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I'm splitting this off from the Suggestion & Discussion: Research System (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=10.0) thread.

Quote from: Zeiph on October 06, 2013, 01:22:22 PM
What as been said is generally interesting, but as DIY science is reproducing what as already been discovered, I'm more wondering about DIY industry like producing solar panels out of raw material...

So the first question is how detailed the game will be about tool building.  How detailed of a "tech tree" do you have to have, in order to build more detailed machines?  Which is really a question for Tynan to decide.

The Crash Pods would probably have tool kits, allowing you to build lower tech machines.  Hmm, maybe you would require a Forge or Machine Shop in order to build the next tier of machines, and on.  In order to build the really advanced stuff (like a spaceship), you would need to bootstrap your production capabilities.  Otherwise, it'd be like crashing your car on a road trip, and building a whole new car with a toolkit and scrap metal.

The game's fiction even offers us a chance for starting at a more rudimentary tech level, where even building up to solar panels would be regarded by the player as a success.

One of the ideas is also having to deal with rival tribes on the planet. Well, if we're forced to start at their tech level and have to bootstrap our industry up to the point where we can make firearms, we'd be using more of that range of technology.

I'm not necessarily hoping for an industry chain as involved as Gnomoria's (or Dwarf Fortress's, I guess), but the fiction gives room for it to be a possibility to start from so far back. Really, however we get the more things to build I think it can be executed well.

The manufacturing system, I feel, is something of a must. Yes, it could be explained away by giving Rimworlds fictional future toolkits comprised of "atomic-reassemblers" (or other such god-tech) that can convert basic material into most things; similar to how instead of food groups at the moment in the alpha we have one flat "Food" resource that is ground up into non-toxic paste with a machine, but I think that might cheapen the experience a bit.

[Note: There is a debuff present for colonists eating paste, this indicates that future expansion into real food is planned and the system expanded at the very least.]

I concur with the ideas of a tier-enabling building (anvil, forge, workshop, factory, automated assembly line, nanoreplicator compound, etc.) that opens up a new tier of products. It sounds pretty fun and Tynan has already stated that he likes the idea of interaction with tribe-esque factions so it should be fair to start on a similar tech-level to them, or perhaps they're slightly better than you in some respects and you can barter for their culture-specific secrets?

Something I'd be interested in seeing if it wouldn't add to the workload too much is the idea of "by-products" or run-off, manufacturing a certain number of times causes the tier-enabling building to spawn a by-product: whether it be dirty water, ash, poisonous compounds, nuclear waste, brown-matter, whatever lol.

You could put a Slave/Manual vs Automated industry twist on the whole thing as well, which leads to "manual" vs automated oppression. This would influence how you treat these Tribal factions. Mentor or Enslaver or something in the middle. "Colonization... Colonization never changes... Or Does it?"

Provoking thoughts. Though of course when you reach a certain level of tech even automated industry is slavery that may eventually cause your AI to go all Skynet on your colony.

Then again from a logical standpoint you'd have to find a pretty big pro to staying with manual labour rather than the more precise, faster, quality-controlled, less whiny automated labour.
Not to mention after reaching a certain tech level you have to go automated, it would be rather amusing to watch a colonist try and put together a nanoscale computer chip after all lol.

Which brings the concern of the usefulness of having colonists after a certain high-level of technological advancement...
If everything really is automated, then it's not a game anymore as long as we control only the colonists.
I suppose there is a limit to be drawn.

Something I'd like to see developed in the Alpha is an expansion from a one-resource based crafting system, e.g. just metal. To perhaps metals, mineral/stone, and organic material (reeds for woven carpet)?

Mineral/Stone is acquired through the common mining, metal is collected from debris and by smelting ore (mineral>metal conversion with not 100% amount), and organic material from cutting down flora and perhaps later harvesting more than food from dead animals?

[Reconsidered & Withdrawn]
Going over it again from an outside perspective it would detract from the game, also as stated below it runs the risk of becoming Minecraft-ish lol.

Yes, actually my initial though was to raise the point that not everything has to be self-explanatory. I mean at the end of the day rimworld is a game, and from what I saw of it (exploding rats), it doesn't take things seriously, and things can be explained by "magechnology"...

On the other side I would be very glad of having a quite wide range of possibilities, with a sort of construction tech tree, but maybe not to the point of a minecraft (yes I said it) building system (wood -> planks -> sticks -> ladders). I am more like having a special item ( like the said smelter, forge, some kind of automated assembly line and maybe nano-assembler) to unlock some part of the whole construction system. i.e: the smelter allows production of specific alloys, thus enabling the construction of better walls and the forge, which when built allows for constructing the next tier of items, and so on...

