I started a new settlement and plague hit 4/6 people 20 days in. Highest doctor is 7 and theres no glitter medicine or Penoxycyline yet. Being that it starts at 40% and colonists are always behind it unless you get those pills or a high doctor is it basicly instant death? First time dealing with it on 16 so I have no idea how lethal it is now.
Stick in bed permanently. That will at least give them a decent chance of survival given your circumstances. Be warned, without a good doctor (10+ skill) or good medicine (glitterworld medicine or Penoxycyline) or good equipment (hospital bed + vitals monitor), their chances of survival are pretty low. That's why it's vital you start out with at least one good doctor and research medical tech ASAP! :P
It's pretty much fatal 100% of the time now. Diseases need a serious rework, they are totally broken in A16. To survive you need hospital beds, vital monitors, and medicine. Or you can just use penoxycyline. If you're hit by plague before you get either of these you're dead.
I've taken to just editing my saved games when they contract plague or malaria early game - restarting just because of a broken mechanic is no fun at all.
I haven't played an A16 tribal game yet, but I assume this breaks tribals then?
*Continues to advocate for communicable disease in place of disease events*
Yeah, diseases like Plague in the base game aren't a fair challenge most of the time. For a lot of reasons...
Pretty much you get any of the 3 Penoxycyline diseases without having Penoxycyline or Glitterworld medicine your screwed. Malaria was the same way killed everyone who got it. Never had sleeping sickness but its probley the same.
I got distracted by Sea Ice before I could put diseases to the test, but by my math <40y.o. pawns should be able to beat the plague with averages tends of 41%, assuming more or less full bedrest after it's exposed. You need a (healthy) skill 9 doctor to average that with herbal medicine, at which point you'd still be looking at roughly 50/50 chance of survival. With regular medicine, you would only need skill 4 to tend that well.
So I don't think it breaks tribals, but it does add a significant challenge, particularly in jungle biomes.
edit: Malaria and Sleeping Sickness should only need tends of about 20%, so significantly more survivable, although you'll lose a ton of pawn time to bed rest.
I just now experienced that, too.
I bet it has to do with the recent massive nerfing of medicine effectiveness. Tynan forgot to take a look at diseases when he did that and the result is that the harsher diseases are almost impossible to survive before you have medical beds, good doctors and at least a huge amount of normal meds.
I just tried for a while with a few reloads and even with solid doctors for a 1-year-old colony, normal meds and superior (but non-medical yet) beds in a sterile room, the immunity gain is just about as fast as the plague percentage ticks up, making it almost impossible to survive for the victims.
The real bummer is that diseases were one of the medium bad events I really liked a few months before, because they introduced some kind of mid-term drawback, needed a bit of attention, but where not fiddly nightmares of micromanegement or impossibly harsh.
Tribal plague is a nightmare. You have to base your whole strategy around surviving the plague (start with 2+ healers, buy all the medicine you can from everyone as quickly as possible, research hospital beds and vitals monitors as quickly as possible). It took me several tries to get past the first two years exactly because of plague (2/3 colonists would die of it leaving me defenseless). When I did make it was mostly due to luck (right combo of caravan traders gave me the money and means to buy good medicine). Seriously, fighting mechanoids with bows and arrows was less stressful than dealing with the plague! :P
(As tribals) can't you just prioritise trading for a small stockpile of Penoxycyline and some glitter meds? If you've got a high risk of disease, that tells me the colony is probably somewhere nice and warm, which means easy farming and lots of wood, both of which mean easy money.
Getting the right trader is the hard part.
Quote from: dogthinker on January 18, 2017, 11:48:50 PM
(As tribals) can't you just prioritise trading for a small stockpile of Penoxycyline and some glitter meds? If you've got a high risk of disease, that tells me the colony is probably somewhere nice and warm, which means easy farming and lots of wood, both of which mean easy money.
Yeah, but if you get too wealthy too quickly as tribal you're going to get screwed by the RNG. You may be the richest colony on the planet but you're still playing with sticks and stones. :)
Quote from: Zhentar on January 18, 2017, 09:29:42 PM
I got distracted by Sea Ice before I could put diseases to the test, but by my math <40y.o. pawns should be able to beat the plague with averages tends of 41%, assuming more or less full bedrest after it's exposed. You need a (healthy) skill 9 doctor to average that with herbal medicine, at which point you'd still be looking at roughly 50/50 chance of survival. With regular medicine, you would only need skill 4 to tend that well.
So I don't think it breaks tribals, but it does add a significant challenge, particularly in jungle biomes.
edit: Malaria and Sleeping Sickness should only need tends of about 20%, so significantly more survivable, although you'll lose a ton of pawn time to bed rest.
Yes, i don't play tribals start, but i've treated prisoners in wooden beds with herbal, if they're young and healthy they'll make it.
I've honestly fought off plague in my Main A16 colony before I even got hospital beds, even though my colony's best doctor was afflicted (I had him do some tending before he was due for his treatment). Everybody still made it through though (it was cut close for one person though as they were aged 52, but they still barely scraped through - something like 95% disease and 100% immunity), even with a half-decent doctor (8 medicine skill IIRC), ordinary medicine, and pretty much constant bed rest.
Just use a doctor with at least 6 or 7 skill (preferably higher, but they will just about do), ordinary medicine, and stick them in bed, and most should get through. It's really not as bad as people think.
Edit: But yeah, Herbal Medicine simply won't cut it unless one's immunity is 'sufficiently' ahead of the disease progress, or if you've got a very skilled and/or bionic doctor, and possibly hospital beds on top of that. Other than that, you need normal medicine at the very least - or Glitterworld if you've got poor doctors.
Edit 2: On the other hand, this case was later mid-game as opposed to early, but this should mostly still apply to early game.
Yeah, I got the plague a couple times on my latest save. Used full glitter world medicine treatments. No survivors. Such BS, Tyrone really has got to fix this.
Quote from: Ghasty on January 19, 2017, 04:07:12 AM
Yeah, I got the plague a couple times on my latest save. Used full glitter world medicine treatments. No survivors. Such BS, Tyrone really has got to fix this.
Kept them fed and in bed?
The last time i was able to survive plague as tribal with herbal meds was A15, cass dropped a raid on me while everyone was still taking their bedrest.
After the fighting died down i had two standing colonists left (everyone else was either bleeding out, or unconscious from extreme pain), one of them proved to be a bit of a battleaxe and went on to haul each and every one of the others to bed, while the colonist with sanguine and steadfast went on a sad wander ... not kidding, steadfast/sanguine one had a mental break as soon as the bar touched the minor threshold while this guy with pessimist and fast walker went on to treat everyones sicknesses and staunch bloodloss and then pass out from exhaustion infront of a stove cooking his dinner ...
