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RimWorld => Ideas => Topic started by: Drabus on June 22, 2013, 03:07:35 PM

Title: Research System
Post by: Drabus on June 22, 2013, 03:07:35 PM
Okay, this one is one I'm very excited about, because there are so many possibilities here. I know your current research system is very alpha (hasn't been a big priority for good reason!) but I look forward to the build with a lot more research when it comes!

I feel like there should be always a purpose to grabbing more research, so that there's always a competition with other tasks in your colony to really try to pick and choose how to play it out. Lots of compelling actions means prioritization and fun!

I'll list a few possibilities of research but I know you have a ton more in your head, thought I'd jog a few here!

Multi-level research: This type of research has many, many levels, and they produce a passive bonus to everyone in your colony. Similar to experience but in massive group setting.
-Construction designs/architecture: Increases construction speeds by X% where X is either level, slow exponential, your choice
-Construction durability: Less likely to have damage/busts/etc by X%
-Mining picks: Speed of mining increased by X%
-Prospecting: Mining yields X% more minerals
-UV lamps?: Speed of food growth increased by X%
-Bioengineering: Food growth yields X% more food
-Weapons engineering: Increases range of weapons by X%
-Puncturing bullets: Increases damage of weapons by X%
ETC for all types of actions. Limit/limitless?

ALSO: This type of system would really need either a queue system to set what is being researched so you don't have to choose each time, or a % allocation to each type. For example, 20% of your total research goes to Bioengineering, 30% to construction picks, and 50% to big project #1.

Second section of research - Non-leveled/one-time-research bonuses - These would mostly cost a LOT more research time, depending... so that some of them could be very long-term investment for a large bonus.
-New types of X... these could be a lot. Eg
      -New bedding provides better rest?
      -Alternatives to Nutrient Paste Dispenser, other options for food that would take a long time to research but be faster/use less/provide more happiness
      -New kinds of doors that prevent air loss, or built-in airlocks
      -Other "technologies" that you don't need to start with but you can gather over time.
      -Cloning? - Could be a super-long-term one but the ability to have Clone Person as an option
      -Clone Person - Long term research to try to clone someone. Has a % chance to work, if successful, would replicate the person into a full grown colonist with same specializations and levels.
      -Will post more as I think of them!
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Hypolite on September 16, 2013, 02:00:28 AM
From what I undestand about the real-world research :

First is the fundamental research has no predictable goal nor time, but produces raw discoveries once in a while. People assigned to research should be creative.

After that, raw discoveries can be exploited by engineers, who work toward a known goal for a more prodictable time. It produces inventions that have a direct outcome. People assigned to invention should be equally creative and technical.

After that, inventions can be improved to be better in any way possible, again with a known goal and a very predictable time. People assigned to improvement should be technical.


The improvement is the multi-level research you describe : limitless but i would put a sort of cap on it by decreasing the gain for each subsequent level. You can still spend time improving endlessly, but for very limited gains compared to other less advanced fields. It provides both choice and consistence, as it encourages logically to even out the research through all available fields.

The invention is the one-time research you describe. For me it should be based on the knowledge they have access to on the moon. Improved access to knowledge could be gained by restoring a communication link with the rest of the human civilization.

And I would like the fundamental research to be added as a very late-game possibility. We are speaking about stranded colonists on a lonely moon, it's unlikely that they will start looking for deep answers before their basic needs are fulfilled. But I think it should be necessary for the most powerful/bizarre inventions. Fields could range from hard sciences (physics, mathematics, etc...) to psychology with ecology, as I saw plants during my first game.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: koja on September 16, 2013, 03:37:30 AM
Material pre-requisites(In some cases, especially with 1 time research tech) would nice.

E.x.:
Research boomrats for access to some type of explosive or bio improvement, alien tech for XXXX, and so forth. That, or bonuses to X research branch by reverse engineering said item.

Resource costs:
Other more plentiful resources(metal, organic, colonists, whatever) might be interesting as a component or a boost. Provides a sink for excess resources of a specific type.

As plot hook:
Of course, bioengineering might cause its own plot events... as could agricultural research, explosives research, etc... Gives another opportunity for things to get interesting.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Tynan on September 16, 2013, 12:06:42 PM
The general thought with research is that they're not really doing anything original - just figuring out how something works, or how to use a piece of equipment, or how to build something they saw on TV once. The RimWorld universe includes very wide technological spreads between different factions, from tribal to transcendent machine/human godlike entities. So everything has been seen and hard of, mostly - you're just trying to figure out how to do it. This is how one person can, say, invent hydroponics alone in a few days.

