Some people around here don't think it's a terribly good idea and has no place in the game.
Personally I think it would add a whole new dimension of gameplay (pun totally intended).
I'd like to hear your thoughts and opinions.
Obviously an extra dimension would mean new technical challenges so if Tynan could shed some light on that subject that would be great.
As giant mega-difficult features go, this isn't my favorite. I'd do multiplayer before this, if I were to do either one of them.
Oh man, both of those together would make for some awesome gameplay. I can just see myself digging into an enemy's base from the underside, only to dig straight into a cave that has been rigged to collapse, instantly crushing my raiding party...
Quote from: Tynan on February 26, 2014, 07:44:03 PM
As giant mega-difficult features go, this isn't my favorite. I'd do multiplayer before this, if I were to do either one of them.
I am prepared to offer my firstborn for multiplayer. Just saying.
Throw a kickstarter down for just multi-player and I'll help make sure it happens.
Quote from: colonistPally on February 27, 2014, 02:54:20 AM
Throw a kickstarter down for just multi-player and I'll help make sure it happens.
why not both multiplayer and z-levels? if they would do another kickstart just to add those systems i think there'd be enough people to support them. i'd definitely would. :)
same - if i would fund z levels its would be pretty good because single level gets sometimes hard - example no metals left on ground - you need dig deeper in subsurface levels
also ability to have upper floors as well (possibly research elevator)
elevators would come two types - (small - 4 person elevator) (large - can hold 10 people)
those will come with doors and Machinery (requires power) and Access level - restrict access to people example researchers can access level 2 only
alternatively research hand operated elevators (small - 1 person) (large - can hold 4 people)
or research stairs and ramps - they carry unlimited people
Sounds like a cool idea but I also see the problems with two story buildings.
Lets say you are defending and you are having two guys on ground floor and two on top. How whould you manage either one?.. The idea about underground caves and shizzle sounds great c: and multiplayer is nice too but it whould be way sexier if the colonies could trade and help each other not just raid.
As big a fan I am of Dwarf Fortress I don't think z-levels would be a beneficial addition to Rimworld, I would much rather have dynamic expanding borders ("infinite" maps) with vehicles and varied biomes over that.
Of course, z-levels would provide more depth for the game, but it also add a level of tediousness to the game as well - I fear it will kill the current relaxed atmosphere in the game, and it definitively will kill the immersion when you as a human colonist are digging down into the ground like a mole. That's fine for dwarfs, but not humans. Only situation I would see myself enjoy z-levels in Rimworld is for multi-story buildings.
An alternative solution for those who want to "dig" for resources could be to add "mining wells" that could be placed over mineral veins that you could prospect for. This could for example also be expanded with oil drilling towers and prospecting for oil as well.
Also remember Rimworld's event system that regularly dump space debris and resources down on us. This could be greatly expanded to allow for other things such as meteorite crashes etc. to provide mine-able rocks in the landscape so you won't run out of stuff to mine on the surface (though I doubt that will be such a huge problem if we get dynamic maps).
When I think about which one adds more value to RimWorld and the longitude of the game, multiplayer is the most obvious. Plus there's no way to develop both at once. So there'd be like a KS for multi and a KS for z later.
Plus multi has to be divided into co-op and vs. So it'd be like two tiers of ks just for that.
No offense. Z is nice but it's an insane amount of complexity if you go full Z with not a lot of returns. The only way I see it adding value is if it goes the StarCraft 2 route where the Z just means two levels of land and no digging. So cliffs, ledges, etc.. Two levels of the same earth, basically.
If you want to leverage legitimate longevity though... co-op and vs is where it's at... and a matchmaker... and you need some way so it shares the rules/mods (which would substitute modes..)
Anyway again don't get me wrong. Even some pseudo-Z would be very very cool. Adding ledges/cliffs to the map would be really fun and add all kinds of strategy and compliment the cover system but then you have line of sight that has to be coded and another art set and a lot of new logic and....
It's doable but I would stage multi and Z with two different KS's and definitely do multi (co op and vs) first. Because once that gets launched along with modding taking off this game will do amazing. Nothing in the StarCraft 2 engine could even come close and this would be filling a huge huge gap in what's available.
I'm rambling sorry. It's been an awful week for me. Thanks for reading.
Quote from: ShadowTani on February 27, 2014, 09:37:24 AM
As big a fan I am of Dwarf Fortress I don't think z-levels would be a beneficial addition to Rimworld, I would much rather have dynamic expanding borders ("infinite" maps) with vehicles and varied biomes over that.
Of course, z-levels would provide more depth for the game, but it also add a level of tediousness to the game as well - I fear it will kill the current relaxed atmosphere in the game, and it definitively will kill the immersion when you as a human colonist are digging down into the ground like a mole. That's fine for dwarfs, but not humans. Only situation I would see myself enjoy z-levels in Rimworld is for multi-story buildings.
