So I thought modding the range for inferno cannons down to 15 would make attacking crashed ship parts work better, but it is still a fail. I had a nice sandbag perimeter set up 25 squares away and my squaddies were happily plinking away at the scythers and centipedes and taking little damage in return. So far so good.
Then I saw the centipedes with inferno cannons slowly crawling into range and getting ready to fire. Oh crap.
So I told my colonists to turn around and run... and they promptly got cut down by miniguns and heavy charge blasters. *sigh*
So what's the answer here? I *can* delete the inferno cannons from the game again, but I figure there has to be a better way. Melee and grenades are not going to work when 5 scythers and 4 centipedes (two with inferno cannons) pop out of a crashed ship part. Weapon range kiting involves way too much micromanagement, it's no fun. What's plan D?
Few emps,grenades(does wonders against mechs) and mass charge rifles and some cover near the ships(i.e. walls/sandbags..)
get a shield bait pawn. send the dude to hide nearby the enemies (it doesn't have to be too close. just closer than your shooters, coz enemies try to shoot the closest target)
enemies will try to attack that target, but if you put him in a good place at a good angle (like walls or mountain), enemies are likely to hit the mountain.
if the tile that the pawn is in catches fire, transfer to nearby tile to extinguish fire, then go back to original spot.
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i think this is the standard tactic for open-field battles. (i've been using this strategy ever since they added the shields in)
it's always about baiting the enemy so that your shooters can focus fire on each enemy, one at a time.
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also, centipedes are uber weak against frags. so once you got their attention with your shield bait. try to get a grenadier as close as possible behind cover, then pop out and throw a grenade at the centipedes between their shooting intervals.
bonus points if you can use a couple of shield baits to force the centipedes into a stack (this makes fragging them so much easier)
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i usually have around 3 brawlers. 2 guys act as shield bait, the last one is the beast master that i send to outflank enemies and assassinate enemy snipers.
beast master can also reinforce the 2 shield baits if enemy brawlers attack them. this is especially great since enemies can no longer melee stack so your pets can act like an insta barricade.
just make sure your shooters don't shoot at pawns already engaged in melee. try to shoot at the enemy gunners instead while your brawlers and wolf/bear army raeps the enemy brawlers.
Try spacing out your colonists if you can and using walls (1x3) minimum so that your colonist doesn't default to "peek a boo" mode, sadly i don't have a method that doesn't require micromanagement.
FINALLY! It took 4 Alphas but people finally figured out what I've been saying for years:
Frags.
Kill.
Mechs!
Because the frags do damage to multiple modules, you have a better chance of hitting important components like the brain or 2nd Ring as opposed to the 4th ring or a foot. Its those unimportant modules combined with a lack of pain threshold that makes guns seem so weak. Sheild Bearers supplement this by distracting mechs and letting the grenadiers get close.
I had to endure so many "Mechs OP" threads to see this day.
If it's just the ship ones that are causing problems, just go with sniper rifles and stay out of their range. 4-5 snipers does quick work of 10-15 mechs without breaking a sweat. Get one of them to fire at the ship from maximum distance, and move them back immediately after. Then move a tiny bit closer and closer as they fire. Easymode.
Quote from: ReZpawner on August 27, 2016, 10:24:11 AM
If it's just the ship ones that are causing problems, just go with sniper rifles and stay out of their range. 4-5 snipers does quick work of 10-15 mechs without breaking a sweat. Get one of them to fire at the ship from maximum distance, and move them back immediately after. Then move a tiny bit closer and closer as they fire. Easymode.
That's how I've been dealing with it. Helps if you have 4-5 good sniper rifles and experts to use them. Feels a bit cheesy though, but the mech AI is programmed to protect the ship, not engage. Easy to exploit that, without risk of injury. Once the scythers are dead, the centipedes are very easy to kill with hit and run tactics, since they are so slow.
