Is infestation a finished game mechanic? I ask because to me it feels like a cheap way out in attempt to to fix some game flaws.
Last time it happen to me it felt so dirty cheap I quit the game and not played it since then.
Yeah, infestation does feel "tacked on" in a bad way.
It makes sense for it to happen once in a game, if the player digs into a place where he FINDS a next of bugs..
But for a huge number of nests to suddenly appear next to the bedroom is just idiotic.
Very cheap mechanic, badly done.
I think that really, it would make a lot more sense if the player would stumble upon infestations when digging. More DFish.
Infestation can work and I like the idea behind it but how it does now is just cheating and that is me saying it nicely.
Maybe Tynan should read "Designing Games" A Guide to Engineering Experiences.
If the book is any good I am Pretty sure it adress the problem I have with how Infestation works for now.
On the one hand, yes it does seem kind of bad that a hive and its attendant protectors just poor out of thin air.
On the other hand, you need to remember that they can dig around in the mountain. Indeed, they were probably here before you were and don't like you digging into their home and lying on their couch eating their cheetos. ;)
Infestations were dialed back quite a bit in A14 from their original version.
Also if you set up a custom scenario when you start you can easily remove them from the game entirely.
Personally I find them fun and an interesting bit of variety to balance out seiges, raids, and alien ships.
I like infestations.
Granted i never dig only 1 tile wide tunnels into mountains that can result in deadly bug-traps for my colonists.
If done right the odds to loss colonists by a sudden infestation in your base can be minimized by a lot.
I'd feel they were more interesting if they didn't only happen in cave areas. I'd like them more if they could happen out in the open too. I feel they'd be more fun if they weren't only a penalty for digging cave colonies, but as a regular event that could occur anywhere on the map as a general event.
Quote from: pdxsean on August 18, 2016, 04:05:26 PM
Infestations were dialed back quite a bit in A14 from their original version.
Also if you set up a custom scenario when you start you can easily remove them from the game entirely.
Personally I find them fun and an interesting bit of variety to balance out seiges, raids, and alien ships.
They where what ?
I thought infestations where dialed up.
The happen lesser, but are bigger and spawn more bugs initally .. at least in my games.
But yes, the fact that they just spawn out of nothing really feels tacked on, especially in a game where everything else has a
(good) explanation
As Counter Suggestion.
Have the Hives Spawn in a generated cave next to the colony and then dig out of the wall .. more shocking and
more realistic.
And/or have them prespawned on the map like ancient chambers, so you can dig into them by accident
Perhaps what is missing for infestations is some kind of timer that tracks the time that colonists spend time in the room. This way, strongly frequented rooms like the food fridge and rooms where colonists spend lots of time in (like the bedrooms) could either get outright dosregarded as possible infestatio0n targets, or be put at the lowest probability of getting selected as infestation targets
Quote from: Michigo on August 18, 2016, 04:34:05 PM
If done right the odds to loss colonists by a sudden infestation in your base can be minimized by a lot.
From what I have seen there are situations when you have a underground base you can lose 1 2 or even more paws at once and there is nothing you can do about it other then not build your base in a cave. So plse tell me, how do you minimized the risk by a lot?
What's next to "balance" the game ? A deathray from the sky with 100% accuracy that bypass all terrain?
The main trick are doors.
Think Submarine or Spaceship.
Compartmentalize your underground base. If you build a bunker anyway go all the way.
This gives the Hives less room to expand quickly and less chance to attack your pawns,
also it increases the chance for your people to get into cover.
In my case I also have embrasures which makes the whole thing like shooting fish in a barrel,
but a a 3 wide corridor interrupted with a door and two walls can be held by 2 shooters and 1 melee against most bugs.
if not, retreat into nearby rooms and the next trio takes over from the next chokepoint.
As soon as the area around a hive is clear send a melee dwarf pawn and dispatch of the hive.
-- Edit --
Thanks for making me look over my base design again, as you can see on the screenshot I identified some weakpoints I overlooked and came up with some additional security features.
-- Edit 2 --
Damn, I would have loved to show off my whole base, but the screenshot got too large to upload.
[attachment deleted by admin - too old]
Just to comment on the thematics: the idea is that the insects have burrowed a hole from undergrown into your base. To make this clearer, they should add a hole terrain type which destroys whatever structure was above it.