Repeatable research is an interesting idea, definitely a possibility. It would simplify some things.

I am really fascinated by the idea of using special materials as research prerequisites. It has a bit of an XCOM vibe. E.g. a trader passes and you buy some transcendent-tech artifact, which, after research, can be used as some kind of super-weapon or power source. Maybe it takes research just to identify items!

Or we spawn the map with some archaeological ruins and you research those. And, of course, the research spawns events (cthulhu arrives, for example). It's like managing the UAC Phobos base in DOOM.

So many possibilities.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Hypolite on September 16, 2013, 05:10:29 PM
I'm currently enjoying everything I read on that topic, and I thought it would be a good thing to tell. :)
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 09:37:31 AM
A basic outline I've considered after seeing the current Alpha stage  of the game to work with is this:

We could split research into 5 branches: Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Humanities and Special Projects.

Physics would encompass things like energy production, new technology, weaponry, construction time, etc.

Chemistry can influence drugs, new/stronger materials (better mining picks), mutations, various fuels (rocket) and environmental studies (such as water purification).

Biology can influence agriculture, husbandry, disease, biotech and healing.

Humanities can cover things to help your society like psychological research, education (maybe a project that helps colonists learn skills 5% faster?), pleasurable things to keep colonists happy essentially.

Then of course you have your special projects that would mostly require an event to begin such as finding an ancient civilization's ruins, deadly parasite, solar wind, end-game ship construction (if you like end-game, personally I like expanding/building with no limits), etc.

As a rough framework to build upon I think it tends to cover all bases, though I'm sure I've missed some things. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Spike on October 06, 2013, 10:06:56 AM
I like the idea of organizing research into areas.  However, I think there should be a difference between... figuring out how to do known stuff, and theoretical research.  For example: I bet a lot of us "know", just from fiction, how a nuclear fission reaction works - but in order to actually make a working nuclear reactor or bomb, we would have to research it. 

So the crash survivors would only be able to build things they personally know how to make, or that they are provided blueprints for at the start; anything else, they would have to do the equivalent to browsing the web for a DIY tutorial.  And then there would be theoretical research, for figuring out how to do new things, or to study discovered artifacts.  Which leads to the idea of anyone being able to do the DIY research, but you need a Scientist to do theoretical research.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 10:11:12 AM
An important point, though I think Tynan has already expressed that surviving colonists who've just crash-landed on a Rimworld won't be looking to understand the big answers in the universe and won't be doing ANY research other people haven't already done (DIY).

However the ancient civilization factor does change that a bit, along with other mystery-oriented events that could spawn Special Projects, therefore I fully support the notion that you need a proper Scientist (above 9/10 in research perhaps? Or ex-navy scientist?) to start any of the Special Projects.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: British on October 06, 2013, 10:42:54 AM
Something that would be nice to have in research is simply more things to build/create, instead of being mostly only about enhancing other things that already exist.
But maybe that's just a concept that has to be labelled as "Production", for instance.
It would have some sort of tree with pre-requisites (X-Com comes to mind indeed).
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Gargrant on October 06, 2013, 12:09:56 PM
I agree with the general theme of the group that there could be 2 classes of research:

I just wanted to point out that what is "DIY" and what is "Theoretical" depends on the overall tenor and capabilities of the colony's staff.  We've all heard the trope that "Magic is science sufficiently advanced".  A colony of 2 low-tech knights and 1 mid-world bureaucrat is going to find a lot of concepts ... magical.

Because most people involved with the colony are simply users of the technology - they don't need to understand how it works to be able to take advantage of it - I hesitate to suggest that options should be available based on some sort of aggregated statistics of the colony - instead it should be based on the most sophisticated minds available, and those minds need to spend their time working at it.

However, the only difference I think there should necessarily be between DIY and Theoretical Research in gameplay terms is that:

Again, what is theoretical and what is DIY depends on the sophistication of the people doing the research.  Because scientific inquiry is a skill and because RimWorld technology research is really about exposure to tech, I do believe that colonists who engage in theoretical research should be improve their research trait over time (possibly affected by other personality quirks - a "hidebound" researcher isn't going to get a lot better).

