Dunno if lacking is the right word, but can't think of another. Bought the game a few days ago, fully aware of the "early access" tag, but after playing lots the last few days I find the game in dire need of some minor changes (and this is long because I'm wordy).
Right from the get-go, Rimworld is not friendly to new players. It's missing a way to jump into the game without having to go through most the setup - which requires knowing the game before you even know what you're doing. The "choose starting location" screen is missing explanation of the pro/cons of each region - needed to know what to choose. Then comes picking your crew. The game should ideally give you a starting group that's viable, but it's so randomized that you're very likely to get a group of pacifists who can't mine - and other combinations that are doomed to fail within the first 2 days. Having all your starting resources inaccessible by default is also very counter-intuitive - esp since stuff is nearly impossible to find on the map unless you know exactly where it is.
Reg. difficulty: - on Classic the game likes to vary between periods of peace and long periods of near non-stop attacks and disasters. Dealing with heatwave - bad enough the coolers can't keep the food from spoiling, gutworms (because the cooks are down from the last raid), surge events, all the while being outmanned 3:1 by pirates with pulse rifles and grenades very early in the game before having a chance to recover from the last raid, just ruins the fun of playing. And that was on "rough". On "basebuilding" the raids are slightly more manageable and the peace periods much longer, at first anyway, but there's a huge discrepancy in difficulty between "basebuilding" and "rough". Haven't bothered with the higher difficulties because it's not fun trying to learn the game when you barely get to play an hour before being devastated into an unrecoverable state.
On Chillax, the game is just boring and yet you still run into the raids that just murder everyone without giving you a fair chance.
The slightly odd controls you get used at, but that doesn't mean they're good, but the UI design could use some serious improvement. I'd like the gathering commands to not be buried with the building commands, because that makes no sense. 99% of what's in Architect -> Orders need to be readily available at all times, instead of requiring 4 clicks to chop down a tree, harvest a bush, or mine something. Right clicking randomly changes between cancelling commands or giving you a context menu, depending on what you have selected. It needs to be persistent. It makes no sense to be able to left-click an item and schedule demolition (as example), and then having to pick a specific (and the right) dude in order to be able to right-click prioritize. At all times you should be able to right-click something and either schedule the command or prioritize it (which would make the game send the first suitable dude to do it immediately). Controls need to work in a consistent manner, otherwise it's confusing as hell and makes it much harder to do even the most basic stuff because you constantly have to switch between left-click-click-click-click and left-click + right+click + left+click.
As for all the other stuff... the automatic prioritization means a lot of stuff never gets done, and doing it manually requires, again, a lot of clicks to jump back and forth between the character windows and priority window to get it set right so the right people do what they're best at first, when really it'd make more sense if the game simply picked the best person available for each job.
The bill system also bugs me. You can set the priority separately for each machine, but not globally, which becomes problematic when you have incomplete crafting orders in multiple places. Like when you need clothes made, bricks made, armour made, weapons made, and components made, and don't have enough crafters to man all the machines at once. It'd make more sense if the bill system was global, so you can prioritize making armour over smelting steel, but making components over making rifles, and so on. That way the system can also tell you if you're missing the machines to make what you want, and give you some better control over who does what. Instead of having to find each machine and constantly suspend and resume each and every order because you can't prioritize the items across the machines.
And then comes the construction: We lack defensive structures - mainly perimeter walls/fences and watch towers. Would also help a lot with miners getting eaten by panthers if they move more than 10 squares outside the base.
Also lacking is windows, desperately, to provide more joy and help the spoiled brats complain less.
And it'd be nice with a proper cooling system to build the fridges (and some indication of how big an area they can cover and what the cooling rate is), along with some more realistic temperature control. When you freeze stuff to -18 C it should take min. 24 hours before it even reaches 5 C, and not immediately jump to 40 C as soon as the power goes out.
Finally, I find it strange to generate a whole world only to give you a stamp sized corner of it. Where is the option to explore the rest of the world? To tool up and go raid the other camps? Why is the only playmode to turtle up and hope the game waits just a few more days before sending in the guys with rocket launchers? Let me go harass the other guys and use them for target practice with the mortars, instead of the entire game being about trying to survive more and more ridiculous raids. I guess you're supposed to be building a spaceship, but that only fits 1 scenario (and it happens to be the exact same and only win condition as Factorio).
Just some thoughts. Only played 37 hours, but already had to start over about a dozen times because the game screws me over (it's that or save-scumming). And starting over isn't fun. That's just wasting my time.