Anyway, this world ive been playing randy/intense with Vindar's Medieval Times and i had a rage moment because the AI infected 6 of of my 7 people with plague, now ive survived a tribal raid of size 30 (with a colony value of 40k) - all of my medics went down with it and it forced me to reload, with early tech i have yet to survive plague even with good tending skills and mid-level meds, medical bay is difficult because ive had to spend all my money on food on the count of living on frozen tundra - money also difficult because randy likes toxic fallout and i have no timber left, so glad i went and grabbed the coal mining mod ... at least my guys wont freeze to death ...
Quote from: milon on January 18, 2017, 09:17:30 PM
I haven't played an A16 tribal game yet, but I assume this breaks tribals then?
I can confirm that my plagued tribal pawn survived by staying in bed for 100% of the time and getting dozed with medicine I had purchased (not herbal). He was in extreme risk for a over one Rimworld day and I think he was really close to dying, but did not. I haven't had any other instances of plague with Tribal starts.
To also clarify, my doctor was only a 5, because the actual doctor was the one who caught the plague, but he "rolled" really well, with his lowest result being 45% or so.
I have to tell you I've never ever lost a guy to plague, even with tribal start.
I dunno what the hell you guys are doing wrong. I stick them in bed and never let them get out, treat them always with a good doctor, even with herbal meds.. that's it! never lost a pawn
Fighting diseases can be also hard because... idiot colonists keep getting up from they beds and do some work, even if "rest until healed". I found that disabling all types of work in the work tab help to solve this.
You don't need glitterworld meds or hospital beds to survive, provided you have a good doctor. Every colony should have a good doctor - and you should protect them by keeping them out of battle, and innoculating them with Penoxycline so they don't get sick themselves. Herbal meds may not cut it, though... so buy a decent supply of regular medicine ASAP. Then it's strict bed rest and prompt treatment. Haven't lost a colonist to plague yet using this formula.
Plague is rare. One of many many different events that can occur.
Glitterworld medicine, penoxycyline (instant win), and even medical beds are all available for purchase from assorted traders.
A forbidden cache of glitterworld medicine and penoxycyline should always be in your storage area. Unforbid glitterworld when the need for it arises, such as with bionic implants, removal of infected body parts, or plague (If your doctor's skill is too low, you don't have a medical bed, blood filtration drugs are not an option, and you're lacking penoxycyline)
Early plague in A16 with only herbal meds is very deadly, it is almost a death sentence for colonists with lowered immunity gain speed.
Had 2 guys get the plague and ordered them to stay in bed, they never left it til they were immune, even with exactly on time treatments (doc drafted besides the bed) I almost lost the 1st tribal, the 2nd guy was 50 and I would ve lost him if I didnt open an ancient danger and shoot him up with luciferium.
If more than 2 guys had gotten sick, I would have lost one. I was pretty surprised there, forced me to take a dangerous gamble with the ancient shrine, but I was lucky and it made for a cool story ^^
This taught me for future tribal runs to either start with a 10+ skill doctor, buy penoxycyline early if I see some with a trader or just yolo it with the ancient shrines like I did before ;D
Quote from: Sola on January 19, 2017, 10:01:24 AM
[...] A forbidden cache of glitterworld medicine and penoxycyline should always be in your storage area. [...]
We re talking about early plague here, with nothing but herbal meds at your disposal.
When pawns get plague you need to micro them to stay in bed until they get better. If they just get treated and start moving around they are dead, but the immune boost from being in the bed all day helps them out a lot. I beat plague with a doctor of 5 and herbal meds, granted everyone was like 99% to death but hey it still worked.
Quote from: Panzer on January 19, 2017, 10:13:16 AM
Quote from: Sola on January 19, 2017, 10:01:24 AM
[...] A forbidden cache of glitterworld medicine and penoxycyline should always be in your storage area. [...]
We re talking about early plague here, with nothing but herbal meds at your disposal.
I find it very rare to be stuck with just herbal meds in my tribal colonies, though regular medicine is not plentiful. I always prioritize buying at least half a dozen, whatever I can get of the regular medicide and everytime I have the opportunity, sometimes even getting a few pieces from fallen enemies. Plague has never occurred in what I would consider early game.
I don't know what y'all are talking about. Disease does that and I've had no issues fending it off with even sub-par conditions. Sure lose a few colonists, or tribe members, here or there but hey disease does that. A casualty when they are older or otherwise impaired makes sense without amazing care.
Its hard to survive. It can be done, but its chancy as heck.
One of my priorities ASAP in any game is to snag about 5 penoxycyline. I'll tend to choose a landing location next to an outlander town, or if random, head to one within 10 tiles sometime in the first 10 days.
Quote from: Limdood on January 19, 2017, 02:54:16 PM
One of my priorities ASAP in any game is to snag about 5 penoxycyline.
+1. Randy Random might screw you, but your mom told you never to hang out with that guy anyways. Sure, an early plague might kill you, but an early toxic fallout or volcanic winter might do the same. Plagues are uncommon enough such that I've only ever lost a game to it once, and that was in a challenge scenario. It's not like A13 (A14?) games where heat waves killed tribes, without a single way to counter it.
If you hate colonists getting sick then flee to icesheet or tundra, pretty safe there. :P
Quote from: Lightzy on January 19, 2017, 07:57:33 AM
I have to tell you I've never ever lost a guy to plague, even with tribal start.
I dunno what the hell you guys are doing wrong. I stick them in bed and never let them get out, treat them always with a good doctor, even with herbal meds.. that's it! never lost a pawn
You need a good doctor and for them to stay in bed. However, it's still random. I've had young people die in bed with a good doctor many times. Usually, they have immunity in the 90's so they were close to surviving but died. Old people just die. You need good medicine which as tribal is luck based (will I have the money to buy medicine, will I get a trader who sells medicine before the plague hits). And this all assuming a best case scenario. Unless I specifically try for a good doctor (reload), I will probably not get one. Some of my colonists may be old. Some may be mentally ill or have other chronic illnesses. I remember one time, my doctor went on a drinking binge while his friends were dying of the plague! ;D
Quote from: Sola on January 19, 2017, 03:14:41 PM
Plagues are uncommon enough such that I've only ever lost a game to it once, and that was in a challenge scenario. It's not like A13 (A14?) games where heat waves killed tribes, without a single way to counter it.
