I really like to see weapons that will need ammunition. This would improve fights. There would be also big difference between pistol and assault rifle and sniper rifle. In general fights would be more realistic and players will need to think about (higher) strategy.
Advocated already. Support for this known request!
-1
Sorry, I think we should sacrifice it to increase the chance of getting out-colony expedition, or stuff.
personally i find mortar ammo tedious enough as it is. ammo for guns would be terrible for micromanaging. if we only controlled a single person then sure, but not when we can have a dozen or so.
that being said, an item like an 'ammo pouch' that a pawn can wear, would let them fire faster without any penalty. keeping it more abstract. though i wouldnt want to sacrifice the armor or any other clothing slot for it.
Quote from: JimmyAgnt007 on May 12, 2015, 12:16:28 PM
personally i find mortar ammo tedious enough as it is. ammo for guns would be terrible for micromanaging. if we only controlled a single person then sure, but not when we can have a dozen or so.
that being said, an item like an 'ammo pouch' that a pawn can wear, would let them fire faster without any penalty. keeping it more abstract. though i wouldnt want to sacrifice the armor or any other clothing slot for it.
But in alpha 9 we had keys that was in another slot. Ammo would be in that same "slot". And i think this should be automatic - colonists will picking up ammo for weapon that they have like other apparels.
if its automatic then whats the point? ammunition production is not a resource intensive process on the scale we are working with. a single unit of metal and you could make hundreds of bullets. depending on how much a single unit supposedly weighs. a person can carry hundreds of bullets and battles generally dont use all that many shots. so if it costs so little, used very little, and managed automatically, then its not really worth the effort to program.
the only way to make it a gameplay challenge would be to severely limit how much ammo you can carry, to a ridiculously low amount. and thus necessitate mid-battle reequipping. and make production wildly expensive.
i get what you are trying for but i feel like it would just either be tedious to maintain or occasionally annoying.
Quote from: JimmyAgnt007 on May 12, 2015, 12:48:53 PM
if its automatic then whats the point? ammunition production is not a resource intensive process on the scale we are working with. a single unit of metal and you could make hundreds of bullets. depending on how much a single unit supposedly weighs. a person can carry hundreds of bullets and battles generally dont use all that many shots. so if it costs so little, used very little, and managed automatically, then its not really worth the effort to program.
the only way to make it a gameplay challenge would be to severely limit how much ammo you can carry, to a ridiculously low amount. and thus necessitate mid-battle reequipping. and make production wildly expensive.
i get what you are trying for but i feel like it would just either be tedious to maintain or occasionally annoying.
When i say "weapons with ammo" i mean "weapons with ammo that you need to reload" for this you will need ammo (anyway i think that Tynan made first step - he added ammo to mortars)....
personal opinions on mortar ammo aside, at least each round is big enough to justify manufacturing. an artillery shell is a lot bigger than a rifle round. bullets on the other hand are tiny. they would be in stack sizes like silver coins. it would be just too easy to produce so many bullets with minimal investment that you would be hard pressed to ever run out.
there are already pauses between burst of gunfire, an abstract concept would be a longer pause to reload after x number of bursts to simulate reloading. i dont like the idea but it makes more sense. either way actually counting the bullets seems to be needlessly detailed.
Yeah I don't really feel the need for ammo. It's hard enough making sure everyone has pants on, let along making sure they are locked and loaded. Will I have to spoon feed them their potatoes and raiders next? Heh.
But yeah, I feel that within a week everyone would always have thousands of rounds, it would just be another thing I would have to keep checking set up to take ammo properly, and mircoing the hell outa it so I don't inadvertently end up with 2^68 rounds of 5.56 but for some reason no 7.62, when it would be heaps easier to not have it and just say we did
Let the numbers come first...
Ah yes ammo, the third scourge of the forums besides multiplayer and fog of war :D
i'd +5 only if extremely streamlined (no minute ammo types) and if micro was eased, such as auto-refill when undrafted and instantly rearming when passing next to a weapon cache. Then it would work better with extra slots so you can can have several options such as bringing extra ammo or an extra melee weapon for example. When out of ammo, battles would devolve to brawls, which should (or could) be a hella funny.
