I find it funny with research being a thing, that you can go from landing completely desolate, to building solar panels, automated AI controlled turrets, conduits, ect.
I know that tynan added wood, and other stuff to make it feel more basic at the start, but it really doesn't feel that way...here is bit of input on it.
First, perhaps making research a bit more complex, like needing materials to study, ect. Like reverse engineering a turret makes far more sense than just having someone sitting at a table, and suddenly understanding how to make a massive geothermal generator.
Second, more simple means of dealing with issues such as light, cooking, defense, with easier, but more tedious means... campfires are a good step, lanterns for light could also be nice, more traps, using certain items with wood for fuel (cook stove could use wood, right?) ect... That jump from wood age to modern is a bit jarring, and if the player had to spend a month at least to get a turret, then it could really lengthen the game, something people have been requesting anyway.
These are just a few thoughts, any other input is appreciated. I actually think this would fit incredibly well with animal husbandry. As for worries about raiders, I think it could make sense that, short of an occasional punk, a wood age settlement with nothing important wouldn't be worth raiding, compared to a base with electricity, light, heat / cooling, ect. And I myself like the idea of having a more "old west" feeling, but this doesn't last long, before your only way to advance needs electricity.
The only problem with that is that it would make Ice Sheets completely untenable again. There are already a number of mods that do just what you are talking about; I'm not sure how version compatible some of them are, but at least for now it's not viable for vanilla.
Would something like this be ideal? Yes, but there would have to be a few caveats and some clever engineering to make it work.
Lengthening the game for the sake of lengthening the game is not good. I really like the way most things currently are at the start of the game. I tried the overhaul modpack that includes Superior Crafting, and it just felt like it added duplicates of already existing content, like having to research the very basic things without which you can't do much at all. Might just as well start with that tech like right now you do. It's good to have mods that do overhauls of the gameplay, but in my opinion, the base game itself doesn't need this kind of an overhaul. I'd rather see content added to the late game rather than the early game.
I'm not opposed to the idea, just keep in mind that those people are not going through ages. They know technology, have the basic idea. Maybe they build it with too much ease rather than making simple tools, then fashioning better tools with them.
The only stuff this guy didn't make himself is his underwear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCKkHqlx9dE
What borsuk said is pretty much spot on. This isn't age of empires, we're not progressing through different technological era's. These are people with some previous knowledge in a sci-fi universe.
However I would still really like to see a lot more lower end tech/ and manufacturing in vanilla. The problem with most of that lower end tech is how you would balance it with higher tech. I do think its a little weird that we can just build a solar gen. and battery on day one. However adding a bunch of tiers in tech to be able to basically play the game in current state I think just adds a grind before you actually start playing the game.
I think we already have this somewhat, as there are a fair amount of people who don't really start playing the game until they get Stone cutting and Geothermal research done.
Has anyone ever built a campfire...? And if you did why? Within 5 mins of gametime you can have a house with power and heating and a cook stove, all the mats for this drop with you...
Consistency in quality of life tech unlocks would create more divergent early gameplay; wood/steel walls stink, but you can squat inside them awhile, especially in mountain or large hill starts. Likewise, not having a cooler is survivable with a small colony that actively works to get food (and in the cold biomes where food is actually scarce and needs to be stockpiled, it hardly matters).
Auto doors, turrets, and coolers are examples of quality of life devices, in that they remove burdens from colonists, but aren't strictly necessary for survival; techlocking them would lead to varying decisions, based on biome and start location, adding replay value.
Anyone wanting more depth to tech/research should install Superior Crafting and play around a bit. It makes for a different game, but not necessarily a better one. I personally like the longer struggle for the good stuff, but it does just kinda make you suffer through the crappy tech until you manage to get solar/batteries/cooling on line. I do like the manual turrets though, with autoturrets being a much later tech.
Overall the game is like being shipwrecked on an island. If you can find the materials, and you know how something is constructed, you can go ahead and build it. You might have to do some thinking on how to work with what you have though, which is what Rimworld research seems like to me. And for all we know everyone carries a sonic screwdriver in the future.
Yes I have built a campfire early in the game, with an outdoor table to sit at and eat. Was it necessary, no but it was fun.
