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RimWorld => Ideas => Topic started by: glob on December 21, 2016, 07:10:36 AM

Title: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: glob on December 21, 2016, 07:10:36 AM
- Weapons in v.16 in my opinion are too cheap, especially if we take into account that components, plasteel and steel are finite resources (well, almost) but skins and wool are renewables.  Price of clothing is much higher than price of weapons. We, like, having a haute couture model house on the planet or what?

- Doctors make catastrophic mistakes too often even with a  decent 15 or 16 skill and no disabilities. With operation on eye, such as "install bionic eye", it means instant death. Is this supposed to be so? Maybe just remove the eye instead of killing the pawn?
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Deer87 on December 21, 2016, 08:02:36 AM
Maybe he sneezed really hard when cutting the optical nerves, thus thrusting the scalpel into the patient's brain?
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: glob on December 21, 2016, 08:12:53 AM
Operation performed by a decent doctor should not be a russian roulette gamble with 4 of 6 slots of barrel filled with bullets.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: JimmyAgnt007 on December 21, 2016, 10:17:43 AM
Its RIMworld, where they play russian roulette with automatics.

That being said, I do agree with your points. 
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: daduhweewah on December 21, 2016, 12:21:25 PM
I concur whole heartedly. I have lost like 1/3 or more of my joywire patients. It is insane trying to do anything, I have had zero problems when putting bionic legs on a patient, but a joywire ends bad like half the time when my drs are levels 13-13-12-10 (have 4 currently).

Given, I have not had hospital beds on a lot of those- but losing 1/3+ of my patients getting a joywire seems excessive when my personal view of what a joywire would be is somethin gthat is slid under the skin or skull. Not something that requires a massive cut through the skull and "crushes" my patient to death or gashes their torso?

Small complaints for an incredible game though...

Solution? Just boost the operation success stat in ur new games you start obv.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: glob on December 21, 2016, 01:44:12 PM
In my last game I have both hospital beds and monitor, clean silver floors and a doc with 16 skill and no disabilities. Have lost approx. every second operation with catastrophic failure, including three deaths from three attempts of eye implant installs (100%). Permadeath mode, rough. IMO it is closer to bug than to suggestion.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Serenity on December 21, 2016, 07:10:14 PM
Surgery failure was ridiculous in A15 already, but it seems like it got only worse if anything :(
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: glob on December 23, 2016, 09:12:56 AM
In A15 it was actually more or less ok, I don't remember any deaths with good doctors.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Ninjakitty66 on December 24, 2016, 01:22:06 AM
I agree with the weapons, as for the eye operation well that's another story. Seeing how the eyes are close to the brain, well I'd say it would depend on the factors mainly on whom is doing the surgery.

If you have someone with 0 medicine trying to install a bionic eye in someone, I expect them 100% to die. I think the factor would heavily depend on the person's medicine skill, I could be wrong but that's how it should be if not.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Serenity on December 24, 2016, 07:57:44 AM
Quote from: glob on December 23, 2016, 09:12:56 AM
In A15 it was actually more or less ok, I don't remember any deaths with good doctors.
It wasn't uncommon. I've had a level 20 doctor cut his daughter's head off. Or death during a nose surgery.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Sola on December 24, 2016, 09:21:47 AM
In addition to the skill of the doctor, are you saving your best medicine for this?  Are you using a medical bed?  With the right precautions, there shouldn't be any chance of death.

The cost of glitterworld medicine is less than 10% of a bionic bodypart.  Always buy a couple glitterworld medicines if you see them, then forbid them once they're in storage.  When performing your surgery, unforbid the glitterworld medicine.

Medical beds should be used prior to surgery.  It's not worth risking a pawn on a surgery when there's an easily accessible tech that improves success.  Same as glitterworld medicine, forbid your regular medicine until you're able to craft a medical bed (Or if the situation is dire and required real medicine).

Your doctor's consciousness and manipulation need to be as high as possible to ensure success.  Your doctor didn't lose an arm, did he?  Not suffering any withdrawal symptoms?