I like the added logistics and management of it all, rimworld being a management game and all, but i can see how some people who are more tuned to the building aspect of the game being put off by it. Perhaps a mod could tackle it first to see how it fares.
btw, do a search for the dozens of posts on ammo, there's a couple of good talk there if memory serves me well
Having different types of ammunition and different calibers and having it all in limited stock is great!
For the newbies, I would suggest allowing them infinite universal ball ammunition filled mags. The customisation range of ammunition is immense, ever knew the difference between a .22(5.6) and a .50(12.7)? The weight and space differences? Maybe how armor piercing is better at mechanoids and vehicles vs incendiary on flesh and blood or even having hollow points to cause maximum lethality vs raiders. The choice is there.
If you want abstraction, fine. I do not blame you. But think about all the fine details that will make a difference get lost in the process. Why a particular gun is better off using 9mm against a more powerful 7.62 mmR (commonly .308) for example instead of letting the balance dorks decide on what is more fair. You don't shoot with more .22 when you use a 50. cal Browning for one.
Having ammunition at all leads to the universal concept of having rounds in a mag that your colonists are free to shoot all they want instead of this 2 to 8 round bursts they call a mag and make it all turn-basey.
Irritated at your M9 (9mm) having too little a magazine capacity? Research and manufacture a larger one! (17 to 32)
Dislike for your run of the mill shotgun shells? Stick stuff in them and watch your crafted projectiles go! (Custom ammunition)
Ever wanted to explore fully the innings of Project Armory? Now is the chance. Scream in favor of ammunition that lasts.
Edit: Caliber conversions.
Edit 2 (Reply):
@Kegereneku 1. We need a backpack slot.
2. Get a vehicle or bring less voluminous ammunition ie. more 5.6mm(.22) ammo can be carried than 5.56mm (.223) ammo.
In other words, grab a Pistol/Personal Defense Weapon for the best results in the ammunition count economy.
Edit 3 (Reply):
@Mikhail Reign
You would be assigning ammunition to your colonists who would automatically fill up ammo to your set quota.
It seems as though you should get the easy mode infinite ball ammo for those who hate the complexity equivalent to a 4X.
You would be making ammunition by hand, taking ammo from raiders or buying them. Maybe an automated ammunitions and explosives production facility would do good as well. Limited by stockpile availability. The armory kind that does not include haphazardly placing ammunition on the ground. The kind that is locked up and logged.
Perhaps i'd enjoy more (or care for) the intricacies of different ammo types in a jagged alliance/silent storm type of game, which even have a specific era. But this being the future and all, our contemporary ammo types even sound anachronistic.
That said, i get what you are saying about fine details, but a common ground (between no ammo and gun nuts) is having these dozens of ammo types (some with minute differences) be translated into your: Standard Ammo, AP ammo, HE ammo, whatever-we-fancy-ammo...
When you think about it, it might as well be turned into one of the game options for complexity preferences sake.
The differences in playstyle is just too great when it comes to ammunition.
If you did your research, almost all ammunition is different.
Define standard ammo. What makes up standard ammo? Define AP ammo. What makes up standard ammo?
You could just do my way of system and make your preset ratios to the above.
Standard ammo. 1 part ball ammo, 1 part tracer ball ammo, 1 part hollow-point.
AP ammo. 2 parts AP steel core sabot, 1 part tracer, 1 part ball.
Just think of it like an RT4X, once you set it all up, you will forget it's there until you notice just the stark influence in gameplay these can have.
I think the X-Com method is best. Unlimited ammo but occasional reloads. Accessories that augment the ammo type. So if you want incendiary rounds you equip an ammo pouch for that but you still dont have a finite number of bullets.
Nobody can say for certain what is best but at least an explanation would help.
How would it make the game any better?
We need a better way to resolve this dilemma than continuous posting in this thread...
QuoteIf you did your research, almost all ammunition is different.
If you read carefully, I said that some ammo types have minute/small differences (infer: not worthy to be translated into the game), I never said all nor that even some are, although some do, with the difference being that they are made by competing manufacturers.
For example, there's no point in having both FMJ and HP if the game's health system doesn't feature tissue penetration (damage is in a single area, unless its an explosion) nor differentiating 7.62 39 from 51 if the game doesn't feature... i dunno, recoil?
