Hi Tynan,
Let me get it out of my chest, the first time I played your game was a pirated version. But, after testing it went on to buy the game.
Now, you might have a lot of questions and also you might be mad which I totally understand.
Why did I download the pirated game you might ask. Well,
Because I'm sick and tired of game companies making false claims over current state of their games, future vision for the final product and outright lying on proposed features.
I can give you many examples of this but name calling is not my thing but I think you know a few yourself.
I loved your game, after I think some 2 hours of play testing it did not crash, it ran smoothly, had plenty of good features already implemented.
All in all I was impressed how professional the beta for your game was, how open your selling page was about it and how positive the game forums were. After which I proceded to buy it.
With Early access these days you are asking your customers to have good will in you and take a huge leap of faith but I did not know you and this is your first game so you have no rep sheet I could look towards which will help me make a informed decision and if this game was launched two years back I would have taken the leap of faith but not anymore I've been disappointed far too many times.
I'm a pretty intelligent guy and it hurts my ego when I get duped of my money just because I have a very very soft side for indie PC games. So now whenever I like an early access I try it out first and then only if I feel the game is up to the task and not out to dupe you for your money I buy the game and get involved in the process.
These are the reasons I downloaded a pirated copy. And I'm sorry to say but I think this how most people are buying their games these days.
Also, now that I do know your work and you have gained my trust you can be rest assured that I will fully support your next project no pirating.
This is not a guilt rant. I'm not justifying anything I was compelled to write this because I remember vaguely that on the torrents comment you had a comment telling how hard and long you worked on this. Also you are one swell guy. You have made an amazing game and I haven't had this much fun and satisfaction from a beta game in years, looking forward to how this turns out finally.
Good luck Tynan
Well thanks for actually buying it! I always knew people would pirate the game, but it was pretty saddening to see it actually happening. Anyway, it's part of doing business these days so at this point I just accept it. But anyway, good on you to come and buy the game properly.
These things are very long and hard to make - I actually made 5 or 6 completely different games in prototype before starting RimWorld; this was the only one that worked well enough to become a real game :D
I can understand this my self as I did the same thing then bought it as for the same reasons most kickstarter games don't make it or just don't delivers as whell I look into tynans job with bioshock infinite and saw that he worked on the lvl desing and stuff after that I had bought the game for 30usd
am I sad that I did it ? no to do so menny things on kickstarted that just don't make it or never come out I had to see for my self and make a imformd decision on wat I can sepend my low imcome on and I fell in love with it and that's y I backed it
ps just outa bed no coffey yet
Well, ever since the NFS Rivals, I stopped having any second thoughts for fireproofing my purchases with pirated quick-looks. Oh, I could read horribly biased reviews, I could try out well-crafted and cut demo, and I would never know the game would treat me like idiot with no menu, unskippable tutorials and not to mention the game locked to 30FPS with physics bugging out after unlocking it to 60. But thanks to the pirate, I was able to alt+f4 the game after a hour of testing (and that STILL did not let me play any of it) and threw it away with disgust. Better that than to throw away 60$. And only wish I was smart enough to pirate Dragon Age 2, Supreme Commander 2 or DmC before buying it.
And with all due respect to Tynan - and respect is due - Kickstarter and Steam Greenlight are even more horrible platforms. There are no guarantees, no refunds and stories like WarZ and Garry's Incident - where devs not only openly lie about the game and release it in unplayable form, but also openly try to censor any negative feedback describing the problems with the game. So yeah, as players, how are we to trust devs - on what grounds? What incentive is there for devs to even care about their finished products? On Greenlight they can keep the game in dev forever, not caring about the bugs and comfortably sitting behind "it's an early access" shield - while still making money off of their unfinished and buggy product. With triple A, there is at least that buffer - you get paid only AFTER you release the game and your pay WILL depend on it's state. And in that case we're looking even better with recent cause of shareholders vs EA on BF4. It looks better and better for gamers with triple A's - hell, we're at a point where a company was sued for releasing unfinished, unplayable product and selling it.