Finally, skill level.  I'm sure you've got this very high, but remember that you can operate on prisoners indefinitely if you have the medicine for it.  "Install denture" "Remove part: Denture" every day as soon as the prisoner is healed.  You won't hurt your town's morale like you would with organ harvesting, and you'll gain over 4000 xp in the skill per day (If burning passion).
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: glob on December 24, 2016, 06:41:05 PM
As I said, doctor with clean health tab, no disabilities, 16 points in medicine. Medical bed, vitals monitor, clean silver floors, everythig but glitterworld medicine, used the standard one. In A15 there were no problems whatsoever in such circumstances. That's why i said the chance of catastrophic failure in A16 is too high, and killing the patient in case of such event is ridiculous. In permadeath mode it makes operations on head just no-no.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: sadpickle on December 24, 2016, 06:55:17 PM
If colonists can build a spaceship that is capable of transporting them to new solar systems, they can probably bang together a functioning clinic and do basic surgery without killing people half the time. That said I think poor medics should be terrible, and man are they ever terrible in A16. Gonna need to find a way to generate more animal injuries for training.

Having a doctor should be super important, because a doctor generally knows his shit. Not everybody has the acumen or intelligence to be a doctor (I don't!) They don't just hand out degrees. Doctor GPAs are pretty much always 3.0+. A good doctor is only as good as his supplies of course, so medicine should still be a requirement in all cases.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Hieronymous Alloy on December 25, 2016, 12:30:09 PM
A decent skill doctor in a clean hospital using glitterworld medicine has a virtually guaranteed chance of success installing bionics now.

Basically glitterworld is the new normal, medicine is the new herbal, herbal is about as effective as you'd think it would be from rubbing plants on people. Save glitterworld for surgeries.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Mztr44 on December 25, 2016, 08:55:22 PM
Luciferium is good for raising surgery success chance stat once you can afford a steady supply of it.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: koisama on December 27, 2016, 03:14:04 PM
I did a brief research on the case.
Since A15 we had the following changes:
1. Ridiculous failures
2. Operations give damage to nearest body parts, and not to the whole body
3. Medicine potency change

First one just insta-kills your patient if you're unlucky and there's no way to get around it.
Second one might kill your patient by applying damage to near parts. Brain is fairly close to eyes, so probably that's your explanation.
Third one is the worst of them all, as it nerfs not only herbal, but even normal medicine below A15 herbal level (A15 herbals were 0.75, A16 normal medicine is 0.7).
Oh, and bed quality is not used for surgeries.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: LordMunchkin on December 28, 2016, 05:40:30 AM
Even with a hospital bed, medicine, and a level 15 doctor, a so called "Planet-class" level of skill, I'm barely getting 50/50 good treatments. I don't even plant herbal medicine anymore because it's completely useless for anything but 15+ skilled bionic doctors WITH hospital beds. Unless the dev intends for no one to ever use herbal medicine, I think some rebalancing is in order.  :P
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Hieronymous Alloy on December 28, 2016, 09:03:48 AM
Use herbal medicine to make real medicine and to treat animals.

Use real medicine for treating diseases.

Use glitterworld medicine for surgeries.

I have not had a surgery failure yet in A16 at all -- because I always use a skilled doctor with glitterworld medicine.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: OFWG on December 28, 2016, 10:28:04 AM
Quote from: Hieronymous Alloy on December 28, 2016, 09:03:48 AM
I have not had a surgery failure yet in A16 at all -- because I always use a skilled doctor with glitterworld medicine.

There you go, GW medicine shouldn't be a requirement for a good doctor to have a chance at success. This supports the OP's point.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: daduhweewah on December 28, 2016, 10:55:13 AM
I have used glitterworld  since posting in this thread also and have had zero mistakes. I have to say I like this. I think it makes you have to have a nicer ingredient to perform surgery.

I think everyone will like it to once you get the hang of it. Like one of the posts in here said, buy all the glitterworld med you can find (they pop up with exotic traders) forbid them in storage, and unforbid them when you perform a surgery.

I think the glitterworld medicine should cost more also, like 300-500 per but should be a  bit more abundant in the traders stock, thus you could use them for severe injuries to colonists aswell.

If anyone complains that it already costs too much, you are crazy. I have a colony with 100k silver after 4 in game years. It is not hard to build up silver. Just have a couple people making statues non stop, make as much clothing as you can, and don't make weapons to sell.

Weapons sell prices def need edited, all the other prices are pretty good, megasloth wool clothing is too cheap considering it acts as alpaca wool muffalo wool etc. These should all be about the same.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Hieronymous Alloy on December 28, 2016, 11:32:49 AM
Quote from: OFWG on December 28, 2016, 10:28:04 AM
Quote from: Hieronymous Alloy on December 28, 2016, 09:03:48 AM
I have not had a surgery failure yet in A16 at all -- because I always use a skilled doctor with glitterworld medicine.

