So a thought just occurred to me on a method to fix Rimworld armor without radically changing anything.
Most players are more interested in preventing critical injuries ("Damn, my pawn's brain got shot out!") than significant damage reduction. The old armor system which applied a flat percentage helped a bit; your organ would get injured but would then heal. (Not sure about brains healing) The new system tends to be all-or-nothing which isn't much help.
But we could keep the current 100% / 50% dynamic and still have usable armor... if we just extended that division to 25%, 12%, 6%, and so on. That is, when the attack percentage is higher than the armor value, the armor *still* reduces the damage, just by a lower percent.
So say you have 50% armor, reduced to 40% by a 10% penetration attack. And then the attack gets a 67% attack value. 67% / 40% = 1.675, so that falls in the 1.5 - 2.0 bracket, which means only 12% of the damage is absorbed. Maybe that's enough to keep your colonist's stomach intact.
Note this would allows stacking weak armors to actually be useful. Your devilstrand duster and devilstrand t-shirt would actually produce some damage reduction in addition to your flak vest.
I think it addresses a real problem which is the really jarring steps between 0, 50%, and 100%.
Daily Reminder that having a colony of disfigured cripples makes for a good story. /s
The problem of "I can't be invulnerable, fix it!" seems to ... not ... be a problem.
There SHOULD be tradeoffs from wearing armor like there are now. Normal clothing just shouldn't do much versus sniper rifle fire or great bow arrows hitting your chest. You need actual armor for that to do anything.
Just make armor working like in real life. For example we have a typical flak vest ie. flexible kevlar vest. It should completely protect from bullets like SMGs, shotgun to torso, dont protect shoulders or legs. Armor will wear off by absorbing shots, and then even said SMGs and shotguns will pierce it eventually. Marine armor should protect from rifles and charge rifle/glitterworld weapons, but again getting hit wears off the armor and you would eventually get through. Game would benefit from adding more armor, and armors that cover more and less at the cost of weight, so flak vest with shoulder pads and thigh pads, or flak vest with plate insert. Fights would be protracted, less chaotic and RNG prone. But melee users would benefit from that, and most of kevlar vests dont protect from sharp knifes at all[ironically protect well against bullets, but knifes go through at relative ease], unless equipped with plate inserts.
How about a very video-gamey solution: armor takes 100% of the damage, but has vastly reduced hitpoints compared to now. So a simple helmet might have 25 hitpoints but will absorb the entire damage. Obviously, it will also break very quickly under sustained fire.
This would make armor expensive to use, but effective.
Quote from: b0rsuk on October 03, 2018, 01:15:51 PM
How about a very video-gamey solution: armor takes 100% of the damage, but has vastly reduced hitpoints compared to now. So a simple helmet might have 25 hitpoints but will absorb the entire damage. Obviously, it will also break very quickly under sustained fire.
This would make armor expensive to use, but effective.
Actually this would be a good idea to differ between clothing and armor, making armor less likely to break because of higher durability and casual clothing can take a shot but will break quickly in combat.
You think your Tshirt would stop a screw driver, let alone an armor piercing sniper round?
Even kevlar doesn't stop an armor piercing sniper round -- not even with steel plating behind it. Not sure why these people keep expecting very powerful projectiles to be stopped by conventional armor and clothing.
Quote from: Scavenger on October 04, 2018, 05:39:29 AM
You think your Tshirt would stop a screw driver, let alone an armor piercing sniper round?
I think a leather shirt would be useful vs a screwdriver.
I think it's just helmets that need re-examined. If a simple helmet can't help against what's probably the worst ranged weapon (or is that molotov cocktail?), what's the point of helmets? I mean it was a shortbow that instakilled my colonist.
Plate armor is indeed quite good. I had a colonist wearing an excellent steel one withstand attacks from 3 drifters and dishing out death with a plasteel knife. Plate armor covers arms and legs, but uses the torso armor slot. You can currently wear it with pants and a shirt.
So plate armor is a metal duster. Sounds effective.
