Tynan mentioned wanting a belief system at some point down the line. Still some things to take care of first but it would be kind of neat to talk about it now.
Different religions or philosophies would add some character to the colonists but it can also be a touchy subject. We can keep things non-specific like monotheists or polytheists and avoid any bonuses specific to a particular way of life. Last thing we need is to make people think one religion has an unfair advantage. Mostly I think it should impact what they do for fun. Attend a chapel? Build a shrine in your room? Sacrifice a boomrat on an altar? Occult belief could be fun but supernatural stuff might be too far.
Just curious if this is something people would want to have or want to avoid. I can see it going both ways.
Would there be any gameplay impact? Divine intervention instead of cargo pods? Violent outbursts between opposing colonists?
Personally, I prefer the original suggestion which was to do with the "void" God's, what with Ty saying wh40k is an inspiration to some extent, id love some Chaos gods (minus any copyright issues, obviously)
Also, as for religions, if your going poly and mono, don't forget atheists, and certainly no "divine interventions", But personal disagreements could of interesting. Tribes would be animists, maybe the more "civilised" individuals, such as glitter world people could be atheists. Medieval lords calling a crusade on you for believing that the sacred donuts should be green instead of red (red dwarf reference, as I dont remember the exact quote about the holy cat wars)
To be honest, I'm not looking forward to it.
Social systems are fine, but I wouldn't really care to have religion (or "non-religion") in the game. I think it limits storytelling freedom too much in comparison to the former, plus it is indeed a touchy subject.
Even Jono's suggestions with the stereotypes could cause offense.
Quote from: SSS on March 18, 2015, 03:49:01 PM....
Social systems are fine, but I wouldn't really care to have religion (or "non-religion") in the game. I think it limits storytelling freedom too much in comparison to the former, plus it is indeed a touchy subject....
I concur with this statement. While it adds, it also takes away. Could add variety, used in a storytelling sense, but the negatives may make it hard to implement.
Some are touchy about things, and as such in their games, and it just ends up being a flam-fest unfortunately. Maybe though Tynan could come up with a
very fantasy/fiction based set of 'beliefs'.
I like the thought of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Cthulu or Cthuffulo, god of muffalo's to be silly beliefs that the game could use. then there would be no stepping of toes or offending religions.
I would see religion as a neutral game-mechanic that you decide or not to make important the same way you have the choice to build the spaceship or not.
It's okay to me to have a token believer colonist might with a slight debuff if you don't cater their need, however it wouldn't change much except event (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=9755.0) in the same way psychically sensitive people react.
On the other hand, since Rimworld is a game where your construction's choices tread the story in a direction, building/crafting the structure/idol would amplify/create its effect, potentially leading to some end (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=11275.msg112541#msg112541).
Aside : it would obviously be fictional religions.
Quote from: SSS on March 18, 2015, 03:49:01 PM
To be honest, I'm not looking forward to it.
Social systems are fine, but I wouldn't really care to have religion (or "non-religion") in the game. I think it limits storytelling freedom too much in comparison to the former, plus it is indeed a touchy subject.
Even Jono's suggestions with the stereotypes could cause offense.
I couldnt agree more.
I think there's much to be gained by keeping it simple. There's a joy system coming so let it do its thing and make religion provide it.
"but my religion doesnt pray" "but mine need an altar" "but mine...". Well the game (and player) could easily regulate who can or cant do such or such religious activity or interact or dont with any religious building/station you might build.
I like complex systems but there's power in simplicity and abstraction as well
No. Religion only makes a mess of things. One need only look at our own, real history to see the absolute shambles that religion has made of it, directly or indirectly.
Adding some form of belief or religion aspect to this game will only serve to needlessly weigh down a colonist's daily life and potentially create pointless irritations between other colonists or even tribes/raiders/whatever. I don't want to build a grand settlement just to have some random schmuck colonist join and ruin everything because his or her belief grates with everyone elses'.
Guys, void gods are awesome (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/List_of_Warp_Entities). Eldritch entities stirring in the unfathomable chaos of the immaterium answering to no one but themselves. Timeless, made incarnate by humanity's cauldron of emotions. Spanning incomprehensible dimensions invisible to our feeble minds.* Hell yeah! How else are we going to get cannibal cultists, crazy crusades, and bloody schisms?
(http://i.imgur.com/C17VSKJ.png)
*(I'm speaking of course of Randy Random and Cassandra Classic)
Quote from: Silvador on March 18, 2015, 09:17:49 PM
No. Religion only makes a mess of things. One need only look at our own, real history to see the absolute shambles that religion has made of it, directly or indirectly.