That's funny because the last five times I played tribal (admittedly on desert and arid shrubland so the disease chance may have been higher), I got plague in the first year to year and a half. RNG will be RNG ;)
Plague survival is far too random for my tastes atm imho. :P
Quote from: LordMunchkin on January 19, 2017, 04:15:50 PM
That's funny because the last five times I played tribal (admittedly on desert and arid shrubland so the disease chance may have been higher), I got plague in the first year to year and a half. RNG will be RNG ;)
Plague survival is far too random for my tastes atm imho. :P
Its PLAGUE! it SHOULD be near impossible to survive without advanced medicine...look at what the black plague did to medieval Europe...
Within a year to year-and-a-half, you should DEFINITELY be able to grab some penoxycyline. For crash survivors, you have starting silver to visit a nearby outlander town, for tribals, it might take a tad longer, but pemmican sells AMAZINGLY well. harvest all the berries/agave you can and kill some early animals and have 1 pawn carry as much pemmican as he can to an outlander town while the rest continue building, harvesting, and hunting. having the chance to pick up some machine pistols, survival rifles, LMGs, or assault rifles early on the tribals is also amazing.
Quote from: Limdood on January 19, 2017, 04:36:49 PM
Its PLAGUE! it SHOULD be near impossible to survive without advanced medicine...look at what the black plague did to medieval Europe...
Within a year to year-and-a-half, you should DEFINITELY be able to grab some penoxycyline. For crash survivors, you have starting silver to visit a nearby outlander town, for tribals, it might take a tad longer, but pemmican sells AMAZINGLY well. harvest all the berries/agave you can and kill some early animals and have 1 pawn carry as much pemmican as he can to an outlander town while the rest continue building, harvesting, and hunting. having the chance to pick up some machine pistols, survival rifles, LMGs, or assault rifles early on the tribals is also amazing.
Yes but unlike medieval europe, my pawns aren't having a bushel of children. Instead we have to rely on immigration which can trade joe the crafter for andrew the pop deva. Or their tribal versions (joe the weaver for andrew the scavenger) though thankfully tribal backgrounds are less painful in general simply because there are less terrible ones. In addition, plague was a rare enough event in the classical and medieval world. Society simply couldn't losing a third of its population on such a massive scale and neither can most colonies (RNG will somehow spare my most useless no dumb labor colonists from the plague).
As for grinding for wealth, you can't really do that because of the RNG. If you become too wealthy too quickly as a tribal without regards to your tech, you will screw yourself (have fun fighting a 6 or 7 mechanoids with bows and arrows). And that assumes the traders will even have the drugs and medicine or that the pawn isn't ambushed. Or that those raiders with guns don't destroy your weak tribals (requires some good tactics but a bullet to head can end even the best tactics).
I guess what I'm getting is that plague makes playing tribal depend too much on luck and it was already pretty luck based before (though that could be compensated for with good strategy). :P
you don't have bushels of children, true, but you have access to modern medicine...thru trade.
I never mentioned grinding for wealth. I mentioned using starting silver OR farming up just enough pemmican to afford about 5 or so Penoxycyline (and if you get more, and buy some basic firearms, then you've GOT the guns to fight on equal grounds)
Settling near enough to an outlander town IS an option you know. landing adjacent to one means your TOTAL travel time to and from the town is...1 hex. Ambushes are incredibly rare as well...yes they happen, maybe even in multiples, but its basically a "roguelike" game based on RNG events...It's going to happen sometimes.
SO...you can gamble on not getting a horrible illness until your tech advances (worked so well for the Native Americans and smallpox...) or you can risk a miniscule-to-moderate trek to an outlander town, which is almost guaranteed to have penoxycyline.
Could the plague numbers or herbal meds use some SLIGHT tweaking to make it slightly less deadly? I suppose so, but I hope it doesn't go back to A15, where disease was a slight inconvenience...just stick the pawn in bed for a few days and you were fine.
Congratulations, people, you are know discovering that the number 1 killer of humanity in all time is...... disease.
Not war. Not starvation. Disease. Usually, the ones that are, by modern standards, pretty easy to treat, like diarrhea (both from drinking bad water and eating undercooked food), infections, and vector-borne illnesses, of which plague is the latter.
Now, of course, diseases shouldn't be one of the, to be frank, stupid "events" that Rimworld loves so much, when things appear randomly out the blue. Instead, other diseases should be like infections, where they are dependent on the environmental conditions.
Have a poorly-skilled cook? Get food poisoning (already in-game) and suffer from diarrhea, the main danger of which is rapid dehydration.
Have a wound that is poorly cleaned? Develop an infection (already in-game)
Live in filth (aka "dirty" surroundings)? Living among various disease-bearing critters (fleas, ticks, rats, etc) spreads plague among your people.
All of the above can be actively fought not just reacted to.
Ummm, but you forget one other important fact: the number one cause of fatal disease is malnutrition. For most of human history people lived on the edge of starvation. Healthy well fed people with functional immune systems don't die from ordinary infections from a foot injury (tetanus a notable exception). And even an infection as dangerous as the bubonic plague only kills about 50% of *un*treated victims. With modern medical treatment that drops to 10%.
Rimworld plague is far more dangerous than real-world plague, and should be reworked so that it is usually (70%) survivable with just herbal medicine, and nearly always with ordinary medicine.
Malaria is even more misrepresented in game than plague is. I have personally got malaria 10 times while i was under 15 and only once did i actually need medical help to survive(108F is not a joking point at 10). Malaria is considered a fatal disease only because of the number of people it kills, not its kill/infection rate. Malaria should not generally kill a under 40 person even without medication if he gets bed rest. The way i see it, the starting point of the immunity should be a random variable between 30 and 50% for a disease that starts at 40% severity and working while sick with these killer diseases should make their progression rapid.
I think it would be more interesting to play if the diseases stayed as hard or harder to beat to 100% as they are now - but there should be intermediate consequences aside from death. E.g. flu starts causing lung infections or scarring, plague starts causing gangrenous extremities. So there could be significant (even permanent) consequences to "losing" without simply killing the pawns.
Boston is on the right track up there - if such a severe problem was somehow preventable or at least foreseeable, it would be something else. I just had another outbreak in my colony (roughly a year old at that time). Cassandras constant barrage of bad events, raids every 3-4 days and the usual crap, my (good) medicine stocks were pretty low. I HAD some penoxyline, but did not know you had to administer that as an operation instead of it being used automatically like other meds.
Luckily, the plague hit directly after a hard save.
Results: The initial version was very harsh by itself. 6 of 12 guys were infected. I had 5 beds in my hospital, 3 of which where medical beds with a vitals monitor attached to all five of them and sterile floor with a doormat installed. All 6 of them were sent to bed and had bed rest set to 1 basically at once. All of them were treated - first with the remaining normal meds, later with herbals since nothing else was left.