This game is by far one of the most fun games Ive played. Im a huge fan of the game. But you... Why do you want to spread your negativity to this page? If YOU think the game lacks stuff then thats FINE! Delete the game and go play outside. You just. You just negligent.
Quote from: Naeem on August 02, 2016, 07:51:47 AM
This game is by far one of the most fun games Ive played. Im a huge fan of the game. But you... Why do you want to spread your negativity to this page? If YOU think the game lacks stuff then thats FINE! Delete the game and go play outside. You just. You just negligent.
Lets not be negative. The game is in early access and some of these suggestions are pretty good. The only thing I would like to suggest to the OP is that these ideas belong in the suggestions section where they can help the game to evolve and grow. :)
Quote from: Naeem on August 02, 2016, 07:51:47 AM
This game is by far one of the most fun games Ive played. Im a huge fan of the game. But you... Why do you want to spread your negativity to this page? If YOU think the game lacks stuff then thats FINE! Delete the game and go play outside. You just. You just negligent.
Letting people know their game has room for improvement is the only way the game can improve. Far too many devs think their game is perfect because they make money.
Also, "negligent" - failing to give sb/sth enough care or attention, especially when this has serious results - would be me NOT posting my thoughts. The point in early access is feedback. If that's not welcome then the game shouldn't be in early access.
Many of the OP's points are fair. RW does have a steep learning curve and can get very micromanage-y. It certainly isn't for everyone.
I agree the thread should be moved to Suggestions though.
Honestly, having any kind of actual tutorial to explain the base mechanics already exists in the form of the adaptive helper, which is usually enough to guide a new player to constructing a source of power, food, and temperature-regulated shelter. You learn the rest from playing or from lets plays.
Colonist randomization would be difficulty to generate with an 'ideal' set of skills seeing you'd be weighing in against a bunch of pre-set backer colonists followed by random colonists, which stop being so random when the game keeps trying to give you the 'ideal' colonist. This is why the 'randomize' button exists for when you don't roll decent colonists.
Your post on difficulty may be more of an issue with how the player dealt with the events that led to their own demise than anything. Cassandra Classic is meant to ramp up in difficulty with time, meaning shes quick to start pushing you to either building a fort knox-style colony or rushing ship tech within the first 2-3 years. Dying when you're still new to the game is very much expected and the best you can do at that point is learn from your mistakes and start a new colony with that knowledge in mind.
Control system is meh, I've played too long to complain much seeing how I've gotten used to them, but I could see how they might be troublesome for a newer player.
Bill tabs work better in larger colonists when you have more varied levels of colonists to spread over the even out the work effort. Issues come about when you have multiple tables with work orders depending on what priorities you have set for colonists, which is a bit annoying but its more of a limitation than anything right now. The manual priority system is meant for detailed changing of how colonists go about their work day. If you aren't a fan of this then automatic work suggestions exist on by default, its just that it isn't very good at what it does because a colonist with a low skill level is still checked to do that specific job.
Defensive structures are lacking right now due to the fact the current AI is fairly easily exploited so things like embrasures are hilariously overpowered because the AI is too stupid in most situations to do things like going around your killbox instead of charging straight into their death. One of the things were hoping get addressed in a larger update for the AI at some point in the future.
World generation is basically for show. It lets you choose a starter location and shows some faction locations, but its literally just that. Tynan wants to do traveling to locations at some point in the future but as it stands the map for colony selection currently exists solely to have a more pretty method of selecting colonies. Another thing to note is that clicking on a tile will show you the growth periods, the temperature ranges, biome (jungle, tundra, ect) and what type of region it'll be (plains, hills, mountains). I thought that was more than enough to let the person know what they were dropping into.
Quote from: SteelRodent on August 02, 2016, 07:38:09 AM
The game should ideally give you a starting group that's viable, but it's so randomized that you're very likely to get a group of pacifists who can't mine - and other combinations that are doomed to fail within the first 2 days.
Assuming you are playing the standard setup (3 colonists crashland), they should cover most skills between them. Most pawns only have 1 or 2 skills disabled at worst and with 3 pawns you should be able to get by. Lack of haulers can be painful, but you should aim for having a full-time hauler anyway - it's the most important job overall, as most other jobs depend on having materials nearby. Of course it's possible to create hopeless groups if you keep clicking randomize until you get the worst possible setup but the default group the game picks for you should be functional. I've never seen the game spawn 3 pawns who are all unable to do a certain job.