But that's not the case with early access. Especially with small devs being able to lie their way away to glory and money and Google turning youtube into a digital reincarnation of Hitler, we're looking at a field riddled with lack of laws and huge amount of censorship. Making an educated decision is nigh impossible.
And it doesn't take liars and swindlers for it to be a nightmare for customers. Even sincere, honest and hard working devs are making tons of stupid mistakes when it comes to early access and greenlight. Something I'm going to look at closely with RimWorld and fall on Tynan like a ton of bricks if need be. Descriptions and plans for these games are more often than not non-existent, with things like "we wil change a lot" or "trust us, we have a plan" being a supplementation for a sincere breakdown. This is not useful nor fair to the customer, and makes an educated choice impossible - as you simply disallow any education to be there. It's not that big of a deal with kickstarters - because obviously, at kickstarter the game is in that early version, where plans change and ideas arise. But that is over when you start selling the product instead of asking for a fund. You need a reliable, informative description of what games is and what it will be, what is worked on and why and so on. And we almost never get that, instead being burred under almost philosophical nonsense about dreams and imaginations.
Well, that turned out to be quite a rant.
Quote from: Tynan on January 19, 2014, 12:17:52 AM
Well thanks for actually buying it! I always knew people would pirate the game, but it was pretty saddening to see it actually happening. Anyway, it's part of doing business these days so at this point I just accept it. But anyway, good on you to come and buy the game properly.
These things are very long and hard to make - I actually made 5 or 6 completely different games in prototype before starting RimWorld; this was the only one that worked well enough to become a real game :D
As long as you make a good solid game you have nothing to worry about as pirates that enjoy your game will buy it, well most of them. Curious (not full on pirates) like the OP will try the game and if they think its awesome they will buy it. Many will download your game try it and not like it, these are the people that would normally be asking for refunds, so this is actually a good thing for you as you don't have to waste time sending refunds out to more then you might normally.
We all hate wasting money lets be honest, and with many developers now days tricking people, some balance is in needed.
You have to realize many pirates that download things wouldn't buy any ways, typically, unless its something epic like your game. In fact the pirated version floating around will probably help sales. If I was a game dev I wouldn't worry about piracy or protection, because you know what? No matter how much you spend or how baddass you think your anti-piracy is, you know they will crack it, so why waste resources?
Focus on the game at hand & make it epic, interact with the community & watch sales rise!
eagle
"You have to realize many pirates... wouldn't buy (it) any ways..."
This is actually a very good point.
The media has effectively synonymized pirating with thievery. The distinction is pretty significant. But I'm not about to get into all of that. Let it suffice that when one steals, tangible resources are lost--a potential sale which could have gone to a paying customer. In the digital world: nothing is lost. It's comparable far more effectively to copying. People argue that the developers time and energy isn't compensated for. But this begs the question: how would $50 compensate a developer of his time and energy? That investment on the part of the artist is divided into thousands if not millions of segments. Which we then satisfy through our individual purchases.
The individuals who are pirating, wouldn't have bought the game, so they wouldn't have made their contribution anyways. But! If they like it enough, they will reconsider. And I've heard of plenty of instances of this happening.
Ozymandias - this would be the case, if there was only one pirate on the earth who pirates a game he would otherwise buy ;) But this is not the case, and - let's say it out loud and face it - noone really know how many purchases are lost or gained due to piracy. There is simply no reliable way to measure that.
Saying that "nothing tangible is lost so nothing is lost" is but a demagogy. As is analyzing a global problem in micro scale.
I wish it would be so simple. I know of many people who do the same as I - use piracy as a extended demo, and often buy the games they dislike, because they clocked over that magical barrier where you really should pay for it. But it's not like that, and saying that you know for sure what pirates do is simply a lie.
"Ozymandias - this would be the case, if there was only one pirate on the earth who pirates a game he would otherwise buy ;) But this is not the case, and - let's say it out loud and face it - noone really know how many purchases are lost or gained due to piracy. There is simply no reliable way to measure that."
