Since the discussion of Raiders and Traders (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=336.0 (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=336.0)) when so well I thought I start another.
Should there be money in RimWorld?
In the setting of RimWorld there is no Faster Than Light (FTL) travel, so it can take decades to travel to even a "close" star system. In that time what guarantee would colonist have that their money would be worth anything when they get there, or that any traders would accept it as tender?
What do you folks think?
I have one possible solution: That is to replace money with a precious resource like gold or platinum, or maybe something more exotic like tantalum. This would be used like money and doesn't require more then cosmetic changes to the current game.
In the future this could also be a mine-able resource allowing colonies quick access to an infusion of "easy" money. As a mine-able resource it also allows Tynan to create map generation algorithms that favor "money" generation over metal, making for a colony that has to be more trade focused, as it would have to buy its resources.
I think this brings up a valid point. I'd even be fine with it having to be a material trade only like Dwarf Fortress where the currency is just a valuation of the goods being traded.
You could do currency in a dynamic way almost. Everything you start a new colony, depending on where you crash determines the type of currency you use and the value of it.
Crashing on one planet makes you use gold as a currency. Gold being gold, it has a high value, meaning you have to use less of it to buy something.
While crashing on a different planet make you adopt...I don't know...bottles or coloured glass as a currency (Maybe even similar to how bottle caps were used as a currency in Fallout). This particular currency would have a very low value, meaning you would need to use more or it to buy something.
You could even have multiple currencies active. You can acquire different currencies that each have different values. Though it would be more interesting to stay away from real currency like dollars or pounds.
Just a quick thought anyways.
Quote from: MrDemonic on November 01, 2013, 01:33:39 PM
You could do currency in a dynamic way almost. Everything you start a new colony, depending on where you crash determines the type of currency you use and the value of it.
Crashing on one planet makes you use gold as a currency. Gold being gold, it has a high value, meaning you have to use less of it to buy something.
While crashing on a different planet make you adopt...I don't know...bottles or coloured glass as a currency (Maybe even similar to how bottle caps were used as a currency in Fallout). This particular currency would have a very low value, meaning you would need to use more or it to buy something.
You could even have multiple currencies active. You can acquire different currencies that each have different values. Though it would be more interesting to stay away from real currency like dollars or pounds.
Just a quick thought anyways.
This is all really interesting, but very complex to program. So it won't be something we'll see any time soon. But great ideas, nonetheless.
It wouldn't be all that complicated to randomly generate a currency, and the only reason it would be harder to have multiple currencies is that I doubt the game is set up for traders to refuse particular currencies (as it would be pointless to have multiple currencies if all were accepted).
The currency is largely a matter of player enjoyment. A simple store of value that lets you feel good for selling things without letting you buy too much useful stuff. Until they realize that they're rarely spending money, anyway. :)
Lore wise, currency could make sense if its value were tied to a resource. Perhaps to address the concerns of inflation, the space government went back to the gold standard and every space-dollar is worth a set amount of gold or some other valuable scarce resource.
Quote from: Enjou on November 01, 2013, 04:08:16 PM
Lore wise, currency could make sense if its value were tied to a resource. Perhaps to address the concerns of inflation, the space government went back to the gold standard and every space-dollar is worth a set amount of gold or some other valuable scarce resource.
The only problem there is there is no one government or level of technology. So while the use of currency within your own region of space would/should be a simple mater, the problems arise when dealing with "unknown" cultures.
While your "paper" dollars may work sometimes, what happens when you get to the planet where the primary form of currency is dung beetles?
Quote from: Enjou on November 01, 2013, 04:08:16 PM
Lore wise, currency could make sense if its value were tied to a resource. Perhaps to address the concerns of inflation, the space government went back to the gold standard and every space-dollar is worth a set amount of gold or some other valuable scarce resource.
Wow, that sounds a lot like a political argument disguised as a game suggestion.
Fiat currency would still be worth something in a science fiction setting as long as it was fiat currency for an economy where someone can easily find someone who wants to spend money there. The Spacetropolis system and its massive economy would probably have a lot of non-citizens spending their spacebucks because the traders who service the outlying areas spend a lot of time in Spacetropolis (and many are probably based out of there). Backwaterburg's planetary currency probably isn't worth a whole lot offworld though, and even on planets near it its currency is probably a bargain.
Since there is no strong central government, a fiat currency doesn't really make sense in this context. When stockpiles are working better I'm going to remove the arbitrary money currency and replace it with fungible, granular commodities like gold and silver (which may still have uses of their own).
Quote from: Tynan on November 01, 2013, 04:55:45 PM
Since there is no strong central government, a fiat currency doesn't really make sense in this context. When stockpiles are working better I'm going to remove the arbitrary money currency and replace it with fungible, granular commodities like gold and silver (which may still have uses of their own).
Similar to what I was exactly going to post!
My original post before Ty posted:
Quote
You could just use...everything as a currency. Sounds odd I know, but I mean that in the sense of everything you can pick up, mine, craft, grow and so on has a value. So instead of you simply giving money to a trader for an item. You...well trade with the trader!
It's commodity money: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_money
I would've liked to see a real barter system, where everything is assigned a value and goods are exchanged directly. And unlike most barter systems in games, one of these days I'd like to see one where goods are worth different amounts to different people. Obviously we can't let the player participate in setting prices, but it'd be neat if every trader that stops by your planet prices his goods a little differently. It could usually just be small variations, but it'd be neat if once in a while a trader is desperate to offload something, or refuses to part with certain goods for way above their average cost; and on the flip side sometimes nothing you have will be of much interest to a trader, but once in a while they might covet something you have and offer a huge sum for it.
