A lot of late-game problems with colony management are related to the current Hauling system. Currently, haulers can easily get occupied hauling just 5-10 berries across the base every time someone cooks a single meal, ignoring harvested wood, crops, and drop-pod items disintegrating out in the open. Here's my proposal for making the Hauling system more efficient with minimal extra complexity.
Behind-the-Scenes: Change Hauling PrioritiesCurrently, hauling priority is based solely on the colonist's distance to the item-to-be-hauled. This means haulers will often get occupied items back & forth across the base while items outside the base walls decay. I would change hauling priority to be based on 3 criteria:
- Spoiling items get top priority.
- Deteriorating items get second priority, behind spoiling items.
- Then which item to haul is determined by proximity.
All spoiling items will be hauled first, followed by all deteriorating items, and only
then will stable (non-spoiling/non-deteriorating) items be hauled. This is to reduce how much manual hauling assignment is needed to stockpile items before they spoil/deteriorate.
Two New Types of StockpilesThe biggest change is the addition of 2 new types of stockpiles:
- Gather Stockpiles: Gathers together multiple small quantities of items into larger stacks for more efficient transportation.
- Supply Stockpiles: Stores stacks of items that are gradually depleted, such as ingredients for cooking, meals for the dining room, and kibble for animals. Only requests more items once it drops below a certain amount.
Here's a rough flowchart of how it would work:
(http://i.imgur.com/DkyVVKT.png)
Gather Stockpiles: The Technical DetailsGather stockpiles are a special type of stockpile that have
no priority. They are compared to other stockpiles based solely on distance. They also
only accept items that aren't already in a stockpile.
Once there's a
full stack of items on a Gather Stockpile, or
X hours have passed since the first item in a stack was hauled onto it, that stack will be hauled to a standard stockpile. The X number of hours can be set via slider, replacing the Priority setting. This is to give haulers time to gather a large stack before it's moved.
Gather Stockpiles only hold items temporarily, either to put them someplace safe for future hauling, or build large stacks before hauling them.
(http://i.imgur.com/llf0Vyz.jpg)
Here, a Gathering Stockpile is used to collect wood, berries, stones, and animal corpses into large stacks for more efficient transportation later. You could set a roof above it to keep wood from deteriorating, or get fancy and set it in a small freezer to keep food from spoiling while it awaits transport.
Other uses include:
- Set one up next to a battlefield to quickly get looted weapons/apparel underneath a roof before they deteriorate.
- Set one up next to fields outside your colony to temporarily store harvested crops without hauling them all the way back to your colony.
- Set one up next to a stove or drug lab to stack up meals/drugs until you have a full stack ready to transport to your stockpiles.
Supply Stockpiles: The Technical DetailsSupply stockpiles have
no priority. Instead, they automatically request more items
once they drop below a certain threshold. This % threshold can be set via slider, replacing the Priority setting.
For example, you can make a 2-tile Supply Stockpile for meals in your dining room and set it to request more items once it drops below 50% capacity. Once it drops below 10 (out of 20) meals, it will automatically request another stack of meals. This is more efficient than a high-priority standard Stockpile, which would immediately request more meals the moment a single meal is eaten.
Other uses include:
- Set up Supply Stockpiles next to production tables to provide ingredients.
- Supply Stockpiles for medkits in Hospital Rooms.
- Artillery shell Supply Stockpiles for mortars.
(http://i.imgur.com/YSfSBaG.jpg)
Here, all 3 types of stockpiles are used to make a hauling-efficient kitchen. Two 1-tile Supply Stockpiles (one for meat, one for veggies) are set adjacent to the stove with a 33% threshold. A Gather Stockpile for meals with a 4-hr timer is also set adjacent to the stove. A large standard Stockpile is set in the freezer. The cook delivers his meals to the Gather Stockpile because it's closer than the freezer Stockpile; once the Gather Stockpile has a full stack of 10 meals or 4 hours have passed, those meals are hauled to the freezer. The cook takes his ingredients from the meat & veggie Supply Stockpiles next to the stove; they don't request more items until their stack has dropped below 25 items (33% quantity). This keeps the cooking running steadily without requesting a hauler every time the chef cooks something.
