Current efforts to fix the story loophole (aka "why don't the colonists just leave with the traders?") are focusing around two options, as far as I can tell:
- it's not feasible because of some complex tech issue (no FTL, small crews, other lame excuses)
- it's not desirable (the colonists are wanted criminals who don't want to leave the planet)
- it's all too hard and just do away with traders
Trading is a valuable gameplay mechanic, so the third option isn't really sensible.
I'd like to propose that the traders not be spacefaring.
They are just on the planet, and travel up to the colony door to trade, and then continue on their merry way. They could have armed guards. You could try to kill them and just take all their loot, but then you'd also never be visited by another trader again.
There is no "loophole", people are just way too optimistic. Its deep space, the ships are serious business, and letting a bunch of most likely unidentifiable people on-board a ship would be a SERIOUS risk.
Its just like hitch hiking, its very unlikely, and especially if you then limit most of the ships to groups (like traders, or other stuff) the chance of letting on complete strangers is a risk almost nobody would take.
Wish people could stop worrying about this thing... its getting annoying hearing it over and over. I don't think there need to be an official "reason" why they can't leave with the traders, instead people should just understand that they CAN'T leave, because theres no reason for the traders to rescue a group of complete ragtag strangers.
Most people would be willing to make room in their cargo space for enough money, which is easy enough to stockpile in the game.
There is also the opportunity to hijack the trade ship. Well, here, have 15 of my colonists as "Slaves". Either come down and get them, or let me send them up in pods.
Oh and by slaves, I meant highly armed boarders.
Well, what it could be is that those tradeships aren't actually crewed - No sense sending people into the deep unknowns of space if you can help it. I mean, that doesn't say a lot about slave traders, but it's a thought.
Quote from: Adeelos on November 12, 2013, 12:50:28 AM
Most people would be willing to make room in their cargo space for enough money, which is easy enough to stockpile in the game.
And how would you know that, you run a deep space trading ship?...keep in mind, this is anywhere between 3 - 12 HEAVILY ARMED strangers, which the ship most likely can't even confirm the identity of. And considering the absolute mess of security risks (the colonists killing the crew off, highjack, contamination from possible diseases(this is an uncharted planet, keep in mind), being tracked by those who have bounties on colonists, ect) The risk could be viewed as nowhere near worth it.
There's no SIGNIFICANT reason why they would just be rescued, this "plot hole" is the same as "well why don't they just talk it out with the rebel fleet" in regards to FTL's ending. Yes, TECHNICALLY it has a point, but its reading far too deep into it. The short answer is, the rebels (or in this case, traders) don't give a damn.
There is no loophole.
I'm all the way with Mumble on this - I was pushing the same vector as well. Trade ships wouldn't be manned with too much crew (with the length of the flight especially) and definitely not with anti-boarding crews. After all if pirates can't take your cargo, they will blow up the ship. Why pay for guards if you loose anyway?
There would be armed convoys out there - but these would not stop on some random-ass moons to talk with strangers.
Think of rimworlds as badlands - you never know who works for who and if he won't slit your throat first chance he gets. Trust for strangers goes only as far as the barrel of the gun can allow it.
Quote from: mumblemumble on November 12, 2013, 12:14:03 AM
There is no "loophole",
Are the people from the crash colonists or survivors? They have the new colony buff at the start, you could say its similar to many colonies in the last 500 years, why when the going got rough why didnt they just leave.
Quote from: Sacarathe on November 12, 2013, 09:36:10 AMAre the people from the crash colonists or survivors? They have the new colony buff at the start, you could say its similar to many colonies in the last 500 years, why when the going got rough why didnt they just leave.
They have crashed. In a crashpod. That's supposed to crash. And it crashed. End even if they de-crash it, it's a crashpod. It won't crash them into space tho. And even if they would build crashtapult, they would simply recrash somewhere else. Like a moon with toxic atmosphere. Or without one. Or sun. Or hull of some tradeship that will then crash into sun. And even if they crash on another M-class planet, it'll be thousands of light years away and they would be dead for hundreds of generations before they recrash.
