OK, from what I can tell, a beer now takes 10 days to brew and lasts all of 2 hours. ???!!! This is totally useless. I suppose beer is still useful to sell or in an emergency to knock someone out -- though beating him over the head with a wooden log is much easier. What gives?
Smokeweed makes my colonists useless and I'm not going to turn them into addicts with anything stronger. The whole drug system seems pretty screwed up now. All I want is some Prozac to keep them from going nuts. What's all this other junk for?
Wakeup and go-juice are useful in long combat situations when you have people becoming tired and stressed out.
Quote from: Shurp on September 12, 2016, 09:59:15 PM
Smokeweed makes my colonists useless and I'm not going to turn them into addicts with anything stronger. The whole drug system seems pretty screwed up now. All I want is some Prozac to keep them from going nuts. What's all this other junk for?
Well yeah, exactly. It is "junk" as it is modelled after real-life drugs. So why shouldn't it have quite some serious negative side effects?
Also you could just don't manufacture drugs or you could actually manufacture them but forbid them for your own colonists and only sell them to traders.
Looking at the wiki I can see what Serenity posted about using Go-Juice and Wake-up as "combat drugs" (mostly Go-juice there).
Smokeleaf.. oh well it gives them happiness and helped my colony to "power" through an exceptionally bad time, when 3 out of 5 colonists died and the other two had to work a lot + all the mood debuffs from "my frined ... died". They were at the edge of major breakdown a lot of time, unforbidding the smokeleaf helped to smooth that out for some time.
Wake-up(workers dream),Go-juice and Yayo(+35 mood without any debuffs :O ) are the best drugs out there(lucy also if you can afford it). The other drugs are pretty much outbeaten by these drugs.
Drugs are more powerful than you think, especially when you stack their bonuses on top of other bonuses.
Here's an example of a 1000% builder speed drugged on wake up and luciferum.
Just manually give them a shot of wake up right around sleep time (around 2200 for default) and they will regain full rest bar ready to power through the night at whatever you need to do.
Its like having no sleep cycles (except when you start building up tolerance to the drugs).
This will actually allow you to speed through the game like mad. (completed flying away 10 colonist on cassandra intense in 70 days).
Though i have to admit beer and smoke joints are weak, but they're really only kept for preventing your colonists from going berserk.
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Lmao prozac, where withdrawal is crippling depression, and an occasional effect of hallucinations, and lack of proper emotions.
Spoiler alert, no drug is without consequences. Antidepressants often make people very unstable. Most school shooters in the past were on them.
I'd really enjoy instead production of healthy food, for many (but small) buffs to body and mind. Nothing HUGE, but no side effects either, and producing good meals would help health and mental wellbeing. Maybe a meal with ginger, fruits, and greens raising slightly healing, immune system, and mental processing.
I'm just mad that fermentation seems to have zero tolerance for going out of the temperature range.
I was replacing a door between two interior rooms with temps stable in the 20s. For whatever reason, the game decided that when you combine two rooms at T = 21, the new temperature should definitely be 35. That promptly killed a few hundred bottles worth of fermentation.
After that happened a second time (different interior door), I just gave up and ripped out all of my beermaking gear. It was a huge time / space / resources sink even when it was working.
The time delay on beer seems like perhaps it hasn't been incorporated into the value of beer? I'm enjoying my beer production personally, but it seems like maybe there is a cost to production that isn't being properly included in its market value...
The weed is good in serious mood cases. But beer used to be good for general long term mood management. Does anyone still use it for this? A colonist can now easily blow through a case in two days.
I do, but more like just because it's there. I agree that it's a small buff that's overshadowed by other things you can get more easily. But for a few guys, producing some beer doesn't really detract too much from other work either. If you need a lot of it, then yeah it's not really worth it.
I think this is a more general temperature issue... Items must be treated like colonists, able to withstand extremely brief high, or low temperature.