This approach heightens the tactical value of a scientist, but also allows a colony without such a resource to boot-strap itself back into technological prowess.  Particularly potent scientists may even attract threats to the colony. 
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Spike on October 06, 2013, 12:58:31 PM
A modern lifeboat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lifeboat_%28shipboard%29) could be equipped with a mixed batch of supplies (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100225085316AAdD2uJ).  So what would a Rimworld universe Crash Pod be equipped with?  In my opinion, it would carry similar things that would be used for survivors: Food, water, basic First Aid supplies, signalling equipment, emergency shelter, emergency (short term) power supply, and most importantly an e-book gizmo with a large portion of human knowledge - a Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, the complete  Encyclopaedia Britannica, and read-only copy of the Internet (wikipedia, youtube, tutorials) all rolled into one.  At least that's my opinion, for whatever it's worth. :)

So a crash pod would have the equivalent of tent, bedroll, camp stove, mess kits, small-scale solar cells & batteries, and the basic tools & info to improve your situation until help arrives.  Heck, pick a subject and search the internet - want to know how to make a yurt, kimchi or do basic first aid?  You can find tutorials and recipes for all of that right now, if you want to.  If you want to learn how to build a steam engine, you can do that too - but you might have to study up on some other subjects first, in order to build it.  That's my basic idea for DIY stuff - it's in the Involuntary Colonist's Crash Pod Handbook, you just have to "research" it to learn how to actually make it.  But if you're a "medieval oaf", you don't even know how to read, so you can't do that.  And then if alien ruins or unknown technology is added to the game, you would need a scientist to actually do Theoretical Research to understand it - or to design things that aren't in the Handbook.

And as I mentioned in another thread, about the whole "hitch a ride with a trader" concept of why to even stay on the planet...  Trade goods that you buy are dropped into your Landing Area in pods - the trader does not land.  So that's incoming goods... how do your goods get to the trader?  If you can launch things into space, why not yourself to hitch a ride?  Perhaps your Crash Pods have gizmo's that are easily assembled when building a Landing Area that make a one-way Matter Transmission device, that will not work on living beings.  So you can send food and manufactured goods up to the ship, but not people.  (Which would not work out if you can also sell slaves.)  And for that matter, the trade ship might even be automated, with no living crew to negotiate transport.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Zeiph on October 06, 2013, 01:22:22 PM
What as been said is generally interesting, but as DIY science is reproducing what as already been discovered, I'm more wondering about DIY industry like producing solar panels out of raw material...
Still I think that DIY science should be mostly about:
- giving you more construction options like new ways to generate energy or producing food
- improving what you already have (or giving you the option to do so, like some kind of an upgrade system), for exemple adding fertilizer to the crops, improving the solar output of your panels by adding focus reflectors
- developping passive boons like improving mining methods and so on

The "conversion" of captured refugee and trading with space vessels could also use a part of research like improving the knowledge of a specific culture in order to gain the trust of specifical people a bit quicker or to negociate tighter prices.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 01:33:24 PM
Quote from: Gargrant on October 06, 2013, 12:09:56 PM
I agree with the general theme of the group that there could be 2 classes of research:

  • DIY - Attempting to build something known to exist, with principles understood, but with materials/supplies available on the planet
  • Theoretical - Attempting to expand the knowledge available to the "known world"

Once again pointing out that crash-landed colonists with scraps won't be performing theoretical research except for one-offs like new archaeology/materials/fauna on their planet.

Everything you can research; barring a small few things, will be DIY-esque and not the future of fusion technology.
With the basic gist of how things work after having lived with and used them for most of their lives, I could sufficiently engineer a basic toaster, it's the same principle with geothermal generators in this fictional future we're set in.
While I understand medieval-world concerns, it can't be that in-detail or this'll get too complex fast and it's actually impossible for a medieval serf to research, while the Lords have to have have a non-medieval background or be a former serf (rare/unrealistic - on that topic in the alpha a male can have the pregnant trait lol).


Quoted from Gargrant: "The amount of time required to successfully research theoretical topics cannot be known in advance."  - Love this idea though not sure how it could be implemented as in the current version research progress is displayed in a bar format that reaches completion.

Perhaps to add some semblance of realism to this Theoretical-DIY debate without over-complicating it, we could simply add a system that means along with the random seed that generates what research you have access to learning upon crashing, the topics available are also dependent on numerical Researcher-Skill value or the highest-tech background?

Researching shouldn't really distinguish between what you can build, improve, add to, etc I think. I mean it'll be there, but I'm not sure separating the topics on such a generic basis is worth it. Then again more easy to navigate UI-wise for beginners perhaps?