An alternative solution for those who want to "dig" for resources could be to add "mining wells" that could be placed over mineral veins that you could prospect for. This could for example also be expanded with oil drilling towers and prospecting for oil as well.
Also remember Rimworld's event system that regularly dump space debris and resources down on us. This could be greatly expanded to allow for other things such as meteorite crashes etc. to provide mine-able rocks in the landscape so you won't run out of stuff to mine on the surface (though I doubt that will be such a huge problem if we get dynamic maps).
-though i'd prefer a true z-level (below and above ground), a multi-story building compromise might be sufficient. barring that, how about adding a faux z-level "elevation" stats to the cover system? ie: building 2d towers that can increase the shooting range of pawns placed on top of it (just change the y-values of the sprite so it looks like it's climbing up or down a tower sprite)
-i also agree with the rabbit-hole mines. +1 on that.
-anyways, the closest thing i've found so far for a base building game that allows for a decent z-level combat is castle story (also in early access). however at this point in time, it still has a horrible combat AI, lacks the other intricacies of base building and survival, plus it's buggy as hell.
i think both rimworld and castlestory are developed in unity (which is a 3d engine btw.) and it's perfectly normal to merge 2d and 3d elements fluidly. so having a 3d procedural world similar to minecraft while using 2d characters sprites is perfectly feasible in unity. and if they keep the main camera fixed at an angle to simulate a top-down or an isometric view, this would also give the illusion of playing a 2d game while retaining the capabilities of a 3d game. adding collider components to 2d character sprites and aiming/shooting guns via raycasting, should also allow for z-level combat as well.
this was actually one of the first things that i thought about when i heard about rimworld in a unity game dev post. i was actually hoping it would transcend the flaws of gnomoria since it was built upon a 3d engine. while still having the intricate base building, colony management, and productions found in other base building games.
-however, the complexity of the combat AI of rimworld coupled with base building totally makes up for the lack of z-levels. i have not regretted buying it just for the sake of that combat AI alone. it's a great game because of it. :)
@keylocke Yes I know what you mean. I really do think the biggest hurdle though with be a complete overhaul of the combat AI. I wouldn't even know where to start, and just like StarCraft, if you put yourself on a cliff just right.. and with line of sight.. well. We know how those Terran turtle pvp matches go. They can hold a hill all day long with virtually no units.
Which means Raiders would need massive counter AI and some kind of like flare or air unit to see z1............ then the whole fog of war thing if that gets put in.
Then if raiders get their own camp, what do you do if the raiders end up on a z1 defending a ramp.
AAAAAAAGH :P where are my mutalisks, I'll fix this right now. Oh wait they built turrets. I'll build brood lords oh wait they have vikings and you won't let me have scourge, and you took away their wraiths and valkyries and I don't get my guardians anymore and no devourers. nowhere to put a nydus and even with the entire map controlled I can't do anything because they keep medivac dropping hellbats on me. asdfasdfjopasdfojpasdfojpasdfojpsadojpsadfojpsdafopjasdfjopsdf
*someone logs into the forum and tells me "I should have scouted first."*
*has Sc2 PTSD and passes out*
Quote from: colonistPally on February 28, 2014, 08:11:44 PM
@keylocke Yes I know what you mean. I really do think the biggest hurdle though with be a complete overhaul of the combat AI. I wouldn't even know where to start, and just like StarCraft, if you put yourself on a cliff just right.. and with line of sight.. well. We know how those Terran turtle pvp matches go. They can hold a hill all day long with virtually no units.
fighting from a higher position increases range but not necessarily accuracy. but i get what you mean about turtle battle. although currently, raider AI is still exploitable since they don't seem to be able to recognize a chokepoint leading towards a killzone despite all of the dead raider bodies lying across the entrance. (ie : the current AI doesn't seem to learn what areas to avoid so i actually just bunker in on my killzone)
as for possible counter to pawns placed on towers, that would be for the raiders to arrive on vehicles (or possibly drop in from the sky using mechs. (i heard mechs and vehicles are already in the works) so having a tower is not as OP as one would believe.
another possible counter would be to take out the support of a building since the terrain are destructible (killing everyone placed on a higher floor and below as it falls down). a single frag grenade could also send a tower crashing down or a well placed molotov can trap the pawn upside until it burns along with the tower.
so like i said, not as OP as one would be led to believe.
ps : starcraft doesn't have destructible terrain. but rimworld does.