There you go, GW medicine shouldn't be a requirement for a good doctor to have a chance at success. This supports the OP's point.

You have a decent chance of success without it, it's just required to guarantee success. This makes a certain amount of sense -- people die in surgery in actual hospitals all the time.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Lightzy on December 28, 2016, 05:15:48 PM
Weapons are made cheap because you can get infinite weapons from massive raids.
I've yet to play a build of rimworld where I actually built a weapon. That'd be almost pointless since you get superior sniper rifles from raids starting on like the 3rd raid.

There's no real solution I think.

You can make it so that raiders don't drop weapons but that would be very immersion breaking.

You can make it so that all dropped weapons are of really low structural integrity, which is fine but guns don't really deteriorate so much with use that I've noticed so it's not likely to make any difference

You can make guns deteriorate with use but you'd STILL be overflowing with weaponry from raiders

Hm

Dunno.
No real solution that I can think of
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Hieronymous Alloy on December 28, 2016, 05:17:52 PM
gun durability effects dps so that's a useful nerf to raider weapons.

I usually do craft myself sniper rifles, charge rifles, and assault rifles once I have a high skill crafter because excellent/masterwork/legendary guns have a very large bonus to damage and accuracy.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: dearmad on December 28, 2016, 09:25:01 PM
Quote from: LordMunchkin on December 28, 2016, 05:40:30 AM
Even with a hospital bed, medicine, and a level 15 doctor, a so called "Planet-class" level of skill, I'm barely getting 50/50 good treatments. I don't even plant herbal medicine anymore because it's completely useless for anything but 15+ skilled bionic doctors WITH hospital beds. Unless the dev intends for no one to ever use herbal medicine, I think some rebalancing is in order.  :P

My level 11 doc has transplanted a lung, a leg, implanted a brain soother. With normal meds. A normal bed (superior) designated as hospital and not other equipment.

I think there is some selective experience remembering going on here when a favorite person dies.

I personally like the risks! I mean really... new eyes? Not simple...

And if weapons were expensive think about that- they are unlimited: generated by waves of raids... talk about a harvest.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: dearmad on December 28, 2016, 09:28:12 PM
Quote from: Lightzy on December 28, 2016, 05:15:48 PM
Weapons are made cheap because you can get infinite weapons from massive raids.
I've yet to play a build of rimworld where I actually built a weapon. That'd be almost pointless since you get superior sniper rifles from raids starting on like the 3rd raid.

There's no real solution I think.

You can make it so that raiders don't drop weapons but that would be very immersion breaking.

You can make it so that all dropped weapons are of really low structural integrity, which is fine but guns don't really deteriorate so much with use that I've noticed so it's not likely to make any difference

You can make guns deteriorate with use but you'd STILL be overflowing with weaponry from raiders

Hm

Dunno.
No real solution that I can think of

So... introduce ammo requirements? Loads of useless weapons, relatively cheap. And your resources go to ammunition crafting and purchasing? Ammo is sort of a currency in a lot of post apoc worlds. As long as the mechanism to load weapons and sustain a firefight isn't overly complicated.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: LordMunchkin on December 28, 2016, 10:52:10 PM
Quote from: dearmad on December 28, 2016, 09:25:01 PM
My level 11 doc has transplanted a lung, a leg, implanted a brain soother. With normal meds. A normal bed (superior) designated as hospital and not other equipment.

I think there is some selective experience remembering going on here when a favorite person dies.

I personally like the risks! I mean really... new eyes? Not simple...

You like a not insignificant chance for an "expert" in medicine to kill someone while putting on an eye patch? I honestly think it's inane. Might as well add spontaneous combustion and a chance for people to choke on their food. Or hell just bring back the traitor event! Because even that would be more realistic and enjoyable than the rate of failure we're seeing amongst supposedly trained surgeons this alpha.  :P
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Deer87 on December 29, 2016, 06:51:08 AM
I must agree that the current setting is a bit... harsh.

One of my prisoners lost a leg during his escape attempt. I still wanted to recruit him, so I decided to treat him a peg leg. My lvl 12 doctor experience a minor failure during the operation... he stabbed his patient to death
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: daduhweewah on December 29, 2016, 09:26:25 AM
Solution for weapon pricing.

