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RimWorld => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kyle on October 30, 2013, 09:30:03 PM

Title: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Kyle on October 30, 2013, 09:30:03 PM
They've angered me enough now to actually stop playing until something is changed, I have 3 colonists and have no way of getting more by the time raiders come, there are roughly around 30 raiders each wave for me it's become a joke. I have tried every defense mechanism in the game. I give up. Please change the amount of raiders that come each wave.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Zorbane on October 30, 2013, 10:15:52 PM
Did you try Phoebe Friendly?
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Syagria on October 30, 2013, 10:49:37 PM
What storyteller are you using? When I play with Cassandra Classic I get one raider after a few days.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Spike on October 30, 2013, 11:34:05 PM
Yeah, my first thought is to ask what storyteller you're running on, and that leads to how it ramps up.  I know Tynan has made some changes from the first videos, but that is one of the things I saw with (the old) Cassandra Classic - it would ramp up the raiders pretty fast, from 1, 3, 6, many.

I do wonder how the game decides what to send though - is it a straight timer, or is there some counter mechanic that the player can influence.  Like the way Dwarf Fortress uses your fortress wealth alongside the savagery of the area to determine how tough of a force to throw at you.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: AspenShadow on October 31, 2013, 08:02:22 AM
Atm it's a steadily ramping increase in raiders (and or their gear), it's inefficient and doesn't produce long playthroughs but that's kind of the point at this stage. The storytellers are far from complete and the eventual idea will be that the AI will be able to detect 'how the player is doing' and adjust difficulty accordingly rather than simply keep ramping things up until it's a Turret Defence game like present.

Speaking as I mainly test Phoebe Friendly, it gets boring VERY quickly and it's not really an alternative to people struggling with masses of raiders. I've never had that degree of bad luck with raiders but I haven't played too far into Cassandra yet.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Kyle on November 01, 2013, 02:03:53 PM
I chose Cassandra Classic and I got 1 raider then I thought alright picking this storyteller was a good idea, then by the next raid there was over 15 raiders and I had 3 turrets set up.

Couldn't do anything to save myself.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Semmy on November 01, 2013, 02:19:12 PM
You sure you didnt by accident get randy..
i never went from 1 to 15 raiders.

it always goes like 1 3 3 6 7 9 7 11 something like that
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: AspenShadow on November 01, 2013, 03:54:41 PM
Quote from: Kyle on November 01, 2013, 02:03:53 PM
I chose Cassandra Classic and I got 1 raider then I thought alright picking this storyteller was a good idea, then by the next raid there was over 15 raiders and I had 3 turrets set up.

That does sound more like a bug of some sort to me, I've NEVER had that sudden increase in number. My last playthrough went 1, 3, 4, 4 w/ better gear, 6 w/ better gear and then I stopped before being destroyed due to new build published.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Technical Ben on November 01, 2013, 04:34:39 PM
You can survive with little more than a turret or two. But you need defenses, hiding places, and some poor aimed Molotovs from the raiders.

If in doubt, wall yourself in... ;)
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: UsF on November 01, 2013, 06:24:25 PM
I also use Cassandra Classic and get owned on the second raid by around 6 raiders. It is rather silly.

Does the game have an algorythm that somehow estimates your strength by how much you have build? Because I love stocking up on power, as raids always seem to happen during eclipses, when you have no solar power and need that stored energy.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Chicken Breast on November 01, 2013, 07:37:54 PM
I was quite discouraged by the slaughter at first as well, my friend. Have no worry, it just takes time losing all of your people and your whole base over and over again until you slowly start implementing new strategies about how to deal with raiders.

In the turret defense aspect I have been more than successful. I make choke points with walls and the natural cliff formations, to slow them down with rubble in dumps and make them meet three turrets in strategic positions when they hit that corner. That, plus some sandbags by nearby corners, with some people there. This is a little more advanced of a tactic meant for when you are facing about twenty raiders. I use a lighter version for the beginning and build up.

I honestly recommend a relocation at the beginning of most matches unless you really luck out, because the map usually has a better place if you start out at something too basic or open. I am even playing on Tough Cassandra right now though and though she has given me some trouble, I have used the above strategy plus some blasting charges to keep my colony going and expanding for 16 Cycles!