All of them died, even the one in the excellent quality medical bed with good treatments and a vitals monitor.
I then reloaded my hard save - and lo and behold, the plague still hit, and exactly the same 6 guys (which implies that bad events get "preloaded" quite some time before they happen and are part of your savegame, which is strange in itself - I made a few tests and could even reproduce that effect when switchting to Pheobe Peaceful).
I tried again to see if it was actually possible to survive - same result, all died. Then I remembered that I should have penoxyline, and found out why it was not applied.
I reloaded again, got the plague again (on the usual six guys), and this time applied penoxyline in addition to the usual treatment. The barely survived, by a few percent.
Diseases need a major rebalance, fast.
The diseases all start at zero percent severity; they just need to reach a level of severity where they have symptoms before it is revealed to the player. You can see it by switching on dev mode and checking the option to show all hediffs on the health info pane.
If you still have that hard save, would you be willing to share it? I'd be interested in playing around with it and seeing how the numbers turned out that way.
"I've gotten plague in the first year and a half in nearly every game."
A year and a half is a very long time. If you're in a tropical forest, this is not unrealistically far above average. By the time you have reached this point, have you really not encountered a single trader offering medicine/glitterworld meds, medical bed, or penoxyciline? That, I'd chalk up to horrible RNG.
Year and half is indeed a lot of time, usually I had base already set up and colonists with good+ M16, power armor and power helmet on every of them...
Quote from: Sola on January 20, 2017, 03:24:09 PM
"I've gotten plague in the first year and a half in nearly every game."
A year and a half is a very long time. If you're in a tropical forest, this is not unrealistically far above average. By the time you have reached this point, have you really not encountered a single trader offering medicine/glitterworld meds, medical bed, or penoxyciline? That, I'd chalk up to horrible RNG.
It's more complicated than that. It's also doctors getting ill (one time I had two good doctors and both got sick), researchers getting sick (stalling my research), people being old (even with good meds they died), not having enough money (this goes back to trying to avoid getting too rich too quickly as tribal), or just the timing of the plague (2/3 tribe was suffering from severe injuries from mechanoids when the plague hit so my one healer was overloaded). In one hilarious instance my pyromaniac set fire to my medicine (not tribal but still hilarious)! In addition, getting good medicine does not guarantee survival either. I've gotten regular medicine, kept my people in bed, treated them with a good doctor ASAP, and still had the majority of them die (usually with immunity in the 90s so they almost made it). ;D
Really, it's at the point where I consider plague a greater threat than mechanoids, raiders, infestations, or all the horrific creatures from the mods I use. I'd rather have my colonists fight deep ones with knives than have them get the plague! :P
Quote from: Shurp on January 20, 2017, 12:40:31 AM
Ummm, but you forget one other important fact: the number one cause of fatal disease is malnutrition. For most of human history people lived on the edge of starvation. Healthy well fed people with functional immune systems don't die from ordinary infections from a foot injury (tetanus a notable exception). And even an infection as dangerous as the bubonic plague only kills about 50% of *un*treated victims. With modern medical treatment that drops to 10%.
Rimworld plague is far more dangerous than real-world plague, and should be reworked so that it is usually (70%) survivable with just herbal medicine, and nearly always with ordinary medicine.
No, without treatment (read, modern antibiotics) plagues can vary in lethality from around 30% (bubonic, on the low end) to damn-near 100% (septicemic and pneumonic ).
For the entirety of human existence, the only time that human deaths via warfare overtook the level of human death via disease was the US Civil War, with the development of "modern" military weaponry. And, even then, hundreds of thousands of people died of diseases, like diarrhea, because they didn't know that they should
probably drink from the river upstream of where they shit. People die from sepsis
all the time, Shurp, even in the modern day.
As for malnutrition ..... all it really does is weaken the immune system. You don't get sick from "just" malnutrition, it just makes it easier.
Finally, "most people" through human history didn't actually live on the edge of starvation 24/7. While modern food surpluses weren't possible, they, on average, still
generally ate pretty well
on average. There were good years and bad years. Hell, the Icelandic Norse ate on average
10,000kCal a day. In
Iceland.
Quote from: Boston on January 20, 2017, 05:25:49 PM
No, without treatment (read, modern antibiotics) plagues can vary in lethality from around 30% (bubonic, on the low end) to damn-near 100% (septicemic and pneumonic ).
For the entirety of human existence, the only time that human deaths via warfare overtook the level of human death via disease was the US Civil War, with the development of "modern" military weaponry. And, even then, hundreds of thousands of people died of diseases, like diarrhea, because they didn't know that they should probably drink from the river upstream of where they shit.
People die from sepsis all the time, Shurp, even in the modern day.
As for malnutrition ..... all it really does is weaken the immune system. You don't get sick from "just" malnutrition, it just makes it easier.
Finally, "most people" through human history didn't actually live on the edge of starvation 24/7. While modern food surpluses weren't possible, they, on average, still generally ate pretty well on average. There were good years and bad years. Hell, the Icelandic Norse ate on average 10,000kCal a day. In Iceland.
Malnutrition doesn't just stem from low kCal. It's also from not eating enough of the right thing or eating too much of it. A lot of chronic diseases from the classical/medieval era stemmed from this.
When I looked through the appropriate Defs for A16, I honestly wasn't that scared for plague. Just roll a half-decent doc, and pretty much good to go. Only use medicine for diseases - heck, I don't even use medikits on severe open wounds (unless bleeding rate is so high they'll die in like 3 hours).
Tribal start would probably be a whole different story though... I'd probably know the feeling better if I played tribal more, as I generally don't play tribal (unless I feel like the whole tribal start from nothing, which I had some good, strong colonies turn out from - back in A15)
Quote from: Zhentar on January 20, 2017, 01:55:08 PM
The diseases all start at zero percent severity; they just need to reach a level of severity where they have symptoms before it is revealed to the player. You can see it by switching on dev mode and checking the option to show all hediffs on the health info pane.
If you still have that hard save, would you be willing to share it? I'd be interested in playing around with it and seeing how the numbers turned out that way.
That explains that. That safe got overwritten, sorry.
I've never needed glitterworld meds for diseases. (But I upped medical potency by .25)
Quote from: Catastrophy on January 20, 2017, 07:12:45 PM
I've never needed glitterworld meds for diseases. (But I upped medical potency by .25)
I don't understand the purpose of this post at all...
The plague hasn't been unbeatable for me.