Quote
As for all the other stuff... the automatic prioritization means a lot of stuff never gets done, and doing it manually requires, again, a lot of clicks to jump back and forth between the character windows and priority window to get it set right so the right people do what they're best at first, when really it'd make more sense if the game simply picked the best person available for each job.
All colonists start with some jobs unchecked depending on their skill selection, so the game does in fact "pick the best person for the job". However, the best person for the job depends on a variety of circumstances that change over time, so it's up to you as the player to fine-tune these values to keep them relevant.
I agree with you that the UI could use some work. In particular, I find that too much space and attention is reserved for commands that are almost never used, such as "open container". Differentiating between critical and unimportant UI elements would go a long towards making it less confusing for new players.
Quote from: Goldenpotatoes on August 02, 2016, 09:43:57 AM
Honestly, having any kind of actual tutorial to explain the base mechanics already exists in the form of the adaptive helper, which is usually enough to guide a new player to constructing a source of power, food, and temperature-regulated shelter. You learn the rest from playing or from lets plays.
The problem with the adaptive tutor is that it only really kicks in once the problem grows big enough. By the time you correct the mistake you made, you have most likely already suffered the worst possible consequences of said mistake - it feels like the tutor is just pointing out your shortcomings rather than giving you some sort of basic idea of how to get started and what to prioritize.
I also disagree that you should have to watch youtube videos in order to learn the basics of a game. However, this also ties into the wiki being kind of lacking (I'm sure they're working on it), which is a different discussion.
It wouldn't be a bad idea, nearer the official release, to have a "learner mode" that automatically picks colonists without any restrictions, and sticks you in a temperate zone. That, combined with the Adaptive Helper, should be enough to get anyone started.
Having access to an in-game manual (also a feature for closer to official release) would help fill in the gaps. The Sims 2+ have a pretty good system with their manual, which allows DLC to add to it as it's developed.
Well, the game is in the tradition of Dwarf Fortress (whose motto is: "Losing is !!fun!!" :D )
But I agree that, for new players, some kind of Intro-Mode would be nice (maybe even some hands on tutorials with a preselected (i.e. not randomized) group of pawns)
On the other hand, as you already said, this game is Alpha ... so it may be a little early for this, considering that Tynan still is in the process of adding features and changing things (which would require expansion and change of any tutorials, with each major version change of Alpha)
As noted above, Rimworld is similar to Dwarf Fortress.
This is not SimCity, or some less complex but graphically more appealing game that can have simple help. I've played DF extensively, and graduated to Masterwork and other complex mods. I explored the production menus to get a feel for what things could do, read the forums extensively, found mods that addressed many feature issues, and figured stuff out.
In short, investigation, exploration, self-teaching, and modifying the base game to suit me.
OP should seriously consider mods, especially the work and manager mods, as it addresses OP's concerns.
Attempting to simplify complex game systems to help those that won't help themselves is self defeating, because it is the complexity that differentiates the game and keeps it replayable. Insisting that the game adapt to you rather than you adapting to the game is so, well, millennial.
In short, Harden Up. Use Mods. Do the Research, or RTFF, such as they are.
Nodnod @ OP on all points. Good summary of where Rimworld currently lacks. It's still huge fun but the prio system and UI in particular are in dire need of improvements. Which is fine because it's alpha. Looking forward to the next changes.
Quote from: bluntobj on August 02, 2016, 12:28:09 PM
In short, Harden Up. Use Mods. Do the Research, or RTFF, such as they are.
Mods are a great solution for a finished game . . . even in alpha they CAN be good as they show what people want enough to code themselves, while also giving the developers some idea of how popular the change is. However sending a tester off to find mods seems a bit counter productive.
Someone has to test the base game without alterations and give the developers feed back without the caveat that any problems they encounter might be caused by modifications to the game.
Comparing this game to Dwarf Fortress also is unfair. I love that game, but it is a FREE game developed by two brothers. There are a lot of independent add ons to customize it any way you like. It's not aiming for a big player base. The developers do what they want because they love the game. They aren't SELLING it on a major gaming platform.
Plus it is in all of our best interest, if we love the Dwarf Fortress inspired Genre, to make it as inviting to new players as possible. Maybe the guy who starts out playing Rimworld is going to later move on to other games . . . Gnomeria, or even DF itself. :)
"Plus it is in all of our best interest, if we love the Dwarf Fortress inspired Genre, to make it as inviting to new players as possible."
Not when it compromises the genre itself.
