I know this is a bit of a loaded question, and the usual answer is 'When it's done' however even the best developers have a time frame. I've seen this game turn from a murder simulator to a... more advanced murder simulator :)
The problem with a game like Rimworld is that you could just keep adding features forever in theory.
So how happy are you with the game in the state it is, and if Tynan ever graces me with his presence, how long do you think development will be? I'm not asking for a date, but months, years?
But you are asking for a date... I know Tyn has stated before, it's done when he feels it's done...
I don't know about you, but I happy with that answer. I feel if Tyn slapped a Released tag on it today, I've gotten more than my money's worth out of it. Especially with the modding that has been done.
Agreed with laston that the game is already great value for money. Anything else added is just icing on the cake.
I also look forward to when he goes 1.0 and releases it on Steam. While the modders are already great, I imagine modding will go into overdrive once the game is more widely played and the core code is relatively stable.
You guys are welcome to speculate. For me I see no immediate reason to end it. It still makes good money, I enjoy working on it and people enjoy playing it so why not continue?
I don't have a "final vision" for the game because I consider design to be an exploratory process. So I keep "lodestars" to guide and focus the design, but it's not about coloring in some predetermined set of lines in my head.
QuoteFor me I see no immediate reason to end it. It still makes good money, I enjoy working on it and people enjoy playing it so why not continue?
This makes me happy :)
Quote from: Tynan on May 29, 2015, 11:50:34 PM
You guys are welcome to speculate. For me I see no immediate reason to end it. It still makes good money, I enjoy working on it and people enjoy playing it so why not continue?
I don't have a "final vision" for the game because I consider design to be an exploratory process. So I keep "lodestars" to guide and focus the design, but it's not about coloring in some predetermined set of lines in my head.
If I may analogize, do you see yourself as someone who draws the focus first and then draws the background/side stuff, or do you see yourself as someone who draws the background first and works their way into the focus?
That might not be the best analogy or, even if it is a decent analogy, it might not be easily answerable given your method of development, but if you think it could apply, I'd be interested in your answer.
I think Tynan loves putting new ideas in and then when he has enough feedback from the community, he tweaks the new features. Top notch developing imo.
i've started considering rimworld as one of the timeless sandbox classics like dwarf fortress, minecraft, terraria, etc.. ever since the game changing introduction of the biomes and temperature system.
meanwhile : relationship system, religion system, water & hygiene system, pregnancy & kids system, z-level system, multiplayer system, more zoning system, visitor interaction sytem, fame(?) system, etc.. there are still many game changing paths that can be explored in the future for the expansion of rimworld.
besides, there's already like a world of difference between alpha 1 and alpha 11 (i've been playing this game since alpha 1), which is why people will probably keep buying it coz it's like a fresh new game almost every update. ;D
Quote from: keylocke on May 30, 2015, 10:33:21 AM
i've started considering rimworld as one of the timeless sandbox classics like dwarf fortress, minecraft, terraria, etc.. ever since the game changing introduction of the biomes and temperature system.
meanwhile : relationship system, religion system, water & hygiene system, pregnancy & kids system, z-level system, multiplayer system, more zoning system, visitor interaction sytem, fame(?) system, etc.. there are still many game changing paths that can be explored in the future for the expansion of rimworld.
I can't really see kids, pregnancy, z level In this game, ever. It's not the sims which in my opinion is a good thing. But man a hydration system would fit in right at home!
besides, there's already like a world of difference between alpha 1 and alpha 11 (i've been playing this game since alpha 1), which is why people will probably keep buying it coz it's like a fresh new game almost every update. ;D
Er.... Elixiar, I thing you messed up your [ quote].
I've seen that happen a lot recently.
Z-Levels could be pretty interesting for Rimworld. Making 3d structures, just greatly expands what you can do with the tools already in place.
And babies and preggers, are just part of simulating life that the game is already doing. Its doubtful any colony would be ran long enough to have any of the kids reach age of maturty, but thats never been a real problem for say, Dwarf Fortress. I was shocked when I had a dog die of old age, and I like it when my dorfs have kids.
Since Rimworld is going to be an open ended development, the time to complete it is Infinite.
So that means it is already 2 years in development.
2 Years is exactly 0% of an infinite amount of years.
So there you have it, at the moment completion is at exactly 0%.
Quote from: Skissor on May 31, 2015, 08:16:40 AM
Since Rimworld is going to be an open ended development, the time to complete it is Infinite.
So that means it is already 2 years in development.
2 Years is exactly 0% of an infinite amount of years.
So there you have it, at the moment completion is at exactly 0%.