Quote from: Stormfox on January 20, 2017, 01:01:20 PM
Boston is on the right track up there - if such a severe problem was somehow preventable or at least foreseeable, it would be something else. I just had another outbreak in my colony (roughly a year old at that time). Cassandras constant barrage of bad events, raids every 3-4 days and the usual crap, my (good) medicine stocks were pretty low. I HAD some penoxyline, but did not know you had to administer that as an operation instead of it being used automatically like other meds.
Luckily, the plague hit directly after a hard save.
Results: The initial version was very harsh by itself. 6 of 12 guys were infected. I had 5 beds in my hospital, 3 of which where medical beds with a vitals monitor attached to all five of them and sterile floor with a doormat installed. All 6 of them were sent to bed and had bed rest set to 1 basically at once. All of them were treated - first with the remaining normal meds, later with herbals since nothing else was left.
All of them died, even the one in the excellent quality medical bed with good treatments and a vitals monitor.
I then reloaded my hard save - and lo and behold, the plague still hit, and exactly the same 6 guys (which implies that bad events get "preloaded" quite some time before they happen and are part of your savegame, which is strange in itself - I made a few tests and could even reproduce that effect when switchting to Pheobe Peaceful).
I tried again to see if it was actually possible to survive - same result, all died. Then I remembered that I should have penoxyline, and found out why it was not applied.
I reloaded again, got the plague again (on the usual six guys), and this time applied penoxyline in addition to the usual treatment. The barely survived, by a few percent.
Diseases need a major rebalance, fast.
I also had some massive plague infections in my colony and the difference was made by the kind of medicine and the doctoring level. Vitals Monitor + Fine Meals + Hospital Beds + Sterile Tiles + a Lv. 13 Doctor. All my colonist survived (Cassandra Rough), no save scumming. Maybe the chances of surviving the plague are reduced in harder difficulty levels? can someone take a look at the code and enlighten me?
But, since OP is about Plague early game, I do consider massive plague infections shouldn't happen at least after the first year or if happen, they shouldn't affect more than half of your colonist early game.
The major issue with diseases is that they hit multiple pawns. I can deal with losing one pawn early on to disease, but when I'm faced with half the colony probably dying, I usually just give up on the game rather than watch my colony fall apart once again because of RnG. Diseases have always been dodgy, but previously it was mostly a matter of wasted pawn time and the occasional death. In A16 it feels more like a slow but inevitable death sentence for your colony and that's not fun.
I guess diseases will be reworked along with Tynans (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=29069.msg294036#msg294036) update surgeries in A17.
As it is now, diseases will always infect half your pawns. At least, that is what the incidents_disease.xml suggest, coherently with my experience:
<diseaseVictimFractionRange>
<min>0.2</min>
<max>0.5</max>
</diseaseVictimFractionRange>
Thing I hate about disease events is that Cassandra cheats, and uses them to make sure you don't get over the population cap.
As others have said it will Affect half your colonists without fail. At least one or two of them will be terminal. Keep in mind that was with Hospital bed, Vitals monitor, 100% time in bed and medicine. It seemed that some get immunity quickly, some were standard length and others were just dead.
It was frustrating to have a third of your colony on its sick bed, and then wham, another few show up a few days later. And knowing despite everything you'd do two of them were going to die. IT also happened quite frequently when over the colonist cap, on a boreal forest.
Good news is Randy doesn't give a hoot and plays fair.
Yeah, but we're talking early game. I don't think exceeding pop limit still counts ;)
Two of my colonists just got the plague. Its progress was about 50% with 40%ish immunity. Luckily, I've read this thread in the morning and had a trader to buy medicine and Peno... Malari-Block shortly before the plague hit. 50/60 afterwards. 1 medicine and 1 glitterworld each pawn later the progress was 87% and 93% when 100% immunity was reached. Skill was 3 or 4. I'm using better RimDoctors, which also increases medical potency of medicine to 100%. I guess without either the mod or penoxy my two pawns would've dieded.
So I just gave up on my third colony in a row because of early game plague...
Towards the end of the first season, two pawns get the flu. Okay, flu is fine, I can deal with this. Just gotta keep them in bed... 3 days later, double plague hits. I have 3 colonists, one prisoner, a kitchen and that's about it. The doctor got plague so she's dead. The two other pawns aren't skilled enough to save her. The pawn with flu + plague is dead for obvious reasons. None of this is due to any mistakes on my part, the AI simply decided that the game should end before the first season has passed. For the third fucking time in a row. A16 can fuck right off. I wanted to see the caravan mechanic, but I'm not about to invest another 6-8 hours in a colony that just gets taken away from me because the game decides to be a dick. I really hope disease/medicine adjustments are on the to-do list for A17 because this is getting absurd.
They are. Well, surgeries are, but that counts, doesn't it? I linked to it 3ish posts above.
That's the reason I like RimExplorer, early early game gets much easier with less pawns to feed, a charge rifle and of course lots of glittermeds.
I recently gave up on my second in a row, both because of disease. Both of them were early game, both were Rich Explorer, and in both colonies EVERYONE got plague simultaneously. The first colony had 3 or 4 people and the second had 2 or 3. I believe I had Randy for storyteller. Both colonies were less than one year old when disaster struck, I think. (I haven't played very recently which is why I'm hazy on the details. I rage-quit and played something else for a while, lol.)
Quote from: milon on January 24, 2017, 01:08:38 PM
I recently gave up on my second in a row, both because of disease. Both of them were early game, both were Rich Explorer, and in both colonies EVERYONE got plague simultaneously. The first colony had 3 or 4 people and the second had 2 or 3. I believe I had Randy for storyteller. Both colonies were less than one year old when disaster struck, I think. (I haven't played very recently which is why I'm hazy on the details. I rage-quit and played something else for a while, lol.)
After all its still all just drama for him... :P
Currently battling plague in an Extreme Start From Nothing colony. Patient is 67 years old, my best medic (Osborne) is only level 6 in medicine. Got a medicine supply drop just before plague afflicted Steven, so lucky call there. On the edge of my seat... it's going to be an extremely close call. Arrested him as soon as he started breaking so he could have maximum time in bed.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k101/XeoNovaDan/Plague_zpsswacq3tl.png)
Final treat quality is 80%... severity 91%, immunity 87%... it's going to be close!
Edit: HE BLOODY WELL MADE IT BY A HAIR! The proximity of the medicine literally made all the difference... my god! Him and Osborne are very close now, and I'd almost be inclined to say there'd be a romance - but he's 49 years older than she is. RimWorld might throw another surprise at me though! He did try to woo her before he passed out... Osborne's also now a level 7 in medicine!
