This is a subject that has me bothering for a long time now. The cold/hot biomes are completely imbalanced. And I don't see the reason why. Both biomes should offer a challenge, which is increasing the more extreme we are, but currently the hot biomes are a lot more easy than the cold one. For no reasons.
First clothing, while in hot biomes you'll make duster and cowboy hat, most likely, the cold equivalent is the parka and tuque.
-duster cost less to make than parka (80 vs 120 ingredients, we are looking at a 33% cost increase)
-duster have lesser move penalty than parka (0.04 vs 0.05). You also need to add the snow move penalty. Thick snow is 52% move speed, while sand is only 76%. Overall, you are much, much slower in a cold biome.
-duster doesn't have work penalty. Parka does. Considering how much it would be a micromanagement tedium to remove the parka everytime they work, you can consider that a permanent penalty.
-tuque can only be made of non leather. Which make it harder to make in the beginning of the game, since you need to grow the plant, while you can make cowboy hat at any time.
-cowboy hat offer a boost in social impact. Tuque offer nothing.
-tuque are faster to make. But considering both are fast anyway...
On the subject of clothing, hot biomes win without contest. So much, that I don't use parka myself. They are terrible at everything. Instead, I use good quality jacket. I suppose they are mandatory early game and for extreme biomes, or if you plan on going into space, but I avoid them as much as I can. They are that bad.
Ironically, a few alphas ago, when I used parkas, I had numerous "slept in the cold" situation because my parkas where really good, dropping the temperature too much indoors. Don't know if it was fixed.
On the subject of the temperature effect itself. Skipping the hypothermia/heatstroke, since it's more or less equivalent.
-crops will die when temperature is somewhere below 0°c (about -10°c I think). Crops will not die when temperature is too high, they will slow down the growth, or stop growing. Meaning your crops are never at risk in a hot biome. Solar flare ? Who cares. Heat wave ? I can wait. Not to mention in a cold biome the early game is a rush for sun lamp, and enough power for it. In hot biomes, you can play the whole game without them. It is massive.
-animals will leave the biome in winter, for cold biome. Leaving only predator, that can, and will, attack your pawn SEVERAL time a day because they suddenly find themselves without food source. In autumn, consider yourself at siege by the fauna. This is due to the fact that grass will be covered in snow, and die. In summer it barely grow fast enough to sustain the new arrivals (I tend to have hunting frenzy in spring, before they can leave), and if you have a poorly timed cold snap, they will likely leave again.
In hot biome, this is less an issue. While desert have less animals, they usually don't leave.
About the biome itself.
-I think that part is fairly balanced. Cold biomes have less room to build due to lot of water, but more place to plant crop. Which is kinda useless because you need heater and sunlamp anyway. Hot biomes have less room for crops, more room to expand.
-trees are abundant in boreal forest, but they don't regrow easily, or even at all. A poison ship/alphabeaver will destroy the trees in a large area, and they will probably never regrow. Hot biomes have a few trees, but they regrow fast. Overall, in a hot biomes you need to plant them, so I guess it's a minor victory for cold biomes.
-agave/berries can be harvested all year long in a hot biomes. It is mostly a summer thing in cold biomes
-ambrosia sprout, mushrooms and seasonal plant is a clear win for hot biomes. They can safely harvest them. In cold biomes, it's unlikely they'll survive long enough to be harvested.
-caves are a mix of penalties/advantages in a hot biomes. In a cold biomes, it's only negative. The mushroom will never grow to be harvested, they'll die before. Leaving you only angry bugs, and a bit of jelly.
Electricity.
-cold biomes use heaters, which are less expensive to build and to run than the cooler. Also coolers need access to an unroofed area.
-on the other hand, you'll need sunlamp before the first winter. And they take a lot of electricity. A hot biome can mostly run without sunlamp for a while, in the case of the arid shrubland, you can run a colony forever without it.
Contrary to popular belief, cold biomes actually lose again. I'll take a real example. I have 2 colonies, one of 9 people, on a boreal forest, living under a mountain (no hydro, crops are in a "hidden" valley). The other, a 13 people colony on arid shrubland (no mountain). I have a mod for the regular lamp consumption, but it shouldn't interfere, since both biomes will use them in the overall same amount anyway (29 vs 28). Using the power tool from the manager mod.