Quoted from Zeiph: "improving what you already have (or giving you the option to do so, like some kind of an upgrade system), for example adding fertilizer to the crops, improving the solar output of your panels by adding focus reflectors". Why research an upgrade that you aren't going to immediately implement? I think that sort of system would be adding unnecessary work for Tynan at this point, the passive boons are also classed under improvement then surely?

Once again I enjoy the idea of successfully "converting" captured raiders and crashlanders giving a sum-bonus to a current Humanities/Social research topic, on top of the fact a warden converting someone increases their Social Skill anyway.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Zeiph on October 06, 2013, 01:41:22 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 01:33:24 PM
Quoted from Zeiph: "improving what you already have (or giving you the option to do so, like some kind of an upgrade system), for example adding fertilizer to the crops, improving the solar output of your panels by adding focus reflectors". Why research an upgrade that you aren't going to immediately implement? I think that sort of system would be adding unnecessary work for Tynan at this point, the passive boons are also classed under improvement then surely?

I agree with this but in reality those kind of upgrade would consume time and material to implement, thus it would not be instant, at least for already existing system. The time consumption is more obvious (and adding a layer of strategy: the boon vs other action and some critical material) if you consider that the activity schedule of the colonists may be already tight with hunting or bandit invasion. But I also agree that it would be one more bother in the game production optique.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 02:35:23 PM
Quote from: Zeiph on October 06, 2013, 01:41:22 PM
I agree with this but in reality those kind of upgrade would consume time and material to implement, thus it would not be instant, at least for already existing system. The time consumption is more obvious (and adding a layer of strategy: the boon vs other action and some critical material) if you consider that the activity schedule of the colonists may be already tight with hunting or bandit invasion. But I also agree that it would be one more bother in the game production optique.

I admit I had failed to consider the strategic implications an upgrade to be applied on an individual basis for resource cost would have with your suggestion. I find myself wanting such a system now... curses lol.
At the moment my mind is focused on analysing the alpha footage I've scoured for and the research system presented atm is a click-wait-implemented style. Possibly certain research could require resource-costs? It would certainly fit the story of RimWorld as survivors are going to make mistakes replicating technology without a manual and waste material anyway, let alone the material then used to upgrade every piece of tech.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: walti921 on October 06, 2013, 03:02:36 PM
I think that most research should be practical... these guys have just crash landed and are struggling to survive they ain't going to be to worried about the broad implications of string theory.

They will want to be able to blow things up, build better shelters and defenses, produce and store enough energy to keep them out of the stone age, deal with medical issues that are bound to arise and other basic priorities for survival. I think the research system needs to reflect that.

however i do think for those that want to build a very science orientated colony some more esoteric, less day to day research with unpredictable rewards/consequences would be great. I love the idea of needing items for certain research and it makes sense empirically too, after all if you want to learn how to make an alien doom laser what better way to learn than to pick one apart and reverse engineer it.

Another thing that would be cool would be a science based trader, like a research vessel that could sell you blueprints for certain special technology or to speed up other research and maybe sell some of the advanced/weird items needed or created at higher science tiers. 
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:11:32 PM
Quote from: walti921 on October 06, 2013, 03:02:36 PM
Another thing that would be cool would be a science based trader, like a research vessel that could sell you blueprints for certain special technology or to speed up other research and maybe sell some of the advanced/weird items needed or created at higher science tiers.

Liking the idea. So far as I've seen in the Alpha we have farming vessels, weaponry vessels, slavers and a mixture of the three. It would be nice to have a scientific-vessel though, atm the Alpha's research system is very early and manufacturing is almost non-existent this would have to be added after the rehaul of the research tree. We've already got a fairly established suggestion of the RimWorlds sometimes having ruins from an advanced alien civilization on them that would spawn otherwise unreachable research projects. Still another way to add in unique research to be bought is via allying with various factions that may or may not be future content. *shrug*
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:15:44 PM
Quick thought for late game, what are people's opinions on eventually mastering Terraforming?
It's high-tech, semi-theoretical (in this fictional future it's been done before) and yet is STILL something a shipwrecked colonist trying to survive would invest in.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Gargrant on October 06, 2013, 03:21:12 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 01:33:24 PM
Once again pointing out that crash-landed colonists with scraps won't be performing theoretical research except for one-offs like new archaeology/materials/fauna on their planet.

I know I started with that distinction, but my point was that what is DIY to 1 person is probably 'theoretical' to another.  RimWorld includes, by design, people from a very wide set of cultures and technological backgrounds.  A knight is going to find an automobile incredibly impressive, and even with a schematic won't even have the first clue how to get started.  Someone that has seen hex wrenches, wire strippers, and pipe fitters before is going to proceed much more rapidly.