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k101/XeoNovaDan/MADE%20IT_zpsynp3etd3.png)
Edit 2: I know this is no story thread, but my god RimWorld surprises me again! They are now lovers :) I'm actually getting really emotionally invested in them two now... A big raid came after and claimed a life (and also Osborne's left arm)... They almost kidnapped Zebra too, so it was almost just going to be Osborne and Steven. I kinda wimped out and turned the difficulty down from Extreme to Intense due to this investment... I missed the interaction though :(
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k101/XeoNovaDan/lovers_zpsybb2hi6n.png)
Plague is broken for tribal. You settle near an outlander colony to trade for penoxycillin, or you die at random.
When you have 4 people get plague and 1 is your doctor, herbal medicine offers no consistent means of rescuing people, even if you sac your doctor you're likely to lose almost everyone who gets it.
If you do immediately take penoxycillin, you can basically ignore the plague. No need for hospital beds or further micromanagement, as long as you take it as soon as plague appears and don't force your pawns into exhaustion they only get to "major" without further effort before becoming immune.
This wouldn't be too unreasonable if there were a minimum time requirement before the game can go "here, you lose" in the first 2-3 seasons.
Is it broken indeed?
It is plague - very deadly disease.
Tribals are primitive folk on rimwolds, it is basically expected that diseases may be harmful, especially the most deadly one.
Quote from: GarettZriwin on January 25, 2017, 04:17:25 AM
Is it broken indeed?
It is plague - very deadly disease.
Tribals are primitive folk on rimwolds, it is basically expected that diseases may be harmful, especially the most deadly one.
Yes. From a design perspective "sorry you lose" without counterplay is poor design, especially in a game that is usually very, very good about punishing you for mistakes and allowing you to survive if you adequately prepare. Its tuning being off is not unreasonable given this game isn't even beta yet, but in its current form it's detrimental to the "prepare or die" setup the game uses in most cases.
Plague right now is similar to heat waves before the passive cooler existed.
Or put another way: are you making a case that it should be impossible for tribes to defend from enemy raids since they have guns, or that enemy tribal raids should be easily trounced as long as you have an automatic or two? No? Then don't try to make a case that plague is ok "because tribe". Argue it from a gameplay perspective, and you'll see it's broken.
just recently got malaria in a tribe game. The event came on day 10. That means malaria actually hit on day 7 or 8 most likely, and the % just hit 60 on day 10.
This was cassandra easy (not peaceful or basebuilder), as i wanted a laid back animal centric game for fun.
I had 2 doctors, all others incapable of care. my good doctor had around 12 skill, but was 68. The plague hit as I had a caravan a full day out away from home...both doctors and one of the caravaners got malaria.
I quickly floored and cleaned the rooms with med beds and made stockpiles for pemmican and meds in the rooms. Put the two doctors together, and immediately treated and sent them to bed with herbal meds. When Pete got back the next day (luckily with 8 modern meds i bought at the outlander town i visited), he got sent to bed there too. My other colonists could do NOTHING but keep the room clean...its a pain that incapable of medical means they can't even bring food to downed colonists. I kept just BARELY up with everything. I was OK with the possibility of losing Pete (he was a wanderer, though a fairly good one) since he was untreated for a whole day on the world map, but it looked like all 3 were going to pull through.
Then extreme malaria set in, incapacitating my 2 doctors...my only 2 pawns CAPABLE of medical care, out of 6....oops. Just ONE MORE TREATMENT was all I'd need to live, but missing it would mean all 3 would die.
My tribe will forever tell stories about the specter that appeared in their midst, treated them, and then left the colony without a trace. (unwilling to die to such ridiculousness after putting up such a fight, i turned on dev mode, spawned in a colonist, had the colonist treat them all, then wander away...dev mode 5000 damage on the pawn until he died and the body was gone).
As far as this topic goes, yes, obviously the disease mechanic needs an overhaul, and i'd love to see epidemics stay in the game in ROUGHLY their current form, but they should be much more rare, and hit later in the game, and notified earlier. Conversely, i think disease from bad cleanliness, cooking, contaminants, or environmental factors should be MORE prevalent, but only affect pawns one at a time (though a chance to contract disease through contaminated surfaces and items and pawns would probably mean eventually the diseases would spread).
For people looking for a chance, or MORE of a chance to beat diseases with suboptimal starts (such as tribal) - keeping doctors near patients, keeping food near patients (when doctors are sick, to minimize time out of bed), and keeping the floor of any makeshift hospital covered and clean (wood or concrete floor is fine...dirt is not). Also, send a caravan ASAP to an outlander town to trade for modern medicine or penoxycyline. This last game I described above i was not adjacent to an outlander...I travelled 15 hexes to one on day 7 though, because i wanted some modern guns and medicine - which, historically, is how technologically stunted societies maintained, survived, or advanced their culture among more advanced societies.
Quote from: Limdood on January 25, 2017, 10:32:57 AM
i turned on dev mode, spawned in a colonist, had the colonist treat them all, then wander away...dev mode 5000 damage on the pawn until he died and the body was gone).
Just a side note, you can use the dev tool 'destroy' (you have to scroll down to see it) to disappear something with one click.
Quote from: Limdood on January 25, 2017, 10:32:57 AM
Conversely, i think disease from bad cleanliness, cooking, contaminants, or environmental factors should be MORE prevalent
It would be nice if such things existed at all... disease in Rimworld is a 100% randomly generated event. Nothing you do or don't do will prevent or result in disease (unless you count food poisoning, but that's essentially harmless).
That's one of the reasons people are so unsatisfied with how deadly diseases are right now. Your game is shut down by a random dice roll and nothing else.
Quote from: cultist on January 25, 2017, 10:46:07 AM
That's one of the reasons people are so unsatisfied with how deadly diseases are right now. Your game is shut down by a random dice roll and nothing else.
I play D&D with friends, I'm used to it, and accustomed to planning ahead to avoid 1 bad roll = death (it CAN be done in this game too).
BUT, your point is well taken. The "event based" disease certainly SHOULD be a thing...outbreaks and epidemics happen, but they need to be the exception...a rare thing, while other risk of disease is lower level and constant.
I WANT disease to be deadly. I do NOT think that herbal medicine and doctor care should be enough in every case. There is almost no case where you will not have herbal+ and doctor care. That means if tribals are built to be able to survive disease most of the time, then disease isn't a threat, and it SHOULD be. Even regular medicine is easy to get, stockpile and use on diseases. There is a fundamental disconnect in people saying that using any medicine should survive diseases and saying that they want diseases to be a threat. BECAUSE medicine is easily obtainable, medicine-treatable disease fundamentally can't really be deadly, OR is impossible to deal with (tribal or custom "nothing" starts).