I use campfires to protect my crops in the greenhouses from freezing. I prefer greenhouses over hydroponics.
Superior Crafting is too focused on minutia for my taste, though it has some great ideas. I'm OK with mechanics like cotton=cloth, because the game is abbreviated--- there are only 10 days in a month; mechanics like that are a summarization of tedium, something Tynan is fairly adept at balancing.
That said, there ought to be a bit more progression. People have made reasonable suggestions here and elsewhere in the forums about optional, luxury techs:
- Acclimitization research for most crops (depending on biome?).
- Techs that improve workbench speed or variety of goods produced, or increase the range of your grow lights, for additional power cost.
- Junction boxes/insulated wiring for powerlines.
- Timed/smart controllers that can reroute power away from production areas not being used, with a potential new use for AI cores.
*I didn't mean to turn this into a suggestion thread. My point is that a few more techs that are situationally useful would help replay and story building, and thus progression.
I meant just in terms of trying out the game with almost all tech being research gated and seeing how it effects play.
Superior Crafting sounds like something I should give a try.
I never used campfires for cooking, because I didn't know it was possible in this game until very recently. I'll be using this now. I've already used campfires for early heating on Ice Sheet, and to keep greenhouses from freezing.
I would balance earlier/simpler techs by making them have an efficient niche. For example boats in a Civilization-like game might be cheap, but only travel safely within 2 tiles from land. If I want to travel farther, I need to build more expensive ships.
Batteries are a good example of a tech that's not strictly required, but very nice to have at times. You may have several wind turbines, but sometimes they won't work.
In short, I would design simpler/early game techs like this: cheaper, effective but limited in scope. Later techs would add abilities. Electric Smelter is a late tech that unlocks smelting metal from items and slags, but is pointless early and not efficient compared to mining or even buying steel. More stuff like that. Nanobots bought from glitterworld, that let you construct stuff really fast (it constructs itself), but are very expensive and a waste if it's not an emergency. Nanonbot-powered self-cleaning floor, that has a base beauty of +1, cleans itself but requires power. Stuff like that is nice to have, but not a no-brainer because it puts some extra requirements on you. Maybe the self-cleaning floor doesn't work by actually cleaning, but prevents dirt from spawning, meaning you must power it at all times, not just toggle power every few days.
I've used camp fires quite a bit. Mostly when solarflares happen, and I am in a cold biome, and I don't want my devilstrand plants to die from the cold. And secondly, using it early in the game, to avoid using those precious metals, that I need for other things.
Back to topic, I too think there should be more researching in the game, but how much and in what way, I am not sure. As mentioned, some of the technologies should have researches. Maybe not long ones, but just some that makes you evaluate what you need to put resources into. Also adding a minor cost to it, I don't mind either.
I too would like a game with a far more in-depth tech tree and a longer tech tree with "eras" so to speak.
Also a game where investing in research was more complex than "have that one really smart guy do it in 1-2 days". Something that had to be managed because, as you progressed, it required a constant dedication of a significant portion of your colonists to progress.
However, this is pushing in the direction of a management game more akin to a crossover of DF and Civ (ie "BIG" and complex), while it seems Tynan wants to keep things a bit simpler and more focused on individuals and stories. Both types have their merits and are a *bit* mutually exclusive. I'm glad we have amazing mod support (really outstanding) so we can get both, or at least one or the other at one time here.
Yeah just repeating this notion, rimworld is a complete mix of ages, from stone age to the future, which is why we can create what we can and research it. Researching would more be using the tables resources to perfect it, as researched items are more complicated then the starting ones (Presumably).
Research sinks are on the way. One use alien artifacts.
The game just needs more content to fill it out. I always wanted players to have lots of options at any given moment, which is why I haven't added more tech barriers or hard progression. There just wasn't enough content to progress through without getting really niggardly with every little bit of content and irritatingly slowing down player progression and contracting options.
Since I think we're getting to the point where players have enough options to satisfy, I'm planning on adding some more 'development steps" in the next few alphas so there's more of a sense of progression.
Currently the thought is that for Alpha 13 (not 12) there will be an "electronics" resource which is needed for complex technical devices. It'll be really hard to get early game, costly but accessible mid-game, and in the endgame you'll be able to manufacture it yourself.
That's the idea for now, at least.