Adding some form of belief or religion aspect to this game will only serve to needlessly weigh down a colonist's daily life and potentially create pointless irritations between other colonists or even tribes/raiders/whatever. I don't want to build a grand settlement just to have some random schmuck colonist join and ruin everything because his or her belief grates with everyone elses'.
Which, actually, does make for greater challenges and story making, at least gameplay-wise.
I actually wouldn't mind any kind of religious behaviors in-game, but since i know not everyone is as tolerating as i am i think a joy-based thing is a good compromise. Everything else, such as strife and other religion related events should, well, be events.
Implementation would be finicky and easily offended types wouldn't make it any easier, for sure.
It would also sort of kill the immersion for some others who don't see the relevance. Would be easy enough to just roleplay something appropriate for your colonists.
Quote from: Johnny Masters on March 18, 2015, 09:32:32 PM
Which, actually, does make for greater challenges and story making, at least gameplay-wise.
Or a few free organs, at least.
I'm all in favor of a more abstract system. My OP was just to get the ball rolling more than anything else. What about the trait 'Spiritual' and let the player decide what that really means. Everyone else without the trait isnt too effected by it. Then there can be 'Cultist' dealing with the void gods in some form.
Myself I wouldn't imagine it any other way than a 'trait' or background.
I disagree that it wouldn't bring anything good to the game, after raider you could have cultist attacking you... or defending you, all the while being neutral, not forced down your throat.
In my mind the game-logic associated doesn't need to be complex, it would work the same than other trait and use already existing mechanic.
Though Experiment :
You have a spiritual 'trait', affected colonist react to event linked to it (like psychic) with a mood-buff/debuff.
Using craft/art you can decide to build specific idol... or not. It barely affect things.
Praying... is made a 'fun'-type activity, it doesn't require more code.
Faction could be religious, and abandoned temple appear on the map. Once we get a minimum of diplomacy between faction exchange like 'built X and we will like you' shouldn't be hard.
If you want nothing to do with religion... then a 'spiritual' afflicted colonist just can't pray, live with a debuff or go insane and get killed, cultist might crusade but they replace raider so nothing changed.
And in the end it still make a story.
Now of course what I wouldn't want is a spirituality bar to fill for everyone as if they all had to care, there would lie madness.
Quote from: Kegereneku on March 19, 2015, 04:56:20 PM
Myself I wouldn't imagine it any other way than a 'trait' or background.
I disagree that it wouldn't bring anything good to the game, after raider you could have cultist attacking you... or defending you, all the while being neutral, not forced down your throat.
In my mind the game-logic associated doesn't need to be complex, it would work the same than other trait and use already existing mechanic.
Though Experiment :
You have a spiritual 'trait', affected colonist react to event linked to it (like psychic) with a mood-buff/debuff.
Using craft/art you can decide to build specific idol... or not. It barely affect things.
Praying... is made a 'fun'-type activity, it doesn't require more code.
Faction could be religious, and abandoned temple appear on the map. Once we get a minimum of diplomacy between faction exchange like 'built X and we will like you' shouldn't be hard.
If you want nothing to do with religion... then a 'spiritual' afflicted colonist just can't pray, live with a debuff or go insane and get killed, cultist might crusade but they replace raider so nothing changed.
And in the end it still make a story.
Now of course what I wouldn't want is a spirituality bar to fill for everyone as if they all had to care, there would lie madness.
This would be making Religion a hunger. A constant, nagging, driving force that will forever need feeding, just like sleep and, well... hunger. I neither need nor want another "need" that I must attend to in the daily life of my colonists amid building, harvesting, cooking and defending. Having to constantly worry about my colonist's spiritual needs is just another redundant mechanic piled on top of several already in place. Food, shelter and a good hiding place to shoot from is all a person should ever need. Adding Religion on top of that only serves to complicate things needlessly further. Temple? More crap to build. Pray? More crap to do. Different religious beliefs? More worries about if someone in my colony is going to get into fights with another person in my colony because of what they think.
Civilization games have religion and that is fine, because it is a wide spread aspect over an entire empire and has virtually no impact on the growth and production of an individual settlement. But such a mechanic on a level this small only serves to muddy the water, making things pointlessly difficult.
If you want religion, make a mod for it. Don't put it in the core game. Or at the very least, add in an option to exclude religion from your gameplay experience.