Following through this thread, I haven't seen anyone suggest a "solution" that fixes the issue, that when:
disease is treatable by medicine, and medicine is obtainable easily, quickly, and in quantity, that disease is no longer a threat. Conversely:
Disease is deadly without medicine, and some scenarios start without medicine, so disease is almost a sure death sentence without immediately taking steps to prepare.In my opinion...my second assertation above is fine. You can't balance the game around tribals AND survivors. If something is a challenge for tribals, it is a non-issue for colonists. If something is a challenge for colonists, it is deadly for tribals. The game NEEDS to be this way. Otherwise tribal really becomes no different than survivors.
Further, Tynan already TRIED to address this. He TRIED to make diseases a real threat. He lowered the effectiveness of that easy-to-obtain medicine, while keeping the hard to get stuff really strong. He then added a PREVENTATIVE measure that also represents a significant cost (penoxycyline). Suddenly the game had a real, tangible tradeoff: 1) ignore penoxycyline and work to try to fight diseases off with only meds - and hope. 2) use penoxycyline on your doctor...ALL the time. remember, disease really hits before the event, so you need to have had penoxycyline active for a few days before the event hits. This means your doctor is likely to always be available to care for (the 3) diseases (that penoxycyline affects). and 3) make the insane investment to keep all your worthwhile colonists taking penoxycyline all the time....crazy expensive, but eliminates a threat. All 3 of these seem like worthwhile, well thought out tradeoffs, and the only visible flaws are that penoxycyline is dependent on trade (you can minimize by buying penox and neutro, but you still rely on a trader AT LEAST once, and then periodically in the future) and that its hard to define the worth of preventative measures - human psychology means if you take penox all the time, and never get disease, you're left wondering if maybe disease just didn't really hit...
Oh, luciferium also addressed disease issues....makes it really hard to die from disease with crazy high blood filtration.
The only thing i can think of that would help improve the "tradeoff" situation that Tynan set up is to possibly make some other drugs that the player COULD produce themselves affect blood filtration...but make it yayo or flake or go juice or something else that can cause addiction and permanent damage/ODs. A new, low cost, high risk answer to disease.
BTW, i'm going to make a thread in the suggestions forum about this, feel free to weigh in in agreement, disagreement, argument, or refinement.
The other bad aspect is that you get hit with extended downtime, which interferes with the gameplay in general. Sleeping sickness is particularly vexing, because unless you're running proxy trades for penoxy cycling (until you make enough your own), it's guaranteed long stretches of downtime. Player interaction and monitoring of pawns is a core experience in the game, so more than halving it while introducing time-precision micromanagement is probably why people don't consider it fun.
I dislike toxic fallout for similar reasons. It's less colony threatening than many events, but requires roofing + zone micromanagement + constant swapping in and out of zones unless you're getting it so late that you have a 100% sufficient indoor colony.
QuoteIn my opinion...my second assertation above is fine. You can't balance the game around tribals AND survivors. If something is a challenge for tribals, it is a non-issue for colonists. If something is a challenge for colonists, it is deadly for tribals. The game NEEDS to be this way. Otherwise tribal really becomes no different than survivors.
Further, Tynan already TRIED to address this. He TRIED to make diseases a real threat. He lowered the effectiveness of that easy-to-obtain medicine, while keeping the hard to get stuff really strong. He then added a PREVENTATIVE measure that also represents a significant cost (penoxycyline). Suddenly the game had a real, tangible tradeoff: 1) ignore penoxycyline and work to try to fight diseases off with only meds - and hope. 2) use penoxycyline on your doctor...ALL the time.
No. You do not need tribals and survivors to be the same. What you do need is something, anything at all, a tribe can *consistently* do to hedge against disease, just like there are ways to *consistently* hedge against cold, heat, and raids. All of those are more challenging for tribes by a margin. All of them are doable if you take the correct action.
Season 1 tribe disease has absolutely no counter-play unless you game it by plopping down near an outlander settlement guaranteed to have it.
"Don't pick this option unless you settle near another colony or it's expected that you die at random with nothing you can do about it. It's totally fine to just insta-lose on RNG because reasons that don't apply in every other aspect of the game system" is not a rational, self-consistent position.
So what is the solution? The short term solution is to put disease on a timer, so you can't get it within 1-2 seasons. Tribes that invest straight for electricity/other avenues and fail to trade for penoxy within a year or so then risk death, but have a CHANCE to avoid 2/3 of the colony dying by RNG with no counter option, just like they have a chance to defend guns or heat waves.
You can totally get penoxy by 2nd season on any biome except sea ice and maybe ice sheet as a tribe. But there's nothing you can do if it's not cargo dropped/tradeable and you get disease earlier than that.
I put up my suggestion thread on the suggestion board.
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=29945.0 (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=29945.0)
Feel free to weigh in (but please read the whole thread and stay on the rather narrow suggested changes topics before commenting).
One suggestion there does address how tribals might consistently address disease WITHOUT trivializing it for survivor factions (I literally cannot think of a different way tribals could consistently combat disease without trivializing it for survivors - any positive changes to power or supply of medicine affects survivors far more, and any negative change affects tribals for more (as was seen in A15 to A16 meds change))
Quote from: Limdood on January 25, 2017, 11:16:19 AM
(lots of text)
That's all great advice and such but you're kind of missing the point. This is about diseases (specifically plague) in the very very early game, as in the first season. There is no penoxycline... there is no glitterworld medicine, there are no traders or any of these things unless you get extremely lucky. It's just your starting pawns with no hospital beds and regular medicine at best. Plauge hits, you're dead. RnG at its worst and very unwelcome in a game that has so far been quite clever when it comes to disguising/moderating its RnG bullshit.
You realize medicine was massively nerfed in A16 right? Herbal is now the equivalent of rubbing dirt on a wound and regular medicine is what herbal used to be. Glitterworld and ONLY glitterworld gives a good chance of survival. Everything else is a gamble when it comes to diseases and especially operations.
Quote from: cultist on January 25, 2017, 12:04:14 PM
in the first season. There is no penoxycline... there is no glitterworld medicine, there are no traders or any of these things unless you get extremely lucky.
A16 made your faction finally able to dictate WHEN you traded with others. It also made you NEED to trade with others (or risk the silent, disease death that befell so many isolated civilizations in history)
I do think that plague should probably have about a 20 day minimum grace period before hitting, but i also think that you could generally call a caravan to you or more likely, visit a nearby outlander town within the first 10 days easily. I'm not saying you HAVE to settle next to one...even a 20 hex march isn't too bad considering the first season is spring or summer by default (or you're in hot enough climate that season doesn't affect travel time).
