With the implementation of multiple ammo types, it would be possible to provide players with greater variation in terms of combat without having to add new weapons to the game.
You could, for example, make it possible to research different types of ammunition via the research table. Then, by right clicking on an unequipped weapon (One that colonists are allowed to interact with), you would be able to select from a drop-down list of various ammo types. Variants you haven't researched yet would still be visible in this list, but would be greyed-out. Each ammo type would have a different effect. For example, selecting "Tracer rounds" on a weapon and then having a colonist equip this weapon would mean that the colonist firing this weapon does not suffer a loss of accuracy when shooting at night/in unlit areas. Amour piercing rounds would increase the damage of successful hits on targets wearing power armour or armour vests, and would also increase the damage inflicted on fully mechanical targets. "Hollow point" ammunition would increase the damage inflicted on un-armoured targets (Targets that are not wearing armoured vests or powered armour), but would suffer from decreased damage when used against armoured targets/mechanoids.
The list of possible types is virtually endless.
So, any thoughts on this in terms of the effect on gameplay and in terms of practicality (how easy it would be to implement?)
I, for one, think it's an interesting idea.
My only caveat with this idea would be that the ammo types aren't flat increases but carry negatives as well. It should be a pro/con thing not just a simple upgrade that there isn't any reason not to take. For example your Tracer idea, tracers work both ways. Ie. The enemy can now see where your shooting from, so a Colonist using tracer rounds doesn't suffer accuracy loss at night, but neither do any opponents shooting at him. This makes using them a tactical decision that carries weight and consequences, instead of just "Oh a raid came at night...time to equip tracers on all my guns." Which would get boring very quickly and become just a tedious hoop to jump through that you wish the game would automate for you. (Someone would be making a thread on here very shortly about how "My Colonists should just use tracers at night, why do I have to make them?) Your Hollow point idea is a great example of the kind of "double edged sword" I'm talking about.
Quote from: LordBloodpool on August 31, 2014, 08:04:42 AM
"Hollow point" ammunition would increase the damage inflicted on un-armoured targets (Targets that are not wearing armoured vests or powered armour), but would suffer from decreased damage when used against armoured targets/mechanoids.
I do really like the idea though, one question: Would special ammo be "infinite" once researched or would you have to stockpile it? Would we have to stockpile normal ammo as well?
Quote from: HatesYourFace on August 31, 2014, 08:15:36 AM
It should be a pro/con thing not just a simple upgrade that there isn't any reason not to take. For example your Tracer idea, tracers work both ways. Ie. The enemy can now see where your shooting from, so a Colonist using tracer rounds doesn't suffer accuracy loss at night, but neither do any opponents shooting at him.
Obviously, the system would indeed require some balancing; my examples were never meant to be a perfect represenation of the "finsished product". They were simply intended to give... Well, a basic example of how it would work, more or less.
Quote from: HatesYourFace on August 31, 2014, 08:15:36 AM
"Oh a raid came at night...time to equip tracers on all my guns."
Again, a valid point. Again, with proper balancing, this sort of thing would be avoided. If my suggestion was to be implemented in the game, I'd want to make sure that you had a mix of ammo types (Say, Tracers for the guy with the power armour and the LMG, Armour piercing for the guy with the sniper rifle, hollow points for the guy with the Uzi, ect).
Quote from: HatesYourFace on August 31, 2014, 08:15:36 AM
I do really like the idea though, one question: Would special ammo be "infinite" once researched or would you have to stockpile it? Would we have to stockpile normal ammo as well?
Seeing as we don't have limited ammo at the moment in the default game, I'd say that special ammo would also be infinite, in the same way "default" ammo is now.
Maybe you'd like to help me create a more balanced proposal? Then we could come up with a more complete list of the proposed ammo types, their strengths and weaknesses, ect.
I guess what I'm mainly saying is that there should be a reason to still use the default ammo. If all your colonists end up with special ammo types its just a vertical progression thing and not a strategic choice.
