In order to not completely neutralize the threat the heat from the lightning could still start fires around the rods.
Animal Power - things like hamster (squirrel) wheels or Muffalo treadmills could generate power. It seems like this would require Animal Husbandry mechanics to be implemented so that animals can be tamed and trained. This would be one of the more unique sources of power.
Colonist Power - Colonists could run some kind of mechanical device to generate power. The cost of the power here would be the Colonists' time. A drawback would be this couldn't provide power when Colonists are sleeping.
One thing to be cautious of is making the power system too complicated and confusing for players. Each source of power should be unique - if Colonists can burn coal for power then we shouldn't do the same for oil and natural gas because it's all functionally similar, and the extra options would just complicate the system. Rather than implementing all the different ideas we come up with I think we should look at all the ideas and see which ones would add the most depth to the game.
I'd lose the fossil fuels and just go with biomass. It's all organic matter anyway, and saves the complexity of having something else to mine. Animal/colonist power would be silly though.
I like the niches you proposed, Spike. Water turbines should be cheap, like a spammable geothermal plantâ€"they share the niche of "free" energy that you are restricted on placement.
Agreed, me and Spike already discussed the Lore Difficulty that comes with adding fossil fuels I think somewhere in this thread. Biomass is the simpler solution, though I'd beg you to reconsider the idea of Muffalo on treadmills simply for the comic value of it in Low-Tech societies.
I think an important thing to consider is how much player involvement should be involved with power generation. A reason why I'd like to see a resource-gathering system like fossil fuels is because it keeps the player involved in assigning colonists to mine the resource, or trading for the resource, or etc. The same goes for animal power with the animals being trained/managed.
The current power sources like solar panels and geothermic plants are a "build and forget" system. Unless something goes wrong once a player's built them that's the end of the player involvement.
I think it would be good to have both types of power sources for the power system. What do you think?
I think what really needs to be developed first is the end goal. I mean, if it would go with the "build spaceship & leave" goal, you'd be keeping your colonists busy researching, harvesting resources, and then actually building the ship. In addition to growing food and fending off bandits. If that is the case, I like the hands-off type of power generation as it is now. You get metals, build the generators, lay out power lines, and you can leave it alone aside from repairs.
On the other hand, if you have to mine coal for the power plant, then it adds another management burden on the player, which could pile up.
*This sparks a storyline idea to resolve some issues, but would require reworking a few other things. What if everyone (you, traders, pirates) are all shipwreck survivors. Some want to live there and will interact with you (traders). Others want to take your stuff (pirates). It would make a bit more sense than traders flying by and refusing to give you a lift.
Quote from: Spike on October 14, 2013, 03:26:11 PM
I think what really needs to be developed first is the end goal.
I disagree with all respect, this is an issue that will not be resolved to everyone's taste for QUITE some time lol and that's if Ty even decides on an end game for a Sim-based builder that wasn't designed with one in mind. There are many options and I think in the end that's what's going to happen to the project. Many endings, chosen perhaps based on the story-teller or by the player or even by the colonists based on how the AI interprets you're playing the game, but there won't be a single "Let's Get Off This Rock!" ending imo.
And in the meantime we can't let that delay/interfere with discussing important issues even if we have to discuss the possible systems to put in place for both no end-game, leave-end-game, and every end-game.
Quote from: Spike on October 14, 2013, 03:26:11 PM
*This sparks a storyline idea to resolve some issues, but would require reworking a few other things. What if everyone (you, traders, pirates) are all shipwreck survivors. Some want to live there and will interact with you (traders). Others want to take your stuff (pirates). It would make a bit more sense than traders flying by and refusing to give you a lift.
Once again the "Hitchhiker Inconsistency" as I've come to call it, is currently the most hotly debated topic on the forum and it's something I agree really needs to be sorted. We must try to restrict brainstorming of loopholes that are somewhat Canon/Plot-Relevant for the RimWorld saga to ONE thread because people are getting side-tracked into discussing it on 3/5 threads I visit.
Yeah, I posted the storyline idea over in the Rimworld story clarification (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=261.0) thread already, after I had put it here. It was just a random thought that popped up as I was replying here.
But what I meant about developing the end goal was that it would be too easy to be overwhelmed with things to do. Yes, each little idea just adds a little... but it all adds up for the player. So if we get a major amount of resources that need to be gathered, that will take time away from other things that we need to get done. From the videos so far, it looks like it could be easy to get task overload.
It really boils down to resource allocation for the player, with the limited resource being your colonists. Build or dig? Talk to prisoners or plant food? Bury bodies and clean up blood splatter, or research? But so far, everything really relies on power, so it's an important thing to keep in mind - everything in the game so far is a one-time resource allocation. You get the metal, build the generator and batteries and not really worry about it unless you have to expand. If you add in a continuing need to get fuel, it puts extra strain on what the player can do - which might be a valid design element, if it's planned for and integrated with other facets of the game.
