So, we have all of these hand-to-hand weapons, but no way to defend ourselves.
In reality, essentially every hand-weapon in the game was usually used with some sort of shield. Leather-covered wicker (for Neolithic timeframes), wooden-plank roundshields (for Medieval-timeframes). Hell, even a plasteel "riot shield" would be useful for a ship-based boarding party.
This is because melee weapons are essentially useless, both in combat with a ranged-weapon user, and in melee with another character. Now, yes, a shield won't stop a bullet, but they will have a chance to turn aside arrows and spears, and of course turn aside melee weapons.
Maybe base it off of the "melee" skill?
Quote from: Boston on August 05, 2015, 04:28:42 PM
So, we have all of these hand-to-hand weapons, but no way to defend ourselves.
In reality, essentially every hand-weapon in the game was usually used with some sort of shield. Leather-covered wicker (for Neolithic timeframes), wooden-plank roundshields (for Medieval-timeframes). Hell, even a plasteel "riot shield" would be useful for a ship-based boarding party.
This is because melee weapons are essentially useless, both in combat with a ranged-weapon user, and in melee with another character. Now, yes, a shield won't stop a bullet, but they will have a chance to turn aside arrows and spears, and of course turn aside melee weapons.
Maybe base it off of the "melee" skill?
I think shields would make me hate how melee works less.
Riot shields should provide some cover from bullets, too. But only riot shields, and only some cover.
Pretty much, right now with two opponents armed with melee weapons, they just slap moronically at each other until someone dies. Also, there is little difference between melee weapons, with the exception of "damage types".
In reality, "damage type" and "weapon reach" could have profound effect on how melee combat works, and how effective shields are. Let us, for example, look at the in-game "spear". Most hand-wielded spears throughout history have traditionally been longer than the wielder is tall, usually about 7 feet. That gives the spear-wielder a good 4-5 feet of reach over someone with a club. They also would be sharp enough to punch right through a wicker shield with a good-enough hit. However, wielded one-handed, they are rather "obvious" and easy to deflect. So, your opponent knocks aside your spearthrust, and steps in with a club.
Now, clubs (and their later cousins, maces and warhammers) are actually rather nasty weapons, as they will direct the force of a blow straight through armor. They are also relatively quick, making them more difficult to block. However, someone with a spear will be able to keep you at bay, due to their longer reach.
So, once your opponent gets up close, they drop the club and draw a knife. Knives and such are really fast, but have basically no reach. They are little more than "emergency weapons" in a real fight.
Yadda yadda yadda
So, in-game, we should have two "characteristics" and three "damage types"
-Characteristics:
--Reach: essentially, from how far away you can use the weapon effectively. Any closer, and the weapon deals much reduced damage, or suffers from a lower chance to hit, much like ranged weapons
"long" range: spear
"Medium" range: longsword, club, mace
"short" range: gladius, knife/shiv, fist
--Cooldown: how much time it takes to "wind up" and use the weapon. This already is in-game, but should be a little more "exaggerated", to draw attention to the difference in weapons.
-Damage
--Sharp: weapons made for slicing and slashing (longsword, scyther blade, power claw). Cause a lot of bleeding, and can easily cut or sever limbs, but armor is more effective against all attacks
-Stabbing: weapons made for stabbing deep into the body (spears, gladius, knife/shiv, arrows, javelin) . Cause severe internal wounds, and penetrate armor with a "good" blow.
--Blunt: weapons used to crush and smash, dealing damage through force (club, mace, fist). Effectively ignores armor, and can cause damage to bones and such, but don't cause much bleeding.
If these stats look like they make "blunt" and "stabbing" weapons more "effective" than "slashing" weapons, this is because overwhelmingly throughout history, most weapons have either been stabbing or blunt weapons. Slashing weapons, as in SWORDS, were pretty much relegated to "showing off how rich you were", and were treated like the modern handgun: back-up for the "rifle" (like a sword to a spear.)
So, what would this all mean? Giving "neolithic" tribes the ability to use shields (and therefore, your colonists), would make melee combat much more effective. Give your "melee-specced" colonist a spear and a shield, and they could feasibly go "all 300" defending a pass between two mountains, as opposed to just standing there getting stabbed, smacked, and stuffed full of arrows.
Maybe give spears and other weapons with reach a knockback effect, as they won't start charging to attack until the enemy is in range, and by the time the attack gets off, they are probably already standing next to your spear wielder. That, or give them the ability to step backward while charging the attack, to keep the enemy in the optimal range band, or extend the "charge attack" radius out past the weapon range, so your colonist can attack as soon as the enemy enters into range.
they alredy have them i dont know how far any of you have goten in the game but thats alredy in the game sorry to pop your buble not riot but still in the game
well i dunno... first i was gonna reply "best defense against a sword is a sniper rifle and 1km distance"
but then i remembered how many times i lost not one but two guys to one single enemy with strong shield and strong sword
the only thing to do here is to run away if they get too close... but on top of having strong shield and strong sword they also seem to run twice as fast as my guys :P
in the end it is possible to kill them with kiting them around and if some1 else (a turret maybe) is shooting them...
but enemy brawlers do seem indeed quite hard.
i wonder if armor jackets helps against melee weapons?
Quote from: pigman999999999 on August 07, 2015, 06:13:14 PM
they alredy have them i dont know how far any of you have goten in the game but thats alredy in the game sorry to pop your buble not riot but still in the game
There are shields that help defend against melee weapons? That's news to me. I thought there was just the force field shield, that only protects colonists against ranged attacks.