As for armor and storytelling... it's unfortunately fairly realistic that a colony that has survived dozens of firefights is going to accumulate a lot of permanent injuries and fatalities along the way. But for gameplay purposes we want to feel like armor is doing something useful. A steel pot on your head should have a better than 30% chance of keeping your brain inside. (Eyes and jaws, on the other hand... well, that's more storytelling, right?)
What might help is if complete organ replacement were a technology high up on the vanilla tech tree so that you wouldn't look at permanent injuries as truly permanent, but rather as a motivation to research the tech to grow a new jaw in a vat.
It seems like Rimworld colonists wear their organs on the outside. I don't know about you, but my brain is protected by a really hard skull. Destroying my heart is also not a simple matter of hitting me where the heart is - there are ribs in the way. But in Rimword, if you know the magic spot to hit, BAM instant death. You don't even have to hit hard. A rolled up newspaper would suffice.
It's a quasi-realistic system which in some ways ends up even less realistic (and annoying!) than simpler systems in most other games. Turtles biting your eyes, colonists fighting and headbutting someone's knee, predators on the map being the first to die (bleeding to death from wounds inflicted by herbivores).
I quite enjoy how the current armor system works. A straight improvement from the last imo.
The biggest problem I have now is that colonists seem to frequently get there head blown off by Lancers more than I care. But shit it happens
QuoteI think it's just helmets that need re-examined. If a simple helmet can't help against what's probably the worst ranged weapon (or is that molotov cocktail?), what's the point of helmets? I mean it was a shortbow that instakilled my colonist.
In real life, a helmet doesn't stop a bullet. They are for shrapnel from artillery fire, grenades, and other types of explosions (or simply from debris flying as a result of bullets flying around you).
I do agree that arrows should not have the penetrative power of a bullet, though -- a helmet would in fact protect you from a shortbow arrow. A great bow arrow not so much.
But keep in mind a helmet won't protect you from an arrow that goes in through your eye. So we should still occasionally see colonists getting brained by shortbows... just very very rarely.
(60% of head hits >> rarely)
It would definitely help if rimworld modelled interior *bone* armor. So before the arrow can smash your brain it has to first smash your skull. Likewise an arrow has to destroy your sternum first. And like with any armor there's a chance it would "slip through" -- an arrow to the eye, a knife between the ribs, and oops, you're dead.
Quotean arrow to the eye knee
Quote from: b0rsuk on October 05, 2018, 12:46:56 AM
It seems like Rimworld colonists wear their organs on the outside. I don't know about you, but my brain is protected by a really hard skull. Destroying my heart is also not a simple matter of hitting me where the heart is - there are ribs in the way. But in Rimword, if you know the magic spot to hit, BAM instant death. You don't even have to hit hard. A rolled up newspaper would suffice.
It's a quasi-realistic system which in some ways ends up even less realistic (and annoying!) than simpler systems in most other games. Turtles biting your eyes, colonists fighting and headbutting someone's knee, predators on the map being the first to die (bleeding to death from wounds inflicted by herbivores).
The carnivores dying thing is really annoying. They should be easily overcome. A rat should not kill a cobra.
The rat weighs like 8 kilograms dude. An 8 kilogram rat can totally take down a cobra.
WTF? Rats are 20 pounds? What is this? The Princess Bride?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYj_krIHoLs
Quote from: vzoxz0
In real life, a helmet doesn't stop a bullet. They are for shrapnel from artillery fire, grenades, and other types of explosions (or simply from debris flying as a result of bullets flying around you).
In Rimworld, there's no shrapnel, debris and ricochets.
In real life, helmets have an actual purpose. In Rimworld - not really.
Quote from: Thane on October 05, 2018, 01:49:37 PM
WTF? Rats are 20 pounds? What is this? The Princess Bride?
LOL!!! ROUS!
As for helmets and bullets... if you're lying on the ground, and he's standing above you and shoots down straight at your head, yeah, you're gonna die. But if he's standing 50 feet away and hits the top of the helmet it has a good chance of deflecting it. Your skull wouldn't hold up nearly as well.