My boreal one use 17.1kw during the day, vs 7.9kw for the arid one. That's more than double. And this is during summer, where my heaters are not even working at 50% capacity. The reason is the sun lamp (8.7kw by themselves, that's the entire arid electric consumption), but my heaters are also using more (2.1 vs 1.3), for some reason. Note that the amount of cooler/heater is close (cooler : 26 vs 23 heaters). I use a geyser for to help for the temperature though.
Conclusion :
Cold biomes are clearly harder than hot one. In fact, arid shrubland is barely harder than a temperate biome, perhaps even easier, while desert is certainly not harder than tundra, perhaps even boreal forest.
I think the biggest issue lies with clothing. It needs to be much closer in term of balance. Allow leather tuque, remove the work penalty on parka, and add a social impact on tuque. That would greatly close the gap.
Also, having crops dying when it's too hot would be a "good" thing. In real life, they die when it's too hot. Not because of the temperature itself, but due to the lack of water. Just try to grow something in a patch of gravel of a desert. Not going to work. In Rimworld ? No problem.
Finally, let the trees, especially cold species, grow when it's cold.
There is no need to balance biomes. In a multiplayer game you have to balance heroes / races / spawns / everything to make it a fun experience but this does not apply to singleplayer games. Especially with regards to biomes which you choose voluntarily and which are there to present variability and challenges. No one would argue that Ice Sheet is unbalanced compared with Temperate Forest because Ice Sheet. There is no reason that the overall difficulty (growing, clothing, temperature management, space restraints, defensibility, diseases etc.) must be the same for any two biomes.
That said I
do like some of your suggestions not because of balance but because they just feel right / make sense.
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Also, having crops dying when it's too hot would be a "good" thing. In real life, they die when it's too hot. Not because of the temperature itself, but due to the lack of water. Just try to grow something in a patch of gravel of a desert. Not going to work. In Rimworld ? No problem.
Absolutely agree. All my crops survived a heatwave with peek temperatures of 64°C recently. Temperatures that extreme should kill off at least part of the crops (as implemented for cold).
Additionally I think the Maximum Comfortable Temperature for a lot of animals is way too high. A muffalo for examples feels fine up to 50°C which makes no sense at all to me. I think animals like muffalos, wolves, arctic foxes etc. should struggle a lot more with heat.
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Finally, let the trees, especially cold species, grow when it's cold.
Yes. There should be at least 1 or 2 trees like Pine that grow in the cold. Instead of stopping their growth at 0°C slow it gently down and stop it -20°C or something like that.
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I think the biggest issue lies with clothing. It needs to be much closer in term of balance. Allow leather tuque, remove the work penalty on parka, and add a social impact on tuque. That would greatly close the gap.
Absolutely disagree. Since I'm not on board with your balancing premise at all I can't see no reason for this change. Bowler hats and cowboy hats have a social impact because they are stylish. Most tuques not so much. And do you see many people in leather tuques? Maybe some bikers but than it is more for wind protection and style than for warmth. And work penalty for extreme warm outdoor clothing (read: thick and cumbersome) just makes sense.
If you want some fun times you can always run deserts where growing season is 1/2 the year or less, to get a little taste of everything.
Tundra actually has decent fauna and if you are attentive you do get herds even in winter for a bit. You can keep 6+ pawns alive indefinitely on hunting alone in tundra which takes the edge off of the food crunch for tribes (fine meals use this + crops nicely, with less crops/meal).
Low initial wood is a problem in desert. However, the real nasty biomes are the two coldest variants, ice sheet and sea ice. I can start with nothing as tribal and have an excellent chance to thrive on extreme difficulty on any biome aside these two. On these two, that isn't even realistic to attempt since there is absolutely no wood...in fact the standard lost tribe scenario on ice sheet is extremely unforgiving (not enough fauna to sustain 2 pawns, no trees and can't grow any for ages, slow even then), basically guaranteed reliance on cannibalism.
All of the deserts are pretty doable, even extreme desert.
Up to tundra, cold biomes have enough food and at least a passing amount of wood to get established. 3x solar and battery per grow area is a non-trivial resource sink for growing but once you're 1-2 years in, it's not so bad. Also on tundra you can still get by with something like decent duster + tuque (or crappy one with muffalo wool/camelhair/alpaca wool), and make roofed paths to block snowfall, greatly limiting the advantage to warm climates in terms of apparel and move speed.