And the only important game-play difference I suggested  between the two classes is that the colonists don't know how long theoretical research is going to take.  They can still undertake it.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:37:08 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 01:33:24 PM
Perhaps to add some semblance of realism to this Theoretical-DIY debate without over-complicating it, we could simply add a system that means along with the random seed that generates what research you have access to learning upon crashing, the topics available are also dependent on numerical Researcher-Skill value or the highest-tech background?

I tried to address issues with that point here: ^^
If you only have a team of medieval-background colonists then at first they'll only be able to access technology from their understanding.

Though on the Manufacturing system thread we've already got a debate under way as to the pros of everyone starting off at the lowest tech level and building their way up, thus excusing most of the issues with understanding as even a serf (who can't research anyway) after enough time researching would understand the mechanics of a car.

Not to mention that throughout the game new colonists drop in on you or are converted from raiders/slaves all the time and odds are one of them will be from a world advanced enough to understand these DIY projects on a conceptual level.
Though it does raise the amusing point of why three unsupervised serfs were on a high-tech spaceship in the Outer Rim in the 1st place? Hmmm... starting to build a picture of why they may have crashed.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Pheanox on October 06, 2013, 03:42:58 PM
I definitely like many of the points brought up in this topic.  The idea of most research being DIY-style research where the time is spent looking up a read only Wikipedia on how things work makes a lot of sense.  It makes it reasonable as to why they know what to research. 

The idea of iterative research is very good as well, and always gives your researcher something to do.  Having to make that conscious choice to have them not be productive with other colony matters with something to research makes choices more interesting, and promotes a risk/reward sort of gameplay.

Theoretical research is definitely something that would be cool though!  I don't know if it should be only limited to someone that was a scientist, though they should definitely have the highest boost to it, and have the most favorable outcomes.  Theoretical research, however, is generally not done unguided.  There is an end goal.  So if theoretical research is added, with random research rewarded, it should be divided in to categories.  The previously mentioned ones work great.  Biology, Physics, Chemistry, and Humanities.  This could result in something minor or major, and be dependent on the science level the researcher.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Gargrant on October 06, 2013, 03:48:25 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:37:08 PM
Not to mention that throughout the game new colonists drop in on you or are converted from raiders/slaves all the time and odds are one of them will be from a world advanced enough to understand these DIY projects on a conceptual level.
I think that's a valuable possible story possibility.  Your band of untutored serfs manage to capture a lone and hapless 'pirate'.  (Perhaps they even invented, for their own personal comfort, the pirate part).  The captured pirate is the only one that understands all this crazy tech around them.  The pirate transitions from being their captured prisoner to one of the leaders of the colony.

I think it also raises the possibility that colonies 'blessed' with high science characters may be aggressively head-hunted by other tribes, with more or less forceful means of coercion.

Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:37:08 PM
Though it does raise the amusing point of why three unsupervised serfs were on a high-tech spaceship in the Outer Rim in the 1st place? Hmmm... starting to build a picture of why they may have crashed.

Yes, it is one fun possibility.  ;)  Another possibility is that space-pirates boarded their vessel and cut off air to all the passenger decks in the attack - our small band of colonists, being menials, had been stored in stowage, and thus managed to escape.

The story possibilities are endless.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Spike on October 06, 2013, 03:57:11 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:37:08 PM
If you only have a team of medieval-background colonists then at first they'll only be able to access technology from their understanding.

Perhaps another area of research (or manufacturing, or some kind of "colony advancement") could be Education?   Actually, if we'd look at the idea of research topics of Biology, Physics, Chemistry, and Humanities, then that would be part of Humanities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanities).  Perhaps that could even be used (player choice) to change the colonists long-term goals from Escape to Colonizing - instead of getting off planet, they are woo'd to the idea of this being the new home, and lets improve it as much as possible.

Although... some sci-fi books (Earthweb (http://www.baenebooks.com/p-833-earthweb.aspx)) had a premise of durable e-book/computers being dropped all over the world, that would basically teach an illiterate Third World individual from the ground up - reading, programming, etc.  Kind of like that, eh, self-teaching pc that was proposed a couple of years ago.  So the idea of colonists in-game working up their tech-level isn't too far out there.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: British on October 06, 2013, 05:24:14 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:11:32 PM
We've already got a fairly established suggestion of the RimWorlds sometimes having ruins from an advanced alien civilization on them that would spawn otherwise unreachable research projects.
Just like having an end-game, I personally don't mind this idea, as long as it's optional (a specific "Alien-related" AI, perhaps ?).
I do like the prospect of having our survivors managing their colony without excessive "outside" help, slowly climbing the tree of knowledge, and not bypassing steps.
And the next game, I'll enjoy digging for forgotten-alien stuff ;D
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: walti921 on October 06, 2013, 05:30:25 PM
I think alien ruins and stuff should be default personally after all with this  type of game the variety of stories and not knowing whats going to happen next are a large part of the appeal.