I've also set up Supply Stockpiles for the dining room and dog kennel. The dining room has a 2-tile meal Supply Stockpile with a 50% threshold; the kennel has a 4-tile kibble Supply Stockpile with a 75% threshold. These thresholds ensure only full stacks of supplies are hauled to them.
I really like your ideas! ;D
You can simulate gathering stockpiles by having a lower priority stockpile further away. The problem is they will take stuff from the actual stockpile to gathering stockpile, so you need to manually change priorities in stockpiles. Or a new feature.
When does a gathering stockpile take priority over a normal stockpile ? When it's closer ?
I think this rule would be more intuitive:
* stuff is taken from GATHERING stockpile once a stack is FULL (or time passes)
* stuff is taken to GATHERING stockpile if it's closer than normal stockpile
* stuff is added to SUPPLY stockpile once it's EMPTY (it has an empty square).
How about just modifying hoppers to work like SUPPLY stockpile and be done with it ?
Quote from: b0rsuk on January 15, 2017, 02:16:04 AM
You can simulate gathering stockpiles by having a lower priority stockpile further away. The problem is they will take stuff from the actual stockpile to gathering stockpile, so you need to manually change priorities in stockpiles. Or a new feature.
Or forbid the items in your current stockpiles so colonists can't carry them. I suppose you could just restrict a colonist from reaching a higher-priority stockpile; I haven't tried it yet, and it seems like a messy, manual-intensive way of accomplishing it.
QuoteWhen does a gathering stockpile take priority over a normal stockpile ? When it's closer ?
Yes. If the hauled item currently isn't in a stockpile, it goes to the closest gathering stockpile or high-priority normal stockpile. Items already in stockpiles aren't taken to gathering stockpiles.
QuoteI think this rule would be more intuitive:
* stuff is taken from GATHERING stockpile once a stack is FULL (or time passes)
* stuff is taken to GATHERING stockpile if it's closer than normal stockpile
Only if it's not already in a stockpile, else you'd get circumstances where an item is shuttled back & forth between two Gathering Stockpiles.
Quote* stuff is added to SUPPLY stockpile once it's EMPTY (it has an empty square).
I also considered this, but that would mean that 1-tile Supply Stockpiles would be temporarily empty mid-use, which could lead to unusual behavior like a cook marching halfway across the map for veggies whenever the stockpile runs out. Refilling at 25-33% capacity leads to much smoother work.
QuoteHow about just modifying hoppers to work like SUPPLY stockpile and be done with it?
Also considered it, but uses up extra steel and people may want multi-tile Supply Stockpiles. (For instance, a 3-tile meal Supply Stockpile for a large colony.)
Create a 'gathering' stockpile by putting a normal unrestricted stockpile near harvest areas. After the harvest and collection are done, forbid the items in the gathering stockpile and they will get moved to another that allows them.
Quote from: bhavv on January 15, 2017, 09:08:31 PM
Create a 'gathering' stockpile by putting a normal unrestricted stockpile near harvest areas. After the harvest and collection are done, forbid the items in the gathering stockpile and they will get moved to another that allows them.
Feasible, but requires memorizing the highest priority of your other stockpiles and matching it. And God help you if your highest priority for different item types differs.
There are mods that already implement most of these features.
Quote from: MikeLemmer on January 14, 2017, 08:30:25 PM
- Spoiling items get top priority.
- Deteriorating items get second priority, behind spoiling items.
- Then which item to haul is determined by proximity.
Can't find a link right now but I think it was something along lines of "Enhanced Hauling".
Supply stockpiles % to haul is in mod "Hauling Hysteresis" https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=26958.0 .
However, even with these mods there are several other major sources of hauling inefficiency in game.
First: Pawns reserve only one target stack to haul, so when your grower harvests potatoes the following happens:
- Potatoes are spoiling and deteriorating so they get high haul priority.
- Every hauler pawn reserves single stack (like 5 potatoes) and runs across the map for it.
- They happily haul 5-10 potatoes each, blocking hauling workflow as long as grower is working.