I also want to rethink exactly what research means. I mean, if someone joins who knows how to build a geothermal plant, why do you need to research it? There are a lot of logical issues with research IMO.
I've sort of viewed "researching" more as "drafting" or "planning". Like the colonists already know the theory of how to build it, but they need to draw it up before they actually start construction. Kind of like this doctor at some rural hospital that had a baby that needed dialysis, but the hospital had no dialysis machines that could handle a small infant. The doctor knew the basic underlying theory of how dialysis machines work, so he drafted up a plan for a dialysis machine out of stuff he had in his garage, got a welder to help him construct it, and ended up producing a dialysis machine so good the hospital continues to use it to this day. If that doctor had been sitting at a bench trying to invent a machine that helps people with failing kidneys then it would have probably taken years, but since he was just drawing up plans for a machine that he already knew of it only took a few days, kind of like the time it takes to research things in Rimworld.
Quote from: Tynan on July 30, 2015, 03:42:23 PM
The game just needs more content to fill it out. I always wanted players to have lots of options at any given moment, which is why I haven't added more tech barriers or hard progression. There just wasn't enough content to progress through without getting really niggardly with every little bit of content and irritatingly slowing down player progression and contracting options.
Since I think we're getting to the point where players have enough options to satisfy, I'm planning on adding some more 'development steps" in the next few alphas so there's more of a sense of progression.
Currently the thought is that for Alpha 13 (not 12) there will be an "electronics" resource which is needed for complex technical devices. It'll be really hard to get early game, costly but accessible mid-game, and in the endgame you'll be able to manufacture it yourself.
That's the idea for now, at least.
I also want to rethink exactly what research means. I mean, if someone joins who knows how to build a geothermal plant, why do you need to research it? There are a lot of logical issues with research IMO.
Excellent. I definitely like the electronics resource idea, it meshes with my own theory of how to improve the game:
There should be a tech/resource (electronics!) that is very hard to get or use in the early game and requires a decent amount of scientific progression to achieve. Before it is reached, communications with traders is non-existent. Once it is reached, then you are plugged into the futuristic economy and can start ordering more advanced parts and offering resources/loot/etc for money and more rapidly building up your tech from there (since you can always "just buy it" if you haven't the resources/tech to do it yourself).
So the game gets neatly divided into two parts:
1) pre-electronics, just trying to figure out how to survive with basic resources and technologies, reinventing the wheel sort of, most research is practical rather than theoretic in nature since everyone knows at a high school level at least how everything in this tech era works. Even if someone shows up who was a nuclear engineer, it's not like they can bang two uranium-rich rocks together and make you power. You start with your clothes and some sticks and attempt to get to a point where you can harvest silica (sandstone), copper, and plastics (oil would be a useful resource...), and where you have figured out the basics of electronic engineering.
2) post-electronics. Now you have access to all of future-modern society's goods. You can build an "internet station" and instantly learn whatever you need to know to use something. You can buy a "3d printing station" and pretty much make any part you need if you have the basic resources (steel, etc). Research is fairly simply just "googling it and watching the youtube videos on how to do it". Only really complex stuff, like building a nuclear reactor (example, not sure if ever planned to be included) would require more in-depth research. Basically, this works about as it works now, short and simple research projects without any clear "tree" or progression. "I want A/C", "okay, I googled it, we're good."
Note, you can make it optional (for players who want it easier) for loot drops to include electronic-bearing items that can be (early game) disassembled into parts and reassembled into a comms station, which would greatly shorten part 1.
Quote from: Songleaves on July 30, 2015, 04:40:51 PM
I've sort of viewed "researching" more as "drafting" or "planning". Like the colonists already know the theory of how to build it, but they need to draw it up before they actually start construction. Kind of like this doctor at some rural hospital that had a baby that needed dialysis, but the hospital had no dialysis machines that could handle a small infant. The doctor knew the basic underlying theory of how dialysis machines work, so he drafted up a plan for a dialysis machine out of stuff he had in his garage, got a welder to help him construct it, and ended up producing a dialysis machine so good the hospital continues to use it to this day. If that doctor had been sitting at a bench trying to invent a machine that helps people with failing kidneys then it would have probably taken years, but since he was just drawing up plans for a machine that he already knew of it only took a few days, kind of like the time it takes to research things in Rimworld.