When i see a crashed ship part, I instantly build sandbags around 20-25 squares away from the ship in each direction. I make sure my colonists have weapons with a high rate of fire and high damage (LMG, Charge Rifle) and set them up evenly on each sandbag wall. I keep two or three of my worst colonists back and equip each of them with a PS, plus a melee weapon just in case. I rush them over to the ship part and spread them evenly about halfway between the sandbags and the ship. Then, I have one of the shooters fire at the ship, and then instantly undraft and redraft. Out come the mechanoids, and they instantly aim for the PS bait colonists while the gunners whittle down their HP. As i don't at all need to control the shooters, i micromanage the 2/3 PS colonists: Watching the mechanoid guns (Mainly Scythers) reload cones and move my PS guys accordingly. This way, my PS rarely get hit and whittle down their shields. If a sycther manages to take out a shield, I take the colonist behind the sandbag lines and readjust the 1/2 that are remaining, while the hit colonist's shield recharges. Eventually, the mechanoids get killed. If a Centipede is incapacitated, I keep one of the colonists back to finish him off with their weapon. If scyther is downed, I remove their two blades (Under Operations) so I can sell them off, and then use the same method as the previous time to kill the sycther. Once all mechanoids are dead, I create a stockpile out of the way and store them there until I research Machining, or instantly take them apart. I also quickly use a colonist to shoot the ship, as it leaves behind steel, components and a valuable AI core. If this is the first one, I create a 1x1 stockpile where it won't deteriorate and then delete it once the AI Core is in place and forbid it to be hauled by locking the door to the room it is in. This stops the colony wealth increasing 😊
So the general consensus seems to be that personal shields and grenades are mandatory for taking on ship parts. And a fair amount of micromanaging. Which... isn't a whole lot of fun. And none of the advice seems very inferno-cannon specific. The other mechanoids I can take down without too much trouble by building sandbags and hitting them from a fair distance.
Hmmm, I just remembered that I can relocate turrets next to the ship part, along with fully charged batteries. But I can't think of any obvious way to get the inferno cannons to shoot at the turret while the other mechanoids shoot at colonists (which they can't hit easily behind sandbags). Can anyone think of a way to make this work?
Or will sandbags protect turrets as well as they protect colonists from scyther charge lances?
the reason why the shield-bait tactic is not inferno cannon specific is coz it works for most threats that are not pure melee or raids with lots of rocket launchers. (vs pure melee in an open field : it's mostly about checking who the targets are and then letting them run around as bait while the others focus fire on a target)(vs rocket launchers in open field : get close until enemy rocketeer starts aiming, then run away backwards out of range or hide behind a mountain.. or just use an insanity lance or blast them with your own rockets)
the specific thing about centipedes though are the frags. if you can get two or more grenadiers close enough, they can usually kill centipedes in just one or two direct hits. that's the fastest way to kill centipedes. (you can also use mortars or rocket launchers. the frag option is the cheapest, but also the riskiest)
so several guys with frag grenades would be able to take down the inferno cannon equipped centipedes before they could get a shot off?
But this still looks like a recipe for fail. 4 centipedes and 5 scythers, 2 colonists wearing shields as bait and 4 tossing frag grenades, all within a circle of radius 12 (grenade range). One wrong click and a colonist is going to get blasted by metal shards while a scyther claw rips him apart.
Quote from: kuledude on August 27, 2016, 09:31:52 AM
Few emps,grenades(does wonders against mechs) and mass charge rifles and some cover near the ships(i.e. walls/sandbags..)
I once zapped the mechanoids with a debug EMP blast
they got stunned
I zapped them again
They didnt get stunned, instead a text came out that they "got used to" the emp zaps.
Here's my setup to kill downed ships...
Ship => X
Wall => B
G => Grenadier (colonist with frag grenade)
___G_G__G_G___
BBBB_BBBB_BBBB
_______________
_______________
_______________
_______________
_______________
_______________
_____XXXXX_____
_____XXXXX_____
_____XXXXX_____
Walls on one side with 2 1 width holes, 2 grenadiers behind, holes are more or less aligned with the ship sides. Grenadiers make very short work of whatever's there. The wall must, if possible, allow the grenadiers to hit the other side of the ship.