Considering all that, it ain't that bad to be on M-class planet with resources, some traffic around it and raiders out for your blood. Could've been worse. Like crashing into a tradeship that then crashes into a sun, while they starve to the edge of death before dying of suffocation while watching themselves being slowly crashed into a sun :P
I still feel the colonists shouldn't even want to leave. With all the raiders and slave traders going around. I wouldn't trust any ship that would just let me hitch a ride back to my home town. The people that pickup the hitchhikers could be just as dangerous as the hitchhikers themselves..
Also sometimes colonists break down and "give up" which just causes them to walk to the edge of the map. And then i assume disappear. But so far i have imprisoned each one trying to "escape". Doesn't this maybe hint that there already is something else out there? And they just maybe don't want to go?
Events as they happen currently really seem to tell the story quite well already. Slavers and Raiders everywhere in space, and if colonists give up, they go somewhere else.
Quote from: mumblemumble on November 12, 2013, 02:25:00 AM
Quote from: Adeelos on November 12, 2013, 12:50:28 AM
Most people would be willing to make room in their cargo space for enough money, which is easy enough to stockpile in the game.
And how would you know that, you run a deep space trading ship?...keep in mind, this is anywhere between 3 - 12 HEAVILY ARMED strangers, which the ship most likely can't even confirm the identity of. And considering the absolute mess of security risks (the colonists killing the crew off, highjack, contamination from possible diseases(this is an uncharted planet, keep in mind), being tracked by those who have bounties on colonists, ect) The risk could be viewed as nowhere near worth it.
There's no SIGNIFICANT reason why they would just be rescued, this "plot hole" is the same as "well why don't they just talk it out with the rebel fleet" in regards to FTL's ending. Yes, TECHNICALLY it has a point, but its reading far too deep into it. The short answer is, the rebels (or in this case, traders) don't give a damn.
I'm just saying, *someone* would eventually say "money" over "safety concerns", especially if it was armed passengers who could help protect *them* from raiders boarding the ship in the long run. There is no black and white. Stop it.
Quote from: Adeelos on November 12, 2013, 01:25:15 PM(...) especially if it was armed passengers who could help protect *them* from raiders boarding the ship in the long run.
For all traders know they ARE raiders, murderers and psychopaths ;)
Quote from: Galileus on November 12, 2013, 02:36:34 PM
Quote from: Adeelos on November 12, 2013, 01:25:15 PM(...) especially if it was armed passengers who could help protect *them* from raiders boarding the ship in the long run.
For all traders know they ARE raiders, murderers and psychopaths ;)
Again, not every trader would think that though. Certainly some would, but not all.
Well, that's the point. Most would not, meaning we have a good explanation.
Quote from: Galileus on November 12, 2013, 02:50:21 PM
Well, that's the point. Most would not, meaning we have a good explanation.
At this point, we're arguing semantics. You can't possibly say definitively most would not. Too many variables when it comes to people and how they behave. Meaning we don't have a good explanation.
We have: "Three people crash landed on an unknown world. Forced to find any means to survive, they establish a colony. They are beset by a number of further misfortunes; raiders, psychotic wildlife, and constant wildfires to name a few. Eventually, they are able to build a means of communication with passing starships, some of which (slave traders) clearly have the ability to pick up and/or drop off people from the surface without the need for the survivors to build a means of getting themselves to space. For some reason, every single colonist has decided they would rather deal with wave after wave of increasingly more dangerous raiders, crop failures, explosive rats, and all sorts of other disastrous events than bargain their way off the planet back to civilized space with ANY of these passing starships by any means other than selling themselves off as slaves. Or, for that matter, even leave a transmission or S.O.S. to go with the traders back to settled space letting ANYONE know there are survivors there."
QuoteYou can't possibly say definitively most would not. Too many variables when it comes to people and how they behave. Meaning we don't have a good explanation.