If you put a beer in the freezer, it doesn't instantly freeze, it slowly cools. So you would think meat, beer, ect, would do the same, adjusting to environmental temperature, and slowly adjust to changes, so putting meat in freezer takes time to freeze, and taking it out takes time to thaw.
I didn't pay much attention to this update, because I'm pretty busy on RL and I just started a play of Civ V... And that's gonna take a while.
How much beer is produced by keg? (I'm gonna call that thing you put the wort a Keg) I work alot for breweries and can look a little more in detail for this subject
The alcohol tolerance ruined it all.
5 hops per wort kegs hold 25 wort. 1 fermented wort makes one beer.
Kegs are around 50 wood and 20 steel iirc. Its mostly that beer production takes a while, and goes bad in bad temperature in the keg. But really, you can still produce it in the scale as before IF you have lots of kegs, and hop production, and don't mess up building insulation
Now we only need to ferment more things, like agave, berries, corn, rice...
Well it is easy to mess the wort. But it's not ruined, I would opt in reduced production instead of no production. You can make beer in a 40°C location, and if the wort is at a high temperature, it may spoil the beer. Or create something else. But can still be drinkable and ebriagated with.
Also, different temperatures and conditions influence on the taste and amount of alcohol of the beer. Makes a good mod. An automatic beer system that is the size or bigger than the research bench should also be pretty cool.
Traditionally, beer and other low-alcohol beverages (cider, mead, etc), were usually crafted as a means of ensuring safe drinking water and as a storage of calories, instead of pure alcoholic bliss.
Maybe if we could just produce more beer per barrel or hop plant,it seems like a steady way of making money or being used as barter chips with traders. even if it is next to useless with strong drugs nearby. sort of like mugs in DF "i went to dwarf fortress and all i got was this stone mug"
Beer definitely does not hold up if you're in it for the money.
Per bottle, it's what? 5 silver each on a good day. That's ~1 silver per unit of hops if you're lucky and nothing goes wrong.
Pemmican is easily 1.3 silver each. Or about 2.3 silver per generic food stuff and a lot less hassle. Not every trader will take it, mind you. But at least you can run a colony off the stuff in the mean time.
Quote from: carbon on September 13, 2016, 07:38:55 PM
Beer definitely does not hold up if you're in it for the money.
Per bottle, it's what? 5 silver each on a good day. That's ~1 silver per unit of hops if you're lucky and nothing goes wrong.
Pemmican is easily 1.3 silver each. Or about 2.3 silver per generic food stuff and a lot less hassle. Not every trader will take it, mind you. But at least you can run a colony off the stuff in the mean time.
i was saying thats what we could turn it into
edit:we could turn beer into a good trading good,basically as its main function*
Understood. Your mixing of tenses had me confused.
The increase in difficulty in producing beer is relatively minor. If you have climate controlled bedrooms you have no problem making beer, it just takes a lot of time. But there seems to be little point to expending that time. You can grow gobs of smokeweed in that time and easily get and keep your colonists as high as you like. Joints also sell for a nice price too.
Beer just seems like a collossal waste.
Quote from: carbon on September 13, 2016, 09:55:19 AM
I'm just mad that fermentation seems to have zero tolerance for going out of the temperature range.
I was replacing a door between two interior rooms with temps stable in the 20s. For whatever reason, the game decided that when you combine two rooms at T = 21, the new temperature should definitely be 35. That promptly killed a few hundred bottles worth of fermentation.
After that happened a second time (different interior door), I just gave up and ripped out all of my beermaking gear. It was a huge time / space / resources sink even when it was working.
This right here is the one thing that
really chafes my nuggets in a15.
Heat wave outside. My brewery is in it's own air conditioned room, and exits into another air conditioned room. Both rooms are readily held at a nice temperature via excessive numbers of air conditioners.