A very drastic drop in price from an unused weapon at 100% - to a weapon at 99% or lower- and very drastic price drops all the way down.

I don't think the weapons need to be priced outrageous to where you clean up raids and make a bunch of silver. BUT you want to be able to craft weapons profitably, so you can sell all your legendary weapons or all your good/superior weapons (whichever route you like to take)

I think the clothing could use a price cut once it is used also, I am getting 200-300 for a normal cloth parka with 60% on it sometimes. It almost doesn't seem completely stable in the way they are priced.

But weapons are not lucrative to make, they are way tooo expensive to buy from traders so it puts you in a spot where you are making weapons with no out if you don't want the created weapon. I had a legendary assault rifle I made and if I recall correctly it was worth 406$ to a trader, which is just garbage cause it has 7 components in it, and 60 steel (60ish) so I get a 133% markup for making a legendary weapon. (or lose money if I had bought components from pirates or exotic)

So a drastic price drop from 100% unused, to 99% (like 70%-80% drop), and for every level that prices normally change in the game, the price COULD drop at the normal rate since it had to first huge drop or it could still drop more drastically, either way. This would make it to where you can make guns, and also all raider guns would have a max of 99% on them when picked up to make them not as valuable. This would essentially be like the dead man clothing (well it would be exactly like the dead man clothing)
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Lightzy on December 29, 2016, 09:27:23 AM
Quote from: dearmad on December 28, 2016, 09:28:12 PM
So... introduce ammo requirements? Loads of useless weapons, relatively cheap. And your resources go to ammunition crafting and purchasing? Ammo is sort of a currency in a lot of post apoc worlds. As long as the mechanism to load weapons and sustain a firefight isn't overly complicated.

Yeah I often suggested this to be core (there's a mod for it). It'll also affect turret spam a bit maybe.

But it's a bit confusing how it'll work. How much would ammo cost to make? 1 steel? Given that right now ur builder can make like 40 beds in a day's work, how long will it take to make a bullet?
How do you make it a non-negligible investment so that you totally circumvent the bullet rationing without it ever becoming an issue? (Kind of like with food currently)



EDIT: More suggestions:

Make damaged weapons more likely to jam, explode in your face, etc, in addition to firing slower. I'd say make a 50% integrity weapon 50% likely to jam, 25% likely to explode.
This will go towards making the suggestions in the post above (drastic price shifts for damaged weapons) more sensible and also affect the player in making weapon buying/making more desirable (or at all desirable)
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: OFWG on December 29, 2016, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: daduhweewah on December 29, 2016, 09:26:25 AM
Solution for weapon pricing.

A very drastic drop in price from an unused weapon at 100% - to a weapon at 99% or lower- and very drastic price drops all the way down.

This here. It reflects reality, too - once you walk a gun out of the store the price drops by 1/3 before you even shoot it. :)
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: glob on December 29, 2016, 01:46:02 PM
The new high chance of failure with standard medicine is ok, and losing the expensive bionic part is also ok, it is possible to live with it. The problem is that failure instantly kills. AFAIK there is no other feature in game with so high chance of killing. The only thinkg to prevent unacceptable losses is glitterworld medicine. On permadeath this makes the choice just binary - either you use glitterworld medicine or you don't do operations at all.
I'd suggest maim in case of serious failure, not kill. At least it will be possible to recover the pawn later with another operation(s).
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Lightzy on December 30, 2016, 12:02:43 AM
Quote from: OFWG on December 29, 2016, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: daduhweewah on December 29, 2016, 09:26:25 AM
Solution for weapon pricing.

A very drastic drop in price from an unused weapon at 100% - to a weapon at 99% or lower- and very drastic price drops all the way down.

This here. It reflects reality, too - once you walk a gun out of the store the price drops by 1/3 before you even shoot it. :)

Your reality maybe, but definitely not rimworld reality. A gun with a scratch on it is just as effective as one without.
That's why I'm thinking there should be great failure risks attached to damaged weapons
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: OFWG on December 30, 2016, 11:56:06 AM
Quote from: Lightzy on December 30, 2016, 12:02:43 AM
Quote from: OFWG on December 29, 2016, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: daduhweewah on December 29, 2016, 09:26:25 AM
Solution for weapon pricing.

A very drastic drop in price from an unused weapon at 100% - to a weapon at 99% or lower- and very drastic price drops all the way down.