About getting hit, basically 75-80% of rockets hit the walls. The largest danger is scythers as they have a (relatively) high chance of hitting even with the walls.
If you have more people, you can do a "small" wall like this about 15 blocks away, on another direction (aka : NOT BEHIND THE GRENADIERS) :
(direction of the derelic : around 15 blocks away).
WW_WW_WW_WW_WW_WW
SS_SS_SS_SS_SS_SS_SS
S => shooters
W => wall
As the AI shoots the closest first they shouldn't aim for them... but if a few rockets / shots maim the grenadiers your guys are safe.
The only issue with this setup is that you tell goodbye to most miniguns, scyther bodies (scythers bodie that fall next to centipede will probably be blown to bits) and possibly the core AI chip (because the ship is usually blown in the process of taking out the escort). But, it's quite safe for your colonists.
Quote from: Shurp on August 28, 2016, 08:37:57 AM
so several guys with frag grenades would be able to take down the inferno cannon equipped centipedes before they could get a shot off?
But this still looks like a recipe for fail. 4 centipedes and 5 scythers, 2 colonists wearing shields as bait and 4 tossing frag grenades, all within a circle of radius 12 (grenade range). One wrong click and a colonist is going to get blasted by metal shards while a scyther claw rips him apart.
nope. this depends mostly on the situation, which heavily relies on the
player's good judgement. (common sense)
ie :
-if the the mechs are on assault : speed of centipedes vs scythers, means that scythers often arrive long before centipedes does. so the shield-bait tactics works great against scythers since the shield baits attract the scyther attention while letting the others focus fire. meanwhile you can just keep one or two grenadiers on standby until the centipedes arrive.
-if the mechs are defending their crashed ship : this is actually much simpler. just snipe the scythers dead (heck you can snipe anything with patience). but if you want this over quickly, just sneak your grenadiers behind the ship once the scythers are dead and the centipedes are distracted. then just time your grenades between shooting intervals.
-if the mechs crashed in on your base : this is actually the easiest. (depending on your base design) since there are plenty of corners and doors to let your grenadiers get closer for the kill.
gist is :
frag it. the rest is common sense based on the current situation (i regret to say this, but git good sounds appropriate when it comes to combat. play more RTS games like starcraft or something to get more experience)
the other way to bypass the "git good" approach is via prepping. (ie : prepare your turrets or build your "combat arena" specially designed to beat X opponent. etc.)
coz even with only 3 colonists with a pistol and a survival rifle as the main gunners and then using the last dude equipped with a knife as a bait, a centipede is still beatable. swapping a frag for the knife would make that battle a cake walk..
as for the "scenario" you mentioned about "4 centipedes and 5 scythers" vs "2 shield baits and 4 grenadiers"... using only grenades is kind of a weird choice, especially based on your pawn count coz the ratio seems a bit off. (this falls to what i called common sense part) (edit : 5 scythers + 4 centipedes vs 6 pawns.. sounds kinda unlikely, unless you have very high wealth compared to your actual combat capacity, coz as previously stated in other threads, threat is affected by wealth. so 6 pawns shouldn't really be spawning 9 mechs, unless your base is already old and prosperous)
but if you only got 6 people. i think it's better if you only got 1 shield bait and 1 grenadier, while the rest are gunners. this is why i mentioned other RTS games like starcraft. since what you mention is like someone talking about zerg rushing with a dozen zerglings against a fully-packed bunker with a siege tank on artillery mode for backup. you need to learn the right tools to use at the right time for the right situation.. otherwise, you get ganked.
but what you seem to be looking for as a reply is : "if i have X, this means i automatically win" <--- that's highly unlikely.
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edit :
to go in-depth on the inferno cannons. let's break down attack pattern.
-how does inferno cannons attack? : they aim slow and are very inaccurate. but they compensate via explosions and flames.
