Back in A8 one could use several items of furniture as makeshift barricades, which would block movement and allow you to fire over them. In A9 this functionality was pulled. For the most part. Those of us who checked soon found out that Solar panels could be used in the same way, and were the only item left in game that could be so used.
Well in A10 that's gone too. So it raises the simple question:
How we meant to defend ourselves if we can't prepare the Battlefield in advance? That's why the enemies have massively more in the way of numbers, because we get the defending advantage.
Well we just lost a good part of our tools now. Simply put we cannot stop the enemy from reaching our lines. I like to play the long game, so this is a massive issue. It seems my only options are to either build a traditional killbox of turrety doom, or get a mod.
Neither of which are appealing for me. This build I was going to try out a bunker approach, with lots of bunkers dotted around to which my colonists could retire and shoot at enemies. Guess that idea's busted.
but a table in real life canbe climbed over, a window can be climbed into, and Tynan models some of this stuff on real life (where its simple to do so) so the answer to your question is you cannot put your colonists in a position where they can attack but cannot be attacked (and by this I mean approached and attacked) back....without mods.
Quote from: skullywag on April 17, 2015, 07:21:18 AM
but a table in real life canbe climbed over, a window can be climbed into, and Tynan models some of this stuff on real life (where its simple to do so) so the answer to your question is you cannot put your colonists in a position where they can attack but cannot be attacked (and by this I mean approached and attacked) back....without mods.
Oh right, in Real life... you mean barricades like we've been making since Roman times?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Pilum_murale_01.jpg
A simple static item to prevent crossing while allowing the defender to return fire has been easily constructable for the entirety of human history. Never mind inventions such as barbed wire. A defended obstacle such as a window is actually very hard to get through.
And thorough history, humans have been smart enough to find ways around such barricades, or destroy them. AI in Rimworld is not smart enough (yet). That's why letting players to build something like that would turn Rimworld into Tower Defence.
Quote from: b0rsuk on April 17, 2015, 09:02:09 AM
And thorough history, humans have been smart enough to find ways around such barricades, or destroy them. AI in Rimworld is not smart enough (yet). That's why letting players to build something like that would turn Rimworld into Tower Defence.
So? At the moment its impacting long term gameplay.
Oh and I put up an idea on how to make the AI appear smarter here:
https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12013.0
the thing about a barricade is that people are able to climb over them... thats in real life along with most things. your goal shouldnt be to keep them from climbing over your barricade, but to kill them before they get there.
im not really sure where your complaint is coming from though, it seems like you were all using objects in ways they werent supposed to be used, and the devs fixed that. the only thing that should actively stop movement is walls and other structures such as that. just learn to play without needing barricades?? generally, my sandbag barricades are the last line of defense, something to fall back to for extended firefights... are you using them as some sort of extended maze like thing where you can shoot at the enemy like they're fish in a barrel?
Quote from: rexx1888 on April 17, 2015, 09:15:08 AM
the thing about a barricade is that people are able to climb over them... thats in real life along with most things. your goal shouldnt be to keep them from climbing over your barricade, but to kill them before they get there.
im not really sure where your complaint is coming from though, it seems like you were all using objects in ways they werent supposed to be used, and the devs fixed that. the only thing that should actively stop movement is walls and other structures such as that. just learn to play without needing barricades?? generally, my sandbag barricades are the last line of defense, something to fall back to for extended firefights... are you using them as some sort of extended maze like thing where you can shoot at the enemy like they're fish in a barrel?
I generally have an open area with a line of walls for the colonists to hide behind, with something to block the ability to cross. Then when the attackers enter the open area my colonists light them up. I tried it with sniper rifles (when they were more common) and they didn't lay down enough firepower, the line got over run, so I had to shrink the area down and use LMG's. But even so large attacks of Tribals were capable of reaching my lines.
I guess the way forward is 100% Brawlers.
What i was getting at was the item you were using as non crossable barriers arent non crossable in real life. you are basically asking for ebrasures which have been done to death in mods and i believe Tynan has stated why he wont be adding them.
The real world justifications are completely irrelevant.
Listy you ought to already know what happens when you put embrasures into Rimworld.
The AI can't handle them, it turns even the most clumsy of defensive setups into horrible pawn blenders.
Yes it would be nice for embrasures to exist and the AI to be able to handle them sensibly, but since the AI isn't in place that allows interaction, putting embrasures into the game doesn't make a lot of sense.
In the short term if you're struggling heavily in long term games then opt to Waffle your killboxes with sandbags and use 1 or 2 grenades.
A vanilla killbox with.. 3? 4? turrets and 10-15 colonists armed appropriately can handle upwards of 70 tribals because the AI can't handle the bomb-turrets and pawns can't stand on sandbags and fight.
It's nonlinear as well - More enemies generally means more accurate colonists and there's no diminishing returns on grenades or Molotovs.
What the hell do you need embrasures for?
Quote from: skullywag on April 17, 2015, 09:44:13 AM
What i was getting at was the item you were using as non crossable barriers arent non crossable in real life.
Actually I'm asking for barricades, but details :p
As to crossable items. Take any obstacle, now put a bloke on the other side of it with a rifle and see if it remains crossable...
As Boboid states though the AI doesnt respond that way, they just run at you. They rarely take cover so based on this the passable tables we now have are exactly what you just referred to in your last post. Youve stuck a guy with a rifle on it why do you care if the ai treats it as passable.
There is kind of a way to get the AI to handle embrasures, but you're not going to like it.
Turrets have a tag combatTargetBuilding which is set to true. You can apply that to an embrasure and then enemy pawns will treat them the same way.