I'm having some difficulty understanding this and also understanding how this is relevant to what I said.
But people have studied this matter extensively. Considering that many very large corporations are losing a considerable amount of money due to this, I bet they've studied it more than we will ever know.
But I found this: http://www.dailytech.com/Nearly+Half+of+Americans+Pirate+Casually+But+Pirates+Purchase+More+Legal+Content/article29702.htm
"Saying that "nothing tangible is lost so nothing is lost" is but a demagogy. As is analyzing a global problem in micro scale."
Calling that statement demagogy is an escape tactic. Try criticizing what I've actually said, versus passing it off as an appeal to an audience which I do not possess. Considering pirates are actually in the minority, and have absolutely no credit to their name, I'm trying to figure out how that statement of yours made any sense whatsoever.
"I wish it would be so simple. I know of many people who do the same as I - use piracy as a extended demo, and often buy the games they dislike, because they clocked over that magical barrier where you really should pay for it. But it's not like that, and saying that you know for sure what pirates do is simply a lie."
I've made no absolute statements. We're speaking of social trends, there's nothing absolute about this conversation. The fact is, if they were willing to pay for the game, why would they pirate it? Kind of self-explanatory. You believe that if the option didn't exist for them to steal it, then they would be forced to pay for it and they would pay for it. But that's assuming that these people have the money to pay for it in the first place, and sufficient desire for the game.
Quote from: Ozymandias on January 19, 2014, 03:09:06 PMCalling that statement demagogy is an escape tactic. Try criticizing what I've actually said
As you wish.
Quote from: Ozymandias on January 19, 2014, 01:39:02 PMIn the digital world: nothing is lost.
Argumentum ad ignorantiam. This statement considers only a physical things to be of any value because value of non-physical things cannot be clearly quantified. It's a very case of "jews rule the world" - because as long as we work on metaphysical values and abstracts, you can just ignore Occam's Razor to build up explanations to any counter-argument presented.
QuoteBut I found this: http://www.dailytech.com/Nearly+Half+of+Americans+Pirate+Casually+But+Pirates+Purchase+More+Legal+Content/article29702.htm
An overview of a work. It's rather meaningless for either of us, as it not only does not provide any hard data, nor does it provide information about method of gathering of these information nor provides any insight into neither of the sub-groups we're talking about. As it is, it's as valuable as "my friend's dad said that his uncle heard". It's a generalization - as I've pointed out before.
QuoteI've made no absolute statements
"The individuals who are pirating, wouldn't have bought the game, so they wouldn't have made their contribution anyways."
QuoteThe fact is, if they were willing to pay for the game, why would they pirate it? Kind of self-explanatory.
Divine fallacy. It's not a fact. It's your opinion, and - in my opinion - naivety. I would ask the opposite question - if they can pirate the game, why would they pay for it?
QuoteBut that's assuming that these people have the money to pay for it in the first place, and sufficient desire for the game.
Fallacy of composition. The fact, that some people pirate because they can't afford and thus would not contribute does not mean that pirates in general would not contribute.
I think this thread deserves to go in a more positive direction.
I'm not ashamed to admit pirating some games, including this one.
With so many games now a day's fighting over players. And "early access" taking over demos I personally feel I am not committing any crime by getting a good look at a game before I throw precious money at it.
I found it absolutely worth the price and forked over the lowest tier price. (I believe it was called "influencer" but I can't seem to find it anymore.) Then noticing I misread and wasn't getting my legal copy for a while. I actually went out of my way to ask Tynan for an upgrade of my tier.
This is where karma really shines bright. I was simply given the higher tier with a note to "send the $10 sometime".
I was completely shocked at this and immediately got to it of course. But the trust shown by Tynan to a complete stranger that simply wants to enjoy a video game he is making is...amazing. I nearly wanted to actually write a full letter of gratitude and mail it. But i figured it would get lost among the piles of other fan-mail he must be getting!
YouTube let me discover this game. Piracy let me try it out. Tynan gave me the experience of feeling appreciated by a developer instead of the other way around. And I wouldn't want that to have happened any other way!