Yes, me too, something like this. These guys know everything pretty much, but need to actually "reinvent the wheel" to build it since they probably never have the practical or design experience. I mean, I know how to use a power drill and certainly the basic mechanical and physical properties of how one works, but I couldn't just make you one from scratch in 1 day if you asked. I would need to actually take a lot of time in CAD to design the pieces from googled part specs, figure out the wiring, and fix the inevitable bugs before I could start pumping them out of a workshop or 3D printer or whatever. A common hand tool like that isn't just "common sense" to make even if you use it every day.
And if I didn't have Google, it would take months of trial and error. And if I didn't have a fancy 3D printer or computer, it would take longer still. Which is a way of saying a computer station should really help researching efficiency :)
Quote from: DNK on July 30, 2015, 03:17:32 PM
I too would like a game with a far more in-depth tech tree and a longer tech tree with "eras" so to speak.
Also a game where investing in research was more complex than "have that one really smart guy do it in 1-2 days". Something that had to be managed because, as you progressed, it required a constant dedication of a significant portion of your colonists to progress.
...
Eras is just totally asinine. Even "old" colonies don't exceed a generation. Colonies in play don't really last (though I'm sure there some player out thta has), 50+ years.
You'd still be going exceedingly, stupidly fast.
It doesn't have to be realistic to be good design. Be civil please.
There isn't a need for incremental building knowledge, which is what most research system tries to abstract. There are already spaceships, and AI Cores and all that stuff. There no need, beyond an attempt at a linear progression, for there to be a technology gating.
What stopped the romans from making steam engines, wasn't the lack of knowledge (it was in part but not arguably the largest part), but lack of infrastructure. They didnt have the tools or manufacturing capability to make the fine quality machined parts.
I would dash away with research, and just make it into industry chains that can build on each other. Which is far simpler thing to say then to do. This also do away with pawns having knowledges, and passing knowledges to groups and tracking knowledges between groups, and transfer of knowledge between groups, and group knowledge being passed to pawns.
But the for the crashed survivors, its not lack of knowledge that prevents from making space ship, its lack of industry to make the space ship. You can still have still batteries and solar panels and automated turrets be possible from the start as well. The start up scenario would just need to include those parts for them.
Yeah... I'm thinking a research project like 'Electronics' that allows you access to all the items requiring and containing electricity would be interesting, but that would leave people in the stone age until they get someone to research it and that would just be very inconvenient.
If we give the artists access to electronics, would they make Electronic Arts?
BA DUM TSH!
Maybe a simpler solution to this, which while doesn't hard limit tech. It also allows it to make more sense.
When you crash land, everything you build should be 'improvised'
The solar panels are made at an amateur level. Smaller, with bits of tape in areas. The energy they generate is impractical, and inconsistent.
Same with generators, batteries and so on.
Sure, these are technological people. They have seen this stuff before, but it's like if someone asked you to make a handheld torch. You have seen it, you have a basic understanding and with time and the right materials you may be able to cobble one together.
Improvised and cobbled together tech would defuse the whole "how the hell can they build a fully functional solar panel 4 times their size!" Argument.
Researching these things could work like a manual to the colonists 'research - improved solar panels'
Suddenly it's not "I guess it's some panel things with a battery" and it's "so yeah, some light sensors here that are connected to..."
Obviously it's a game and doesn't have to make perfect logical sense.
Some people don't like the whole upgrade system as they think it's boring. Personally, I love it, especially if it 'upgrades' the visual of a construction and provides new build options.
In this way you are providing realistic context for a crash landing bunch of strangers, and also not hard limiting what tech you can build, just how effective it is. :)
Quote from: Tynan on July 30, 2015, 03:42:23 PM
The game just needs more content to fill it out. I always wanted players to have lots of options at any given moment, which is why I haven't added more tech barriers or hard progression. There just wasn't enough content to progress through without getting really niggardly with every little bit of content and irritatingly slowing down player progression and contracting options.
Since I think we're getting to the point where players have enough options to satisfy, I'm planning on adding some more 'development steps" in the next few alphas so there's more of a sense of progression.
