Its not the 1st time I complain on this forum about raiders teleporting since 1.1 came out. Just see this 3 minutes video and tell me that this is not game breaking. This is seriously hurting my ability to enjoy this game. So will this ever be fixed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFNgn6zfjfw
Your game state made my eyeballs bleed.
I don't even care what problems you're having when you're at the edge of the game's possible realities like that.
What game possble realities are you talking about? The teleporting can be seen with only 10 raiders on the map. My very 1st colony in 1.1 was killed by 20 megasloths; I was expecting them to decompress but instead they all just walked inside (teleported) past the dudes doing melee blocking. Right, but you dont care because I dont have individual rooms and dont use carpets. Really good arguments to excuse 100% broken game behaviour.
LakeWobegon,
do you use mods ? Because i don't think that behavior happen normaly, but i notice similar when i used mods too.
Since my skills to made video's are poor i just made 2 pics with a similar, but not that extreme, enviroment you showed at your video.
And the scyther don't work in.
Mods have nothing to do with it, your schythers did not teleport because your setup gives them a LOT of space to decompress (short corridor) on top of it you sacrificed animals just to make sure (as much as possible) that they would go to drafted mode before engaging your colonists. The use of animals doesn't even consistently work as they might just decide to compress again. If you want to do a serious simulation of what the video shows, make a multi-purpose corridor that does not let you get shot by more than 3 ranged units at a time; make the entrance be at at least 30 cells distance from your pawn doing the blocking and then spawn a raid of 50 scythers (8k fun points which is well below the fun point cap of 1.1); enjoy seeing your pawns surrounded by schythers in just a few game ticks. This did NOT happen in 1.0 and it breaks the game. Why does it break the game? Because as the size of the raid increases they can easilly fill a 30 cells corridor with drafted units while the other ones (not drafted) are always trying to push; getting teleported to the back of the line and forcing others to be pushed forwards much faster than their in-game speed allows for. The amount of lag is just unberable if I have +200 units or more on the map.
If the raiders are sappers, then the potential for teleporting just goes trhought the roof when they stop being sappers due to the leading sapper being killed. I had a situation where in just a few ticks the +100 raiders filled the +30 cells corridor they were trying to sapp into and my guy that was suppose to close the door (long story) ended up surronded by ~30 dudes before the door could close, completely filling the entire room (at least 30 dudes moved inside my house from some 30 cells distance in the time that it takes to close the door; ofc that was caused by mods, ofc because what else could have caused it).
Btw it is clear to me that Tynan knows about this problem but refuses to acknowledge it publicly AFAIK and to say if it is going to be addressed sometime in the future. Why do I say he knows about it? Because that is the only plausible explanation for the fun points cap being halved by comparison with 1.0 and 1.1 at release. So instead of a cap of 20k fun points we now have a cap of 10k. This means much weaker raids, which means less raiders on the map which means much less potential for teleportation and lag. There is just a "tiny" issue with that: RimWorld has become boring for ppl expecting a challenge, this game is now strong against the weak but a thootless bulldog when one is strong. There is no longer any incentive for me to build a large colony if the raids are mindboggling weak because of glaring issues with the pathing system. Anyone trying to be challenged and bypassing the fun points cap risks seeing what we see in the video; heck what we see in the video can even be seen without going above the cap like I saidfd above. IMO anyone looking for a real challenge has no option but to revert back to 1.0 untill this is fixed (if it will ever be fixed) which is a bloody shame because I did enjoy some of the things that were added or fixed with 1.1 and above.
Just saying that i observed similar things with huge raids and mods have nothing to do with it. It's a shame to lose a good colony to raid that decided to teleport behind your ranks.
Never seen this happen.
I suggest you log a proper bug report in the Bugs sub forum.
Quote from: LakeWobegon on August 12, 2020, 09:28:07 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFNgn6zfjfw
Well that's a meat shield alright!
I really feel like this was always the case (even at 1.0 and before) with huge raids, I mean the teleporting. But I could be wrong.
But still if this is new or not, I agree that it breaks the balance for sure, since the only way to survive something like that is to avoid getting surrounded.