Ice sheet + sea ice are special and I guess that's ok. Since the major nerf to caravan calling cost I'm not very attracted to the waitfest that is sea ice though.
Good luck running a non-psychotic cannibal tribe, with the current mood breaks.
Quote from: Bozobub on December 20, 2017, 01:32:05 PM
Good luck running a non-psychotic cannibal tribe, with the current mood breaks.
On tundra? It's easy.
On ice sheet? Nope. Even WITH cannibalism, food is tight for 2-3 people. If they break mid-raid you can't defend yourself, and electricity + battery is a long way off. Once you get it, you still only have gravel for inefficient indoor growing since you won't get a full sunlamp area.
You can somewhat work around that by settling near a pirate base that lets you sneak-raid it for food (quite challenging now but some layouts might let you steal food and respawn the base), or doing something like repeatedly settling a 2nd colony to hunt down magically generated rabbits and bears at a much higher incidence rate than you'd get on just home square. But you still can't cook it for a long time; wood runs out quickly. As a tribe you just don't have the tools to succeed here without heavy and typically micro-intensive mechanic abuse or cannibalism.
Crashlanded tech still has some plays they can make in these biomes but for tribe it's a no-sell basically.
Quote from: Scrabbling on December 20, 2017, 06:48:18 AMQuote
Finally, let the trees, especially cold species, grow when it's cold.
Yes. There should be at least 1 or 2 trees like Pine that grow in the cold. Instead of stopping their growth at 0°C slow it gently down and stop it -20°C or something like that.
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I think the biggest issue lies with clothing. It needs to be much closer in term of balance. Allow leather tuque, remove the work penalty on parka, and add a social impact on tuque. That would greatly close the gap.
Absolutely disagree. Since I'm not on board with your balancing premise at all I can't see no reason for this change. Bowler hats and cowboy hats have a social impact because they are stylish. Most tuques not so much. And do you see many people in leather tuques? Maybe some bikers but than it is more for wind protection and style than for warmth. And work penalty for extreme warm outdoor clothing (read: thick and cumbersome) just makes sense.
Ever seen a tree explode because it freezes (ice volume expansion)? I have, once; it's not something you want to be nearby as 2' long 'splinters' can really ruin your day, plus it's completely unpredictable (unlike, say, a dead limb dropping: an experienced woodsie could spot the latter potential)
WRT the headgear issue I find it odd that bowler (derby) hats offer no extra protection; that's what they were designed for initially (cf c18-c19 gamekeepers, then police/security forces before helmets). WRT temp protection perhaps make tribal veil (or even headdress) similar to a balaclava/scarf combo, with accompanying social penalty? As said above, leather tuques would be effectively useless vs -ive temp
WRT general clothing I agree that (wool) dusters are currently imbalanced, but it's hard to see how they (& other overclothes) may be tweaked within the scope of the game design. Parkas slowing movement is slightly more nonsensical than degrading manipulation IMO, but still makes a certain amount of sense; maybe dusters should degrade manipulation a little (due to long sleeves/coattails getting in the way of precise work) too?
Speaking more on a comparison to the real world, I would say that it makes sense. Think of trying to survive in Siberia or Alaska vs the middle east or the Mohave. There is simply more to survive on in the hot climate. The hot environment itself is much less likely to kill you, thanks to the way the human body deals with heat vs cold.
Well I agree with the aspect that certain species of trees like Birch or Pine should continue growing even in the winter unless the temp dips down during a cold snap.
Regarding the clothing, while in essence I do agree that there should be some semblance of balance between Parkas and Dusters. It is not so much of an issue for me. Though the only reason is because once I get access the muffalo or alpaca wool, it becomes a non-issue. I generally prefer making dusters even in boreal biomes because it provides insulation for both hot and cold with muffalo or alpaca wool.
I pretend that all the trees in the Tundra are "old growth", and would have lived long and happy lives until you came, bringing trouble with you. Trying to grow new trees would take just as long.
I also agree with wool is OP. Not only does a wool Parka guarantee survival in any freezing environment, but wool...is good for heat as well? :o
Quote from: Hans Lemurson on December 21, 2017, 03:48:48 AM
Not only does a wool Parka guarantee survival in any freezing environment, but wool...is good for heat as well? :o
That magic wool creates a lot of dislikement inside myself too!