Actually.... It isn't 0%, because at some point Tynan will add to game everything that he will can add. For example Tynan can't add whole universe to the Rimworld, because computers just don't have so good hard drives ;D
Quote from: Adamiks on May 31, 2015, 10:06:42 AM
For example Tynan can't add whole universe to the Rimworld, because computers just don't have so good hard drives ;D
Yet...
Quote from: Frankenbeasley on May 31, 2015, 10:16:57 AM
Quote from: Adamiks on May 31, 2015, 10:06:42 AM
For example Tynan can't add whole universe to the Rimworld, because computers just don't have so good hard drives ;D
Yet...
Aye, yet, but Tynan is working fast ;)
Quote from: Adamiks on May 31, 2015, 10:06:42 AM
Actually.... It isn't 0%, because at some point Tynan will add to game everything that he will can add.
As resourcefull as he is, he could add content until after the universe's heat death.
Quote from: SSS on May 30, 2015, 06:03:44 AM
If I may analogize, do you see yourself as someone who draws the focus first and then draws the background/side stuff, or do you see yourself as someone who draws the background first and works their way into the focus?
That might not be the best analogy or, even if it is a decent analogy, it might not be easily answerable given your method of development, but if you think it could apply, I'd be interested in your answer.
I don't organize things as focus/background. In fact I'm not sure what you mean, so I can't answer. For me, I just prioritize tasks by cost/benefit and do the best one all the time.
Quote from: Tynan on May 31, 2015, 01:25:46 PM
Quote from: SSS on May 30, 2015, 06:03:44 AM
If I may analogize, do you see yourself as someone who draws the focus first and then draws the background/side stuff, or do you see yourself as someone who draws the background first and works their way into the focus?
That might not be the best analogy or, even if it is a decent analogy, it might not be easily answerable given your method of development, but if you think it could apply, I'd be interested in your answer.
I don't organize things as focus/background. In fact I'm not sure what you mean, so I can't answer. For me, I just prioritize tasks by cost/benefit and do the best one all the time.
So in general:
Tynan is Randy Random!
Quote from: Adamiks on May 31, 2015, 02:19:19 PM
Quote from: Tynan on May 31, 2015, 01:25:46 PM
Quote from: SSS on May 30, 2015, 06:03:44 AM
If I may analogize, do you see yourself as someone who draws the focus first and then draws the background/side stuff, or do you see yourself as someone who draws the background first and works their way into the focus?
That might not be the best analogy or, even if it is a decent analogy, it might not be easily answerable given your method of development, but if you think it could apply, I'd be interested in your answer.
I don't organize things as focus/background. In fact I'm not sure what you mean, so I can't answer. For me, I just prioritize tasks by cost/benefit and do the best one all the time.
So in general:
Tynan is Randy Random!
Or, since he's still not adding it as a new Storyteller, he's in fact Tony Troll.
I wish all development went along like Rimworld :)
Tynan has that direct contact with the community which is fantastic.
We always know what's happening, and I love reading the daily change log page every now and then to see all the goodies being added.
Larger companies can learn from this (being so open and transparent), it makes for happy customers and we get a better game for it :)
I think some are catching on slowly.
Sadly larger companies suffer from structural disadvantages when it comes to being in contact with customers.
People talk about how hard it is to be an indie dev, and there are definitely big challenges here, but there are also a lot of tremendous advantages.
Now I'm curious. What are some advantages of indie dev?
Quote from: Skissor on June 01, 2015, 05:12:44 PM
Now I'm curious. What are some advantages of indie dev?
1. Easy to change global company policy in an instant. This takes months to do in organizations and often sparks bitter political resistance from people with a vested interest in the old way.
2. All resources are fungible with each other since they're all just the time of one person. I can change to making a text game if I want; I don't have to worry about all the artists in my company who will now have nothing to do. Related to 1.
3. With one dev, there are no non-media-savvy devs who might say something that could get grabbed and made into some lurid headline. It's easy to be 100% consistent with your messaging and responses to questions. This in turn means there is no reason anyone should be prohibited from speaking to the community, which in turn makes you 100% participatory.
4. With nothing to lose, you're free to take risks on unusual properties. It's not necessarily the end of the world if you lose a year of dev time on something. But for a big company this is a disaster. Even if the company can survive it, the people who did it won't. So nobody takes any risks; strategies become about avoiding the possibility of blame for failure, rather than seeking optimal risk tradeoffs.
Many many others. I wrote about this a lot in my book actually.