Maybe a workaround might be reducing the size of the room where your colonists and animals stand to fight? I'll run some tests and report back if I find anything interesting.
Well I just tried to reproduce the teleportation on a 100% vanilla save on version 1.2.2725 (I know, I use mods too but we gotta eliminate variables, baby steps), and I could not reproduce the behavior you show on your video.
I tried to use the same pattern for the corridor you use on your video. There are 198 scythers, that's 3 individual 10k raids using dev mode, but don't worry they're all nicely packed up, if you're gonna try the save for yourself just deconstruct all barricades they are attacking using godmode that they will rush in like you see in the video.
And btw, the video has absolutely no editing so it's 21min long, use youtube's speed up if you wish to watch it, but there is not much to see, just 198 scythers not teleporting.
Well actually just now I realized that my corridor pattern is not exactly the same as yours, and my scythers are drafting from further away then yours seem to. Maybe the corridor pattern has an inpact? I'll try again with a corridor as close as I can make to yours in pattern and length.
Your corridor seems to have only 35-37 length on the section that is only 1 wide, it seems too small to me so I tried again with that length and changed the pattern a bit to make it closer to yours, still no teleportation.
Maybe you had more than 200 scythers? Or maybe they changed something on the unstable version (the one I'm running) that fixed it. I'm running the unstable version because it fixes a problem related to colonists not meditating when sick.
Video attempt #1 link: https://youtu.be/J2HYVTwxB_M
Video attempt #2 link: https://youtu.be/BTS875uj9GY
Save link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IU6yeKINtXXb4HUyuoc0YOht-V1JnMcG/view?usp=sharing
I tried again with 330 scythers. Still, no teleportation. Here is the video: https://youtu.be/WKOQSUe4E04 And the save: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14exK9vRKzzmMOYGi3WX45PLdf4cEmg4Y/view?usp=sharing
My guess it either: 1. they changed something so teleportation doesn't happen;
2. It's because of some mod;
3. It's related to game/pc performance (unlikely since my game was running like 5fps)
And here are my specs if that matters:
Windows 10
16 Gb ram
i7 3.4GHz
GTX 650
This bug happens only rarely, not in every huge raid. But it is nasty enough to be called game-breaking when it happens.
So I don't want to be that guy that says "this problem isn't a problem". But I see rather serious flaws in that defensive layout that go beyond the warping behavior that is the focus of this thread.
Trying to kill 200+ scythers, one at a time, while they also apply melee damage to your animals, while your pawns stand still and lose rest, recreation, and hunger, seems like a losing strategy to me. Even if the warping didn't happen, you'd still have your entire colonist pool locked down for so long that they'd begin to break soon anyways.
Why not get rid of the small intestine-style maze, open it up to a 5 tile-wide corridor, and lock it down with 4 dudes with EMP grenades and the other 14 with frags? You'll suffer no wall damage from the frags if it's five tiles wide. The 200+ scythers will get stunlocked while your 14 grenadiers wipe them out. And you'll be done with the fight probably 20 times sooner. Plus no warping.
Well, we're missing the point tho. I actually saw it happen on other situations that are not as "weird" as this one. Like with sappers as OP mentioned. Although, I couldn't reproduce the effect on a clean save on the latest version. It seems like something has changed.
I'd welcome OP recreating the teleportation behavior under controlled conditions.
Quote from: Mr_Fission on August 17, 2020, 06:32:39 PM
So I don't want to be that guy that says "this problem isn't a problem". But I see rather serious flaws in that defensive layout that go beyond the warping behavior that is the focus of this thread.
Trying to kill 200+ scythers, one at a time, while they also apply melee damage to your animals, while your pawns stand still and lose rest, recreation, and hunger, seems like a losing strategy to me. Even if the warping didn't happen, you'd still have your entire colonist pool locked down for so long that they'd begin to break soon anyways.