(This isn't a Hauling-only problem.Same happens with building: I definitely don't need each of few tiles of wooden wall/conduit built by different constructor. They waste much more time traveling than actually working.)
Second: Pawns haul to single target pile, even if it needs only 1 item and there is empty applicable stockpile on next tile for overflow.
Third: If you try to battle overflow problem by having single huge stockpile in freezer, it will end up badly fragmented (lots of partial stacks). This doesn't seem to happen when piles are reasonably small (patchwork of piles in freezer).
The only solution that really works for me is having an excess of hauling capacity provided by an army of hauling animals (at least 2-3 per colonist, whose primary job is not hauling), so that stuff gets where it needs to be despite all the inefficiencies involved.
Quote from: talar1408 on January 16, 2017, 12:54:31 AM
There are mods that already implement most of these features.
Can't find a link right now but I think it was something along lines of "Enhanced Hauling".
Supply stockpiles % to haul is in mod "Hauling Hysteresis" https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=26958.0 .
True, but since this is Early Access, I'm sticking to the vanilla game, since that's what we're supposed to be testing. Using mods to patch out the annoyances makes it hard to gauge how annoying of a problem they are.
QuoteHowever, even with these mods there are several other major sources of hauling inefficiency in game.
First: Pawns reserve only one target stack to haul, so when your grower harvests potatoes the following happens:
- Potatoes are spoiling and deteriorating so they get high haul priority.
- Every hauler pawn reserves single stack (like 5 potatoes) and runs across the map for it.
- They happily haul 5-10 potatoes each, blocking hauling workflow as long as grower is working.
A problem which a Gathering stockpile near the field would help alleviate. I would also suggest tweaking the harvesting AI to stack crops, either by harvesting 3x3 squares at a time and stacking up all those crops, or hauling harvested crops to the nearest partial stack.
I really like some of these thoughts.
I also dislike some of the inefficiency the comes with the current state of stockpiles.
the idea of having 2 types of stockpiles (with different mechanics) would be one way of dealing with some of these issues.
I had a idea which came at the problem from the other side.
My thought was wouldn't it be cool if we could create specific hauling task through a sort of bill system, rather than letting the AI create all hauling task.
the idea is that you can make a bill for a pawn to come pick up X materials once per time period (hours, days, weeks, etc) take materials from stock pile A and deliver it to stockpile B.
These Scheduled Hauling task would be the highest priority but only happen when sufficient materials are in the stock piles and when the receiving pile has a open tile, thus you could set the materials to either X number of stacks or all materials present.
it would work best between stock piles of equal priority, but in general giving us more options to control how hauling works would make it so we don't need to use higher priorities often.
The approach by zones rather than bills or tasks for pawns is better, because it's less micromanagement.
There is a much simpler and more convenient way to solve all our hauling headaches by just slightly modifying the inventory\loading stuff related to the A16 caravan stuff to massively increase the "hauling output" of all pawns.
Come on, it is unrealistic and annoying that a pawn who can haul quite an amount of stuff in a caravan, or a stack of 75 steel, cannot possibly haul 25 steel and a component, or 20 berries+20 potatos at the same time.
I would imagine something rougly similar to the current "find nearby stacks of identical resource to haul too" AI, and combining it with something like a "micro caravan" AI that upon receiving a hauling job would look for items that are queued for hauling in an area, prioritizing areas with lots of queued hauling jobs and no handler, pick a weight of items from that area that the pawn can carry (the caravan mode already has carry weight handled), preferring items destined for the same or nearby stockpiles, load them, and haul them to the stockpiles to be dropped (caravan AI already has the last part i think).
As a bonus, add option for the hauler to also make use of a caravan animal he is a master of.
Due to the carry weight it won't get abuseable for hauling bricks or other crazy heavy stuff, but will greatly reduce silly "i can't carry tiny quantities of few different kinds of items at the same time" problem that is making hauling and micromanaging its issues and inefficiencies such a headache.
Most problems are solved with Intelligent Zone Management. The supply zone can be simulated with a zone of higher priority and Hauling Hysteresis.
BUT: The Gather stockpile is a must! I want that, I need it. The sooner the better.