I think your AI storyteller choice will inform the pacing/difficulty anyways so if your playing Cassandra classic its unlikely you will find some ancient alien ruin teeming with xenomorphs from the get go, or get some ridiculously overpowered weapon/tech without significant work being done to acquire it.

Maybe Tynan could put in another story teller for people who still want a challenge but want a relatively "normal" or predictable experience, Victor vanilla, Barry boring? Or wait for it..... Larry Low-tech.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 05:38:37 PM
Quote from: British on October 06, 2013, 05:24:14 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 03:11:32 PM
We've already got a fairly established suggestion of the RimWorlds sometimes having ruins from an advanced alien civilization on them that would spawn otherwise unreachable research projects.
Just like having an end-game, I personally don't mind this idea, as long as it's optional (a specific "Alien-related" AI, perhaps ?).
I do like the prospect of having our survivors managing their colony without excessive "outside" help, slowly climbing the tree of knowledge, and not bypassing steps.
And the next game, I'll enjoy digging for forgotten-alien stuff ;D

Ah that's a misunderstanding. I didn't mean the alien ruins gave you advanced technology or even access to advanced technology options in research. I meant they give you a lump-sum bonus to a certain research project you're already on, or you can research the ruins as a SUPER-Project for a nice piece of technology only your colony in all the galaxy will have.
You'll still need to reach a level of understanding necessary to interpret and reverse-engineer this ancient race's science before you can use/complete the research project.

Lol sorry I already bagsed Barry for Brutal Barry!  :'(

Back to seriousness:
Back to the thread topic now, I've been rewatching Quill's video of RimWorld pre-alpha and he mentions the notion of Research-Queuing. Yay or nay?
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: British on October 06, 2013, 05:51:01 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 05:38:37 PM
I meant they give you a lump-sum bonus to a certain research project you're already on, or you can research the ruins as a SUPER-Project for a nice piece of technology only your colony in all the galaxy will have.
I still put that under the "external help" label ::)
And just because there's no alien-related events doesn't mean it has to be boring either.
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 05:56:56 PM
Quote from: British on October 06, 2013, 05:51:01 PM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 06, 2013, 05:38:37 PM
I meant they give you a lump-sum bonus to a certain research project you're already on, or you can research the ruins as a SUPER-Project for a nice piece of technology only your colony in all the galaxy will have.
I still put that under the "external help" label ::)
And just because there's no alien-related events doesn't mean it has to be boring either.

Alright, point. When put back to me like that I have no choice but to concede.

And I like the normal game run-through too! Building up from nothing on the sweat of your sprite's forehead and the strength of their 2D back that you never see at the same time as their front. Memories...

But in the second play I want to find something weird that surprises me after I thought I knew everything from my perfectionist 1st run ;).
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: SpaceEatingTrex on October 14, 2013, 07:52:39 PM
Quote from: Tynan on September 16, 2013, 12:06:42 PMRepeatable research is an interesting idea, definitely a possibility. It would simplify some things.

Watching a RimWorld stream today research came up and the general consensus seemed to be that research goes by too fast, and after everything is researched there's no use for the research skill. It seems like these issues could be addressed by having research more paced and repeatable research respectively.

Furthermore, the idea of separate tech trees for each topic came up. I think simple tech trees could add some depth to the research system, without making it too complicated. Combined with repeatable research I think that would make for a good research system.

Here's an MSPaint mockup:

(http://i.imgur.com/ZhDktpN.png)

A number of good ideas have already been mentioned in this thread, but I'd be wary of making research too complicated. What ideas could add depth to the research system without over-complicating it?
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: Hawkido on October 16, 2013, 12:24:02 PM
Quote from: Hypolite on September 16, 2013, 02:00:28 AM
From what I undestand about the real-world research :

First is the fundamental research has no predictable goal nor time, but produces raw discoveries once in a while. People assigned to research should be creative.