However, I could see a one-time structure to do fossil fuels. Lets say you have an oil-burning generator, and need to build it on an "oil deposit" - functionally the same as a geothermal vent. Or have to link the generator to an "oil well" that will automatically pump oil to the generator. But I couldn't see (as the game currently is) having a coal burning plant that requires you to continually dig coal and haul it over.
Along those lines, I could see a biomass generator, that can be used to dispose of animal corpses, as long as the power is not dependent on the corpses. Just assume it has enough fuel, and use it as a convenient dumping ground for muffalo, boomrat & squirrel bodies (unless they'll be implemented for food paste).
Quote from: SpaceEatingTrex on October 14, 2013, 02:58:51 PM
I think an important thing to consider is how much player involvement should be involved with power generation. A reason why I'd like to see a resource-gathering system like fossil fuels is because it keeps the player involved in assigning colonists to mine the resource, or trading for the resource, or etc. The same goes for animal power with the animals being trained/managed.
The current power sources like solar panels and geothermic plants are a "build and forget" system. Unless something goes wrong once a player's built them that's the end of the player involvement.
I think it would be good to have both types of power sources for the power system. What do you think?
I agree that a build-and-forget system will reduce player interest.
I propose the following:
1. All buildings / machines, etc have power requirements.
You can build buildings but you cannot use them if you do not have enough power.
You can power on/off buildings to micro-manage. This incentivises the player to increase power sources.
2. The initial solar generator would generate enough power to get the basics up and running (say 10x) (where x is a unit of power).
3. Beyond that, you will need to make choices.
You can make more solar generators only after re-searching them (a long time in the tree).
You can go with various options - suggested by people in other posts like wind, coal, etc.
I don't have a problem with coal. Not even from a lore point of view. Why couldn't life have started on this planet long back.
Other than power generation, I think there could be a lot of fun in some additional methods of power redirection and control.
Pressure plates, trip wires and motion detectors(slight power drain) could allow for some devices to only be activated when needed for power conservation or traps.
Resistors, diodes and logic gates allow for dedicated batteries (Power goes in, but can only be used by a single circuit or device), or complex devices (air locks, traps).
Powered pumps (if water is implemented), Fans (likewise temperture), Electric Fences and other devices could be controlled by the above items. This could be for on demand cooling, irrigation or the ever popular traps.
The main advantage of creating system components here, rather than black box systems is that is allows the player to create grand, over complicated creations in addition to merely survival orientated devices. This can add a great deal of entertainment and self inflicted 'fun' for those times when there are no raiders, pest infestations and starvation.
Being able to export power (selling it, maybe in a form of crafting portable batteries, charging and selling them) Would be nice. Energy is most definitely a commodity, and it would be helpful to somehow be able to sell it. Perhaps by a research item which costs X amount of metal, removes a large amount of power from the grid, and can be sold for a good amount.
another idea, it would be funny if you could use squirrels / muffalos on running wheel generators.
On a side note, it would be useful to have a hardened conduit which gives immunity to solar flares (perhaps other electrical failures) and also have higher health.
if tynan will ever add ammunition you could craft your own power cells.
Quote from: Spike on October 14, 2013, 03:26:11 PM
*This sparks a storyline idea to resolve some issues, but would require reworking a few other things. What if everyone (you, traders, pirates) are all shipwreck survivors. Some want to live there and will interact with you (traders). Others want to take your stuff (pirates). It would make a bit more sense than traders flying by and refusing to give you a lift.
I like this idea. Not from a Lore point of view, but from playability.
Some of them will be on-map, some off-map.
Quote from: Hypolite on October 05, 2013, 11:47:13 AMMining don't produce debris, but destroyed stuff does. Right now there no way of removing completely rock, debris and slag, you have to make your colonists haul them to designated dump areas.
Which you can then surround with blasting charges and thus vaporize all of the offending debris.
I would like to see electricity safety items. Like breakers to limit a shorting wall's pull to just what your generators are making currently, and maybe a few other ways to store power that would be less prone to exploding or burning when wet or damaged. Like outdoor batteries or hardened batteries would be nice to have.
Backup batteries would be cool too. Basically batteries that don't discharge until all other batteries and power sources fail. That way you could put them near your turrets or other defenses that need power and would be secure (till they ran out anyway) if you lost your generators or the conduits were destroyed. You could balance that by making them only power what is near them via the small conduits. that way they would be a one room backup system that would keep the doors and lights working in a room or keep a turret firing after you lost your solar arrays. Just a random thought.
And breakers to protect against power surges like the shorting walls and lightning strikes would be nice to have.