PS: Your suggestion of hauling priorities brings problems of its own. You can easily get one hauler per cook trapped in a supply chain that's not even working, prioritising spoiling items would enforce that.
Quote from: Thyme on January 17, 2017, 02:33:45 AMMost problems are solved with Intelligent Zone Management. The supply zone can be simulated with a zone of higher priority and Hauling Hysteresis.
A problem that is fixed by a mod is still a problem.
QuotePS: Your suggestion of hauling priorities brings problems of its own. You can easily get one hauler per cook trapped in a supply chain that's not even working, prioritizing spoiling items would enforce that.
Not if the Cook delivers the Meals to a 2-tile Gather stockpile adjacent to him. They would have priority due to the spoiling, but the Gather stockpile's hauling delay would prevent a Hauler from moving it until there's a full stack of Meals. As for the ingredients, that would be fixed simply by treating Supply stockpiles as an endpoint for Hauling: anything that's supposed to be on it is never moved to other stockpiles. True, it's not a perfect solution, but I don't think anything short of a coding language for hauling would be.
Huh... almost makes me wish there was a Make X per Day option for production.
Quote from: b0rsuk on January 16, 2017, 03:21:33 PM
The approach by zones rather than bills or tasks for pawns is better, because it's less micromanagement.
This isn't entirely true because if you introduce the distinction of a stockpile being a Gathering stockpile or a supply stockpile then you have to ask the question: does a stock pile have to be one or the other? or can they be both? can you filter which gathering piles feed into a particular supply stockpile or does the AI just send it where ever it can. In the end you would have to still carefully setup your stockpiles to greatly improve hauling efficiency.
Either way I agree on the basic point that it would be a welcome improvement to give the players more options to influence on how stockpiles work.
I would say that I would want options to tweak how stockpiles work but also options to tweak hauling task, why should we only want one or the other, why leave one or the entirely up to the AI.
Quote from: MikeLemmer on January 14, 2017, 08:30:25 PMCurrently, haulers can easily get occupied hauling just 5-10 berries across the base every time someone cooks a single meal
Stopped reading right here.
If pawns work inefficiently, it is your fault. Not the game.
It is a part of the game to learn to use the tools provided to help your pawns work more efficiently.
If you add a huge pile of AI checks to make it more efficient, you both lag the game considerably, and remove an important element in player choice and skill.
A problem fixed by a mod is a solved problem.
*needs to be in vanilla anywayQuoteNot if the Cook delivers the Meals to a 2-tile Gather stockpile adjacent to him. They would have priority due to the spoiling, but the Gather stockpile's hauling delay would prevent a Hauler from moving it until there's a full stack of Meals.
On second thought, this would require a decent amount of AI rewriting. Not only that, more complex systems require more player thought which quickly gets confusing. New players will likely see the following as bug instead of a feature:
QuoteSupply stockpiles as an endpoint for Hauling: anything that's supposed to be on it is never moved to other stockpiles
Quote from: Thyme on January 17, 2017, 12:38:51 PM
A problem fixed by a mod is a solved problem.
A
gameplay problem fixed by a mod is a
poorer game.
Quote from: Britnoth on January 17, 2017, 11:50:55 AM
Quote from: MikeLemmer on January 14, 2017, 08:30:25 PMCurrently, haulers can easily get occupied hauling just 5-10 berries across the base every time someone cooks a single meal
Stopped reading right here.
If pawns work inefficiently, it is your fault. Not the game.
It is a part of the game to learn to use the tools provided to help your pawns work more efficiently.
If you add a huge pile of AI checks to make it more efficient, you both lag the game considerably, and remove an important element in player choice and skill.
So what's your alternate solution using the tools provided? Manual hauling micromanagement? Tricks involving zone placement? You don't get to make an uncontested blanket statement about how inefficient pawns are the players' fault without providing a counter-example of how the players can fix it.
QuoteA gameplay problem fixed by a mod is a poorer game
Hauling Hysteresis is a vanilla friendly mod which needs to be in vanilla. Imagine that it will happen two alphas from now:
"A gameplay problem fixed by an update is a poorer game."