A lot of ammo types were made to be a standard in its time/nation/conglomerate. So a standard ammo in rimworld is whatever is standard in that time and place.
I'll put some random made up numbers so, in game terms:
standard ammo: 12 damage
armor piercing ammo: 8 damage, ignores x amount of armor/ or halves armor.
high explosive damage: 8 ballistic damage + 6 explosion damage on radius
etcetera
If standard ammo is 1 part ball ammo, 1 part tracer and 1 part hollow, why not call it standard ammo and abstract all these parts?
I'm not saying your system doesn't work, just that it sounds too gun nutting / detailed for the average rimworld audience. If it works and most people find it cool, then cool.
Full metal jackets deal less damage to flesh than hollow points.
Full metal jackets can pierce soft targets and proceed on through.
vs
Hollow points deal more damage to flesh due to expansion.
Hollow points cannot pierce soft targets as it disintegrates in flesh for the maximum damage.
Hollow points can better annihilate organs.
Recoil can be modelled by decreasing accuracy as the firing sustains. It just isn't implemented atm due to burst firing emulation.
Tracer rounds can affect accuracy in sustained fire at mid range.
There are different standard ammunitions. I only stated the universal (neutral against all mix) ammunition as standard.
It may seem too detailed but it is an intuitive system in contrast to x rounds per shot systems.
A comprehensive, logical system for a crucial element in whether your colony lives or dies. Fitting.
-1
A nice idea at adding realism but presents a logistical nightmare. It'd be a logistical headache because we'd need ammo in each caliber. Do you really want to manage ammo for each weapon? And where are you going to get the ammo from? Traders? You can't rely on having the right kind of trader at the right time, with the enough of the right kind of inventory and you having enough silver to buy what you need. Perhaps instead of getting ammo from a weapons trader, colonists craft it. Now you have to deal with managing bills for different types of rounds, having enough raw materials, and having to make sure a colonist is there working on the bills. We all know how hard it can be to get a colonist to work on bills reliably.
It also breaks the mechanic of battles with ranged weapons. I say that if colonists can exhaust their ammo then so should enemies. In a long battle either you run out of ammo and get overrun, or, the attackers run out of ammo and flee. The game then becomes stock up ammo and defend until the attackers run out of ammo. I'd set up a bank of turrets while my colonists instead of firing a single shot just stand behind cover and repair the turrets until the attackers run out of ammo. In fact I would probably just blanket turrets around my base and not even give colonists guns. Each just gets a melee weapon and builds and repairs turrets as needed. Snipers attacking outside of turret range are prevented by walls or dealt with by a mace-wielding melee squad.
Requiring ammo for ranged weapons means they run out of ammo and become obsolete.
Ammunition for the most basic kinds are really cheap, 5.6 mm actually costs less than 3 cents per bullet due to mass production in the USA.
Imagine a galaxy's worth. It would be dirt cheap without regulations or taxes.
I won't comment on the worth of silver because, as it stands, silver is actually very abundant in asteroid mining so...
I would go by a quota system to ammunition, an automated 'do until you have x' where 'x' is the total available secure ammunitions storage with each caliber being a set percentage by the player.
Bullets and metal... balancing for bullet per unit steel is an unknown...
Turrets eat ammo like hell the way it's implemented atm. Fact is, turrets has always been unbalanced. It has free AI where it should not have and so on. If anything, it would have either crappy range and damage firing 5.6mm through .45 ACP or expensive shots but high damage and range with 5.45mmR through 12.7mm and maybe 20mm.
It might then get balanced.
Anyways, even if you do manage to blanket turrets, artillery, rockets and self propelled grenades/mortars would pound your defenses.
And also, I'm advocating for sidearms in addition which means a tec-9 to said melee fighters would either kill or it's going for additional balancing for melee shields.
Yes, I expect you to either preset your colonists to take a particular gun and ammo setting or equip them all personally. Makes for a good story, yes? The more detailed, the better. Within reason.
(Shhhhh... I even implied abstraction to calibers only, don't make it have the subtype distinction of things like .22 short - LR - ELR - hornet) Be kind.
Let's step aside for a moment and take a look at Rimworld's spiritual predecessor - Dwarf Fortress.