I don't like the idea of z-index used for multi-level building, but I do like it in terms of removing a mountain, or digging a moat. No one should be able to build or enter other levels. -1 would be the lowest, and that'd be a moat. There'd be no max height, it'd just be mountain. 0 is the level everyone is on, 1 is sky, 2 is shallow rock, 3 and up is high rock. 2 would turn into 1 if there is nothing under it supporting it. Something like that, I posted a topic in suggestions about it. :P
some people like z-levels on their base building game, some people don't. i'm one of those people that actually do like it , does our opinion no longer count?
anyways, when i heard rimworld was made on unity 3d, it kinda got my hopes up since i was thinking that z-levels for a base building game can be added later on since this was being developed on a 3d game engine, which would've made perfect sense if there was a high enough demand for it.
but, it's practically a moot point arguing about it now, since i've read somewhere that tynan doesn't seem to be interested in adding z-levels in the first place. so..
Quote from: keylocke on March 01, 2014, 07:39:44 PM
some people like z-levels on their base building game, some people don't. i'm one of those people that actually do like it , does our opinion no longer count?
anyways, when i heard rimworld was made on unity 3d, it kinda got my hopes up since i was thinking that z-levels for a base building game can be added later on since this was being developed on a 3d game engine, which would've made perfect sense if there was a high enough demand for it.
but, it's practically a moot point arguing about it now, since i've read somewhere that tynan doesn't seem to be interested in adding z-levels in the first place. so..
I think he wants to add it. But it's the kind of "want to add it" like "wish it didn't take so much work to do."
Geez you brought up moats. How cool would that be! You just did trenches and wait until it rains. :) Dig deeper to make a pond or lake. Dig too deep and have a well.
You bring up raider AI again and my brain switched gears from a StarCraft defense to a tower defense. If they just rode in armored vehicles they could bypass your turrets altogether unless you had Czech hedgehogs everywhere. :-) Or you could have the raiders doing drops from air ships. So that'd be like Z^2+ and you'd need missile upgrades on your turrets or they could just freely land anywhere... Or they could tunnel underneath or hell just give them those mountain tunnel vehicles from Ninja Turtles that Shredder road around.
I hope you don't feel like I'm shutting you down. If I could wave a magic wand ... it would be interesting. :-) and Z would be on there because the first thing I would do is take over all the high ground Z^1 then guard towers Z^2 and then dig dig dig dig. So I'd build down instead of out which would help the fatigue situation so much...
Anyway I support you. So please don't think I'm trying to shoo you away or shut you up. I'm on your side on thinking Z would be very very very cool.
Quote from: colonistPally on March 01, 2014, 07:47:54 PM
I hope you don't feel like I'm shutting you down. If I could wave a magic wand ... it would be interesting. :-) and Z would be on there because the first thing I would do is take over all the high ground Z^1 then guard towers Z^2 and then dig dig dig dig. So I'd build down instead of out which would help the fatigue situation so much...
Anyway I support you. So please don't think I'm trying to shoo you away or shut you up. I'm on your side on thinking Z would be very very very cool.
ah, my previous post was a reply to this post by Vas' :
Quote from: Vas on March 01, 2014, 09:22:03 AM
I don't like the idea of z-index used for multi-level building,
as for this part of your post :
Quote from: colonistPally on March 01, 2014, 07:47:54 PMGeez you brought up moats. How cool would that be! You just did trenches and wait until it rains. :) Dig deeper to make a pond or lake. Dig too deep and have a well.
it seemed like you got mixed up with the details between vas' post and my post.
but anyways.. knowing that there are others who share similar views about z-levels on a base building game is kinda rad.
further more, there seems to be a growing number of base building games popping around like mushrooms these days, developed on both 2d or 3d game engines. honestly, i still think that 2d games built on a 3d engine (while still maintaining a fixed camera aspect to simulate a 2d view) has way more capabilities than a game that was built entirely on a 2d game engine. this is what separates rimworld from the other 2d base building games out there, because it already has a built-in x/y/z axis due to the 3d game engine that was used in development.
basically the gist is : "think in 3d, but give the illusion of 2d"
Sorry yeah I do get confused. Yes 2d in a 3d engine is a really good idea and very versatile.
I imagine even if we don't specifically have Z levels, we could still have things like air transports since Z still technically exists?
So if we're on a huge map and a new colonist is down on the other side of the map or someone that's traveling through, we can "get to the choppa!" and go nab them and just chopper back.
Or on larger maps when we have a "home 1" and a "home 2" we can shuttle people back and forth in our helicopters (for an expensive resource cost) instead of the slow muffalo caravans....
I do hope that Z-levels are added in the future.
Z-Index is already in the game. Everything is just on Z level 0.
I think I would rather have a sub level, similar to the ground level, but its mostly all rock and little caves, I think it would work like age of wonders 3 where it is basically another world where you can go to but ts still in the same "area". I think it would he relatively easy and would rather that then an over world map 2x the size, or have the procedural world like factorio, that would be just amazing
I personally am not a fan of the idea of Z-levels, and to be fair, if it is some Ty really doesn't want to do, then we shouldn't be trying to force it in