Quote from: Tynan on June 01, 2015, 05:19:22 PM
Quote from: Skissor on June 01, 2015, 05:12:44 PM
Now I'm curious. What are some advantages of indie dev?
1. Easy to change global company policy in an instant. This takes months to do in organizations and often sparks bitter political resistance from people with a vested interest in the old way.
2. All resources are fungible with each other since they're all just the time of one person. I can change to making a text game if I want; I don't have to worry about all the artists in my company who will now have nothing to do. Related to 1.
3. With one dev, there are no non-media-savvy devs who might say something that could get grabbed and made into some lurid headline. It's easy to be 100% consistent with your messaging and responses to questions. This in turn means there is no reason anyone should be prohibited from speaking to the community, which in turn makes you 100% participatory.
4. With nothing to lose, you're free to take risks on unusual properties. It's not necessarily the end of the world if you lose a year of dev time on something. But for a big company this is a disaster. Even if the company can survive it, the people who did it won't. So nobody takes any risks; strategies become about avoiding the possibility of blame for failure, rather than seeking optimal risk tradeoffs.
Many many others. I wrote about this a lot in my book actually.
Very nice, especially since this is a career turn that is not out of the question for me in the near future. You just sold me a copy of your book.
I believe the game's still in diapers so i hope it's far away from completion.
If not, it will be a huge dissapoint.
I'm happy to hear the game has no set completion/release date, given many that do have a set date, often either have the date pushed back, or release on schedule with a bug ridden mess of shovel ware that rarely gets patched into a playable state without several months of wait time. (Or just get pretty much abandoned by devs after release to linger on in an unfinished state, I.E Windforge, Darkout, etc..)
I've only just scratched the surface of this game, but so far it's a very compelling experience and I'm looking forward to a hundred + hours of play, easy.
So I noticed that work has begun on steam integration, does this mean we may see an end to vanilla Rimworlds enhancements? Or will Rimworld simply evolve and continue updates through steam?
I love Rimworld massively. Its one of my top 5 games for sure but I am worried that low end game content (colonies that survive that far at least) will eventually bring a few bad apple reviews and that is the last thing I would ever want to see for this game.
The hype train that the steam community is will absolutely slingshot this games popularity. I can see it already, I just think the game could benefit from a few more events first at least.
Better to have many things that do the same thing for the story telling purposes than a few direct events that just get straight to what that event actually is. E.g. A raid to cause chaos/ steal resources/ destroy the colony - a raid to kill everyone.
I want to see Rimworld win steam, which I fully believe it will. Just needs that extra longevity in my opinion. :)
Tynan just wants to get the Steam Key interface working. He's burnt out on Rimworld itself at the moment which is why he's been fixing up the website and learning PHP instead. The Stream release is not actually imminent.
Yup. No steam in a long time. Only the workaround is being prepared. And even if: No, development would not stop.
love how people on this forum are saying no steam for a long time, but that is not what is being said on reddit....
[–]TynanSylvesterLead Developer 31 points 9 days ago
Likely before A12 actually.
Like it has been said, it will be done when it is done, witch may be a while. That being said, I have had so much fun with the game that Tynan could call the game done tomorrow and I would feel like i got my moneys worth.
My guess is the game will go on Steam, then A12 will come out with some features and bugfixes, and then the game will formally exit alpha. Afterwards Tynan will still develop updates but not at the same pace.
At the very least he's mentioned a long holiday coming late this summer.
I hope that's not true. I will be disappointed if new content stops coming. The game is good but still boring without mods. I think it needs more work on the vanilla.
Quote from: Axelios on June 20, 2015, 10:49:26 PM
I hope that's not true. I will be disappointed if new content stops coming. The game is good but still boring without mods. I think it needs more work on the vanilla.
Like I said, my
guess is that he will still develop, just not at the same pace or regularity. I didn't
speculate that new content would stop coming...
Quote from: akiceabear on June 20, 2015, 11:23:37 PM
Quote from: Axelios on June 20, 2015, 10:49:26 PM
I hope that's not true. I will be disappointed if new content stops coming. The game is good but still boring without mods. I think it needs more work on the vanilla.
Like I said, my guess is that he will still develop, just not at the same pace or regularity. I didn't speculate that new content would stop coming...
No, you didn't speculate that. I realised this awhile after posting my reply, but oh well. Putting aside implications of what you meant, and just making a general statement - I would be disappointed if new content stopped coming. There are some great mods that look like they make the game really good; but the quality of the game should become really good without needing the mods.