If religion were implemented, I'd like to see it
A) Tied to the 'fun' and 'mood' systems
and
B) Trait-based
So say, a pawn may be spawned with the 'devout monotheist' or 'casual polytheist' traits, and depended on how fervent they are they could take a simple mood debuff if they go too long without having a place to worship. Just add like 3 religions like monotheist, polytheist, and shamanist and you're set. Monotheists could have a podium with a holy book that they pray at, maybe polytheists have an altar where they burn offerings of raw meat, and shamans have an outdoor garden area to pray at. Recent prayers/offerings could give them a mood buff.
I think this way we could have a meaningful yet non-convoluted religion system.
Quote from: Silvador on March 19, 2015, 08:42:49 PM
This would be making Religion a hunger. A constant, nagging, driving force that will forever need feeding, just like sleep and, well... hunger. I neither need nor want another "need" that I must attend to in the daily life of my colonists amid building, harvesting, cooking and defending. Having to constantly worry about my colonist's spiritual needs is just another redundant mechanic piled on top of several already in place.
[...]
I do not see how what I said resemble your dramatizing interpretation.
Rimworld-speaking what I described is not "hunger", it doesn't need to be filled up regularly or you die. The debuff I mentioned isn't necessary outside of event and could on the opposite be a 'buff'.
All I described was as 'trait' working like any other do (cold skinned, psychically sensitive...etc) to add more depth to colonists characterization.
Plus other way it could link with thing we expect anyway like diplomacy with other faction. Just like we would expect cultist in such an environment.
In my eyes you might as well be arguing against the very idea of 'trait' and 'mood', two core elements of Rimworld.
To give a reference I consider my suggestion way simpler than kingtyris' one above.
Edit : After reflexion maybe you misunderstood when I said "Praying is considered a *fun-like activity" which fit the "hunger-like" description, I meant it only in that the religious colonist would consider praying as something that bring them *joy *fun and gain said thing, BUT also happen to negate a debuff (if we really want to not portray religion as something positive which I'm ok with)
Quote from: SSS on March 18, 2015, 03:49:01 PM
To be honest, I'm not looking forward to it.
Social systems are fine, but I wouldn't really care to have religion (or "non-religion") in the game. I think it limits storytelling freedom too much in comparison to the former, plus it is indeed a touchy subject.
Even Jono's suggestions with the stereotypes could cause offense.
Could cause offense?
Frak overly-sensitive people. It's a game. It's art. Freedom of expression. It should NOT be safe.
Don't like it? mod it out or play another game. It's as simple as that.
No offense, but the "but it could hurt someones dainty little feelings" argument belongs in the trash bin.
I'd hope that space faring civilisations in the year 5500 would have long since disposed of religions, but that's just me projecting. ;D
I like Kegereneku's suggestion of having religious tendencies as a trait that provides a mood buff/debuff depending on the situation and strength of their convictions. The colonist doesn't necessarily have to have a prayer room/mat/cap/whatever, or a religious bar that needs to be filled like joy, though the option to create an idol that could be placed in their room for mood buffs would be good. Perhaps said idols could create a mood debuff for those considered as atheists.
Quote from: TrashMan on March 20, 2015, 06:00:46 AM
No offense, but the "but it could hurt someones dainty little feelings" argument belongs in the trash bin.
+1
..Still wouldn't care for this addition, though.
Thank you monk of the fish people.
Adding 'Religion' aspect (without hijacking the gameplay) can surely be done through existing mechanic, then amplified as wanted through equally simple addition (as in : I would expect it to be barely noticeable 'added idol' line in Tynan's changelog).
To my understanding 'trait' already allow the situational mood buff/debuff.
The 'fun mechanism' will allow Colonist self-generated activity.
Structure can already generate beauty and 'fuse' with the room they are in.
Faction/Event can already detect and target 'idols'.
And who know what could happen if Tynan ever add a 'trait injection' mechanism ?
You can call me an Atheist/Agnostic, yet I would totally replay a game of Rimworld to make a Large Idol in a beautiful temple and convert everyone into bloodthirsty* devout of the Void God.
*animal blood, their religion recommend meat**.
**meat from non-sentient person like non-believer.
Belief systems can be a great way to aim for something grand, think of the pyramids, cathedrals and the like. It could also add victory conditions. I thought to make something grand, and once finshed, I'd be happy without needing to leave by spaceship.
My a7 chapel was too simple in itself, so it was dedicated to expensive stuffs. It wasn't frequented by any pawns other than those watering plants which would have been nice. And to make it a challenge, it should be expensive, which quickly degraded to a hunger for gold... more gold! So the $ grand plan was designed. After this was burned down by tribals a few walls before it was finished, I took it as a sign to trade this godforsaken planet for space the traditional way.