Quote from: Britnoth on January 17, 2017, 11:50:55 AM
Stopped reading right here.
If pawns work inefficiently, it is your fault. Not the game.
It is a part of the game to learn to use the tools provided to help your pawns work more efficiently.
If you add a huge pile of AI checks to make it more efficient, you both lag the game considerably, and remove an important element in player choice and skill.
Didn't want to say anything, being new at the game and all, but I was thinking this last night when I was fighting the tendancy to reply...
I would like to see a copy / paste option for bill details similar to the work schedule copy / paste thingy, that stuff is neat. Maybe an invert button, disallow everything that is currently allowed and vice versa. Makes it a lot quicker to configure 2 different stockpiles. Brainfart...
But as it stands, I just don't recognize any of these problems. Sure, workers get pre-occupied in my games as well, but that's mainly because I have more tasks than I have people, and even that requires little to no effort to correct.
Quote from: Thyme on January 17, 2017, 04:54:04 PM"A gameplay problem fixed by an update is a poorer game."
Agreed, players get spoiled, stop solving problems when there is an update or mod out there that can solve them for you...might as well watch a movie then...
A good way of measuring this is how much do you run the game at full time compression, and how long does it take you to resolve an issue before you can return to that compression after something happened that required your attention? That time that you didn't spend at full is the actual game time you've spent, the time you enjoyed the game, the entertainment value of the game (with the exception of seeing your colony function as a well oiled machine, but that's only fun for an hour or so). Of course, imho...
Quote from: RolanDecoy on January 17, 2017, 05:07:31 PM
Quote from: Thyme on January 17, 2017, 04:54:04 PM"A gameplay problem fixed by an update is a poorer game."
Agreed, players get spoiled, stop solving problems when there is an update or mod out there that can solve them for you...might as well watch a movie then...
You are essentially saying that RimWorld got worse with every update. I guess you're still playing the first release?
Enough OT. I'd like to suggest a minor change to Mikes OP:
+Spoiling items outside the kitchen should get higher priority (maybe weighted with distance), to get all the food inside. Deteriorating stuff is a smaller issue, I have no problem micro'ing it.
Quote from: RolanDecoy on January 17, 2017, 05:07:31 PM
Agreed, players get spoiled, stop solving problems when there is an update or mod out there that can solve them for you...might as well watch a movie then...
you know hearing this makes me remember when my dad taught me to do maintenance on my Car, I asked him where the wrench and other tools were and he told me that I was lazy and spoiled and shouldn't be asking for TOOLS to take away my problems. (sarcasm)
those tools where just a crutch which didn't give me the ability to solve problems that I otherwise couldn't. I just needed ingenuity, effort, and two hands to solve ALL of my problems.(more sarcasm)
I'm not sure who here is asking for a mod or update to take problems away from us. I would like to see some tools and features to help us deal with problems we currently can't deal with and to give us the ability operate at a level of efficiency that we currently cannot reach.
oh and here is a quote
(It's best to have your tools with you. If you don't, you're apt to find something you didn't expect and get discouraged.) --Steven King, On Writing: A Memoir of the Craft
Quote from: Thyme on January 17, 2017, 12:38:51 PM
A problem fixed by a mod is a solved problem. *needs to be in vanilla anyway
A poorly-solved problem, I would say. Not only is there the risk of it becoming unusable later because the mod's author quit updating it along with the patches, but there's always the issue of it conflicting with other mods, or accidentally introducing bugs. It still works, but it's basically duct tape and spit with no guarantee how long it'll last.
QuoteA good way of measuring this is how much do you run the game at full time compression, and how long does it take you to resolve an issue before you can return to that compression after something happened that required your attention? That time that you didn't spend at full is the actual game time you've spent, the time you enjoyed the game, the entertainment value of the game (with the exception of seeing your colony function as a well oiled machine, but that's only fun for an hour or so). Of course, imho...
There is a difference between pausing the game to plan out an expansion, figure out what to craft next, or tweak work priorities... and pausing the game to micromanage colonists into hauling spoiling meat from a drop-pod or making sure they aren't shooting your own colonists in the back. The former is enjoyable, the latter is actively driving me away from playing further.