Why not get rid of the small intestine-style maze, open it up to a 5 tile-wide corridor, and lock it down with 4 dudes with EMP grenades and the other 14 with frags? You'll suffer no wall damage from the frags if it's five tiles wide. The 200+ scythers will get stunlocked while your 14 grenadiers wipe them out. And you'll be done with the fight probably 20 times sooner. Plus no warping.
Sure because with your suggestion the scythers would not teleport. FYI the hardcore teleportatin showed on the video would still happen even if they were stunned. Btw I go an entire run without a single mental break and basically never lose pawns not even after 40 years in-game and hundreds of raids. So I would say I know what I am doing.
The video from the OP was just a test to see if the teleportation was fixed as I was already done with the run due to pods going haywire landing on top of the mountain and making it collapse as if it was constructed roof (scythers and centipedes with bunker busting bombs attached to their @sses I suppose) . This can only very rarely be seen with 20k fun points raids but it is even more game breaking than teleportation when I have +800 raiders dropping everywhere on the map.
@PicaMula Thank you for your help. I will adress some of your posts later today (I hope) and provide feedback and a solution to avoid teleportation as much as possible.
The solution to avoid teleportation is simple - don't engineer a situation where 300 enemies are forced into a space large enough to hold 100 enemies.
I was able to recreate your "teleportation" behavior to an extent using dev mode. I spawned about 300 scythers, and then gave them a one-tile-wide hallway to run though. They were fine as long as they weren't in combat mode. They clustered up, stacked on top of each other, and moved as a blob. As soon as they entered combat mode, they decompressed, and searched for a way to spread out so that only one guy would occupy each tile. In my test, the decompression only went backwards. Meaning, the dense cluster of enemies was still teleporting, but only backwards.
This decompression behavior is similar to what happens when you put a bunch of corpses in a room, and then strip them all at once. The clothing explodes outwards in a circular pattern, warping outside of walls and whatnot. It's a necessary solution to Rimworld's design where only one thing of the same type can exist in one tile at once.
Quote from: Mr_Fission on August 18, 2020, 12:12:09 PM
The solution to avoid teleportation is simple - don't engineer a situation where 300 enemies are forced into a space large enough to hold 100 enemies.
I was able to recreate your "teleportation" behavior to an extent using dev mode. I spawned about 300 scythers, and then gave them a one-tile-wide hallway to run though. They were fine as long as they weren't in combat mode. They clustered up, stacked on top of each other, and moved as a blob. As soon as they entered combat mode, they decompressed, and searched for a way to spread out so that only one guy would occupy each tile. In my test, the decompression only went backwards. Meaning, the dense cluster of enemies was still teleporting, but only backwards.
This decompression behavior is similar to what happens when you put a bunch of corpses in a room, and then strip them all at once. The clothing explodes outwards in a circular pattern, warping outside of walls and whatnot. It's a necessary solution to Rimworld's design where only one thing of the same type can exist in one tile at once.
I did not start playing this game yesterday, I have 6,2k hours; 5k hours were spent in 1.0 where I did NOT see any teleportation (the only exception were sappers where ***7*** whole dudes once teleported behind my lines out ~200. That happened only ONCE. So something changed that made RimWorld teleporting happy. These days its nearly 100% guaranteed that large sapper raids will ignore melee blocking and push ppl aside or insta kill them (when 30 dudes hit at the same time, simillar to when they are trying to flee at a bottleneck).
Quote from: Mr_Fission on August 18, 2020, 12:12:09 PM
The solution to avoid teleportation is simple - don't engineer a situation where 300 enemies are forced into a space large enough to hold 100 enemies.
I was able to recreate your "teleportation" behavior to an extent using dev mode. I spawned about 300 scythers, and then gave them a one-tile-wide hallway to run though. They were fine as long as they weren't in combat mode. They clustered up, stacked on top of each other, and moved as a blob. As soon as they entered combat mode, they decompressed, and searched for a way to spread out so that only one guy would occupy each tile. In my test, the decompression only went backwards. Meaning, the dense cluster of enemies was still teleporting, but only backwards.