Never underestimate cover, it can really do magic. On that note, don't underestimate the tactic of funneling either. It will really blow your mind how easy it can make it, though have no surprise if they try to burn your walls down anyway, because they will.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: sparda666 on November 02, 2013, 03:12:08 AM
if you make your base in a cave, you can make the entrance a long  1-block wide corridor and put mines in it leaving enough space for a chokepoint at the end. mines will blow away some rock, but raiders will still be forced to run through a corridor full of mines. theyll never even get to your colonists or base, as long as you can hide your solar panels
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: yabbadabbado on November 02, 2013, 04:31:52 AM
I agree with the OP, however OP, realize these are such early builds that all of our complaints are unfounded until later into development. Great example being games like Project Zomboid, who to this day have 0 NPCs on their new build rehash.. and are considering bumping the price to $15 USD. Which is a joke quite frankly. The game has very few features as it stands. You can't even play as a zombie with a nice metagame or anything yet. Why not just add more- I digress, you get the picture. This game has more features than that and is only in pre-alpha stage, why worry?
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Kyle on November 02, 2013, 10:16:45 AM
It seems I have a bug if I'm the only one going from 1 raider to 15. I'll start a new story all together then.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: enystrom8734 on November 02, 2013, 12:36:33 PM
If I am correct Ill assume you have 232. There was rebalancing post 232. Shouldnt be complaining about a non supported version...

Also wrong section.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Kevlar on November 02, 2013, 09:29:02 PM
I've recently started a new game on Randy Random with the self imposed challenge of no turrets in the colony. So far I've annihilated a raider force of 15 with only 5 shooters (2 shotguns, 1 M16, 2 Lee-Enfields). It isn't difficult once you start thinking about your colony design in terms of ease of defense, even without turrets.

Here's how I did it. I built my colony underground and with a defensive gauntlet. Like so,
http://tinyurl.com/mg7o83k

Granted, this exploits the Enemies' combat AI. (When enemies attack, they go into 3 types of behavior when engaged with your colonists. They try to melee rush, range from the best cover or try to flank your position.)

This defensive hall puts your colonists behind maximum cover while providing the invaders with absolutely none, forcing their ranged units into the flanking behavior which in this case defaults to standing uselessly in full sight banging on doors. You then proceed to shoot down the melee rushers and then picking them off at your leisure.

Once you kill most of them it will trigger a rout, where upon your two colonists (with the highest melee) waiting in the furthest alcove pops out from their hiding spots and trap the remaining raiders.

Should you ever need to move your colonists up and down the hall while the combat is going on, the loopholes should assist in them doing so out of sight.

And should the unthinkable happen and the invaders manage to break through into the loopholes, strategically placed walls and mines should make short work of them.


Having said all this, I've a feeling come the official alpha release, most of this isn't going to work as well. =P Keep that in mind
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: salt1219 on November 02, 2013, 11:39:38 PM
@kevlar
I'm impressed, that is a very well thought out strategy.
i had a few ideas of my own that would need testing.  i thought about placing doors out in the open to see if raiders would attack them and if they did i was going to turn them into traps.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Tynan on November 02, 2013, 11:57:00 PM
Nice raider funnel Kevlar. An interesting alternative to the waffle funnel, which is the other main degenerate strategy I've been seeing. It'll be a fun design challenge to make a challenge/raid system that makes these setups a bit more dynamic (read, not unbeatable).
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: thekillergreece on November 03, 2013, 01:08:55 AM
If I am not wrong, the more colonists/turrets you got, the more raiders will attack you...Thats all I have seen...
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Eonwulf on November 03, 2013, 01:50:40 AM
Did I miss my game download at some point? How do I start playing the game?
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: OldFilthy on November 03, 2013, 04:52:50 AM
Quote from: Tynan on November 02, 2013, 11:57:00 PM
Nice raider funnel Kevlar. An interesting alternative to the waffle funnel, which is the other main degenerate strategy I've been seeing. It'll be a fun design challenge to make a challenge/raid system that makes these setups a bit more dynamic (read, not unbeatable).

