I've heard tell that blasting charges, due to their ability to wipe out raiders
en masse, are planned to be removed. On the one hand, I can see why; on the other, I do think the basic concept of the blasting charge is a valuable addition to the game.
So, how to fix: split the functionality!
- Blasting Charges continue to exist as-is, with the exception that raiders (and other hostiles) will now treat them like they do autoturrets, e.g. take cover and shoot 'em.
- Add a new object, the "Proximity Mine"; this vanishes from sight (player and colonist) after being built and cannot be manually triggered. If something (colonist, animal, raider) moves next to the mine, blooie!
Sure, you could seed the outside with prox mines, and careful placement of floor tiling can remind you where you placed those mines. But... the colonists won't pathfind around them, and if you wanted to replace them, can you be sure that the original mine did actually go off?
I think the Proximity mine would be more welcome than removing them in the entirety, however perhaps they have a smaller blast radius, and no delay. So that when one steps into the vicinity (Or upon the mine itself) it detonates killing or crippling the surrounding entities.
I think anti-personnel mines would be a great addition, as long as the AI was smart enough to keep my colonists from taking a stroll thru them. Though, I suppose during a mental break it might happen anyway :'(
Quote from: OobleckTheGreen on February 12, 2014, 07:12:20 PM
I think anti-personnel mines would be a great addition, as long as the AI was smart enough to keep my colonists from taking a stroll thru them. Though, I suppose during a mental break it might happen anyway :'(
For game balance, I expect that any means by which your colonists would know there was a mine somewhere, is also available to an oncoming raider. So any mines your colonists can pathfind around, are mines the raiders can pathfind around.
Good ideas here! +1
Simple. Remember how you can set up home area,s depots and such?
It should be easy to add "danger zones" or areas the colonists should avoid (would be considered impassable by them)
Quote from: TrashMan on February 13, 2014, 06:27:57 AM
Simple. Remember how you can set up home area,s depots and such?
It should be easy to add "danger zones" or areas the colonists should avoid (would be considered impassable by them)
+1
Quote from: DeMatt on February 12, 2014, 07:45:10 PMFor game balance, I expect that any means by which your colonists would know there was a mine somewhere, is also available to an oncoming raider. So any mines your colonists can pathfind around, are mines the raiders can pathfind around.
I don't see what that should be. My colonists would have LAID the mines. So of course they would know where they are.
Quote from: OobleckTheGreen on February 13, 2014, 11:57:02 AMI don't see what that should be. My colonists would have LAID the mines. So of course they would know where they are.
That is one of the problems with the current mines though, which is why they are being cut. (they are quite OP) You can use them to survive for eternity as-well.
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If these mines are added however.
yea anything should trigger them,.. eg a squirrel.
They should be more expensive
They should be nerfed (man I hate that word, but it has to be done)
after this they will balance better.
Maybe have a zone where the colonist add mines instead of actually adding the mines one by one your self.
I also agree that the mines 'should have there stats altered to be less effective then now'.
Quote from: Evul on February 13, 2014, 03:46:39 PM
Maybe have a zone where the colonist add mines instead of actually adding the mines one by one your self.
I also agree that the mines 'should have there stats altered to be less effective then now'.
Like a minefield zone?
So like the colonist will lay miens all over in there autonomously?
I like that, because currently you have to replace each one individually after an attack. (which is in fact, annoying)
Yeah exactly my point :)
And if they have room to replace a mine without stepping on one they will do it else they let the area be.
Quote from: Untrustedlife on February 13, 2014, 03:47:24 PM
Like a minefield zone?
So like the colonist will lay miens all over in there autonomously?
That's exactly what I was assuming was being suggested by this thread.
They should also be nerfed, but let me be specific about HOW I think it should be done: Currently, one mine has an explosion radius of something like 8x8 (with the exception of the outer corners). It can kill a huge number of people if properly timed. But a real antipersonnel mine typically is created to take out a single person, not an entire platoon. So, I think the "nerfed" explosion should have a very good chance at killing or badly disabling, but it should be focused on the individual that set off the mine by walking over it (Those nearby, say in a 3x3 zone, could potentially take minor shrapnel damage). Then make them a bit more expensive to build so you don't have people laying down minefield zones like wall-to-wall carpeting.
Quote from: Evul on February 13, 2014, 03:50:31 PM
Yeah exactly my point :)
And if they have room to replace a mine without stepping on one they will do it else they let the area be.
Problem with that is the possibility of boxing themselves in with mines when they're autobuilding. Say X's are mines, in this configuration after a couple raiders blow themselves up:
So, a minelayer colonist goes to spot C, places mine in spot 1, then turns around and places mine in spot 2. Now what do you do?
we don't want to build them close so they don't make chain reaction.
so it should be like: build a mine, and when it goes up, it will be automatically rebuild.
Mines have for a while been the cornerstone of my raider defense, sometimes so effectively that it makes every assault a completely trivial routine event. Still, I like the idea of specialized anti-personell mines a lot. I think explosives should eventually be made into several techs you can research separately:
- Rock blasting - using mining skill, colonists can drill into rock and blast it into rubble. Much faster than mining pick. Slight danger of accidents. Useless as weaponry.
- Upwards-firing proximity mine - instantly kills any human-or-larger target that steps directly on it, nobody else affected.
- Omnidirectional mine - triggered by nearby activity, posibly tripwire. Instantly fires a large number of bullets in random directions. Should be pretty easy to implement, and much more realistic and interesting than the predictable fixed-range, fixed-damage blasts we currently have.