The game doesn't need hundred of enemies for this bug to take place. It's just more apparent & detrimental when more pawns are involved. It can also happen organically when players use extreme choke or maze designs but that is also not required. I've experienced this bug on a smaller scale. I don't normally do maze and stuff, but it's common for me to build small rooms and I flank a lot, I don't remember the situations tho. It also depends on the conditions where enemies "teleport" to, they don't always decompress backwards & could easily surround your colonists.
Quote from: Mr_Fission on August 17, 2020, 09:43:06 PM
I'd welcome OP recreating the teleportation behavior under controlled conditions.
I am not sure what you mean with "controlled" conditions but here is another situation where melee blocking is bypassed by raiders which gives them a huge and unfair advantage (and it happens almost always).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEW1LLg0fys
@PicaMula I watched your videos and I saw the scythers teleporting, they just did not surrond your pawns because you gave them plenty of space to decompress (for example sideways). Also the scythers were not bunched up like when they walk in into the map.
Now to the anti-dote for the majority of teleportations (which fixes the lag too when well implemented). If you like corridors like me, make sure you put a turret, an animal or a colonist behind a closed gate (that leads to the raiders) adjacent to the entrance of your corridor. You need to do that for every 30 cells of corridor lenght or else the raiders will bunch up again and the result will be lag and potential for teleporting. The anti-dote was a courtesy of one of my viewers (thanks again Fungable).
Quote from: LakeWobegon on August 19, 2020, 02:45:34 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEW1LLg0fys
Holy shit man that's extreme! Idk if I never engineered a situation like that or what, but I was not expecting decompression like that, at all. Do you have a save with the setup shown in the video? I'd like to test it for myself.
I notice in the video that you had a ranged colonist but you hid him. I assume that if you didn't hid the ranged guy they didn't decompress like that?
Quote from: LakeWobegon on August 19, 2020, 02:45:34 PM
@PicaMula I watched your videos and I saw the scythers teleporting, they just did not surrond your pawns because you gave them plenty of space to decompress (for example sideways). Also the scythers were not bunched up like when they walk in into the map.
Well yeah I saw them teleporting too but as you said, didn't surround me so I'm fine with that. So at least there are workarounds to that behavior, at least when they are not sappers (when they are too to some extent you can force sappers to a desired location) you can design your defenses to avoid getting them to teleport behind the melee line.
Saw the video. The middle guy got shoved back a tile which gave space for the raiders to get through.
The question is: why did your pawn get pushed back a tile?
Quote from: Jibbles on August 18, 2020, 02:37:15 PM
The game doesn't need hundred of enemies for this bug to take place. It's just more apparent & detrimental when more pawns are involved. It can also happen organically when players use extreme choke or maze designs but that is also not required. I've experienced this bug on a smaller scale. I don't normally do maze and stuff, but it's common for me to build small rooms and I flank a lot, I don't remember the situations tho. It also depends on the conditions where enemies "teleport" to, they don't always decompress backwards & could easily surround your colonists.
Again, the supplied video is an extreme edge case where you have hundreds of enemies crammed into a tight maze. Subsequent testing videos in this thread with smaller numbers of enemies don't display the behavior. My own testing didn't display this behavior until I cranked it up to hundreds of enemies in a tight maze. Anecdotal accounts of this happening on a smaller scale are nice and all, but really, let's see some video evidence of this happening in the current version of the game at a smaller scale.
Also, to the OP, your in-game resume is irrelevant. If you want this behavior fixed, recreate it under controlled conditions so it can be diagnosed. I'm not posting here to annoy you. I'm posting because I like bug hunting.
Quote from: UltimateTobi on August 21, 2020, 01:17:48 PM
Saw the video. The middle guy got shoved back a tile which gave space for the raiders to get through.
The question is: why did your pawn get pushed back a tile?
That is a question for the maker of the game to reply to not me. With that said its blatant cheating by the raiders I know that much.