Quote from: submarine on August 18, 2016, 06:13:57 PM
What's next to "balance" the game ? A deathray from the sky with 100% accuracy that bypass all terrain?
Death rays are so 2055. In RimWorld times if you want to destroy a planet, you just fire a planetkiller round from a big honking space gun at nearly light speed.
Quote from: Shurp on August 18, 2016, 09:30:43 PM
Just to comment on the thematics: the idea is that the insects have burrowed a hole from undergrown into your base. To make this clearer, they should add a hole terrain type which destroys whatever structure was above it.
My problem is that they only burrow through where you've carved out solid rock...and that's dumb. Why don't they burrow up to the surface anywhere else? Why can't they pop up outside cave areas in the wild? I don't mind the infestations, I just wish they made more sense.
Quote from: submarine on August 18, 2016, 06:13:57 PM
From what I have seen there are situations when you have a underground base you can lose 1 2 or even more paws at once and there is nothing you can do about it other then not build your base in a cave. So plse tell me, how do you minimized the risk by a lot?
Like SpaceDorf showed you should avoid dead ends and small corridors whenever possible.
Your colonists should always have more then one way to escape sudden danger.
Ofc no colony is 100% safe, but rimworld isn't about perfect security anyways.
You can always go the extra mile and be uber paranoid about bugs.
Like having stone walls and coolers (switched off) build into most of them, just to "overheat" aka burn to death any and all sudden infestations.
Am i the only one that laughed at SpaceDorf saying Submarine should think
submarine? :D
Quote from: Michigo on August 19, 2016, 03:41:11 AM
Am i the only one that laughed at SpaceDorf saying Submarine should think submarine? :D
Yea that was kinda funny.
I can handle Infestations in my cave base but when they spawn in my sickbay while I have 2 paws unable to move there isn't much you can do. There was no warning like for instance I could hear them digging or see rock crumble or so...Nothing. This to me is like that death ray example I gave. If the RNG gods hate you you will lose pawns no matter how you prepared, That's bad game play in my book.
All other events have a counter ( work around) or you can avoid it. Infestation is a dice roll on how bad it will be and it can be devastating.
Blight= have enough food stored.
ZZZTs = be smart with your wiring and have spare battery in store.
Flash Storm= don't go outside when there is lighting.
Eclipse..... Well you guys will get my point by now I hope.
There are so many other ways to balance cave bases or make Infestations not a dice roll, Seeing the patchnotes for A15 I think the workload for Tynan got to big as he choice again for a easy way out to fix some problems with friendly fire.
Yeah I sound like a negative nancy I know but that's because I care and love the game.
Srry for the bad English.
I agree insect hive attacks could have been implemeted abit more interestingly. I'm not interested in removing them in my settings, or using mods making them less powerfull or frequent. What I'd like to see is for them to be implemented with abit more sophistication in a future alpha.
I suggest, as so many before me, that they should just be able to break out in spots with a raw montain wall. That way you won't see them in the more established parts of the mountain base with quality walls being built (perhaps also add the prerequisite of flooring in the room).
This way you'll acchieve some valuable and worthy gameplay design goals.
1) You encourage the player more to prioritise making real walls in his mountain base (with more then just the small beauty bonus)
2) Because of this you slow down the mountain base builder abit, and equals/balances out some of the benefits there compared to a base in open terrain that need "real" walls in the first place.
3) This way the player has the tools to prevent infestations in critical areas like rooms for Food Storage or Sleeping Rooms, at the cost of a bigger early Investment in these rooms. This will make for more interesting choices and priorities when building a base in the Mountains, and it's indirectly thanks to the infestation threath.
4) You can keep up the frequency of infestations, as long as the player continues to dig out new ground in the mountains.
5) It will feel more immersive.
6) It opens up for new techs allowing you to build expensive/power hungry devices that protect a certain radius from potential infestations as long as they are powered and are running.
*LOL* yeah, thats a valid reason to have a good laugh :)
I should read the usernames more often.
In my defense. Just calling yourself AllknowingPlayer666 does not make you one.
So the joke is on you submarine :) How could you forget the importance of worst case scenarios and triple backup in a hostile environment ? :P ( just joking )
To actually reply.
Yeah the scenario you describe is pretty much a death sentence ( okay my medbay needs turrets ... )
and not a nice one.
And I am with you on the arguement that just popping the hives in your base is bad Dungeon Mastering.