I'd wish a more clear classification, wool is only cold, cotton neutral, leather for heat protection (could need a split from leather and fur).
By now my magic hot-cold-duster annoys me alot.
For the topic:
I don't think that biomes need equal balancing, but it's true that most game elements take effect in cold biomes, while in hot biomes not very much is happening.
Noone force you to use another biome the Arid (that was the first biome at Rimworld i think).
To choose other biome are just a diffiuclt rating, some made it easyer, some difficulter for a starting colony.
Same like the tribal start, or the storyteller difficult setting.
You choose a different biome for your personal challenge. They don't need to be balanced.
And btw. any wool is very good for temperature, but their defence rating are the worst.
I agree with some of this. I wish the extreme desert was actually a little harder and more on par with sea ice. Sea ice is a real actual struggle and if it wasn't for watching Rhadamants playthroughs of it I dont think I'd ever have made much of a go, but its also a lot of fun having that early game challenge.
The clothes to me also don't make a lot of sense. I also think the duster is actually a bit overpowered. It covers more body parts, which I like, but the fact that its great heat and cold protection is kinda silly. IMO I think the cold weather gear either needs to also be similarly buffed, or the gear needs to be split farther apart on hot vs cold.
I mean hell, for most standard style playthroughs where you are not setting the temps to extremes, you can tame yourself a camel or muffalo, make dusters for everyone and survive year round in heat waves and cold snaps. I only ever seem to need to use parkas on my extreme cold playthroughs or in the very beginning surviving my first year, etc.
I would also love to see the different leathers have more variation in stats. Perhaps this could help change some of the biome / temp / defense issues between them all. For example some furs/leathers are definitely stronger and more resistant to cold then others in the real world. In rimworld however, 95% of them are exactly the same and some have downright terrible stats on the few stat sections that do vary between the types even though you would think that one would be particularly strong. Why is pigskin for example sooooooooooo much more heat resistant?
Of course the special ones like Thrumbo make sense, but I would think animals found in the arctic for example would have much much better insulation factors then those found in the desert for cold, and vice versa of course. Or that more then JUST rhino hide gives added armor bonus's.
I don't want the biomes perfectlyt balanced to be opposite or anything either. I just want heat to be a little more extreme considering it feels easier to deal with and get around, the clothing options are better, etc.
Quotebut its also a lot of fun having that early game challenge.
That what i like, early game when you have to struggle between survival and progress.
Late colonies are boring, when you allready have good crafter for good equip and good suply of resources.
QuoteI also think the duster is actually a bit overpowered.
Old discussion, and nothing new.
But at an extreme ice biome, parka is more or less still needed.
At a biome with just permafrozen, a duster is the better choise, true.
Even when you can duster out of wool, the protection is like non existent. It protect from the cold but nearly not from bullets. A parka out of leather may not cover all parts but protect better.
QuoteI don't want the biomes perfectlyt balanced to be opposite or anything either.
Don't forget, all these extreme biomes cames later into the game, just to have a more challenging gameplay. The sea ice was unsettleable at the first, but some ultra-challenger wanted to settle there.
In terms of protection wool duster vs most leathers on a parka is negligible. In both cases you want to slot in some body armor or use power armor outright.
Yeah I just think the clothes need some overall balancing, just a little bit. It's not super far off its just that the duster actually nullifies the purpose of other clothing on all but extreme game playthroughs. I think that a standard game should be the center basis point for the various equiment and clothes to be balanced against, then extreme other options added/adjusted to make extremes possible.
I.e. Cut the dusters cold protection in half. It can still have some, but it shouldn't be anywhere close to a jaket or parka. Lower its armor values a little more since it also covers the legs (which is actually a VERY valuable feature, being that the options for some body parts are extremely limited when it comes to armor until you start using power armor)
Regarding the leather vs wool discussion, on normal playthroughs even in really cold biomes a normal leather parka is more then enough. The fancy wool ones don't even need to exist basically, the world just doesn't get cold enough or hot enough until you start adjusting the world temperature on game creation, so the armor discussion for wool types is fairly moot.