After that, raw discoveries can be exploited by engineers, who work toward a known goal for a more prodictable time. It produces inventions that have a direct outcome. People assigned to invention should be equally creative and technical.

Yes I like the "Pure Research"/ "Applied Research" model... I have seen it in a few games and loved the random element.  The research should also be slowed down.  I posted an idea about off screen expeditions returning with happiness trinkets or horrors that could also happen on them... perhaps trinkets for research ideas could be among them.
http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=38.msg3853#msg3853
Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: starlight on October 17, 2013, 08:48:52 AM
Quote from: walti921 on October 06, 2013, 03:02:36 PM
I think that most research should be practical... these guys have just crash landed and are struggling to survive they ain't going to be to worried about the broad implications of string theory.

They will want to be able to blow things up, build better shelters and defenses, produce and store enough energy to keep them out of the stone age, deal with medical issues that are bound to arise and other basic priorities for survival. I think the research system needs to reflect that.

however i do think for those that want to build a very science orientated colony some more esoteric, less day to day research with unpredictable rewards/consequences would be great. I love the idea of needing items for certain research and it makes sense empirically too, after all if you want to learn how to make an alien doom laser what better way to learn than to pick one apart and reverse engineer it.

Another thing that would be cool would be a science based trader, like a research vessel that could sell you blueprints for certain special technology or to speed up other research and maybe sell some of the advanced/weird items needed or created at higher science tiers.

I like the Pure Research / Applied Research breakdown that some people have proposed.

Applied will focus on getting things up and running, and will be much faster.

Pure research will be longer - but more fruitful. You can't set up a coal plant till you have researched a few things. Till then you might need to get by on windmills.
And if you want nuclear towers.....

The point is that Applied Research will need certain Pure Research Tech as pre-requisities.
Check Alpha Centauri tech tree for an example.
They have also done it nicely by breaking it down into four areas.

Further, research should not be very fast.
Title: Re: Research System
Post by: AdamBlackbird on October 21, 2013, 11:53:41 AM
I've already advocated for starting low-tech and working your way up over in the manufacturing thread.

I like the idea of the DIY/theoretical distinction for research, especially given the idea of the drop-pod including an e-book with the future's equivalent of wikipedia on it to explain how most of the tech projects are done. I like the idea of theoretical projects not having set (or at least known) times, as well as mysterious outcomes.

I like the idea of DIY research unlocking new areas bit by bit. A tree, so to speak, of the different building/furniture/item types, so unlocking a collective system might take a fair bit of time, but individual smaller researchers might be a bit faster to keep things at a more interesting pace. For example, while the collective "hydroponics" might include the sun lights, the trays themselves, irrigation systems, a workbench for modifying plants, etc., they could all be put under different DIY projects, which allows you to gain the benefits of some aspects earlier, to apply bit by bit to existing systems, or start building the whole system in advance. One might research irrigation or the workbench first to to improve their existing farms, or start building the irrigation system of the hydroponics lab before it is fully ready, only to push for the actual trays themselves when the need to build inside is genuinely pressing.

Regarding theoretical research projects, I agree with the idea of alien ruins/artifacts and the like being under this category. I would also suggest that if this world is uncharted, studying native flora/fauna/indigenous populations would fit well under the theoretical category, and be something of immediate interest. Research in terms of more abstract and esoteric things that push the boundary of knowledge, however, I still think should be included, but at a lower design/implementation priority. I realize it's not something of immediate interest to most likely survivors, but the possibility of a research colony should still be there for those who want to play it.

On the topic of repeatable/ +x% to y item/building... While they make sense, are obviously useful, and present a good strategic option... They're boring.  I wouldn't recommend them, or perhaps include it in a different way... A version 2.0 of whatever tech, which adds some other feature to it, with a more qualitative vibe. Perhaps allows it to work in a slightly different way. At any rate, the end result of this is it would improve functioning by some small amount, but it wouldn't just be it works x% better. An example might be a larger sun light for hydroponics which is more space-efficient for large hydroponic labs, meaning you might fit in another couple trays if you design it right. I find whenever games include +x% tech I'm compelled to do it because it's then a straightforward matter of if you don't you're losing potential productivity. The sort I'm suggesting, however, feels like more of a genuine choice. It also fits a lot more neatly into the above mentioned setup.