This is silly. You can take EVERY masterpiece made EVER and tear it apart like that. Star Trek? We can't build warp engines yet, so their explanations were bollocks. Star Wars? Force is not explained at all! Bollocks! Reasons for Garrus to be on Shepard's team? We don't know his story all that well, so we can't say if their explanation is good or not. Bollocks. Would survivors team up in The Walking Dead? We have no reports from their psychiatrists, so we don't know. Here's a curve-ball - the psychiatrists would be made-up as well.
And here's the part I find utterly illogical - you say there are too many variables to predict how people would behave. The thing is - these variables are made up. By the guy telling the story. If you deny that, how would anyone ever create a story about people? Every explanation in a fiction will make up these variables. Are you telling us ever work of fiction is bollocks, because it's authors had no real idea how people would behave if that was real life?
You're not helping here. There is ALWAYS "what if" that can break the loop. We're talking about fiction here, we're making assumptions and rounding things up. We provided a story and gave good argumentation for it - exactly WHY traders wouldn't pick some random folks up for a ride. We took our time to think it over. All you do is say "nope, not good enough because it would be POSSIBLE someone would act differently". No argumentation, no alternatives... man, you want to help, at least provide some constructive feedback instead of denying everything.
Again, you are assuming a HUGE amount of optimism. Not only that but this topic has been brought up before (and is normally locked). You don't know the expenses / risks involved with picking up hitch hikers, and you assume company policy of all of these trade ships would allow it.
Try working as a delivery guy, and pick up random guys who need a ride, guarantee your boss gets wind of it, he most likely you will get your butt fired so fast. Besides, this seems to be a "backwoods" sort of area in space, a place for only trade routes and shady characters, mostly so that is another reason.
Just remember, they have no reason to help you, and thinking otherwise is pure optimism at best.
I can think up many more plot-holes in hundreds of games which have more convincing logic behind it, but I don't obsess over them, I just dismiss them.
Plus, in-case you didn't notice, the world generally becomes LESS caring the MORE people there are. If its 1 guy who needs help in the world, and its all you see, you are more likely to help than working someplace where theres dozens of beggars lining the sidewalk. Now imagine your are in space, you could have entire PLANETS of beggars you are passing by, what the heck would make you pick out just 1 group to help? They likely all blend in, and they likely would of heard all the sob stories before, so its very unlikely YOUR story would be any different. Especially working for a company, you aren't going to risk your job, and delaying a schedule for something risky like that.
This is a dark gritty game, in terms of what happens, people can go insane from work and go on shooting sprees for gods sake, and people burn their dead to manage the sheer amount of bodies. So why is a bunch of traders turning a blind eye to distress (which happens ALL THE TIME in real life) so unbelievable to you? Honestly I find raiders endlessly being blown away by turrets / snipers day after day less believable, but I don't call it an issue with the plot.
Have the traders stationed on the world itself.
This should allow a deeper interest in factions as well as generating strategic boons and conflict.
The Communications hub is still valid as you're just communicating on a shorter bandwidth.
Thus trading still exists and we get more in depth trading as a result.
Seems about the jist of it all, yeah?
Not really, having traders on world ruins the "alone and stranded" vibe. Traders in orbit makes more sense, you can trade, but you are still VERY much alone. There's more problems brought up by on-world trading than are fixed.
Potential game mechanic: option to ask for a ride, they may only have supplies for a few passengers if they say yes at all. Saying yes to only a few means you stay behind to run the colony with diminished staff, knowing that at least some made it home. If they have room for everyone, there is a chance all the colonists are taken as slaves, and you lose the game. There is also a chance it results in an early victory, but the chances of this happening would scale with game length so that building your own ship is easily more viable.
Quote from: mumblemumble on November 12, 2013, 04:19:39 PM
Not really, having traders on world ruins the "alone and stranded" vibe. Traders in orbit makes more sense, you can trade, but you are still VERY much alone. There's more problems brought up by on-world trading than are fixed.
And waves upon waves of raiders aren't breaking that vibe for you either?