I know Tynan likes efficient simple ideas so the focus should probably be a few key ammo types with simple effects like Hollow Points, AP, Tracers, and possibly Explosive.
Hollow Points: +DMG to soft targets, -DMG to hard targets/structures.
Armor Piercing: +DMG to hard targets/structures, -DMG to soft targets.
Tracer Rounds: Negates aim penalty at night time for the colonist and anyone shooting at him.
Explosive Rounds: Adds small Aoe Dmg radius to shots, increases time between shots.
I'd very much like an ammo type for pistols and shotguns that is made to stun, like bean bags and so on, easing the capture of crazed own folks.
Quote from: ChrisW on September 01, 2014, 12:35:22 PM
I'd very much like an ammo type for pistols and shotguns that is made to stun, like bean bags and so on, easing the capture of crazed own folks.
That's a pretty good idea actually, would also allow you to make an impromptu police force to incapacitate and arrest your own wily colonists. Tear gas grenades as well? Lol. I like where this is going.
Actually, why not. Smokes and Flashs, too, while we're at it.
Could be extremely helpful to make a retreat happen without being gunned down halfway.
I suppose we could make this proposal a new ammo type/more grenades thing? Flash and Smoke would be awesome, I'd like to see grenades become possible to equip along with a pistol so the colonist could defend himself somewhat. Pistol only takes one hand so I don't see the problem, would also keep pistols relevant past early game for your 'nade users.
Lead bullets ftw.
(http://www.nps.gov/redw/naturescience/images/lead_bullet-diagram_415px.jpg)
Quote from: Ghandhi on September 01, 2014, 01:12:10 PM
Lead bullets ftw.
(http://www.nps.gov/redw/naturescience/images/lead_bullet-diagram_415px.jpg)
Damage over time after being shot? Hmm, but what's the downside?
-It usually can't penetrate armor.
-It causes extremely high blood loss and it is much harder to operate.
-High damage to non armored enemies
-It might make animal meat unable to be eaten unless all parts of bullets will be operated
In RimWorld it damage could calculated like this:
Armor_Percent * (100% + Lead_In_Bullet)
53% * (100% + 75%) = 92.75% (damage lowered)
4% * (100% + 75%) = 7.0% (damage lowered)
Edit:It is ultimate weapon for fighting non armored enemies.
(http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/Images/xray-gmx-270-tsx-corelock-trimmed-labeled.jpg)
Edit2:After some reading I found this:
QuoteNerve Damage
Once lead bullet fragments are taken into the digestive system, the lead is dissolved by the very acidic conditions found in bird and mammal stomachs. This dissolved lead is absorbed into the bloodstream and then into the tissues and bones. Once present, the lead destroys the myelin sheath that insulated the nerve fiber bundles. This disruption causes a number of problems, including tremors, convulsions, lack of coordination, paralysis of the digestive system, and eventually either kills the animal outright or makes it too weak to avoid predators.
Source: http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/
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I actually like this. Really brilliant for fighting those pesky tribesmen.
Quote from: Ghandhi on September 01, 2014, 02:02:22 PM
Edit2:
After some reading I found this:
QuoteNerve Damage
Once lead bullet fragments are taken into the digestive system, the lead is dissolved by the very acidic conditions found in bird and mammal stomachs. This dissolved lead is absorbed into the bloodstream and then into the tissues and bones. Once present, the lead destroys the myelin sheath that insulated the nerve fiber bundles. This disruption causes a number of problems, including tremors, convulsions, lack of coordination, paralysis of the digestive system, and eventually either kills the animal outright or makes it too weak to avoid predators.
Source: http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/
[/color]
So, in in-game terms, maybe it'd also slowly reduce movement/firing speed as well as causing damage over time?
I don't want to offend anyone, but I find it quite interesting that the person who talks about lead bullets, ballistic gelatin, and nerve damage has the handle Ghandhi.
Must be the one from the first Civilization game.
Over complication for no reason.
More != better.