And while I suspect there may be some fancy way to max out hauler efficiency through a combination of allowed zones and work schedules/priorities, it shouldn't be necessary to jump through that many hoops to solve the fundamental problem of "ONLY REFILL THIS STOCKPILE WHEN IT DROPS BELOW HALF STOCK". I got into RimWorld because I want to figure out how to build a good base, not because I want to (figuratively) figure out how to remove a nail without a hammer.
Resource flow is managed with intelligent zone configuration. This is a core feature of RimWorld and one of the major reasons why I like this game. Hauling Hysteresis and your suggested zones add even more complexity to that system (aka more tools to choose from).
Quote from: Thyme on January 19, 2017, 01:51:04 AM
Resource flow is managed with intelligent zone configuration. This is a core feature of RimWorld and one of the major reasons why I like this game. Hauling Hysteresis and your suggested zones add even more complexity to that system (aka more tools to choose from).
As I asked Britnoth, care to provide an example? Because while I've considered the idea, the finickiness of making allowed zones that let certain haulers go everywhere
but the kitchen, or barring a hauler from most of the inner fort just so he focuses on grabbing stuff outside the fort, feels as awkward as using a crowbar to pound a nail in. Allowed zones are meant to keep vulnerable colonists inside your walls and your pets from eating your colonists' meals, not wrangle job priorities so your haulers can function halfway efficiently.
If Supply Stockpile is implemented, it should be the default setting for Hoppers, though.
Watching my colonists haul things inefficiently (especially leaving items on the ground when they go home) drives me nuts. I prefer a little complexity to create a special stockpile to ordering them around manually (prioritize this, prioritize that). It's one of reasons I rarely use 2x and faster speeds. I just can't stand colonist stupidity.
Something else that should also be taken into account is; the haulers tendency to go and grab those 6 blocks of sandstone from way in the middle of bum-fuck-nowhere ('scuse the euphemism) when 5 tiles away there are also 35 blocks of sandstone, but instead of condensing the stacks into 41 and hauling them home, the current system calls for a second hauler to pick up those 35 blocks from the other side of the map ... WHY GOD, WHY WOULD YOU MAKE IT DO THAT?!
It drives me up the wall, because pawn A could haul all 41 units even with a dicky manipulation score and pawn B could go and do something fucking productive, instead of driving me bloody mental!
I mean, i cant even shift click order haul, so if the game does not recognize that pawn A can haul all of it ... ive got to spend 5 mins screwing around with this guy hauling the 6 units while the ai keeps dicking around and sending extra pawns to grab the 35...
Quote from: tyriaelsoban on January 19, 2017, 05:46:12 AM
Something else that should also be taken into account is; the haulers tendency to go and grab those 6 blocks of sandstone from way in the middle of bum-fuck-nowhere ('scuse the euphemism) when 5 tiles away there are also 35 blocks of sandstone, but instead of condensing the stacks into 41 and hauling them home, the current system calls for a second hauler to pick up those 35 blocks from the other side of the map... WHY GOD, WHY WOULD YOU MAKE IT DO THAT?!
Because programming is hard. No, seriously; I recall spending several days banging my head against the problem of
diagonal sprite collision. Hence I'm willing to give Tynan the benefit of the doubt concerning getting the colonist AI to override its own jobs.
Human brains are amazing at grouping things together, quickly hashing out a mostly optimal solution to it, and saying "good enough". Getting AIs to do that is... trickier.
My guess is the pawns only check for similar stacks nearby once they reach their destination, rather than when they start heading to the job. You see similar "stupidity" with pawns traveling towards a mining mode halfway across the map... only to turn around right before they reach it because they're hungry/tired. (Although I suppose that could be mitigated by estimating the time it'll take to reach there and measuring it against how soon they'll need to eat/sleep, but then factor in average walk speed over that terrain... Hrm...)
I only see a problem with gathering stockpiles, even following the new system, or making something like "They will only take the itens from the gathering stockpile to the main stockpile after the first one is full" is that your pawns will start gathering, stop, go smoke a joint, than go back to the gathering stockpile, haul to it, stop, go to sleep. and etc.