Rimworld is not attractive to everyone. It's a niche product like most other games. It's like a stock Honda Civic; you get the basic game that has good play and gets you there. You can then mod it, if you choose, into an absurdly cool street racer. Or not.
If the developer wishes to add those features into a stock model, then great! If not, then great!
But don't fit it with training wheels.
Quote from: winddbourne on August 02, 2016, 12:51:48 PMPlus it is in all of our best interest, if we love the Dwarf Fortress inspired Genre, to make it as inviting to new players as possible.
This is important enough to say again.
Making a game inviting and open to new players is
NOT the same thing as compromising the genre. No one is suggesting dumbing down the gameplay, only making it more intuitive, and having systems in place to teach the game to people who aren't already familiar with the game, or would like to get into it without reading tons of discussions on forums. While it's still in Alpha, RTFF is acceptable advice, but it's absolutely horrible advice to give someone who's just getting into a game, either way; To be clear, horrible advice can still be acceptable under certain circumstances, such as a game that is actively being developed.
While I don't agree on all particulars, the OPs points are perfectly valid, and implementing most of them wouldn't "compromise the genre" (which literally isn't possible for a single game to do) nor would it compromise the game. Losing is still going to be something that happens more often than not (unless you Save Scum, which shouldn't EVER be something a developer tries to balance around) but losing isn't fun if it's because of non-intuitive functionality.
All of this is caveated by the fact that this is in Alpha. Polishing and balancing will be a continual process, and sometimes new updates will break previously balanced and smoothly working features. Because of that, anything more than the most rudimentary tutorial should be back-burnered, and RTFF is something that players should be prepared to do.
We're in agreement there. Resources at this point are better spent in content and fixes than in codifying a help system or trying to simplify a delightfully complex game.
Quote from: SteelRodent on August 02, 2016, 07:38:09 AM
... And starting over isn't fun. That's just wasting my time.
Surviving to playing the long game is a goal(and a fun one!).
However, not only is starting over with a new colony
also fun but it is not even remotely a waste of time.
It sounds like its not fun
to you.
I'm not sure exactly what the complaint is... Rimworld is already surprisingly intuitive and responsive. It's rarely hard to figure out *how* to do something. You want to build a solar panel and a heater? Click click click there ya go. Oh, did you forget to put a battery in? Sorry, your heater goes out as soon as the sun goes down. Ooopsie.
*What* to do takes time to learn, but that's the fun of the game, making mistakes and learning from them. "Crap, I'm not going to send my boys out to attack sappers, I'll wait for them to dig into my turret nest instead."
Of course, this form of play requires that you reload autosaves when you screw up and die. So? Anyone who plays on "permadeath" without having had lots of experience already is an idiot who deserves to lose^H^H^H^Hhave FUN.
To OP
Tynan has worked on the ingame tutor, it should make the game somwhat enjoyable if enabled. Also we have online forums where you can ask for help and tips. I give you cred for stating you oppinion, we should not hate on the people that have something to say.
I can agree on most of the things you said, but for the moment Tynan is focusing on other stuff that needs his attention. We should have a preloaded map for starters so they can have a playthrough they can manage. If that is what you where looking for then I would encurrage you to open a thread in suggestions and in the near future a mod or admin will get back to you.
Best of luck :*
Note: I have been playing RW since Alpha 3, so it's hard for me to relate to being "new". But I can tell you that the user-friendliness has increased drastically.
to OP as well: I started with Rimworld only 2 weeks ago and without reading anything on forums or wiki. Sure enough, it took me several matches (the first lastes 15 mins before defeat, the 2nd like 25, the 3rd like 40, you see where I am going...) to learn the ropes. The 'adaptive tutor' only ever mentions something when it's already (almost) too late and is definitely no tutorial. Basically it just gives some hints.
However this learning by doing was a lot of fun! It's rare that you are defeated in a game and feel like you had a really good time and some crazy story to tell :)
Agree on above that a tutorial map would be awesome. Sure, there's free building mode but that is still learning by doing. I understand some people would like to know most of the stuff beforehand.
I agree in the order issues. Too much stuff is cramped into the architect menu. Especially common things like hauling or mining shouldn't be so deep down.
Also the priority thing. No way to tell people to work on one area. I've had games where caves were full of rubble for ages because nobody got around to it. And you can only rush one piece of rubble at a time. There is a mod that adds a priority function, but this should be in the base game.
More in-game explanation of the mechanics would be nice, but things aren't too hard to figure out by reading things online.