It may be fun to have 20 damage types and 40 ammo types for each weapon (and 200 weapons total with 20*40*200 combinations that have same sprite by a bit different name), but, for what reason?
answer is - there is no reason for such over complication.
game should feature only minimal required set of data without any entity covering other completely or in most part.
In other words - there is no reason to create objects that serve exactly same role.
Currently there are bite, slash,blunt,piercing and one more damage type that IRL exactly same and covered by term "stab" and "blunt".
All projectile wounds covered by "gunshot" and "shrapnel".
All energy related wounds are "burns".
Nature of hollow point and armor piercing rounds is difference in projectile "volume" and nothing more.
Hollow point projectiles extend it's volume when hit something, armor piercing stay in one piece or in case of sabot - decrease it's volume to tungsten core right after impact.
How this related to armor?
Very simple, when projectile hit something armored, armor value is multiplied by volume of projectile.
If projectile have volume of 3 and hit something with armor 30% - 90% of impact force will be adsorbed. (this will work a bit better with flat damage resistance)
There is no reason to feature different ammo, since all effects can be implemented as projectile volume.
Bites stabs melee and so on also can be implemented by "projectile" volume only.
StorymasterQ it was Mahamata Gandhi not Ghandhi :)
RawCode you are treating game like it SHOULD be minimalistic. Games aren't strict things. I think RimWorld should have some aspects that player can, but is not needed to use. One of these are mags. Like this: 1 player will create ordinary mags and he won't need to think about other ones, but the 2nd player will invest some his time into making better ammo and countering enemy forces. Let's say each colonist will have weapon and a magazine list with the limit. Lead bullets can be simplified to the shrapnel and burn effect like you said. The shrapnel effects occurs when the bullets hit the body, the burn effect can become worse if it won't be operated for a longer period of time.
Quote from: Ghandhi on September 03, 2014, 08:01:22 PM
StorymasterQ it was Mahamata Gandhi not Ghandhi :)
Oh, sorry, I thought it was another Mahatma (http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/2011/08/this-is-mahatma-kane-jeeves.html). :D
Quote from: Ghandhi on September 03, 2014, 08:01:22 PM
RawCode you are treating game like it SHOULD be minimalistic. Games aren't strict things. I think RimWorld should have some aspects that player can, but is not needed to use. One of these are mags. Like this: 1 player will create ordinary mags and he won't need to think about other ones, but the 2nd player will invest some his time into making better ammo and countering enemy forces. Let's say each colonist will have weapon and a magazine list with the limit. Lead bullets can be simplified to the shrapnel and burn effect like you said. The shrapnel effects occurs when the bullets hit the body, the burn effect can become worse if it won't be operated for a longer period of time.
Personally, I also think the game ought to be minimalistic. Or at least not be too, too realistic. Having so many things to do just so that you can shoot at things is taking time away from doing other things like growing crops. Tynan wanted the game to focus on only a few colonists so that emergent stories can arise. Dwarf Fortress has many many many dwarves each doing their own thing to support another. In that game, that works. But in Rimworld, I'm not so sure. It's not like we get a wave of immigrants every so often.
While I'm a fan of detail usually, I would be fine with keeping this simple.
Could just have differrent guns do differrent stuff. Shotgun A would fire shrapnel (shorter range, targeting bonus), Shotgun B would fire slugs (longer range, no aim bonus). Shotgun C could be researched or found or whatever and would fire bean bags (short range and no aim bonus). Same for other stun types, why not just make a taser kind pistol, or other very short range stun type club weapons? Doesn't have to be magazine types. Why not just be like "oh, Enfield ammo works better against soft targets, while M-24 ammo is thought for armored stuff and pierces rather than destroys tissue?" Could be that simple.
i have to admit that i disagree with this suggestion too, admittedly i thought about suggesting ammo as a resource and MAYBE some kinds of ammo but the problem is, that we need guns with unlimited ammo which aiming, colldown and releod time are simulated instead of having actual ammo to worry about. this wouldn't add very much to the game and would actually hinder the gameplay to certain degrees.