-so what do? : to minimize affected colonists getting hit, you can either spread them far apart OR give the centipede something enticing to shoot at. (shield bait) the reason why shield bait is key is coz it can usually survive indirect inferno cannon shots without injuries. the only reason to use more than one shield bait is when dealing with lots of enemy gunners, so that your shield-baits can swap positions while the other regenerates its shield back. (the other is just standby)
-so what the heck are the frag grenadiers for? : they're mostly just to make the killing of centipedes faster, since a frag explosion can easily break the other useless appendages of centipedes so that the gunners can kill them faster by shooting at the critical limbs. (either that or the frags kill the centipedes) but that's the gist of using explosives like frags or rocket launchers or mortars against centipedes. (you don't need grenadiers to kill scythers since those dudes are like glass cannons, but explosives are good against centipedes who are like tanks)
Snipers and patience?
I'm not looking for "Click - you win", but I'm also looking to avoid "your colonist is running around screaming in circles... oh dear and now he's dead."
An inferno cannon equipped centipede can walk over to snipers before they can kill him, and the scythers will happily shoot the colonists when they run away.
The frag grenade / wall idea (thanks kasnadava) sounds like it could work. If the grenades take down the inferno cannon equipped centipede quickly, then the grenadiers can run off (wall providing cover) and the rest of my crew can then provide endless plinking until the others die.
Will the scythers sit there and shoot at range 10, or is there a danger they will charge and start slicing and dicing?
Personally, I think it's crazy to go toe-to-toe with mechs. The scythers can instant kill any character at any time, and have ridiculous accuracy. I learned this the hard way in my first successful playthrough. One of my original 3 colonists was an amazing shot and all around badass, so I made her a brand new set of power armor (exceptional) and power helmet (legendary), and sent her out with a charge rifle against a psychic ship that landed in my base. The turrets and my snipers engage the mechs but were taking damage from the scythers, so I had her pop out of a door in the opposite direction to try to take out one of the scythers. It snap turned and shot her in the head, legendary power armor helmet nearly destroyed. I don't even fuck with anything other than artillery and sniper teams firing from out of their weapon range now.
The inferno cannons are very deadly if you sit there and exchange fire with them, but are so easy to deal with in the open with hit and run tactics. The only time I've used the emp/frag grenade combo is when they drop down right in the middle of my base, and there's no room to run.
Quote from: Shurp on August 29, 2016, 10:31:03 PM
I'm not looking for "Click - you win", but I'm also looking to avoid "your colonist is running around screaming in circles... oh dear and now he's dead."
An inferno cannon equipped centipede can walk over to snipers before they can kill him, and the scythers will happily shoot the colonists when they run away.
The frag grenade / wall idea (thanks kasnadava) sounds like it could work. If the grenades take down the inferno cannon equipped centipede quickly, then the grenadiers can run off (wall providing cover) and the rest of my crew can then provide endless plinking until the others die.
Will the scythers sit there and shoot at range 10, or is there a danger they will charge and start slicing and dicing?
Thanks =).
No, the scythers don't run "melee" toward you at that range. They try to shoot your guys behind the walls. And succeed a bit often for my taste, probably due to the low range... so I found it safer to priorize them with the grenades, rather than the centipede with the inferno cannon.
Another good point with this setup, when you have more colonists, is that the wall blocks sight. So you can have 2 or 3 colonists behind the wall for firefighting / rescue duty (keep a firefighter "on duty" and release him when the rocket passes through). In in the case one of your colonist get hit but can still move, he can flee rather safely. Last, when the rocket do get behind the walls, most of the time the hit colonists run around... behind the wall.
I'll try to do a video so show how it works.
EMP mortar are my friends in crashlanded ships. We wait for a lucky hit just around a corner, then swarm with everything we have: fire, frags, melee, ranged wepons properly micromanaged.
In general I use these hiding ways:
-single tile walls.
-single square rooms carved in mountins here and there closed by a wood door. I do plenty of these alla around the map. They are good for random safe but mostly enemy IA waste time to go to destroy these doors whit no loss by my side except a useless door.
Quote from: Shurp on August 29, 2016, 10:31:03 PM
I'm not looking for "Click - you win", but I'm also looking to avoid "your colonist is running around screaming in circles... oh dear and now he's dead."