- Claymore mine - fires a bunch of bullets in a 60-degree arc, in a direction determined when laid down. Remotely triggered, but instant, or possibly trip wired.
I kinda like the idea of a mine field so you won't have to put down mines individually, but this may be a bit tricky to get just right.
About the "friendly fire" issue; keep in mind that mines are specifically made to be hard to spot, and while those who laid them will know the general area, they can't possibly remember exactly where each one is. Accidents will, and should, happen in the game. No-go zones is a necessary mechanic, but let colonists sometimes stumble one or two squares into such zones, so that you can't just make a bunch of 1-square zones exactly on top of all the mines. You have to make large actual fields where the colonists know there are mines, without knowing each individual mine.
Edit: Further idea - let quality mines be weapons you buy from arms dealers. You can build crude, home-made versions, but these are dangerous to make, dangerous to store, dangerous to deploy, and often don't detonate when they should. Could make for fun "oh shit!" moments. Also, maybe you'll sometimes get to recruit a guy with rare bomb-making skills, allowing for a bit of variation in your gameplay. Until he suddenly dies in a tragic bomb workshop accident.
Firing 'A bunch of bullets' would be cool, like a shrapnel bomb. Maybe you could get fragmentation grenades with a similar effect, as well as an explosion.
Yes, while were on the subtopic of fragmention why not have the frag grenades work like how you want the omnidirectionals?
They would be more fragmention grenade and less ultimate destructive force in a can
if you force attack using a drafted troop with a frag grenade to attack an area, they will keep doing that. i usually use two of them in sequence, aimed near a choke point to minimize the explosion delay. i find it cheaper than using the blasting charge anyways, since repairs to the outer wall usually costs less than a single blast charge (unless your troops have horrible aim or if you aim too close to the wall). most times it costs nothing and your ammo is infinite.
what would be nice is to have traps that slows the mobility of opponents or helps to prevent them from escaping. something that you can reset and repair when damaged... (like bear traps or something)
I like the no danger zone option that was presented earlier. Like a "Set Home" region in blue, the danger zone would be red and colonists wouldn't be allowed to go out there unless specifically told to go out there, no automated orders would allow them out there.
Maybe colonists with photographic memory as a trait can enter red zones without triggering any explosives, as they'll remember the exact location of every single mine. I did happen to have one with photographic memory earlier after all. Traits aren't in use right now though.
Proximity mines would just be an omni effect in a short range. Wouldn't do critical damage to an enemy like current mines do and have much less range. So they basically injure the enemy and possibly slow them down with an 'injured' status (like burning, but just slown down rather than running around like crazy). Maybe 10 to 20 damage, 20 at the blast center, less the further out. At highest 2 blocks away would get 1 damage.
The current mines should be left in game but should be made more obvious and visible to enemy raiders, not completely visible, just easier to spot so a raider would have a % chance better of seeing it than seeing another smaller mine. This mine should be buyable only from arms dealers, and would be considered "packed mine" until you select a plot of land for "deploy mine" and select it as the type of land mine you want. This would also apply an injured effect, if it doesn't kill that is. The highest amount of damage would be at the center of the blast, and would always kill. If it's possible, you can also reduce damage done to squares past entities, so say one guy is directly on top of the land mine, all squares around him get 50% less damage due to him being on top of the mine when it goes off. And another guy standing to his left takes 50% of the damage he would have, while knocking down the damage 50 more % to everything else towards the left side, or past him. But, that might be to complex to code so early on in development. It's just an idea.
Rock Blasting mines is a good idea, though accidents should be rare if handled by someone with proper explosives training and mining skills. I like trip mines as well. You simply build some mines into your wall with a trip wire that goes across to the other wall, with mines layed out under that wire in the ground, the mines themselves are invisible and the trip wire is very hard to see. This won't be detected till either someone with high skills of seeing traps sees it, or the first raider trips and explodes over it, then the raiders would stop and look around, checking for more traps. Just like in a mine field where one guy explodes, the raiders go "ohshit, guys, don't move." then start looking around for signs of mines and either avoid them or trigger them with fun fire or even throwing large rocks. Anyhow, the ones built into walls or door ways, would be known to all of your colonists, so your colonists could avoid them perfectly fine and go on about their lives as if nothing were different. If the wall is destroyed, then they detonate. If the wall catches fire, it will detonate once the wall becomes largely damaged (aka in the red). Actually, I prefer laser wire mines, instead of a physical wire, you have a laser to detonate them. This way, you can activate a base defense mode which turns on all the lasers, and turn off base defense mode which turns off the traps.
Claymores are interesting. Would be good for sticking in places you never plan to go, and will detonate when animal or person steps into their proximity and firing range. This'd be about the same as the earlier mine I mentioned, the first one with at most 20 damage, only it does all of that damage in one direction so it may be 70% more effective. The issue with this mine is that it is obvious and perfectly visible so you have to hide it around a corner and hope a raider walks past it before seeing it.
Again, most of these would explode even on your colonists, land mines don;t choose sides. They just explode. So you'd need danger areas to keep people out of an area.
One thought I had for mines as well was a control console, a screen with a map of the territory you've discovered so far and the location of mines on it. This could let your colonists not need red zones, they just look at the map before heading out. And the control console would let you hook wires up to your mines so you can detonate them remotely, so long as there is someone at the control console. This would also work in conjunction with turrets, so turrets would no longer fire automatically but require people at the control console to fire them, but that's something for a different topic.