Quote from: Nocebo on January 19, 2014, 03:58:22 PM
This is where karma really shines bright. I was simply given the higher tier with a note to "send the $10 sometime".
I was completely shocked at this and immediately got to it of course. But the trust shown by Tynan to a complete stranger that simply wants to enjoy a video game he is making is...amazing.
Wow,
this made me cry with joy, so good to know that there are still some dev's who treat people as people and not just a number in the bank.
I'm really glad that I'm a part of this community and got to share this awesome game. Most of my friends also now own RimWorld just because of my word of mouth no piracy involved.
I recently played this with my friends watching, we named the survivors after each friend and everyone got so attached to their on screen character one of the girls felt so sad when her character died trying to save a fellow survivor in ongoing crossfire between my outnumbered and poorly equipped survivors and those evil raiders. Later we gave her a special burial with her own resting place.
This game is so awesome and the stories that come out of it are just wonderful.
I believe that is where this game shines.
You aren't given an arbitrary story that you follow to a predetermined conclusion, but rather you make the story and it follows where you take it. :)
Quote from: ItchyFlea on January 20, 2014, 07:46:25 AM
I believe that is where this game shines.
You aren't given an arbitrary story that you follow to a predetermined conclusion, but rather you make the story and it follows where you take it. :)
It was great to see that this concept actually worked, even with so little content. Imagine how it'll be in a year or two when there are really a ton of different things that can happen. I'm stoked for it.
I personally never pirate ever like i can't even get on netflix or spotify they feel to much like pirating to me and beileve that if the game is worth playing or the music listening to or the movie watched then the artist, directer, game maker all deserve my money
I pirated this game's pre-alpha release that you see in youtube before I backed it up in kickstarter.
newer pirated versions of it are still there and i couldve just pirated it all the way like i did on the others, but instead I contributed. Maybe because I like it very much, even I dont know why.
my point is "online piracy" is not that evil as others may think it seems because this time, trust is the the most valued commodity and some people are not as gullible as they are was before.
Many of us are fed up with false promises so we pirate things. I may be justifying my own actions in this. In the end, majority of people who pirate software do not have the intention of buying them in the first place... and if they liked that software, well. you have a potential buyer.
I also pirated the game a couple of months ago to take a quick look at it. I played it for 15 minutes and thought it was awesome.
I still haven't bought it and won't until it's on Steam. I have been refreshing the SteamDB everyday hoping to see this pop up, but it's just dawned on me that January = new patch doesn't = on Steam. :(
I can't wait to buy this.
Quote from: Smokey the Bear on January 21, 2014, 09:58:27 AM
I also pirated the game a couple of months ago to take a quick look at it. I played it for 15 minutes and thought it was awesome.
I still haven't bought it and won't until it's on Steam. I have been refreshing the SteamDB everyday hoping to see this pop up, but it's just dawned on me that January = new patch doesn't = on Steam. :(
I can't wait to buy this.
Why wait? If you buy it now, you get a Steam key when it comes out there... plus you give 97% of your money to the creator instead of 70% :D
Quote from: Tynan on January 21, 2014, 10:37:59 AM
Quote from: Smokey the Bear on January 21, 2014, 09:58:27 AM
I also pirated the game a couple of months ago to take a quick look at it. I played it for 15 minutes and thought it was awesome.
I still haven't bought it and won't until it's on Steam. I have been refreshing the SteamDB everyday hoping to see this pop up, but it's just dawned on me that January = new patch doesn't = on Steam. :(
I can't wait to buy this.
Why wait? If you buy it now, you get a Steam key when it comes out there... plus you give 97% of your money to the creator instead of 70% :D
It's more of a financial comfort thing as I usually trade for games on Steam, which makes them dirt cheap, and allows me to get more bang for my buck. I don't really buy games at full price anymore, but I think in the next two months I will come back and buy it here - when money is better. I know that from my sneak peek, the game is 100% worth it and you've certainly got a hit on your hands and I'd love to support the development. This is actually just the kind of game I've been craving for as long as I can remember.