An inferno cannon equipped centipede can walk over to snipers before they can kill him, and the scythers will happily shoot the colonists when they run away.
The frag grenade / wall idea (thanks kasnadava) sounds like it could work. If the grenades take down the inferno cannon equipped centipede quickly, then the grenadiers can run off (wall providing cover) and the rest of my crew can then provide endless plinking until the others die.
Will the scythers sit there and shoot at range 10, or is there a danger they will charge and start slicing and dicing?
Here, behold.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDI3QcHBB48&feature=youtu.be
This setup I did really fast, and I didn't place the walls on the right far enough, so they're shooting there. Also like an idiot I forgot that mortis is incapable of violence, and to restrict her. And, finally, I also forgot to un-home the area so my non-drafted pawns don't go extinguishing fire (like mortis did). I was also unlucky because most of the mechs spawned on the other side - usually it's more "even".
Still. You can see how effective my set-up is - I easily won despite litterally not following everything that I proposed. More so if they hit the right walls. It's possible to make it even better with a few tricks from this thread (like setting up the closest pawns with a shield behind a wall).
On other conditions: I do have 2 mods, EPOE and petfollow - which apparently are causing errors. I set-up dev mode to create the downed ship event & to give grenades. That's it. No other modifications.
So I watched the video. You're right that the frag grenades help a lot in taking down the mechs quickly. That firefight lasted all of 30 seconds :) But the key thing seems to be the walls. The inferno cannon did get a shot behind the walls but your pawns then went screaming in circles behind it which is definitely safer than out in the open. Walls definitely work better than sandbags. Would it help to drop a sandbag in the opening between the walls?
OK, just a followup; the walls worked beautifully. My guys with charge rifles peppered the inferno cannon equipped centipedes and incapacitated them before they could get more than two shots off. And those shots hit the walls and torched some grass, that's it. After that it was the usual slugfest. My guys took a few shots but then all the centipedes were incapacitated. The injured walked home and the healthy punched the centipedes to death :)
Frag grenades are nice but any weapon with a high fire rate will do the job as long as you have a wall to stop incoming inferno cannon blasts. And I think the sandbags I built in the space opening helped. At least I didn't get hit too often anyway.
walls or mountains. just use whatever is available since not all combat can be planned before hand.
i think the notion of "cover" has already been mentioned several times before. as in : put your shield-bait behind cover.
shield-baits provide the greatest survivability with little to no injuries (especially when you got a bunch of brawlers which really doesn't contribute that much in a mech fight).
i just find it weird that someone actually has to spell out that don't put your shield bait/troops right in front of the mech and put it behind cover. (ie : full cover. ie : walls or mountains. whatever is available)
that's like the very basic of rimworld combat.
Quote from: Shurp on August 30, 2016, 06:32:38 PM
So I watched the video. You're right that the frag grenades help a lot in taking down the mechs quickly. That firefight lasted all of 30 seconds :) But the key thing seems to be the walls. The inferno cannon did get a shot behind the walls but your pawns then went screaming in circles behind it which is definitely safer than out in the open. Walls definitely work better than sandbags. Would it help to drop a sandbag in the opening between the walls?
Quote from: Shurp on August 30, 2016, 10:48:13 PM
OK, just a followup; the walls worked beautifully. My guys with charge rifles peppered the inferno cannon equipped centipedes and incapacitated them before they could get more than two shots off. And those shots hit the walls and torched some grass, that's it. After that it was the usual slugfest. My guys took a few shots but then all the centipedes were incapacitated. The injured walked home and the healthy punched the centipedes to death :)
Frag grenades are nice but any weapon with a high fire rate will do the job as long as you have a wall to stop incoming inferno cannon blasts. And I think the sandbags I built in the space opening helped. At least I didn't get hit too often anyway.
Thanks =)
True, that set-up works with any high damage / ROF weapons. Frags are just here for efficiency.