They do slightly make me wonder why they would endlessly walk into death, BUT, these are low life's which don't follow societies rules, and seek to make your life hell. Not only that, but if you pay attention they use escape pods to land, meaning they are normally from space but land to mess up your day. They don't LIVE on the planet, and when they flea, I assume they run away to be picked back up by the rest of their raiding crew.
Think of it as a really ghetto neighborhood, and the only guy willing to give you a ride is someone who's going to slit your throat and steal your wallet, same concept, raiders are there to cause trouble, everyone else wants to avoid it if they can.
The constant back and forth arguing about whether space-faring traders would rescue the colonists (or the raiders) is the very reason why I've been looking for a narrative way out.
Making the traders not be space-faring seems the simplest solution to me, and fits the intended gameplay mechanics.
Erm... hate to be the downer, but you find it hard to believe that survivors wouldn't just hitch a ride on a spaceship but accept without doubt they would rather stay in cave with stick and stones when there's a megacity trade hub nearby that deals in modern technology?
If anything, it takes the hole and hypercharges it...
Quote from: Galileus on November 12, 2013, 06:28:54 PM
Erm... hate to be the downer, but you find it hard to believe that survivors wouldn't just hitch a ride on a spaceship but accept without doubt they would rather stay in cave with stick and stones when there's a megacity trade hub nearby that deals in modern technology?
Who said anything about a megacity trade hub nearby? The traders can simply be moving between settlements on the planet. And yes I'm aware this introduces the problem of why the survivors don't go to one of those settlements, but I think we can assume they're hostile to that idea given the raider situation.
why don't we make the comm station a mid stage research topic, so by the time the player gets it the colonists are established and don't want to leave?
Quote from: richard on November 12, 2013, 07:28:18 PMWho said anything about a megacity trade hub nearby? The traders can simply be moving between settlements on the planet. And yes I'm aware this introduces the problem of why the survivors don't go to one of those settlements, but I think we can assume they're hostile to that idea given the raider situation.
Traders are coming in high numbers and need to carry all the good stuffs - hi tech, weapons, slaves, uranium batteries, artillery pieces... it screams huge trade city to me.
Also, how would colonists be worried about raiders? They are armed and they are attacked because they are in a colony - moving to even a settlement (even more to a city) would increase their chances tenfold. The raiders are space-based as well - and if they were not, traders on foot would need real solid escorts and wouldn't have as much negativity for few more as space-faring ones would.
You're talking about them being hostile to idea of going to the city that is just there on horizon, while you expect them to suffer years of space travel with unknown men and no assurance where they'll end? It seems seriously far-fetched to me.
Threshold=subjective.
Bigger problem: how does stuff
get from us to them?
If you've got orbit,
what don't you have, man?
Automated cargo hauling drones or manned landing pods that you would expect trading vessels to have - unless you expect them to land on each and every planet wasting tons of fuel and having to be designed and build with atmospheric re-entry and escape in mind :) Don't fix what ain't broken!
And INB4 - they don't hijack these pods, because A) shot down from orbit when sensors pick up too many life-signs aboard B) if anyone survives no traders at all from that point
Would be actually a interesting idea if some oafs and vatgrowns decided to do so and you'd have to either convince them otherwise (social skill check) or arrest them.
Why not make only the slave traders be local to the planet and all intersolar traders be automated. All problems solved.
I am assuming everyone here has seen Firefly... or Serenity. Do you want that to happen to you in Deep space? pick up a hitch hiker and some box and find out its wanted criminals and get into a whole mess of trouble for Months, if not years to follow? Your in deep Space and there is no theoretical warp-drive... your stuck on your ship with people for weeks, months, years going planet to planet and you want to make money. You are NOT going to pick people up form a planet, and If you do, they are becoming slaves.
Quote from: Peuri on November 13, 2013, 03:12:44 PM
Why not make only the slave traders be local to the planet and all intersolar traders be automated. All problems solved.
There...Is....No...loophole.
And this would destroy the "stranded and alone" feel you get, having your only company being dropshipping raiders, or the few unfortunate to also crash land.