Quote from: Jorlem on August 07, 2015, 07:11:24 PM- Snippets from Jorlem-
What he is talking about are the shields the melee personal use. He must have either not read correctly (no offense).
yea they aret melee but come on the only time your going to use that a melee one you would be hiting a evil ship and even then no use the ones we have now are fine they kept my guy from being killed by a sniper and a morter
Quote from: pigman999999999 on August 08, 2015, 01:18:41 PM
yea they aret melee but come on the only time your going to use that a melee one you would be hiting a evil ship and even then no use the ones we have now are fine they kept my guy from being killed by a sniper and a morter
Shields would give melee combat a hell of a boost.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhpqAGdZPc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkhpqAGdZPc
And, no, the "energy shields" we have in-game are NOT fine, because they aren't what I am looking for.
YES +1
I have an early concept for medieval shields in my defence mods thread. Woukd welcome feedback but is just a concept right now.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=14135.0
Forgive me for hijacking this thread, but are Brawler colonists noticeably better than others in melee ? I don't think so. They are getting their asses handed to them, I attack a sniper using plasteel knife and he knocks me down with puches. Brawler is a far cry from Triggerhappy and Careful Shooter.
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I could see a place for classic pre-gunpowder shields. Yes, make them very ineffective at stopping bullets, and the bonus wouldn't stack with any form of cover. They would be more about flavor. They would help distinguish melee pirates from melee tribals. Pirates would only use personal shields, because they come from a high tech culture and they worry the most about getting shot. Tribals would come with classic shields, because in their clan wars enemies they face have very ineffective ranged weapons.
So those classic shields would be only marginal help against guns, not worth crafting. They would also sell for little, mostly as wall decorations. But they would be an interesting counter to melee enemies, like pirates. A specialized tool for melee colonists against melee enemies.
Quote from: b0rsuk on August 10, 2015, 03:03:21 PM
Forgive me for hijacking this thread, but are Brawler colonists noticeably better than others in melee ? I don't think so. They are getting their asses handed to them, I attack a sniper using plasteel knife and he knocks me down with puches. Brawler is a far cry from Triggerhappy and Careful Shooter.
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I could see a place for classic pre-gunpowder shields. Yes, make them very ineffective at stopping bullets, and the bonus wouldn't stack with any form of cover. They would be more about flavor. They would help distinguish melee pirates from melee tribals. Pirates would only use personal shields, because they come from a high tech culture and they worry the most about getting shot. Tribals would come with classic shields, because in their clan wars enemies they face have very ineffective ranged weapons.
So those classic shields would be only marginal help against guns, not worth crafting. They would also sell for little, mostly as wall decorations. But they would be an interesting counter to melee enemies, like pirates. A specialized tool for melee colonists against melee enemies.
An arrow or a javelin will punch straight through a wooden shield, much less a wicker one. Shields are used to defend against MELEE weapons, not ranged ones. Against ranged weapons, you take cover
https://youtu.be/VsZnTCQptWc?t=216
Quote from: Boston on August 10, 2015, 04:11:09 PM
An arrow or a javelin will punch straight through a wooden shield, much less a wicker one. Shields are used to defend against MELEE weapons, not ranged ones. Against ranged weapons, you take cover
https://youtu.be/VsZnTCQptWc?t=216
A javelin - sure, possible. I mean Leonidas, a king of Sparta, had his armor perforated by javelin from behind. Likely while running away.
But an arrow ? How do you explain the existence of testudo formation ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation
QuoteIn the testudo formation, the men would align their shields to form a packed formation covered with shields on the front and top. The first row of men, possibly excluding the men on the flanks, would hold their shields from about the height of their shins to their eyes, so as to cover the formation's front. The shields would be held in such a way that they presented a shield wall to all sides. The men in the back ranks would place their shields over their heads to protect the formation from above, balancing the shields on their helmets, overlapping them. If necessary, the legionaries on the sides and rear of the formation could stand sideways or backwards with shields held as the front rows, so as to protect the formation's sides and rear; this made the formation slow and they covered very little ground.
(http://www.followingthetrend.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Wenceslas_Hollar_-_A_testudo.jpg)
An arrow will punch through a plain wooden shield, if it hits "dead on". If it hits on a glancing angle (like, say; someone sees the arrow in flight (not impossible), or sees the archer take aim at them, and moves to avoid it), it will probably bounce off.
Against a shield covered in linen or rawhide, an arrow will either 1) stick in, and not do too much damage, or 2) bounce off. Roman scuta were made of 3 different thicknesses of wood, laminated together with canvas and leather, plus being curved. That curved surface + construction + method of holding (in an overlapping pattern, aka not flat) made it easier for arrows and other missile weapons to be deflected.
Watch some more of the video I posted above. You can see the arrow NOPE its way through the plain shield, but against the rawhide-faced one, it doesn't do all that much.
You have to remember, however, that linen-and-rawhide-faced shields were HEAVY. They were usually used in a "passive" fashion: shieldwall (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_wall), testudo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testudo_formation), phalanx (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phalanx), where the weight of your shield was partially held up by the guy next to you, and wasn't really used to defend yourself, but more to "push" against the enemies shield. Plain wooden or wicker shields, however, were much lighter, and could be used to defend yourself more "actively". Also, when used in "1vs1" combat, the shield was as much a second weapon as it was for defense.