Pawn enters the main room from outside (45C or something like that) at the same time a pawn enters the brewery... Temp in the brewery, as a result, spikes up high for like a fraction of a second, and 12 casks of wort fermenting are ruined in an instant.
Tynan has spoken about how he wants to adjust this, which is good - it's ridiculous that the casks of wort at a specific temperature (17C) would themselves change in temperature that quick.
The temperature requirements are good, as Beer is basically Smokeleaf with less downsides (smokeleaf murders your worker's productivity) so it requires more setup, but it's way, way too fragile right now.
Put your brew tubs in air conditioned bedrooms. (I assume your bedroom doors open into hallways that aren't usually 30'C and not to the outside). And since the beer is spread out amongst multiple rooms they won't all get ruined at once.
But beer is far inferior to smokeweed for mood management. I ran some numbers. Smokeweed takes 8 units to make and smokeleaf yields 11 in 6.84 days. Getting high lasts a day from what I can tell. So each day of mood management costs 8*6.84/11 = 4.97 square-days of growing.
Beer takes 5 units of hops to make but only lasts .1 days. Since you don't need to be inebriated all day and you can get .25 days out of two beers I could push that to .2. So you need 25hops/day per colonist. Hops take 2.705 days to grow and yield 8. so 25*2.705/8 = 8.45 square-days of growing.
And I didn't factor in the extra hassle of building and managing the vats to ferment the beer...
The next version of Rimworld needs a distillery so my colonists can get tanked properly. Or at least sake so I can make use of my surplus rice instead of having to use crop space on a separate crop.
Quote from: Shurp on September 13, 2016, 07:47:49 PM
The increase in difficulty in producing beer is relatively minor. If you have climate controlled bedrooms you have no problem making beer, it just takes a lot of time. But there seems to be little point to expending that time. You can grow gobs of smokeweed in that time and easily get and keep your colonists as high as you like. Joints also sell for a nice price too.
Beer just seems like a collossal waste.
Well, is it? Whether it hops or smokeleaf, both require growing, harvesting, hauling and producing... the only difference with beer is the long delay between the production-step and the end product. this is the time it spends in the barrel, and the cost here is temp control. If it's a significant energy expenditure, it might not be worth it. A crafting spot doesn't require energy.
BUT, smokeleaf imposes a severe movement and manipulation penalty. Even though it's a powerful source of joy, the hit to production can be rough. Even more so when you have few colonists and many, many priorities. Beer is definitely better, but it requires an investment in infrastructure. I would say smokeleaf if a great stop-gap for the early colony, as long as you schedule; otherwise the colony has Afroman on repeat and nothing gets done. Once you get beer production up, it's a much better recreational drug, imo.
Quote from: Wintersdark on September 15, 2016, 04:35:09 PM
Heat wave outside. My brewery is in it's own air conditioned room, and exits into another air conditioned room. Both rooms are readily held at a nice temperature via excessive numbers of air conditioners.
Pawn enters the main room from outside (45C or something like that) at the same time a pawn enters the brewery... Temp in the brewery, as a result, spikes up high for like a fraction of a second, and 12 casks of wort fermenting are ruined in an instant.
Too much reliance on failure-prone coolers. Insulate your brew room with double-walls and at least 2 stacked doors (airlocks). Keeping a passive cooler or two built as a failsafe is a good idea, but that depends on availability of wood.
I'm interested in experimenting with a "cellar"-type setup on a mountain map, using the natural insulation of the mountain to avoid these fluctuations.
Quote from: sadpickle on September 17, 2016, 06:20:41 PM
Well, is it? Whether it hops or smokeleaf, both require growing, harvesting, hauling and producing... the only difference with beer is the long delay between the production-step and the end product.
No, there is one other considerable difference. Hops takes twice as much time as smokeleaf to grow for the same duration of colonist mood improvement (see above).
If this were the only difference, then you could argue that the superior quality of beer (as you point out, it doesn't impact colonist usefulness nearly as much) makes the additional growing time worth it. But then there is the added infrastructure of beer brewing.