I posted a few days ago in another thread ( how to get players out in the open again ) that I would prefer the hives where spawned in the rock next to your rooms, from where they dig into your base.
And/or prespawned hives like the hidden chambers
in the gr
I am a strong beliefer that Armok the God of Evil RNGs is really out there stroking his white cat called Murphy
waiting for you to slip up. And there is no such things as being overly prepared.
> I would prefer the hives where spawned in the rock next to your rooms, from where they dig into your base.
+1
I have never had much of an issue with bug events. Other than a way to pause the game when they happen i don't think they need to change much. Just make sure no rooms in your colony have dead ends. The more complex your base, the easier you can move to surround a hive or attack it from multiple angles the better - doors are your friend. Essentially try not to design your base in a linear fashion. Pick a spot in your base, you should be able to get to this location multiple ways from multiple directions. Base complexity is your friend.
Some additional tricks : 1 door covers another door. As one gunman runs behind a door another one pops out of another to fire on the bug hammering on the door teh first gunman hid behind. Another way to conceptualize this is doors should be withing firing range of other doors so that hidden gunmen can pop out and cover the door that's getting hammered by the bug that is pursing the gunman now hiding behind the initial door.
And for god's sake take it off of level 3 speed when an event like this happens, use the pause key a lot. I've watched a few let's players now and they - for some reason i cannot fathom - run their game continuously on speed 3 and then days after an assault or a bug event wonder why their colonists are missing arms and eyes.
One more thing. When you do start digging into the mountains dig like crazy. When you open up the mountain and start to inhabit the deeper portions you will get bugs in yoru bedroom and freezer but if you open up larger areas of the mountain the surface area adn probability that a bug event will hit a vital region will become less. To phrase this another way the amount of tiles that encompass places you dont' want bugs to emerge from should be a smaller number than the amount of tiles under the mountain you can effectively control and deal with at a leisurely pace. Once you start digging there is no reason not to make massive rooms you will leave vacant to reduce the probability bugs will emerge in your bedrooms. I see many people just branch mine for resources adn this works too.
I agree with the sentiments here that the bug event could use a re-write. In my current game, I've had 3 infestations already, barely a year into the game, 2 of which spawned in the prison area. It's more tedious and less fun to deal with than the other events, and it feels very contrived and silly to have 4 hives and 20+ bugs suddenly appearing on top of a room of sleeping pawns.
Quote from: eadras on August 19, 2016, 09:00:14 AM
2 of which spawned in the prison area.
Of all places that cannot be rapidly evacuated the prison is the one place that cannot be. You should never have built you prison under heavy rock. Tynaan specifically made it so you have to make choices and those choices have trade-offs. The choice you made came with a consequence. There is nothing that really forces you to have to dig into the mountain IMMEDIATELY upon the shipcrash.
When Tynaan first put bugs into the game a few versions back I went well over a year before i started digging into the mountain.
I randomized the map, and came up with mountainous tundra. The harsh climate and lack of trees really forced me to dig in. Point taken and less learned though; as soon as I had stonecutting, I should have started building bedrooms, hospital, and prison out from under the mountain.
Candidly, if infestation is a game mechanic you don't like, there are various easy ways to nerf it to the ground. Enough folks find it annoying enough that I'm surprised someone hasn't published a "weaker insects" mod at this point. Perhaps I'll add that to my mod collection.
Quote from: Rafe009 on August 19, 2016, 09:13:53 AM
Quote from: eadras on August 19, 2016, 09:00:14 AM
2 of which spawned in the prison area.
Of all places that cannot be rapidly evacuated the prison is the one place that cannot be. You should never have built you prison under heavy rock. Tynaan specifically made it so you have to make choices and those choices have trade-offs. The choice you made came with a consequence. There is nothing that really forces you to have to dig into the mountain IMMEDIATELY upon the shipcrash.
When Tynaan first put bugs into the game a few versions back I went well over a year before i started digging into the mountain.
This is very true, and I think my proposals has a potential of improving on these gameplay choices even more. But in any case, the things you mention are real additions to the hard choices the player has to deal with, indirectly brought to you by the infestations, and something you can't ignore without being prepared for there to be consequences.
Quote from: CannibarRechter on August 19, 2016, 09:24:58 AM
Candidly, if infestation is a game mechanic you don't like, there are various easy ways to nerf it to the ground. Enough folks find it annoying enough that I'm surprised someone hasn't published a "weaker insects" mod at this point. Perhaps I'll add that to my mod collection.