I think when the player has that much control over the fight, and the area they fight in the only way to make it interesting is uneven odds, or creating an event that either forces the player out of their 'bunker' or makes them want to leave their bunker.

Maybe having the AI build a base for the player to assault would probably be better than leaving the player alone to make an uneven battle field. It wouldn't take much, just a few sand bags that the raiders retreat to and decide to camp when they lose maybe 75% of their force rather than waiting till they lose 90%, and if the player ignores them, the surviving raiders try to control the area while avoiding the player camp until more raiders come to fill their numbers up. Leaving the raiders alone means constant threat of larger assaults, and a bigger raider camp to deal with later.

I think this idea has two big plus points, first it lowers the initial bar for success for large camp defence, secondly it forces the player to initiate a fight (albeit on a weakened enemy) but against their defences.

However after saying all that, I don't think this should happen for every raider attack, I'd say one in six or maybe even lower.

I think there should be times when the raiders simply run in steal your food and metal and then make a break for it, only attacking when they meet resistance.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Technical Ben on November 03, 2013, 12:03:15 PM
Quote from: Kevlar on November 02, 2013, 09:29:02 PM
I've recently started a new game on Randy Random with the self imposed challenge of no turrets in the colony. So far I've annihilated a raider force of 15 with only 5 shooters (2 shotguns, 1 M16, 2 Lee-Enfields). It isn't difficult once you start thinking about your colony design in terms of ease of defense, even without turrets.

Here's how I did it. I built my colony underground and with a defensive gauntlet. Like so,
http://tinyurl.com/mg7o83k

Granted, this exploits the Enemies' combat AI. (When enemies attack, they go into 3 types of behavior when engaged with your colonists. They try to melee rush, range from the best cover or try to flank your position.)

This defensive hall puts your colonists behind maximum cover while providing the invaders with absolutely none, forcing their ranged units into the flanking behavior which in this case defaults to standing uselessly in full sight banging on doors. You then proceed to shoot down the melee rushers and then picking them off at your leisure.

Once you kill most of them it will trigger a rout, where upon your two colonists (with the highest melee) waiting in the furthest alcove pops out from their hiding spots and trap the remaining raiders.

Should you ever need to move your colonists up and down the hall while the combat is going on, the loopholes should assist in them doing so out of sight.

And should the unthinkable happen and the invaders manage to break through into the loopholes, strategically placed walls and mines should make short work of them.


Having said all this, I've a feeling come the official alpha release, most of this isn't going to work as well. =P Keep that in mind
If I'm not mistaken, you appear to be replicating Prisoner Cell block H there. Else you have subconscious decisions playing out you did not realize. ;)
Giving the raiders a method for pushing colonists out of defensive positions would be one method of preventing defenses abuse.

A really easy (hopefully) way to achieve this would be to have raiders set fires. Alternatively you could add gas/smoke.

Another dynamic response from the raiders could be to send in dogs/boom rats for close quarters attacks (which require a retreat to successfully repel currently).
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: ocelot113 on November 04, 2013, 08:42:13 PM
I'm getting close to stopping because my people just keep going insane and I can't find an explanation as to why. It says that dead bodies need to be buried and it needs to be clean, so I keep 1 person cleaning and hauling only but they still go nuts.

Any ideas?
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Scelestic on November 04, 2013, 10:25:19 PM
Ya.. Owch. I can't even get a proper base going.. 2nd Raider Attack always just kicks my butt.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Zorbane on November 04, 2013, 10:42:37 PM
Quote from: ocelot113 on November 04, 2013, 08:42:13 PM
I'm getting close to stopping because my people just keep going insane and I can't find an explanation as to why. It says that dead bodies need to be buried and it needs to be clean, so I keep 1 person cleaning and hauling only but they still go nuts.

Any ideas?

Do you have a grave for the dead bodies?
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Pendryn on November 05, 2013, 09:03:02 AM
Quote from: OldFilthy on November 03, 2013, 04:52:50 AM
I think when the player has that much control over the fight, and the area they fight in the only way to make it interesting is uneven odds, or creating an event that either forces the player out of their 'bunker' or makes them want to leave their bunker.