Edit: I know I'm cheap but I usually sacrifice luxuries and some necessities, to play games.
I also pirated the game, played it for like an hour and then bought it! Fantastic Game so far!
Quote from: Tynan on January 21, 2014, 10:37:59 AM
Why wait?
Probably because of games aka "Amber Gold Story".
Castle Story
Is it bad to say, I kickstarter backed it, (I really need to figure out what my NPC should get of statboosts, etc soon).. Then downloaded the torrent, so I could play it until the "official" alpha? ;)
Must say, I Do sometimes Pirate a game still, to try it for some hours to see if its worth buying or not. Must say, that have saved me some cash.. (but I do not bother to pirate to try for games less than 15$ those I rather buy and regret a bit if bad)...
I can say that I did not pirate this game, I saw Etalyx cover it a couple times and loved what I saw and 30 bucks for this game (given endless hours of entertainment so far) was cheap :)
Quote from: Tynan on January 19, 2014, 12:17:52 AM
Well thanks for actually buying it! I always knew people would pirate the game, but it was pretty saddening to see it actually happening. Anyway, it's part of doing business these days so at this point I just accept it. But anyway, good on you to come and buy the game properly.
I wish more people would do away with the myth that piracy is harmful. All studies show it increases sales because it increases visibility. Some developers even purposefully release their games on the torrent network specifically for this purpose.
I didn't exactly pirate this game. A friend of mine bought it, copied it and sent me the copy (that's pirating), because he wanted me to try. I was already sold on the concept and had planned to buy it as soon as I got money. I just wanted to play straight away :3
Now I've paid for it, trying to make a character but I think I'm doing terrible :P She'll make it eventually!
I used to pirate games back in my student days, but these days where my income is much better I don't. I however watch LP's extensively before I decide to invest. LP's aren't fool proof though, because sometimes I come over games that looks fun, but that I don't enjoy playing as much myself. Thus I probably would still pirate-test games these days if I had the same limited budget I had back in the days.
Either way, what I want to say is that I don't think you should feel discouraged if you see your game getting torrented Tynan, because you have such a darn good product that people will want to support it.
i admit i pirate most games to "demo" them.. then i'd buy them once i know my pc can handle it and i have the money.. the reason i do this is because most games these days dont have a demo to play, and even if they do have a demo.. its too restraining..
i pirated Rimworld for 30 minutes and then bought it and im so glad i did. im not afraid to admit it lol
Quote from: Ozymandias on January 19, 2014, 01:39:02 PM
"You have to realize many pirates... wouldn't buy (it) any ways..."
This is actually a very good point.
The media has effectively synonymized pirating with thievery. The
distinction is pretty significant. But I'm not about to get into all of that. Let it suffice that when one steals, tangible resources are lost--a potential sale which could have gone to a paying customer. In the digital world: nothing is lost. It's comparable far more effectively to copying. People argue that the developers time and energy isn't compensated for. But this begs the question: how would $50 compensate a developer of his time and energy? That investment on the part of the artist is divided into thousands if not millions of segments. Which we then satisfy through our individual purchases.
The individuals who are pirating, wouldn't have bought the game, so they wouldn't have made their contribution anyways. But! If they like it enough, they will reconsider. And I've heard of plenty of instances of this happening.
Alot of the times, i think its might be the money issue, just sayin
Quote from: sirhotalot on January 23, 2014, 08:46:18 PM
Quote from: Tynan on January 19, 2014, 12:17:52 AM
Well thanks for actually buying it! I always knew people would pirate the game, but it was pretty saddening to see it actually happening. Anyway, it's part of doing business these days so at this point I just accept it. But anyway, good on you to come and buy the game properly.
I wish more people would do away with the myth that piracy is harmful. All studies show it increases sales because it increases visibility. Some developers even purposefully release their games on the torrent network specifically for this purpose.
I know that Pixel Piracy did have it like that, But then they stoped DX