It's not unfair, really. You still get to use it to shoot out, difference is you're not going to be able to hide behind it with impunity any more - suddenly you'll have a breach in the wall.
There are barricades. They're called sandbags.
Now if you mean you want something that can't be moved over, this creates a catch-22 in the balance which can't really be solved.
1. If fights are balanced when the barricades aren't present, then adding the barricades makes the defender basically invincible.
2. If we balance fights to require the barricades, then it becomes impossible to win without them.
Of course I could solve this catch-22 by changing AI or redesigning other parts of the game. But I haven't had time to do that.
Quote from: MarvinKosh on April 17, 2015, 12:22:20 PM
There is kind of a way to get the AI to handle embrasures, but you're not going to like it.
Actually I think that's a very nice idea! As the enemy would concentrate fire on the target point, and the poor colonist behind it is likely to suffer some damage.
Quote from: Tynan on April 17, 2015, 12:33:54 PM
There are barricades. They're called sandbags.
Now if you mean you want something that can't be moved over, this creates a catch-22 in the balance which can't really be solved.
1. If fights are balanced when the barricades aren't present, then adding the barricades makes the defender basically invincible.
2. If we balance fights to require the barricades, then it becomes impossible to win without them.
Of course I could solve this catch-22 by changing AI or redesigning other parts of the game. But I haven't had time to do that.
I would argue in the long game its impossible to win without them as is. I mean I'll give it a shot on this one but I have my suspicions It'll all end in a 50+ tribal instant charge.
Wait, I thought that if you got your barricades and killboxes right, attackers would just move in with mortars and try to take our your base that way?
I have found several LMGs are more than enough to scare most tribals before they even attack me.
I tried setting embrasures as a combat building. The problem is that raiders then obsess about destroying those instead of the nearby turrets. So, I ditched that idea and made them passable, but with the same movement cost as sandbags. If there's a quicker path to get into my base (like a smashed-in door) I guess that raiders will use that instead
you dont need embrasures.. you barely need sandbags. you need t o t h i n k l a t e r a l l y . this isnt a tower defense game, your not making a dorf fort, you can do better :). modern warfare is very different to old school swords bull. think sideways, youll be fine :D
Well if they're statistically similar to sandbags, then it's mostly a cosmetic difference.
But yeah, you don't need to slow down the enemy, you just need to be able to hold them off long enough to reposition and flank them. Which means, having more than one way in and out of the base.
If raiders are determined to break in, one entrance door isn't going to keep them at bay. But the confined quarters of the entrance area can be turned into a trap, whether it's because your guys circle around and fire from behind, or because you pour in from a side door with melee weapons.
You could make the player capable of building barbwire but you know what we will inevitably do with it.
"Next in our tour : you can see the successive row of barbwire that encircle the killbox, here and there you might see some raider left to rot after being mowed down from the bunker's embrasures"
Though, to play devil advocate your could make it an double-edged investment.
- Barbwire that cost X steel, can be destroyed by melee or grenade weapon. (if AI smart enough)
- that do not give back ore once destroyed
- get destroyed as they slow down anyone
Or maybe the only thing you can't repair ?
You can still have "Barricades" Just make use of water filled areas that have natural rocks jammed into them.
Or get the Embrasures mod.
What I don't get is how this would make a world of difference, it just takes out the melee component out in open conflict Pawn v Pawn.
Kill Boxes, or mines should be what really takes the cake.
Quote from: BetaSpectre on April 19, 2015, 04:39:00 PM
What I don't get is how this would make a world of difference, it just takes out the melee component out in open conflict Pawn v Pawn.
As I said when there's a huge wall of enemies rushing towards you intent on bashing your colonists on the head with a club, that melee component is quite significant.
Especially when you start getting colonists kidnapped.
Here's a thought that I had earlier on.
Rather than just making barricades which you can just put anywhere to slow down the enemy, why not instead have door braces which help to absorb some of the punishment a door takes, or something similar? Bearing in mind, you wouldn't be able to just sit there and spam door braces, it's just a temporary measure to slow down the invaders and give you a chance to get positioned.
Remember Dungeon Keeper and its array of buildable traps? Granted, traps are very killbox-y, but if they are single-use or need to be reset after a fight, then at least you're sinking time and resources into something which tips the odds, but not in a 'saturate this area with bullets' way.
Quote from: rexx1888 on April 19, 2015, 12:22:48 AM
you dont need embrasures.. you barely need sandbags. you need t o t h i n k l a t e r a l l y . this isnt a tower defense game, your not making a dorf fort, you can do better :). modern warfare is very different to old school swords bull. think sideways, youll be fine :D
You've said things, but what do they mean? What is thinking laterally in this context?
kill boxes are all very well an good, but there are lots of ways to kill an enemy force thats stupid enough to congo line its way to your base. apart from simply using your buildings to split them up and fire on them, ive also had success with a hallway with doors in the sides that you can duck in and out of. i didnt even bother with sandbags on that one.
You can also build various ambush turrets out beyond your home that will pick off the odd straggler and draw the rest in, then blow up. Seriously, atm the ai is kinda dumb, and it makes it really easy to exploit it without needing a killbox(they dont even run away from the exploding turrets for goodness sake). Its just that a killbox is super unimaginative so everyone goes there first, an since it works fine with the dumb ai they dont bother to invent new things. no barricades just means you need to think around the enemy, instead of literally standing in front of it an shooting at it. at the end of the day though, soon Tynan will make enemies that actually blow up your walls with those fancy rockets... then they can make their own entrances and your killbox will be a moot point anyway.