(http://i.imgur.com/11jMnLF.png)
Quote from: Silvador on March 19, 2015, 08:42:49 PM
If you want religion, make a mod for it. Don't put it in the core game. Or at the very least, add in an option to exclude religion from your gameplay experience.
+1 My sentiments exactly, have the core game support the concepts. But make it an option. Personally I do not see how adding 'religion' adds value to the game - especially at this point when other things could do more. At least in many of the suggestions I have seen on the forums (add a few traits, make a new need, add some moods etc) Of course these are all good suggestions but I think the implementation needs much more discussion (for balance and naming). And should be able to be turned off (not part of the CORE module).
Let's try system the before deciding it's awful and should be turned off. Have a little faith in Tynan lol.
Beliefs are a huge part of the western-space opera-dwarf fortress setting RimWorld is inspired by. Major sources of inspiration like Dune and Warhammer revolve pretty heavily around what the different factions believe, and it's hard to disagree they're awesome.
Beliefs and void gods have been on the design table for a long time, since the kickstarter. I know I want to see what it adds, and many others do too. Prayer is the first start to that, and I know people have been complaining, but heaven forbid my colonists give proper thanks to the void gods for their bountiful human flesh harvests.
Quote from: REMworlder on March 21, 2015, 09:37:39 AM...
Beliefs are a huge part of the western-space opera-dwarf fortress setting RimWorld is inspired by. Major sources of inspiration like Dune and Warhammer revolve pretty heavily around what the different factions believe, and it's hard to disagree they're not awesome....
As far as styles to mimic/inspire, the worlds of Dune
(read the book, the movie is ok) and Warhammer are imo suitable candidates for mirroring. Anything that has nothing to do with an real-world realities.
Quote from: TrashMan on March 20, 2015, 06:00:46 AM
Could cause offense?
Frak overly-sensitive people. It's a game. It's art. Freedom of expression. It should NOT be safe.
Don't like it? mod it out or play another game. It's as simple as that.
No offense, but the "but it could hurt someones dainty little feelings" argument belongs in the trash bin.
It might make the game better?
Screw overly-callous people. It's a game. It's art. Who cares if others want to turn this into a sociopolitical statement?
Don't like it? Mod it in or play another game. It's as simple as that.
No offense, but the "I only care about how things affect me and not others" argument belongs in the trash bin.
(Please take my response with plenty of irony and a bit of salt, but I don't see how your response relates to whether religion would actually make the game better or not. You seem to just be antagonizing me for whatever reason. May I request responding to whether it limits storytelling freedom or not instead?)
A10, my colonist was in his room praying, my first question was, to who? Would be nice to see more detailed information about the colonists religious views without making it really have any effect on the gameplay. We could even make some of the artwork have religion tags, so maybe the artist of a specific religion created an artwork venerating that religion, which in turn gives others of the same religion an even greater benefit from seeing the artwork in the colony. And you could even go the other way by making a matrix of opposing religions, so the art from one religion would have a lesser or negative effect on people following different religions.
Honestly, far, far more other areas that could have the work put elsewhere.
Lets not even bring our personal views of religion into it as this will cause needless grinding among the community, However I do see it as a way to flesh out our colonists when kept simple.
And I do mean simple.
Have random gods like game of thrones does it.
Tribals can follow the old gods.
Glitter worlds can follow some lords of light or whatever (they are GLITTER worlds so it makes sense even though it means technology) thats kind of the 40k inspired ones.
Pirates can follow the gods of ruin (since thats all they do)
Outlander towns can follow no one. They don't care at all.
As far as implementation goes, have it trait based (e.g devout prayer - this person takes at least 4-5 hours a day praying)
Or event based (This person will fast for a day, their mood may be worse)
Or have it social based, a glitter world colonist will not like someone in the colony who spends all their time blabbing about the god of chaos.
And have that kind of thing have a permanent -1 or mins -2 to their mood.
If there are multiple, have something simple for all of them like 'book of chaos' on a podium.
This will allow players to build grand buildings if they wish which could be cool as at the moment there isn't any reason to do anything a certain way.
Lastly, only have like 1/4 colonists belong to anything. Have it like a 4th trait.
Chaos worshipper.
Luminescent/ Light believer.
Ancient Ones follower.
None.
Keep it simple and for the love of light. If anyone gets offended (somehow) then slap them because its just a damn game. Im sure they don't get offended every time they see it on tv. World is over sensitive about everything!.
But keep it light and use no real world religious terms and id be happy to see it implemented. :)