Depending on how you do it, I can see some problem specially the fact that it would be faster for them to take the gathering suplies directly to the main stockpile than to divide it into two tasks. Even though, this both option must be in the game for we to achive a better "Automatization" of the colony.
The suply stockpile though, that will work perfectly.
Quote from: MikeLemmer on January 19, 2017, 03:31:32 AM
Quote from: Thyme on January 19, 2017, 01:51:04 AM
Resource flow is managed with intelligent zone configuration. [...]
As I asked Britnoth, care to provide an example? Because while I've considered the idea, the finickiness of making allowed zones that let certain haulers go everywhere but the kitchen, [...]
I haven't even thought about allowed zones, just stockpile zones. Gosh, so many possibilities.
I'm not sure where your point is. You're defending the limited AI in one post and lamenting about stupid pawns in the next one.
Quote from: Thyme on January 19, 2017, 08:56:39 AMI haven't even thought about allowed zones, just stockpile zones. Gosh, so many possibilities.
Ah, well I've used stockpiles for hundreds of hours. The problem is that, even with stockpile priorities set up appropriately, it sends out hauling requests the moment a single item is missing/available. This is most problematic with food supplies, which are gradually diminished/replenished, are usually located near a common area, and everyone needs access to.
The moment a colonist eats a single meal from a 20-meal stockpile, it immediately requests more meals. A nearby hauler promptly gets stuck constantly shuttling 1-2 meals to that stockpile over & over again until everyone has finished eating. A similar problem occurs while you're cooking meals; either the chef is walking into the freezer 2-3 times per meal, or you risk a hauler getting caught in a constant loop of continuously topping off a chef's ingredient stockpiles and hauling just 1-2 meals back into the freezer. (And yes, I know you can cheat it by setting the Stove in the Freezer itself, but judging by the Cold Temp penalties Tynan implemented this patch, it's not an intended solution.) It's even worse when dealing with animal feed, where a hauler will panic and deliver more kibble the moment a cat devours 4 kibble from the stockpile.
Sure, there may be ways of tricking the AI into only checking such stockpiles sporadically through some Frankenstein's monster of carefully set work schedules, allowed zones, and proximity to common locations, but going through that mess feels stupidly complex compared to an elegant solution of telling the AI to
quit worrying about such small quantities.
QuoteI'm not sure where your point is. You're defending the limited AI in one post and lamenting about stupid pawns in the next one.
Because the calculations involved for both are different complexities. Pawns overriding each others' work tickets to maximize how much each one is hauling is a theoretically difficult problem involving calculating which stacks are nearby or on the path to/from the initial stack, calculating how much a pawn can carry, which of 2 competing pawns is best suited to finishing the order, etc. It's a problem that looks bloody simple to us but can actually be quite difficult for an AI routine to handle.
Meanwhile, solving the problem of pawns getting stuck moving 1-2 meals back & forth instead of waiting for a full stack to complete
should be a simple matter of tweaking when the Haul/Do Not Haul toggle for that particular stack is flipped. Granted, it may be more complex than that (estimating coding difficulty is always fuzzy), but at first glance it's a matter of changing an IF/THEN statement or two compared to asking the AI to estimate which of two pawns is better for a job.
Quote from: Thyme on January 19, 2017, 08:56:39 AM
I'm not sure where your point is. You're defending the limited AI in one post and lamenting about stupid pawns in the next one.
Is MikeLemmer a dumb human, or a smart AI ?
Seriously though, it's nice to know I'm not the only one who finds programming hard.
As I said, I had stopped reading at:
QuoteCurrently, haulers can easily get occupied hauling just 5-10 berries across the base every time someone cooks a single meal
If your stockpiles are set up so badly that using 5 berries to make a meal causes a hauler to go out and haul 5 berries from outside, then you need to look again at how large your stockpiles are.
I looked at the crafting hysteresis mod briefly, but I did not see anything that couldn't be done adequately with well set crafting bills.