Bows & arrows. Blowguns & blowdarts. Crossbows & bolts. Quivers.
+1.
Quote from: Anduin1357 on May 12, 2015, 03:44:09 PM
How would it make the game any better?
This would add realism and SMGs for example would be better than now because have big clip but on another hand sniper rifles add huge dmg and have huge range but a small clip so in general this would add some extra differences between weapons and of course some strategy - no killboxes anymore (because ammo in turrets too).
Personally I feel like guns are too weak ATM and adding a "nerf" would break the balance between melee and long ranged weapons.
If guns did 10x damage I wouldn't mind seeing this though.
@Adamiks I was talking about other suggestions for the ammo mechanic.
The benefits of ammo was never in doubt.
@BetaSpectre It is not a nerf per se but a change in how guns work.
Obviously SMGs and PDWs will benefit most for base defense from being able to spam more rounds than the burst fire mechanic.
Snipers would be more expensive per shot on average but hey, so would HMGs and all that mounted heavies.
You could make individual shots deal more damage to certain enemies and stuff, so you could get a damage buff depending on ammo type.
sorry, but i'm gonna go with unlimited ammo. pouch types to augment the guns are fine, but having ammo is taking it a bit too far into the micromanagement level.
not to mention early raids would be a lot harder if not impossible.
Why would early raids be impossible when you get starting ammo plus the poor first raider's gun and ammo...?
It's not micro, it's macro until you decide to do something special.
Read the automated part.
Quote from: JimmyAgnt007 on May 12, 2015, 12:16:28 PM
personally i find mortar ammo tedious enough as it is. ammo for guns would be terrible for micromanaging. if we only controlled a single person then sure, but not when we can have a dozen or so.
that being said, an item like an 'ammo pouch' that a pawn can wear, would let them fire faster without any penalty. keeping it more abstract. though i wouldnt want to sacrifice the armor or any other clothing slot for it.
Or the slot shields go. Neither clothing, nor armor.
Edit: Further elaboration using a better method of input.
Why not just group such things like ammo pouches and utilities as part of an unending line of accessories that can mostly be worn without attire conflicts.
I have no idea why melee-fighter anti-ballistic shields are implemented since it breaks the concept of having a backup weapon as such with longsword w/ pistol as the shield might make the guy basically invincible. I'll leave it at that.
Ammo pouches could make for more magazine capacity and faster access to the pouch also means faster reloads and corollary higher volume of fire. There would always be a weight to ammunition though, causing your colonist with extra ammunition to suffer carry weight related stress and medical conditions... That being said though, 9mm is always lighter than 7.62mm
An incentive at last to give your non-combat colonists personal defense weapons instead of some assault rifles that totally would hamper their work speed and movement! :P
Turrets would require ammo... And if we crafted we would need gunpowder... The amount of different types of ammo, having to require a trader for it, the fact guns already can be less popular then melee weapons with all things considered... -1 no thank you.
XCOM +1
with a more versatile colonist inventory system, it might be great to be able to switch ammo types on the fly for colonists.
ammo can be infinite, but it would be cool to be able to easily switch between ammo types that are within a colonist's inventory.
ie : basic ammo types : (hopefully makes it to base game)
-normal rounds : default rounds
-switch to armor piercing rounds against mechs and raiders with power armor
-switch to hollow point rounds against tribals, animals, anyone with light or no armor
grenade launcher ammo types : (it's like being able to swap between grenades, molotovs, and emp grenades on the fly and increase their range )
-explosive rounds : default rounds
-incendiary rounds : causes fire
-emp rounds : stuns mechs
basically as long as you have these rounds in your colonist's inventory, they can swap ammo types by drafting them and pressing a hotkey or a button or something.
for balance issues, ammo types are rare and can only be bought from traders at a very expensive price.
Or we can nerf ammo types to have less of an effect relative to their caliber and for flexibility sake, have custom mags of ammo type ratios.
After all, you do not go all Hollow Point and no AP against armored raiders...
If ammo types are so easy to manufacture in demand, I dont see why the need to be expensive. Ammo can be brought and sold by the thousands at moderate cost, your average 100 rounds be costing 20 silver.
Support only for inventory mag switching.