You know what would make the hot environments more on par with sea ice? If colonists had to also drink, similiar to dwarf fortress. If that were to happen, it would give another resource that the extreme deserts/normal deserts could be ultra light or non existant on, making it a much more complex scenario. It also would add in tons of other possibilities. Maybe we will get some additional systems after the game goes gold and the main stuff is out. I know Tynan isn't putting in any new major changes or systems.
QuoteRegarding the leather vs wool discussion, on normal playthroughs even in really cold biomes a normal leather parka is more then enough. The fancy wool ones don't even need to exist basically, the world just doesn't get cold enough or hot enough until you start adjusting the world temperature on game creation, so the armor discussion for wool types is fairly moot.
You think ?
With the proper wool torque you allready get enough cold protection to wear a good leather/devilstand duster. And don't need parka's.
Well. what you're saying is basically along my same point, the temp variations just are not extreme enough to need the wool stuff, or parkas at all in most situations. You can abuse the duster being just superior is almost every normal scenario.
Not that I want the various wool clothings to disapear or anything, I like playing the extreme biomes. I just think the entire line of clothing and stats needs a pass over to sort of be re-balanced out. Some items need more purpose to exist, some need to be less universal. As it is, any normal temperature game always boils down to "grow devilstrange, make every colonist a long sleeve shirt, pants and duster from it and give armor chest. Once to power armor equip all fighters with it or have it ready for them to equip for raids etc"
I also wouldn't mind if power armor had slightly better temp protection, or if there was a an additional layer you could wear with it so you could use power armor in extreme environments. Or perhaps just another type of armor in between the armor chest piece and power armor.
Sorry, was away for holidays stuff.
I don't think the biomes should be balanced for the sake of balancing them. But I think that right now, desert are way, way too easy. Mostly because water is not modeled in the game as a need. Which is the biggest reason why desert are not populated IRL. Crops grow just fine without water in rimworld, and our people never drink. Eventually, desert are easy.
When you have a desert and an "extreme" desert, you expect a challenge. Just like you have with pretty much all the cold biome (in varying degree of difficulty). But right now, arid bushland is pretty much an easy mode temperate, desert is easy, and extreme desert is not really difficult.
Eventually, people looking for a bit of challenge are pushed toward cold biomes. And that get a bit stale after a while.
Quote from: Snafu_RW on December 20, 2017, 05:44:55 PM
Ever seen a tree explode because it freezes (ice volume expansion)? I have, once; it's not something you want to be nearby as 2' long 'splinters' can really ruin your day, plus it's completely unpredictable (unlike, say, a dead limb dropping: an experienced woodsie could spot the latter potential)
There are still massive forest in boreal... forest IRL. Siberia is full of forest, despite the cold. In game, your tree will die, and they will not grow back. A few years in, the area you are in is a desert. Which makes no sense. It's like a Heisenberg thing, you can see the tree die so they all die, apparently. But if we are not there to see them, they don't. We solved the mystery. Quantum physicists and philosopher around the world are probably rejoicing.
Cold species should grow in cold biomes (at least the one where they are supported). Like pines.
QuoteWRT the headgear issue I find it odd that bowler (derby) hats offer no extra protection; that's what they were designed for initially (cf c18-c19 gamekeepers, then police/security forces before helmets). WRT temp protection perhaps make tribal veil (or even headdress) similar to a balaclava/scarf combo, with accompanying social penalty? As said above, leather tuques would be effectively useless vs -ive temp
Ushanka want a word with you :
https://www.furhatworld.com/images_wm/large/Silver_Fox_FurLeather_Russian_Ushanka_Hat_1455.jpg
They are made of fur, but in game fur and leather is pretty much the same. Thrumbo fur, chinchilla fur are both leather in game. And you can't deny they look cool.
I think the issue is water, or rather, the fact that it's worthless and isn't required for anything. Having a lake or a river on your plot should be a boon to your settlement's survival, not some annoying thing that gets in the way of your perfectly-designed fortress. The lack of water should be the actual challenge of arid biomes, but since you never need water in the first place, the only real long-term challenge is the heat, and as people have said, it is nowhere as punishing as extreme cold is.
If there were things like fishing (especially Ice fishing) hydroponics requiring a steady water supply (either to work or to get better-than-fertile-land results), the ability to irrigate farmland to increase fertility, with the ability to melt ice and snow to get these things... There are a lot of things you can add to make the (frozen) water abundance of arctic climes compared to arid ones a boon for them without having to add a thirst meter.