I think such a mod excists. For me it's a no go installing it, since it won't improve gameplay quality in any way or fashion for me, but rather the opposite. Making the game generally easier isn't what I'm aiming for. A mod doing what I suggested in a few posts up I'd definatly like to try out.
Quote from: Andy_Dandy on August 19, 2016, 09:33:33 AM
I think such a mod excists. For me it's a no go installing it, since it won't improve gameplay quality in any way or fashion for me, but rather the opposite. Making the game generally easier isn't what I'm aiming for.
+1
Quote from: Rafe009 link=topic=24548.msg252641#msg252641
Tynaan specifically made it so you have to make choices and those choices have trade-offs. The choice you made came with a consequence.
The consequence is only RNG depended, that alone makes it bad game play.
An infestation in your colonist's bedrooms is a nightmare. A mech drop in your colonist's bedrooms is a nightmare. Together they balance mountain and open bases.
Mech drops give you a split second for your sleeping colonist to get out of there before they kill him. A lot of people don't know this, but bugs don't attack downed colonists. Meaning if they spawn and insta-down your colonist, you can save them. I guess I would prefer they still give you a short time before they attack, because the idea that enemies are instantly in melee contact with you out of no where does still kind of feel cheap.
My point is, I wouldn't build a prison outdoors either. I had a mech drop right in there and repaint the walls with them once. The safe place in rimworld is offplanet.
i kinda see infestations as easy as they are right now.
in the Options you can turn on to pause the game on alerts.
so you have plenty of time to re-positioning your pawns and deal with the insects.
you can even get out of your rooms, before the first insects spawn.
force the doors open, Lure them into your open Areas, kill them with abuse of doors (aggro-ping-pong).
not that hard.
the only Problem i have with hives is that they are designed to be a "Long-term" threat, but right now spawning inside of your best 10 soldiers isnt all that smart and kinda lame game design.
my solution to this Problem would be to let the hives spawn inside a mountain near you, instead of your base.
it would be an enclosed area that gets revealed on the map.
so the insect would have some "warmup" time and could evolve into a much bigger threat if you dont take care of the Problem. -> digging into the mountain area , into the insect hive.
if you let them evolve. you could have a major Problem later on.
maybe it is just me, but this would make the hives far more epic and not so frustrating for some with the spawning mechanic.
Quote from: SimpleMachine88 on August 19, 2016, 02:01:43 PM
The safe place in rimworld is offplanet.
I laughed hard about this :) Mind if I sig it ?
Also I have some after picture of my last Hive attack.
My Colony lost a whole finger in the Attack :)
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Quote from: SimpleMachine88 on August 19, 2016, 02:01:43 PMThe safe place in rimworld is offplanet.
Until it isn't anymore.
Tynan won't rest til the very last safespace in his game is crushed. :D
To deal with infestations I just did what Tynan suggested and had my colonists fight them with melee weapons.
Of course, this became a lot more viable in A14 when stacks of doom were nerfed, meaning that a narrow hallway can be a good chokepoint instead of a colonist suicide zone.
Just to be clear, I have no problem to beat a hive or anything else in that matter, Insects sieges and poisonships are the easiest to beat due bad agro AI anyway.
Normally I play outside with some self made restrictions.
-No turrets till year 3
-Multiple entrances.
-Open base. (not allowed to wall off large parts of my base)
-No self build choke points.
-Single buildings
-No cheese alowed in any form. ( so much cheese in this game)
All to make the game more interesting and force me to be way more aggressive against treats then needed when building a "good base"
Is the mechanism behind Infestations I dislike, I thought I did explain that pretty clearly but then again my English isn't the best and I have a bit off trouble to put my thought into words.
Quote from: lorebot on August 18, 2016, 11:34:38 PM
My problem is that they only burrow through where you've carved out solid rock...and that's dumb. Why don't they burrow up to the surface anywhere else? Why can't they pop up outside cave areas in the wild? I don't mind the infestations, I just wish they made more sense.
The bugs want to stay underground. They know they're vulnerable out in the open. That's why they live underground in the first place. They just happened to be digging a tunnel through the mountain when they accidentally popped into your base.
Note that if you dig lots of mining tunnels in the rock around your base, the odds of the bugs showing up in your base drop rapidly.