One or the other -- slower growth or infrastructure -- I could put up with, but both is just too much.
part of my problem with this is that humans have been brewing beer for at least 10,000 years now, and probably more. Archaeologists thing that the development of agriculture wasn't so much for food as it was to ensure a steady supply of grain for beer.
literal stone-age technology, and yet we can't do it reliably without electricity and coolers.
Of course, this ties in with the general lack of "primitive" anything in the game, from non-technology based coolers and worthwhile weaponry.
Want to know how Neolithic farmers kept wort cold? After sealing it up in barrel/bucket/clay pot, they would bury it underground.
Excellent point. Digging a hole in the ground to escape the heat is *ancient* technology... tribals should have access to that so they don't die during heatwaves. And it's a good way to preserve potatoes too.
The whole tribal gametype is really, really weird as a result of that.
You never see people actually stay as low-tech tribes, they always rush electricity and firearms.
Disappointing
Well, tribals don't stand much of a chance against mechanoids or charged plasma cannons. It's only natural to want to climb the tech tree.
Maybe if tribals had a recruitment advantage to replace losses -- something like the "wanderer joins" event only with 6 at a time. And a bonus to food production and animal management since they're native to the planet.
What about adding cellar floor tile requring a lot of work to make and acting like a passive cooler acting now? And maybe like a passive heater too - in our lands (boreal forests) people often use special cellars as a "passive heaters" for winter to protect, for example, potatoes from freezing. Or it tiles may act as rooms inside mountain acting now - balancing temperature/ For balance this cellar tiles can be very ugly and cause cabin fever very fast.
I usually just have my colonists make wine. Not so much because I need it for mood, but more because they like to sit around and just have a glass or bottle of something now and then while they sit on their recliners watching tv after a long day expanding the colony towards the edges of the map. :) Plus it feels fancier!
Reading this thread makes me feel bad about using smokeweed. I set everyone to a policy of using it up to once a day if their mood falls below 40. I find it's great for preventing major breaks and makes minor breaks far less frequent. How come you say it makes your colonists "useless"? Mine seem to work just fine.
It lowers movement and some other stats. I use it manually in extreme cases because I don't want people to be stoned all the time.
Quote from: TekDragon on September 19, 2016, 05:53:10 PM
Reading this thread makes me feel bad about using smokeweed. I set everyone to a policy of using it up to once a day if their mood falls below 40. I find it's great for preventing major breaks and makes minor breaks far less frequent. How come you say it makes your colonists "useless"? Mine seem to work just fine.
Increases hunger and tiredness, decreases movement (!) and consciousness (!!). It doesn't seem like much but it's absolute murder not only on work speed, but quality of work as well.
Also not great when there is a raid and you rush everyone to the defense line. "Hey, why is she going so slow? Oh, damn, she's high"
And yeah, consciousness is the other bad one. It means they work slower even when sitting somewhere.
Quote from: Shurp on September 18, 2016, 11:54:00 PM
Well, tribals don't stand much of a chance against mechanoids or charged plasma cannons. It's only natural to want to climb the tech tree.
Maybe if tribals had a recruitment advantage to replace losses -- something like the "wanderer joins" event only with 6 at a time. And a bonus to food production and animal management since they're native to the planet.
If you are going to do the exact same thing (ie, use electricity, firearms, etc) that you would do as a spacer colony, then why include the option to play as tribals?
I really wish there was a way to remove or disable firearms and such from the game, for tribal playthroughs at least.
It's spoiled by high temp, spoiled by low temp, long to make and few benefits.
Unless you have lots of pawns and lots of land to make it and store it in perfect conditions may be of some use.
But otherwise it's totally worthless investment of time and effort.
The double punch of consciousness *and* movement is what is brutal with smoke weed. Consciousness already reduces movement, so adding movement lowers speed over 50%. I don't know if this is intentional.