Quote from: vzoxz0 on October 05, 2018, 04:08:21 AM
QuoteI think it's just helmets that need re-examined. If a simple helmet can't help against what's probably the worst ranged weapon (or is that molotov cocktail?), what's the point of helmets? I mean it was a shortbow that instakilled my colonist.
In real life, a helmet doesn't stop a bullet.
They do. Modern helmets can stop even rifle bullets. They just don't retain the protection after the first bullet hits, though.
Quote from: zizard on October 04, 2018, 02:57:38 PM
Quote from: Scavenger on October 04, 2018, 05:39:29 AM
You think your Tshirt would stop a screw driver, let alone an armor piercing sniper round?
I think a leather shirt would be useful vs a screwdriver.
Ya, leather would help vs that, and a bit vs knives. But not vs bullets lol.
Quote from: b0rsuk on October 05, 2018, 12:46:56 AM
It seems like Rimworld colonists wear their organs on the outside. I don't know about you, but my brain is protected by a really hard skull. Destroying my heart is also not a simple matter of hitting me where the heart is - there are ribs in the way. But in Rimword, if you know the magic spot to hit, BAM instant death. You don't even have to hit hard. A rolled up newspaper would suffice.
It's a quasi-realistic system which in some ways ends up even less realistic (and annoying!) than simpler systems in most other games. Turtles biting your eyes, colonists fighting and headbutting someone's knee, predators on the map being the first to die (bleeding to death from wounds inflicted by herbivores).
A turtle biting your eye out is amazing lol. They have bitten the tale off many of my big cat pets:P
I believe predators have a stun ability on their first attack to give them the upper hand when hunting, but it should be a bit more than that.. I don't see them die too often when wild, but my tamed ones get ridiculous injuries from hunting all the time.
Quote from: Shurp on October 05, 2018, 07:48:18 AM
But keep in mind a helmet won't protect you from an arrow that goes in through your eye. So we should still occasionally see colonists getting brained by shortbows... just very very rarely.
(60% of head hits >> rarely)
It would definitely help if rimworld modelled interior *bone* armor. So before the arrow can smash your brain it has to first smash your skull. Likewise an arrow has to destroy your sternum first. And like with any armor there's a chance it would "slip through" -- an arrow to the eye, a knife between the ribs, and oops, you're dead.
that would be cool!
Quote from: Thane on October 05, 2018, 01:49:37 PM
WTF? Rats are 20 pounds? What is this? The Princess Bride?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYj_krIHoLs
ROUS are no joke! They've got teeth like this!!
Also, rats and other rodents do often leave nasty scars on snakes and other predators irl. I've found many snakes with gashes and warped scales from it, even anacondas get it pretty bad from capybara and what not. And rodent bites are known to leave bad infections lol. Maybe not so far off as you would think. But bigger predators would generally kill them near instantly, dogs and big cats and crap.
Quote from: Shurp on October 05, 2018, 07:48:18 AM
But keep in mind a helmet won't protect you from an arrow that goes in through your eye. So we should still occasionally see colonists getting brained by shortbows... just very very rarely.
(60% of head hits >> rarely)
It would definitely help if rimworld modelled interior *bone* armor. So before the arrow can smash your brain it has to first smash your skull. Likewise an arrow has to destroy your sternum first. And like with any armor there's a chance it would "slip through" -- an arrow to the eye, a knife between the ribs, and oops, you're dead.
This was planned at one point but I guess it was scrapped:
Quote from: Tynan on July 20, 2018, 08:07:57 AM
Also please bear in mind there's more we're already planning to do. For example, I've asked Ison to rework how damage interacts with body parts with a new design. The effects will be subtle on the outside but one of them will be that internal damage is mitigated depending on its type (e.g. if you get a bruise on your internal organs it'll be weaker than the bruise on the surface, etc). This and many other things are planned.
I'm much more concerned that in this armor system we currently have, even partially mitigated damage (converted to blunt) can easily kill your pawns. I have seen multiple times situation like that guy in excellent marine armor got hit in the chest with charge blaster and the round got mitigated, but he had bruise on the torso and crush on some internal organ like heart, quite often sending it to the "red", sometimes even destoying it...