It isn't fun just "losing" - of course not. But how would you change it so that disease is more survivable for tribals, but still an actual threat for the survivor type colony? A longer grace period still "forces trading" it just gives you more time to do it. Modifying the diseases less deadly or medicine more effective completely removes disease as an actual threat for survivors.
Quote from: Limdood on January 25, 2017, 12:23:19 PM
Quote from: cultist on January 25, 2017, 12:04:14 PM
in the first season. There is no penoxycline... there is no glitterworld medicine, there are no traders or any of these things unless you get extremely lucky.
A16 made your faction finally able to dictate WHEN you traded with others. It also made you NEED to trade with others (or risk the silent, disease death that befell so many isolated civilizations in history)
I do think that plague should probably have about a 20 day minimum grace period before hitting, but i also think that you could generally call a caravan to you or more likely, visit a nearby outlander town within the first 10 days easily. I'm not saying you HAVE to settle next to one...even a 20 hex march isn't too bad considering the first season is spring or summer by default (or you're in hot enough climate that season doesn't affect travel time).
It isn't fun just "losing" - of course not. But how would you change it so that disease is more survivable for tribals, but still an actual threat for the survivor type colony? A longer grace period still "forces trading" it just gives you more time to do it. Modifying the diseases less deadly or medicine more effective completely removes disease as an actual threat for survivors.
A longer grace period is all it "needs", as in plague would not be completely unsurvivable then. You have more time to set up, more time to trade more distant target locations, and enough time to research penoxy yourself. Right now a tribe with scheduled researching can complete every tech in the game in ~ 3 years (faster if you double up on benches, but that's not too realistic or necessary). If you give them 2 seasons then stonecutting --> drug production --> penoxy is an attainable path, sacrificing electricity being available earlier. However, tribes can survive anything other than ice sheet/sea ice a long term w/o electricity. They can not survive early game plague.
So a tribe that isn't in a position to trade fast would then want to prioritize penoxy or take the risk of dying to disease. In contrast to the current configuration, that's challenging and conditional, but not entirely unreasonable/optionless.
Quote from: Limdood on January 25, 2017, 12:23:19 PM
A16 made your faction finally able to dictate WHEN you traded with others. It also made you NEED to trade with others (or risk the silent, disease death that befell so many isolated civilizations in history)
I highly doubt the point of the caravan system is to shut down your game unless you send one out right away.
Disease isn't the main focus of the game - it's one threat out of many. Your entire first season shouldn't be a race against time to aquire top-tier resources in order to deal with an event that may never come, but will effectively end your game if it does. The way the whole thing plays out is frustrating, from the random nature of disease, to the fact that there is no realistic counterplay until you are several seasons into the game.
So I know this thread has been dead a while but I just had an incident which highlights how poorly the disease system works currently.
I'm 33 days into my current colony. One of my colonists just now got the plague. The disease was at 50%, and he was at 40% immunity. Uh oh, trouble, right?
Nope. Earlier a random drop pod dumped 25 units of Penoxycycline on me. So I gave him one. His immunity jumped up to 60%, and now keeping him safe is trivial.
This is not a fun game mechanic. In the early game keeping a player with the plague alive should be a challenge -- not a "heads" he lives "tails" he dies event. I presently play with buffed medications, so using my 85% effective medkits makes keeping plague infected colonists alive a challenge, like it should be. This makes the plague event fun. You don't know that you're going to save him but you have a reasonable chance of doing so.
Penoxycycline should be a late game guaranteed survival when you no longer want the annoyance of treating diseases, not a necessity.
Tribals in tropical rain forest are harder than Ice sheet for just this reason. ;D
Put the sick people in ancient cryosleep caskets. They can't die while in there. I'm surprised no one else figured this out!!
Yeah, that's what my team armed with short bows should do when someone comes down with the plague: storm an ancient vault and take on the mechanoids inside! :-P
(Actually, I've noticed that since a15 there aren't many mechanoids in vaults anymore. What happened?)
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 09, 2017, 03:11:39 PM
Put the sick people in ancient cryosleep caskets. They can't die while in there. I'm surprised no one else figured this out!!
Sooo...you're saying I
shouldn't have decosntructed all of the caskets to collect their little scraps of Uranium? ::)
Quote from: Shurp on March 09, 2017, 06:17:29 PM
Yeah, that's what my team armed with short bows should do when someone comes down with the plague: storm an ancient vault and take on the mechanoids inside! :-P
Very much doable. Some vaults are guarded by hives, which are pretty easy to kill with hit&run tactics. If there are mechanoids, but not too many - scythers can be even killed in melee. Shortbows can take them out from wall cover. And the real deal is deadfall traps.
I don't know why it happened but I've seen a centipede drop on its 3rd steel deadfall trap. head: destroyed, 0/36 HP. But centipedes are the real problem.
The tactic I would actually use against centipedes depends on their behavior. Some mechanoids raid you, some guard the area. If they raid you, you can.... simply walk around centipedes and put the desired people in cryptosleep caskets. Cryptosleep caskets, as long as they're not claimed, are not attacked by enemies ! If they guard the area, creating a bit of distraction lets you open the caskets, releasing neutrals or hostiles, and centipedes will often shoot them instead of you. Many times those guys are armed, and you can then take their weapons. Also, ancient danger rooms contain psychic lances and last time I heard they... work on mechanoids, so by opening a vault you're answering your own question in a way.
Facing mechanoids certainly beats reloading or whining that you're helpless.
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 10, 2017, 04:25:37 AM
Facing mechanoids certainly beats reloading or whining that you're helpless.
But modding medicine so it works properly beats both!
Quote from: Shurp on March 10, 2017, 05:06:45 PM
Quote from: b0rsuk on March 10, 2017, 04:25:37 AM
Facing mechanoids certainly beats reloading or whining that you're helpless.
But modding medicine so it works properly beats both!
How is it not giving up ?
In my opinion, medicine shouldn't be a be-all-end all to diseases and wound-care.
Medicine isn't 100% effective; it doesn't mean you are going to fight off the disease, all it does is boost your chances.
That's why my medkits are at 85%, not 100%. Good enough to save someone with plague... barely. I really have to keep an eye on them and make sure they don't get up to play horseshoes or put out fires.
What medicine should definitely *not* be is a 100% failure rate, which is about what you get with 70% medkits on day 30.
Usually vistors have stuff to sell. Most of the time, more often than not, they have Penoxocide, happened for me, saved my life.
Penoxocide should instantly kill your colonist ;->
^^^