Title: Re: Suggestion & Discussion: Research System
Post by: NephilimNexus on November 06, 2013, 09:27:22 PM
Quote from: Tynan on September 16, 2013, 12:06:42 PMThe general thought with research is that they're not really doing anything original - just figuring out how something works, or how to use a piece of equipment, or how to build something they saw on TV once. The RimWorld universe includes very wide technological spreads between different factions, from tribal to transcendent machine/human godlike entities. So everything has been seen and hard of, mostly - you're just trying to figure out how to do it. This is how one person can, say, invent hydroponics alone in a few days.

In the ancient "Outpost" game they made a point of having two types of research: Pure Science and Applied Science.

Pure Science was raw knowledge, Applied Science came afterward and let you do things with that knowledge.  For example, Physics, Metallurgy and Thermodynamics are Pure Science.  Using that knowledge to make a better oven for baking your bread would be the Applied Science that you would unlock from learning these things.

And of course, everything begins with Mathematics...
Title: Re: Research System
Post by: Clint on November 15, 2013, 08:35:21 PM
I'm greatly in favour of a multi-level research system with an asymptotic limit.

I.e. the major areas of research be listed as seperate catagories:
Mining
Farming
Construction
Social
etc..

And these catagories can be researched indefinitely but each research taking exponentially longer with exponentally falling returns for said research.
This means that even in the late-game you can still progress with researching even if it only gives you 0.01% faster mining every 10 days or something silly...

Interspaced in the main catagories would be sub-catagories which are unlocked when one (or more) of 3 things happen:

1) The correct "level" of research is attained:
e.g. lvl 2 farming unlocks the ability to research Hydroponics for example

2) An artifact is found/bought/captured or something is learned by "interrogating" a prisoner, and this can create a "breakthrough" allowing you to progress with research without the required background level.
e.g. An advanced alien race attacks and you capture a pulse rifle, allowing you to begin researching how to make it, at a much slower rate.

3) Random events:
Random breakthroughs and random technologies that can only be accessed through this method could happen when the AI director sees fit to add them.
These could be "story" elements which allow you access to the next stage of gameplay (whatever that may be)
Or they could just be interesting and useful items that will not break the game eitherway.

Also, I'd like research to have a significant chance at failing as this is often the case IRL, Right now Research is far too fast and it needs to be a much slower and more fluid process.
I.e. your researcher could be trying to research better mining picks, but fails and instead he has a minor breakthrough in materials science which adds a little bit of progress to your "construction" catagory.

Finally, I'd like to have research and manufacture seperated if possible...
The idea being that research is sort of just the raw theory behind something, allowing new ideas to be brought forward and unlocking old ideas that your citizens have seen elsewhere (from other species for example)
But the ability to actually put that into practice would be somewhat limited by your manufacturing technolgy.

I.e.
You capture some alien with the pulse rifle and unlock the research, after a long 10 day research project you finally finish and are able "In theory" to reproduce the weapon, however your manufacturing technology is not capable of producing such an advanced item.
We may understand something in theory but it doesn't mean that we're actually physically capable of producing the object.


That's just my view of a semi-perfect research tree... and I fully understand that it's a very complicated web of interlocked nests in order to get such a system working, but I thought i'd just explain it here anyway.
Title: Re: Research System
Post by: monkhouse on January 31, 2014, 05:49:03 PM
Keeping with the 'work with what you've got' theme, I'd really like to see technologies as things that you acquire as you play the game; you recover the basics from your crash site then get more from passing traders or through random events (and exploring ruins, as has been mentioned). Once you have the tech you can research it then reproduce it and improve it over time.

So tech isn't so much on a linear curve from primitive to advanced - colonies are a mix of whatever technologies were to hand. Colony A has people cranking hand generators to keep their laser turrets online while colony B keeps its joywire autofac running full time to trade for guns and food while they negotiate with snarky merchants for the secret of hydroponics.. you get the idea. You could get a powerful tech early, or go without a basic necessity for ages, completely changing the arc of the story.
Title: Re: Research System
Post by: Vastin on February 01, 2014, 11:49:37 AM
In terms of adding tech levels to the game (like farming 1, farming 2, 3, 4 etc...), while it would be very easy to represent these as 10% improvements, it would add more color and complexity if many of these improvements were actually unlocking new/different crop types, or genetically engineering a crop to be more efficient in a particular way (improved grow time, improved yield per harvest, higher sell price, etc). More work obviously, but there's a lot more depth in the latter approach. You could end up pursuing crops that have are in high demand off-world as a luxury item (spices), but are a lousy food crop, and actually import your food even though you've built an agri-colony.

Which isn't to say that there can't be some completely generic (+10% to all harvest time) type techs as well, just that if that's all there is the system will never get very deep.