Currently the thought is that for Alpha 13 (not 12) there will be an "electronics" resource which is needed for complex technical devices. It'll be really hard to get early game, costly but accessible mid-game, and in the endgame you'll be able to manufacture it yourself.
That's the idea for now, at least.
I also want to rethink exactly what research means. I mean, if someone joins who knows how to build a geothermal plant, why do you need to research it? There are a lot of logical issues with research IMO.
I've actually been lurking on these boards for quite a while, but I had actually had a burst of activity when I first joined, including my first post (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=2003.msg18533#msg18533) which talked about having many of the more complex technological items require an example piece (even non-functional) in order to determine how to make new pieces. It also used an abstract resource similar to Tynan's "electronics" resource called "parts".
I think the key to this whole gated access thing is that it may not be so much a question of understanding the technologies at work, but instead having the manufacturing capabilities to put that knowledge to use. I would say that you would need to create variations on the crafting tables that allow for greater and greater precision and functionality, from hand tools to power tools to machine tools and beyond. You shouldn't be able to start the game with the ability to create a 3D printer or a CNC machine, but those might be things that can be unlocked through research or some kind of "tinkering" activity on a proto-crafting table.
Ooh, evil thought - back when I've refined it some...
Quote from: MrWiggles on July 30, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
There isn't a need for incremental building knowledge, which is what most research system tries to abstract. There are already spaceships, and AI Cores and all that stuff. There no need, beyond an attempt at a linear progression, for there to be a technology gating.
Perhaps you didn't read my other responses. I agree mostly and said as much. ONCE the colony has access to the internet and 3D printers and such, there's no reason they can't build just about anything after a single research step. The only purpose of having additional depth then is for "advanced" builds (more efficiency, larger, etc). I mean, I wouldn't personally start off my A/C needs by building a 25,000BTU industrial unit, but probably a 2,500BTU window unit, then scale up. Or I'd get a generic plan for X and then start tinkering with it to adapt it to my particular environment/needs, which would be "research".
However, you also still need to dedicate a significant amount of time to researching a given industrial process before you can start doing it yourself, even with the internet. Just requiring the player to "build a forge" "build a more advanced forge", etc, is missing a key part of the progress equation: brainpower to get it to all work and figure out what's needed for the next step. Some of it is obvious scaling up, some of it your average person today couldn't figure out without online/expert assistance.
But first you need to get to the point where you can connect to the internet, which probably will require first being able to call someone and ask to buy a modem/computer with some refined gold or whatever. That requires building up to basic electronics. There's two ways to go about that:
1) assume you have to literally build up from scratch.
2) assume you can scavenge parts from crashed ships/etc and figure a way out to make a communication system from that.
#1 would lead to your approach: progressively building up an industrial base capable of creating basic electronics. #2 would just require you to research "transistor radio" or something and scavenging the rest.
Currently the game and Tynan seem to be leaning towards not-our-approach ;), so #2 would be more likely to be implemented. However, I'd love mods to offer a more in-depth "up from basics" approach.
Also I think the Romans were constrained far more by knowledge than you're claiming, but that's a bit too tangential to muck up the thread with.
Quote from: Elixiar on July 31, 2015, 08:43:08 AM
Maybe a simpler solution to this, which while doesn't hard limit tech. It also allows it to make more sense.
When you crash land, everything you build should be 'improvised'
[snip]
Yes, I like this approach also, and it probably fits in more with the direction Tynan wants the game to go in.
Ultimately, what I think a lot of those of us who like more depth are really wanting is *hard choices*, or at least not-totally-insignificant choices. Currently, choosing what to research is just a question of "what do I want to build tomorrow?" You aren't being challenged at all to adapt yourself to your situation, to actually plan a research path or deliberate alternative research directions, where the tradeoffs of labor spent on R&D need to be balanced with the expected rewards of the "15% better A/C unit".
I like problem-solving. R&D currently presents no additional problems. It could, however.
"My colony is far from a good iron resource, yet I am now bottlenecked by iron deficiency. Is it better to use my researching pawn for hauling, or is it better to use him to R&D a more efficient mining method that results in +15% metal per unit ore, or is it better to use him to R&D a +10% faster wheelbarrow, each of which will take X days/weeks of time for him to complete?"