Maybe having the AI build a base for the player to assault would probably be better than leaving the player alone to make an uneven battle field. It wouldn't take much, just a few sand bags that the raiders retreat to and decide to camp when they lose maybe 75% of their force rather than waiting till they lose 90%, and if the player ignores them, the surviving raiders try to control the area while avoiding the player camp until more raiders come to fill their numbers up. Leaving the raiders alone means constant threat of larger assaults, and a bigger raider camp to deal with later.

I think this idea has two big plus points, first it lowers the initial bar for success for large camp defence, secondly it forces the player to initiate a fight (albeit on a weakened enemy) but against their defences.

However after saying all that, I don't think this should happen for every raider attack, I'd say one in six or maybe even lower.

I think there should be times when the raiders simply run in steal your food and metal and then make a break for it, only attacking when they meet resistance.

Another solution, which would actually be amazing, is having certain raiders attack with tunneling equipment that can knock through a single solid block in a matter of seconds and a wall block in a few more. This would eliminate any ultimate defense and the AI would want to do this as it would naturally be considered flanking.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: ticktockbent on November 05, 2013, 09:43:49 AM
The only time I've had real trouble is when events conspire to screw up my planned defenses.

Eclipse followed by a solar flare knocks out all of my power, everyone is miserable due to a long time eating raw food in the dark. Raiders attack equipped with frag grenades and other explosives. Things like that.

The game is a lot of fun though, I'm enjoying the challenge. I guess thats the part of my brain that loves Dwarf Fortress talking.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: ocelot113 on November 05, 2013, 12:58:10 PM
Quote from: Zorbane on November 04, 2013, 10:42:37 PM
Quote from: ocelot113 on November 04, 2013, 08:42:13 PM
I'm getting close to stopping because my people just keep going insane and I can't find an explanation as to why. It says that dead bodies need to be buried and it needs to be clean, so I keep 1 person cleaning and hauling only but they still go nuts.

Any ideas?

Do you have a grave for the dead bodies?

Yeah, I figured it out. It has to be well lit and the potted plants are a must I guess. I do perfectly fine in my own room without lights on or a bush, so didn't think it'd be important.

Back the the original post though. The raiders are SO much better than most settlers at combat, especially early on when you are limited with people. Also, explosives HAVE to be toned down. Without using door glitches and all, they just mow down your entire town and never run out. I'd say limit explosives, 3 grenades, 5 Molotov's, etc. Never ending grenades is so op for attacking and almost useless for defense as you will be blowing the crap out of all your stuff.

This also brings me to doctors. No one needs a PhD to feed someone in a bed. That Is an unreasonable limitation to the settlers. Where as there have been many times that my guys are injured in a fight but I pull through with one guy. The only one left can't be a doctor, so I just restart. They can bring them to the bed but just let them starve to death. Most of the time the guy that's left has no social because they tend to be the better fighters, so I can't recruit and that's GG.

I get you want to make the roles matter they just need some major tweaking to not be game ending, but instead optimizers of your colony (personally I think they should have "perks" for being able to do a skill as opposed to making the game impossible to progress). The current spiral of GG is less fun than frustrating. I don't feel rewarded at all for surviving a fight because I can't pick back up, but just have to restart.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: ticktockbent on November 05, 2013, 02:45:30 PM
Quote from: ocelot113 on November 05, 2013, 12:58:10 PMI do perfectly fine in my own room without lights on or a bush, so didn't think it'd be important.
You don't live on an alien planet where a bad thunderstorm can burn down your whole colony, or a sniper team of raiders might randomly show up and shoot you while you're gardening. Please don't try to draw a parallel between your safe bedroom and a room on a colony on an alien world full of danger.
Title: Re: I have stopped playing the game because of raiders
Post by: Bodog999 on May 06, 2014, 10:29:21 AM
In Alpha 3 I have the same problem first there comes 1 pirate raider or 3 tribe members but then, I get 3-7 pirate raiders or about 9+ tribe members in the second raid