Quote from: Axelios on June 21, 2015, 03:04:15 AM
No, you didn't speculate that. I realised this awhile after posting my reply, but oh well. Putting aside implications of what you meant, and just making a general statement - I would be disappointed if new content stopped coming. There are some great mods that look like they make the game really good; but the quality of the game should become really good without needing the mods.
Just to clarify, I wasn't trying to be snarky above, just stating my position more clearly :)
I agree, and think that the game needs more work for vanilla to be considered a masterpiece - and it definitely has this potential.
That said, I think the overall game experience (mods + vanilla) could benefit from a more moderate pace of releases. I think the current average is every 2-3 months - what if it went to every 4-6 months? The the key mods would only need an update perhaps twice a year, making maintenance of some of the already amazing mods less daunting for volunteers. It is a bit of a shame to look back at the old mods that haven't made it to A10/11, some of which looked stellar.
The game is still in ALPHA! There's still Beta to go lol XD
Quote from: Tynan on May 29, 2015, 11:50:34 PM
I don't have a "final vision" for the game because I consider design to be an exploratory process. So I keep "lodestars" to guide and focus the design, but it's not about coloring in some predetermined set of lines in my head.
Some people like me and some of my friends prefer not to buy unfinished games. This is because we were burnt before paying for buggy stuff that never gets finished.
Many developers will make a milestone that they can call 1.0. It will have defined feature set will be tested enough and polished to support said feature set. Then people who value stability can go ahead and buy 1.0. But that does not mean that the development should stop. There can be 2.0 and 3.0 and so on afterwards. Take AI War from Arcen game for example. They are at version 8.0 now, several years later and still going.
From the above quote it looks like you will stop when it becomes unfeasible. That is, it sounds like release will mark The End, the death of the game. At this stage if you are an indie and not triple A some people would consider purchase unappealing. After all you finished not because it's perfect, but simply because you lost interest or money stopped trickling in.
With that in mind, it looks like people like me will miss out completely on the game (my loss, I know). I do not want to buy the game now, until it reached stability, but I'm as unlikely to buy it later, because well, there will be minimal chances for after release fixes, etc.
I'm wondering, would it make sense for you to slap a "release" label on stable enough build/state to reach the part of the audience I'm describing?
An important thing here for me would be that the game will then be reviewed as a "release" and I would be able to judge from these reviews how feature complete / stable it is.
Quote from: zespri on June 22, 2015, 05:21:08 AM
Many developers will make a milestone that they can call 1.0. It will have defined feature set will be tested enough and polished to support said feature set. Then people who value stability can go ahead and buy 1.0. But that does not mean that the development should stop. There can be 2.0 and 3.0 and so on afterwards. Take AI War from Arcen game for example. They are at version 8.0 now, several years later and still going.
In addition to stability of the modding environment, this is another reason going to 1.0 relatively soon shouldn't be seen as the offensive affront that some posters feel it would be.
Moreover, I'm pretty sure the game's current state meets a majority of the initial roadmap set out on Kickstarter - let's assume another alpha or two to round out those features to a quality one could reasonably expect for a development team of this scope. Anything on top of that is icing on the cake, but hardly obligated.
I personally wouldn't mind if the game was released, mods stabilized, and Tynan took a Paradox style DLC approach to determine what to add going forward. Although I imagine it would incense many here if that strategy was pursued.
go and listen to what tynan said at the end of the sappers release video, starting at the 17 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR9wqSyfSwQ
he feel the game is a pretty well rounded game, at this point.
Judge what he says for yourselves.
Quote from: zespri on June 22, 2015, 05:21:08 AMAfter all you finished not because it's perfect, but simply because you lost interest or money stopped trickling in.
"It's perfect" is not a healthy or reasonable standard to use to call a game finished. A game like this can always have more stuff added. If I set that as the standard, I would have no choice but to work on nothing but RimWorld continuously until my death. There is no way someone can expect me to uphold that standard or criticize me for literally not spending my entire life giving them extra free content.
Quotethere will be minimal chances for after release fixes
Not sure why you'd say that. Regardless of how much more content is added, I have every intention of supporting the game for a long time and making sure it's nice and bug-free when I do finally step away from it. This includes post-release fixes.
Quotewould it make sense for you to slap a "release" label on stable enough build/state to reach the part of the audience I'm describing?
An important thing here for me would be that the game will then be reviewed as a "release" and I would be able to judge from these reviews how feature complete / stable it is.
I was going to just call an upcoming build "release" and likely keep adding new content. The problem with this is what you wrote. As soon as the game is "released", everyone's going to review it then and there. I'm sure it'd do okay, but now I'm in a weird situation where I'm adding content to a game that will never get a proper evaluation, and putting resources in to fix problems that are still complained about in old reviews.