If someone has a specific situation to solve as a challenge, I am open to it. 8)
I have to agree with others, making the hauling system more complex will cause more problems than it will solve. That said, I don't think you're completely off base on prioritizing deteriorating and spoiling items, but as long as you aren't having to wake pawns up from their rest, you can always prioritize this yourself, and it will give you something to do. I don't really want too much automation, because that just encourages people to run at max speed, and "wait" to play the game.
Crafting Hysteresis is great to pin your cook to the stove, he makes 10 meals and is done for the day instead of cooking 2-3 meals and walks through half your base to do something else.
However, I said Hauling Hysteresis, which is far more important to me. It helps preventing a hauler getting stuck in a supply chain carrying 10 units of raw food to the stove and the meal away unill the cook is done. Applies to all such scenarios.
makkenhoff has a point. 3 haulers can haul huge amounts of stuff in shor time when controlled manually. Automation vs OCD will never be optimal for all players, but I enjoy going at 1x speed more than speeding up.
You can't put the stove in your freezer or you get temperature penalty, so they walk back and forth constantly. Putting a tiny stockpile next to your stove however, they would leave the items there when not cooking and spoiling can occur, especially overnights.
I personally have plenty to do in this game and all this manual prioritization is beyond what I can handle. Instead of complaining about the automaton of boring, repetitive waste-of-time tasks, if you really don't have enough to do in the game how about you consider how to expand your actual 'fun' gameplay. Make combat more tactical rather than these stupid 'killboxes' with 50 auto-turrets. Play the game differently. Like me, you will find something to do that doesn't involve doing the brain-work of 10 different pawns all at once all the time.
Whenever my haulers fail to haul away 2k potatoes I do it manually and change the work priorities (or get animals) so that this won't happen again. Eventually, it will, when the colony gets bigger, but it's definitely nothing I do permanently. The last two runs I didn't build a single turret.
*Maybe I'm just too stupid to play RimWorld more time effective, but I like it.*
gathering and supply stockpile can be simplified like in Gnomoria
each stockpile has an option to "push" and "pull"
so gathering stockpile should push item to inside base stockpile (can push item to multiple stockpile)
and supply stockpile should pull from inside base stockpile (this stockpile cant take item beside designated pull stockpile)
it is easy to copy wisdom from other game
Quote from: Thyme on January 18, 2017, 01:45:58 PMYou are essentially saying that RimWorld got worse with every update. I guess you're still playing the first release?
That's not what I said, nor implied.
People like different levels of complexity.
Some people get stoked when they work out a series of 5 stockpiles with shifting priorities and an optimized work schedule with manual tweaking to solve hauling problems. Other people just don't have any interest in the topic and want to focus on something else, such as planning defenses or making a pretty base. The game needs to work for both micromanagers and macromanagers.
I hope we can stop bickering about whose style is better and find a solution that works for everyone. Adding more options is not dumbing down the game.
Quote from: Trylobyte on January 25, 2017, 12:23:26 PM
People like different levels of complexity.
I hope we can stop bickering about whose style is better and find a solution that works for everyone. Adding more options is not dumbing down the game.
I doubt there is a solution which will satisfy everyone equally.
If we are to increase complexity (more stockpile/ hauling options) then people can do better with equal or less resource (haulers),
If we are to simplify things then the easiest way to do that is to just increase resource (more haulers, or better haulers) or make Stock Piles more accommodating somehow, (example, increase stockpile capacity per tile)
to be honest I can think of mods and many ways which the haling system can be improved by adding options and complexity and if done right a player still can setup a network of stockpiles to be as complex or as simple as they want. and those that want to automate can and those that want to continue manually control haulers can still do that.
as far as how to improve the system by simplifying it, I can't think of any good way of doing this, and haven't seen one presented that would actually simplify things and can keep the relative difficulty of the game. You could just add more haulers or increase stockpile capacity, but this would just dumb things down and make the game less challenging.
thus I'm of the opinion that more options to tweek hauling is the better route as to maintain balance, if I didn't want to focus on hauling at all I'd just add robot haulers and increase stockpile capacity and forget about it.
Couldn't you accomplish stockpile typing by adding some options into the current stockpile mechanic?
Note that both a superior sniper rifle and a roof-less potato are both "deteriorating", so further customizability here might be useful.