This here. It reflects reality, too - once you walk a gun out of the store the price drops by 1/3 before you even shoot it. :)

Your reality maybe, but definitely not rimworld reality. A gun with a scratch on it is just as effective as one without.
That's why I'm thinking there should be great failure risks attached to damaged weapons

We're talking specifically about pricing, not utility.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: OFWG on December 30, 2016, 11:57:09 AM
Quote from: glob on December 29, 2016, 01:46:02 PM
The new high chance of failure with standard medicine is ok, and losing the expensive bionic part is also ok

Failure chance is a balance issue that's obviously still being tuned, but losing the part is a flat out bug and not 'ok'.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: JuicyPVP on December 30, 2016, 12:39:11 PM
I agree with both points of OP, but especially the doctor one.

Quote from: OFWG on December 30, 2016, 11:56:06 AM
Quote from: Lightzy on December 30, 2016, 12:02:43 AM
Quote from: OFWG on December 29, 2016, 11:00:59 AM
Quote from: daduhweewah on December 29, 2016, 09:26:25 AM
Solution for weapon pricing.

A very drastic drop in price from an unused weapon at 100% - to a weapon at 99% or lower- and very drastic price drops all the way down.

This here. It reflects reality, too - once you walk a gun out of the store the price drops by 1/3 before you even shoot it. :)

Your reality maybe, but definitely not rimworld reality. A gun with a scratch on it is just as effective as one without.
That's why I'm thinking there should be great failure risks attached to damaged weapons

We're talking specifically about pricing, not utility.

You are buying the wrong guns IRL then. None of the weapons I purchased in the last year dropped price more than 10% for being "walked out of the store". Secondly- When raiders attack you with pistols and clubs, you would think they wouldn't care your assault rifle is at 98%. The assault rifle still kills better than the pistol or(and?) club at 100%.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: OFWG on December 30, 2016, 10:05:55 PM
Quote from: JuicyPVP on December 30, 2016, 12:39:11 PM

Quote from: OFWG on December 30, 2016, 11:56:06 AM

We're talking specifically about pricing, not utility.

You are buying the wrong guns IRL then. None of the weapons I purchased in the last year dropped price more than 10% for being "walked out of the store". Secondly- When raiders attack you with pistols and clubs, you would think they wouldn't care your assault rifle is at 98%. The assault rifle still kills better than the pistol or(and?) club at 100%.

Are you being intentionally thick about this? Any gun you buy becomes much less pricy, just like a car does by being driven off the lot. It becomes used, it becomes much less pricy. That's just the way an economy works when you have no shortage of new items and has nothing to do with actual utility.
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Jstank on January 01, 2017, 06:30:06 PM
I have had the same issue with surgery success however my doctor was also suffering from alcohol addiction withdraw... connection!?
Title: Re: two issues in 16: weapons are too cheap; failure when operation on eyes == death
Post by: Lightzy on January 02, 2017, 03:37:30 PM
Quote from: OFWG on December 30, 2016, 10:05:55 PM
Quote from: JuicyPVP on December 30, 2016, 12:39:11 PM

Quote from: OFWG on December 30, 2016, 11:56:06 AM

We're talking specifically about pricing, not utility.

You are buying the wrong guns IRL then. None of the weapons I purchased in the last year dropped price more than 10% for being "walked out of the store". Secondly- When raiders attack you with pistols and clubs, you would think they wouldn't care your assault rifle is at 98%. The assault rifle still kills better than the pistol or(and?) club at 100%.

Are you being intentionally thick about this? Any gun you buy becomes much less pricy, just like a car does by being driven off the lot. It becomes used, it becomes much less pricy. That's just the way an economy works when you have no shortage of new items and has nothing to do with actual utility.

No he's right dude. It doesn't make sense in Rimworld terms.
It's not america or somewhere where there's no war, no real use for guns, and so guns are another vanity item whose price is affected by its aesthetic.

In rimworld terms think, I dunno, Syria or something, where nobody gives a shit about a scratch or even blood spots or surface rust, if it works and they can use it to defend their lives.

So no, items in Rimworld won't lose much value for being at 90% instead of 100%.

That's why you need utility excuses, like jams and explosions and stuff, to sway the player into manufacturing his own or purchasing

BEST of course is to just lower damage and fire rate exponentially as the weapon's integrity degrades. Jams and explosions perhaps would be a bit too random and annoying