Those are the sorts of problems I like, and the sort that require fine balancing and really make a game more fun.
They're also the sorts of problems casual gamers can just ignore, because you don't ever NEED a 10% faster wheelbarrow, so this still works with the current approach of the developer.
I have refined the evil thought into this - modular crafting table system:
Basically, you would start with a manual activity table that's only 1x2 or 1x3, and then you build adjacent modules that decrease crafting time, increase quality, improve material efficiency, or possibly automate processes. Set the initial table down and then select an additional panel to build. Each panel would have one cell that is just the overlapping link to the original table and then one or two cells that show the added functions. The pawn would build the original table as normal, but each additional panel would be built at a slower pace the first time it's built, with the rate based on the pawn's Construction, Crafting, and Research skills, as they "tinker" their way to building the new components. Once the first example is built (or a kit is bought from a trader or recovered in the field), later examples would be built at regular Construction rates.
Personally I'd prefer if the game would stay away from long research tech trees. Because we can currently only research 1 item at a time it basically puts in a arbitrary time limit as to what and how you can build and progress. I'd really like to see a system more along the lines of production chains limiting the higher tech. and then maybe the necessity of valuable materials or maybe blue prints which would primarily be acquired by traders or maybe an upgraded faction system.
The primary reason is because currently almost all of my games start out with the first several months of my top priority researcher hammering out the tech just to get it out of the way. The fact that research is a specific skill and for all practical purposes you only need/want 1 researcher makes it to me feel out of place and I think the concept of acquiring blue prints or resources would be more believable.
Menuhin raises an interesting point.
Maybe something along the lines of how the command and conquer games allow progression. Having to build a machine or device, (doesn't have to do anything by itself, or can offer an AoE bonus or minor stat improvement speed or something) Which then opens up new construction options. On the side of that, it also unlocks 'new research projects'.
This way it wouldn't feel mundane to just sit a colonist in front of a bench, but wouldn't over write it either as I quite like to build a nice room for the research table. Gives older or more useless colonists something to do as well.
Example: build tool cabinet. - research unlocked 'pneumatic drills'.
Building bonus: Construction and deconstructing work speed increased by 5%.
Can now build: Dining Chair, Armchair, Double Bed
Doesn't have to be that exactly but you get the idea.
Why not make research optional, by letting you buy schematics and textbooks and whatnot from passing trade ships. No need to reinvent the wheel, after all, and the basics should be in the databanks of any passing ship. Then, once you've researched or acquired all the preset techs, you could have your researcher work on refinements to your techniques. A high level researcher (level 16+, perhaps?) could make discoveries that could provide some incremental boost, like faster repair speeds or greater hauling ability. These discoveries could be sold to a trader, making it possible to build a research colony, instead of needing to make art or sell scraps from raids for money.
That is something I would like to see, research being more optional. Though I'm not sure a research colony could ever really be viable as research would in general need to be flushed out, and you will likely eventually run out of research.
But the main point I was trying to make with moving away from research is that currently progression is tied to 1 person. The reason I'd rather see progression tied behind either production chains, or barriers by cost from a merchant is that it allows you to have multiple people working towards progression or a "next tier." Multiple people can be working to save up money to buy a schematic while only 1 person can research. Multiple people can work on a production chain while only 1 person can research.
I think not building a ton of barriers in research, and in general moving away from research allows for more variety in the way we can play.
Quote from: Menuhin on August 06, 2015, 10:04:35 AM
That is something I would like to see, research being more optional. Though I'm not sure a research colony could ever really be viable as research would in general need to be flushed out, and you will likely eventually run out of research.
That's why I suggested that there be random-ish generic discoveries after you've researched all the preset techs in the list. Think of how future tech works in the Civilization games, once you've filled out the tech tree.
Maybe it could be possible for other factions to gain access to discoveries you've sold, so you would have to think about if you really want the silver from selling a boost to mortar accuracy, for example. (Obviously, you wouldn't loose access to the discoveries you've made when you sell them, so giving hostile AIs access to the ones you've sold could help balance that, or at least make you think about what to sell. If this is in place, perhaps the military boosts could be far more valuable as well.)
You know multiple researchers working at multiple benches researches faster yeah? I've hammered out important projects overnight by getting the whole colony to work on it.