I've not found the sandbags helping a lot, because, as far as I've been able to tell:
- the cover provided by sandbags does not stack when behind a wall,
- it does not prevent the rockets from moving,
- cover is too low to prevent being hit by scythers
That said, sandbags are very short to build. They do stop fire, in case you still have grass & trees around.
Quote from: keylocke on August 31, 2016, 12:31:11 AM
i just find it weird that someone actually has to spell out that don't put your shield bait/troops right in front of the mech and put it behind cover. (ie : full cover. ie : walls or mountains. whatever is available)
that's like the very basic of rimworld combat.
It's obvious to put your pawns behind cover. The new A15 tutorial even shows you how!
...how to use sandbags. Which are in the "security" tab. It's obvious to use those - it's not obvious that walls are a far superior solution, especially against inferno cannons.
Also, https://www.xkcd.com/1053/. Both I and Shurp are some of today's lucky 10,000. :)
In the past I have relied on sandbags for cover. Against scythers, miniguns, and heavy blast cannons this is all you need. The key difference is that walls stop blast radius effects, and I had not thought to build walls in the middle of an empty field before. Which is why inferno cannons were a prob.
Trees and rubble are helpful in normal firefights but won't help you vs inferno cannons either.
I just placed a firefoam popper in my kill box to deal with any incoming inferno cannons. Good luck setting anything on fire now slugs!!!!
The foam can be cleaned up after the fight is over. Then I just build a new popper :-)
No mention of IEDs? They do a lot of damage(destroy ship, kill scythers, and heavily damage the centipedes) if all are activated at once when a ship is attacked.
Tried those IED, honestly... feels like a waste of resources to me.
Traps don't always explode to boot. Apart when using the semi exploit where you "seed" via using the build button, and your builder get all ammos, then cancel and there is a neat 1 ammo stack on the ground that explodes too.
That said, it could be a set-up problem on my part.
Quote from: kasnavada on August 31, 2016, 02:24:32 PM
Tried those IED, honestly... feels like a waste of resources to me.
Traps don't always explode to boot...That said, it could be a set-up problem on my part.
IEDs are a total of 10 steel and one component, iirc.
Set them with no more than two spaces in-between each with all of them right up next to the ship. You don't have to cover it 100%, but less than 75% isn't worth it. By setting them close to each other like that, they all go off at the same time just by one activating even if the mechanoids spawn on the empty squares.
You do get a small portion of the materials post-explosion and they haven't damaged what the ship drops in my playthroughs yet.
The downside is that once the ship is destroyed, the surviving mechs can't guard a ship that no longer exists. They will advance towards your base slowly so hit-and-run tactics on the surviving centipedes is your best option. Throw in some emps/frags for the more tenacious of them.
I guess another downside is that scythers aren't just incapacitated so you can't disassemble their blades for your own use.
Quote from: Aatxe360 on August 31, 2016, 02:38:31 PM
IEDs are a total of 10 steel and one component, iirc.
Hmmm, this is (relatively) new. They used to be 60 steel (50 + 1 artillery shell) which was pretty expensive. So I forgot about them. Now they're an artillery shell and a component. Admittedly that's still not *cheap* -- you're not going to want to plant a dozen of them.
Ok. You don't.
You have less than half of them built.
The other half you forbid to build as soon as the artillery shell gets placed.
Cheaper, and they still explode.
Quote from: Shurp on August 31, 2016, 06:50:38 PM
Quote from: Aatxe360 on August 31, 2016, 02:38:31 PM
IEDs are a total of 10 steel and one component, iirc.
Hmmm, this is (relatively) new. They used to be 60 steel (50 + 1 artillery shell) which was pretty expensive. So I forgot about them. Now they're an artillery shell and a component. Admittedly that's still not *cheap* -- you're not going to want to plant a dozen of them.
I'm probably wrong about the amount. I'm not in-game atm and even if I were I don't have the tech to check. I also remember someone mentioning that the wiki doesn't get updated as much anymore.
:)
Still, walls cost nothing but stone, which is abundant. It does run the risk of getting hurt. Fair trade-off IMO.
To each their own. Suggestions were given.