It doesn't make much sense for me to take a game to which I intend to add many more features - like this one - and call it "finished" early for no real reason. Kerbal was in alpha for like 5 years because they added content for 5 years. That's what alpha means - content is being added. So I'm choosing to stick with the definition of the word for now, and defer 1.0 until I'm pretty sure that I'm not adding substantial more stuff to the game.
Quote from: Tynan on June 22, 2015, 12:10:06 PM
It doesn't make much sense for me to take a game to which I intend to add many more features - like this one - and call it "finished" early for no real reason. Kerbal was in alpha for like 5 years because they added content for 5 years. That's what alpha means - content is being added. So I'm choosing to stick with the definition of the word for now, and defer 1.0 until I'm pretty sure that I'm not adding substantial more stuff to the game.
Big companies usualy have the other vision. Nice and stable enough = Release. Content to be added = DLC. Update graphics a bit = "GameName II". Leave all mechanic intact and change names, items and pictures to medieval = "GameName: Middle ages". ;)
Quote from: Tynan on June 22, 2015, 12:10:06 PM
"It's perfect" is not a healthy or reasonable standard to use to call a game finished.
Of course. I'm a software developer and I know this better than most. I did not mean for you to interpret this literally. Sorry, I could have been more clear. But that's a minor point. Thank you for your reply I appreciate it a lot. I'm sorry that you remained unconvinced, but hey, it's your game and your choice, I can respect that. Thank you again, for sharing your view.
Thanks. To clarify, I don't mean to announce anything about what I'm going to do. Just make a general statement on the principle of "when is it ok to call a game finished". I think the best standard is, "when you've fulfilled development promises", which I think I've pretty well covered at this point. I think I'll work a lot more on RimWorld anyway, though, because people like it, I like it, and it's profitable. I might need to take a break though.
Quote from: Tynan on June 22, 2015, 04:21:55 PM
Thanks. To clarify, I don't mean to announce anything about what I'm going to do. Just make a general statement on the principle of "when is it ok to call a game finished". I think the best standard is, "when you've fulfilled development promises", which I think I've pretty well covered at this point. I think I'll work a lot more on RimWorld anyway, though, because people like it, I like it, and it's profitable. I might need to take a break though.
Being office support/developer I also tend to promise(negotiate for) less, then give more than promised. Rather than promise more - give less.
I think we are in good hands...
you can tell T loves this game and has the dedication to back it up...the guy has a change log that he literally updates everyday. Hes always working lol
That being said- ill agree with an earlier post- I ALREADY got my moneys worth- the game is awesome and knowing it will get better and better is just icing on the cake
Quote from: akiceabear on May 30, 2015, 04:25:31 AM
QuoteFor me I see no immediate reason to end it. It still makes good money, I enjoy working on it and people enjoy playing it so why not continue?
This makes me happy :)
Awesome! I love the game and the fact that it's different with each release. A11 is a tough one but it requires that you learn new ways of building and surviving. That's what keeps it interesting. I hope you keep having fun with it and keep releasing new stuff :-)
Yea, Tynan is working everyday. It's almost weird! ;D
I though he want to have a little time for yourself and because it there is no updates, before i realised that there is another page of change log...
Lol.
Quote from: Spectre on May 29, 2015, 09:12:51 PM
I know this is a bit of a loaded question, and the usual answer is 'When it's done' however even the best developers have a time frame. I've seen this game turn from a murder simulator to a... more advanced murder simulator :)
The problem with a game like Rimworld is that you could just keep adding features forever in theory.
So how happy are you with the game in the state it is, and if Tynan ever graces me with his presence, how long do you think development will be? I'm not asking for a date, but months, years?
i guess your real question is when will the developers stop adding to the game because you said that they could keep on adding features
Quote from: Adamiks on July 23, 2015, 07:21:44 AM
Yea, Tynan is working everyday. It's almost weird! ;D
I though he want to have a little time for yourself and because it there is no updates, before i realised that there is another page of change log...
Lol.
Unless the secret is this... Tynan actually works only 3 hours a day. 4 hours if he's feeling up for it. The rest of the time he spends testing (playing the game), interacting with us plebeians in the forums, and enjoying life :D
Or the more extreme method..... Tynan does everything he needs to do for the week in the first 2 or 3 days. The rest of the week is spent testing (playing the game), interacting with us plebeians in the forums, and enjoying life :D
"Hail Tynan! We who are about to Rim, Salute you!"