Quote from: Mr_Fission on August 21, 2020, 06:29:23 PM
Quote from: Jibbles on August 18, 2020, 02:37:15 PM
The game doesn't need hundred of enemies for this bug to take place. It's just more apparent & detrimental when more pawns are involved. It can also happen organically when players use extreme choke or maze designs but that is also not required. I've experienced this bug on a smaller scale. I don't normally do maze and stuff, but it's common for me to build small rooms and I flank a lot, I don't remember the situations tho. It also depends on the conditions where enemies "teleport" to, they don't always decompress backwards & could easily surround your colonists.
Again, the supplied video is an extreme edge case where you have hundreds of enemies crammed into a tight maze. Subsequent testing videos in this thread with smaller numbers of enemies don't display the behavior. My own testing didn't display this behavior until I cranked it up to hundreds of enemies in a tight maze. Anecdotal accounts of this happening on a smaller scale are nice and all, but really, let's see some video evidence of this happening in the current version of the game at a smaller scale.
Also, to the OP, your in-game resume is irrelevant. If you want this behavior fixed, recreate it under controlled conditions so it can be diagnosed. I'm not posting here to annoy you. I'm posting because I like bug hunting.
We probably did not see the same videos, the videos posted on this thread all have teleporting. Raiders moving at speeds higher than their in-game movement speed says they can. The defenders did not end up surronded in all of them but that does not mean the problem (that made it possible) is not there. Then we also saw the game pushing ppl and animals aside without knowking them out rendering melee blocking useless. In the video that I posted just a couple of posts above it clearly shows raider teleporting and pushing my ppl aside to gain an unfair advantage (in a minimalist environment and no mods). Here is that video again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEW1LLg0fys
Quote from: Mr_Fission on August 21, 2020, 06:29:23 PM
Again, the supplied video is an extreme edge case where you have hundreds of enemies crammed into a tight maze. Subsequent testing videos in this thread with smaller numbers of enemies don't display the behavior. My own testing didn't display this behavior until I cranked it up to hundreds of enemies in a tight maze. Anecdotal accounts of this happening on a smaller scale are nice and all, but really, let's see some video evidence of this happening in the current version of the game at a smaller scale.
IIRC it goes like this... If the room/area doesn't have a free tile for each pawn to stand in then they'll decompress when they engage in combat. Imagine a 3x3 box with 12 scythers clumping up inside it, or passing through it. You manage to get colonists to fight them there. They will teleport in situations like that every time.
Okay I missed the video with the humans, my apologies.
What I see in that video is the same decompression I described above, and which Jibbles pointed to again in his most recent post. From my perspective, the decompression itself isn't the problem. That behavior is a fundamental behavior in Rimworld, and you can see it in other parts of the game, like with stripping corpses in a small room like I described before, where the stripped clothing explodes outwards in a circle, appearing on the other side of solid walls.
The problem isn't that behavior. It's the fact that it can also push your pawns into other squares. If that one variable were changed, and your pawns were never allowed to be relocated due to enemy decompression, the "teleportation" behavior would go away. Going back to your video, if player pawns were prevented from being forcibly moved, the decompression would first search for empty squares, and finding none, prefer squares filled with enemies. And I think it's very reasonable to expect combat-engaged enemies be moved instead of combat-engaged player pawns.
That being said, this change wouldn't have any affect on friendly pawns (including animals) that are not in combat. This means that the out-of-combat animals on display in your first video would still be relocated. From my perspective, that's reasonable too. Because out-of-combat creatures, both player and enemy, can stack infinitely until they enter combat. Changing this fundamental behavior would change units from behaving like Rimworld units to like Starcraft units, where they are essentially solid, even while out of combat. A big change like that is unlikely.
If you really care about changing this behavior, don't make an angry post in the General forum. Make a respectful post in the Bugs forum, show only your raider video, and politely request that the behavior shown at 1:53 in that video be changed, so that player pawns can't be forcibly relocated by enemies.
Don't anyone think one dude who holds 300 scythers packed in tight corridor could actually fail to do it?
From the story perspective it's all fine. In my opinion it's even more fair, than the situation when he could actually hold back literally anything.
This still isn't fixed by the way and we are in 1.2
Here's a 3 year old thread with the same problem reported: https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=30536.0
Tynan is a hack.