I think it'd make for some interesting stories :) Especially tied in with your story teller AIs, I can see some real potential there (as long as it doesn't become so formulaic that a trader doesn't show up selling the thing need for exorbitant prices every time you need something desperately).
The traders have different prices! It's a simple system, but it's there. Metal is cheaper from industrial traders, food from farm vessels, and so on.
Now I could see pushing this in a more story-oriented direction, with, say, an individual who comes to the colony offering a crazy deal on a single strange artifact or weapons or product. Or offers to buy strange sets of your goods, like taking all your guns for a really really high price.
Quote from: Tynan on November 02, 2013, 12:20:28 AM
The traders have different prices! It's a simple system, but it's there. Metal is cheaper from industrial traders, food from farm vessels, and so on.
Now I could see pushing this in a more story-oriented direction, with, say, an individual who comes to the colony offering a crazy deal on a single strange artifact or weapons or product. Or offers to buy strange sets of your goods, like taking all your guns for a really really high price.
Awesome! I can't wait to play this game... I've been following since you announced it on the bay12 forums, and everything I learn about it makes the itch to play it even worse. Sometimes I wish I wouldn't find out about these kinds of games until they're actually available ;)
Quote from: Tynan on November 02, 2013, 12:20:28 AM
Now I could see pushing this in a more story-oriented direction, with, say, an individual who comes to the colony offering a crazy deal on a single strange artifact or weapons or product. Or offers to buy strange sets of your goods, like taking all your guns for a really really high price.
color me immensely intrigued... ;)
On one hand I think there shouldn't be money but just trading for goods and those goods have wildly varying value depending on the sort of trade ship. Like, good luck buying high tech supplies with hydoponically grown tomatoes.
Without changing the sytem too much the various types of vessels could change their pricing scheme so that traders who offer high tier goods demand a price where you can't just throw 1k potatoes at them. Idle games like cookie clicker use arithmetics where it would take years or decades if you don't upgrade your shit to higher tiers, you know where I'm getting at?
On the other hand mankind has been using money for thousands of years and I don't think that will completely regress even in times of space travel.
Quote from: rh on November 02, 2013, 04:34:43 AM
On the other hand mankind has been using money for thousands of years and I don't think that will completely regress even in times of space travel.
Yet many cultures even today use bartering either as their sole source of "currency" or as a significant portion of it. Even in the industiral/post-industrial world you find bartering a legitimate form of payment. Obviously not on as large a scale, but it's alive and well.
Quote from: Tynan on November 02, 2013, 12:20:28 AM
like taking all your guns for a really really high price.
Oh this could be a fun idea. Trade all your guns and the person you traded them with raids you immediately, however if they know you didn't trade all of your weapons then they probably won't raid you.
So many possibilities with this.
Quote from: warmwaffles on November 02, 2013, 11:45:06 AM
Oh this could be a fun idea. Trade all your guns and the person you traded them with raids you immediately, however if they know you didn't trade all of your weapons then they probably won't raid you.
So many possibilities with this.
Oh how devilishly evil! I really like that idea!! :-)
I think that a system similar to Dwarf Fortress would be cool, where you can use ores and resources to craft items which can then be traded on for anything important. Higher levels of crafting could mean better quality items to be traded for more items
Quote from: Orch on November 02, 2013, 11:51:45 AM
I think that a system similar to Dwarf Fortress would be cool, where you can use ores and resources to craft items which can then be traded on for anything important. Higher levels of crafting could mean better quality items to be traded for more items
Barter system is definitely a good currency in a place with no real authoritative government other than your own colony.
Quote from: miah999 on November 01, 2013, 12:09:40 PM
In the setting of RimWorld there is no Faster Than Light (FTL) travel, so it can take decades to travel to even a "close" star system. In that time what guarantee would colonist have that their money would be worth anything when they get there, or that any traders would accept it as tender?
Within the principles of relativity, travelling to a distant star might take a few decades to the outside world but the person inside the spacecraft could only experience a few weeks passing if you travelled approaching the speed of light.
So travelling to a distant star isn't that big of a risk to someone if your ship can travel very close to c! That is, unless you don't want your friends and family back home being a few decades or hundred years older when you get back.
Quote from: Tynan on November 01, 2013, 04:55:45 PM
Since there is no strong central government, a fiat currency doesn't really make sense in this context. When stockpiles are working better I'm going to remove the arbitrary money currency and replace it with fungible, granular commodities like gold and silver (which may still have uses of their own).
How about something futuristic and fictional like Dilithium (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Dilithium) from Star Trek?
Superlurker finally comes out into the open :'(
Anyway, He3 would be a better bet than dilithium or anything arbitrary... He3 is going to be a very precious resource to any space faring culture given its use in fusion drives (ala project Daedalus) and usefully mechanic-wise impossible to find on bioactive worlds. It's never going to lose value to a non-FTL species and is essentially useless to anyone but starship crews. Still, using it as a currency makes perfect sense and also adds inflation of its own depending on how far from any given source the trade takes place :)
A quibble: that's not "true" inflation, that's the effect of a dwindling supply versus a constant demand. Price goes up, it's true, but for a different reason.
Wouldn't any kind of fuel be a bit... Bulky for major transactions though? I mean, sure, you could siphon a bit off of a trader's supply to even out a transaction and have a very safe bet that the next trader would accept it as payment, but it's really more of a good than a currency.