We have to go back to the initial tipping point that enabled Industry in the first place : profitability of mass producing. That came from cheap energy from coal and a reachable market big enough.

In RimWorld, currently there is neither : power is scarce and colony size don't ever get to 100 people. So there would never be the need to make up an costly and power-consuming assembly line only for 100 people. Remember it's a storytelling game, so everything that happens should serve the story at some point.

A few stranded colonists are starving => Food system
A few stranded colonists are attacked by raiders => Combat and defense
A few stranded colonists are unhappy when sleeping outside => Buildings
A few stranded colonists are unhappy when in darkness => Light and power system

What would start with "A few stranded colonists..." and end with " => Industry"?

Edit: Actually, I'll expand my answer to add my experience with the game Towns. It has some very basic item production chains, notably for food, and citizens are running back and forth to get supplies, make a semi-finished product and put it on the ground, and then someone else picks it up and another one to complete the product. If at first it's nice to see everything coming along well, after a while it gets boring that so many citizens are only producing food, it's not very interesting in a Single Player environment, there's no challenge, no story that goes with it.

Zelph's suggestion is more interesting, building a specific building once could unlock buildings possibility, and the loss of that building would prevent from building the previously-unlocked ones. There is novelty, and it can be part of a story, for example "The day the smelter blew while defending walls from raiders".

Yeah, I think I'd prefer to see a tier system that has steps to do more complicated things, but that is somewhat abstracted.  I would prefer, for example, a Forge required to make swords; but not the requirement to make a blade and hilt in order to make a sword.

Quote from: Spike on October 06, 2013, 07:18:15 PM
Yeah, I think I'd prefer to see a tier system that has steps to do more complicated things, but that is somewhat abstracted.  I would prefer, for example, a Forge required to make swords; but not the requirement to make a blade and hilt in order to make a sword.

I agree with this. If you take 'industry' out of the game then you just have something simple, and while I take into account this is a 'storytelling' game you still have to have gameplay. I mean RimWorld isn't Dear Esther, it's a different beast. It is the simulation of the story of a group of survivors/colonists on a planet, insomuch as it doesn't actually have a story. You're the story and if you don't have interesting elements to build upon then there is no story.

For example if a tiered industry system is implemented my colonist A goes out and gathers some metal to smelt down at a smelter. This produces a metal bar and that metal bar goes to the forge/smithy and it is made into ammo, tools, or weapons. That is as far as it has to go. I don't need a gunsmith that will makes the barrels, and a crafter that makes the stock, then an assembler who screws it all together. Now for the contra-example of no tiered system, colonist A takes the same metal resource and puts it in a machine that spits out a gun, tool, or other item. There is only a single link in this chain, therefore no tension can be made. The most tension or story building you'll get out of it is 'Oh, I am out of metal.'

Quote from: Nero on October 06, 2013, 07:43:53 PM
For example if a tiered industry system is implemented my colonist A goes out and gathers some metal to smelt down at a smelter. This produces a metal bar and that metal bar goes to the forge/smithy and it is made into ammo, tools, or weapons. That is as far as it has to go. I don't need a gunsmith that will makes the barrels, and a crafter that makes the stock, then an assembler who screws it all together. Now for the contra-example of no tiered system, colonist A takes the same metal resource and puts it in a machine that spits out a gun, tool, or other item. There is only a single link in this chain, therefore no tension can be made. The most tension or story building you'll get out of it is 'Oh, I am out of metal.'

I'd actually go in between that - you gather the metal, and need the smelter in order to do Tier 1 things, and the smelter and forge to do Tier 2 things.  There shouldn't be any need for the player to actually smelt the metal into the bar.

A simplified manufacturing system would be good, I think.  I wonder, though, how this would work without adding new resources to the game.  I have no problem with it, but from a design standpoint, who knows how much complexity it would add to change "metal" to "iron" and "silicon" and "gold" and other materials needed to make circuit boards and the like.  A foundry sort of  building for smelting the metal you find should be there, I think.  The problem with making a more complex manufacturing chain is that it probably gets exponentially more complex the more you add to it.

Like Nero and Spike said, a more abstracted system would probably be best.  A different workshop for different items makes sense.  For example: have a weapon manufactory, rather then having to collect saltpeter, sulfur, lead, iron, and copper to make gunpowder, bullets, and sidearms.

Well, if Ty wanted to differentiate RimWorld from Dwarf Fortress, he certainly could do so with an abstracted manufacturing system.

There's actually something to be said for just having to lay down an Artisan's Table that you use to place build orders for weapons and other things at (or, better, that automatically receives orders you make from another button). It frees up the building experience to where we're focusing not on building an industrial base (something that, in my experience, is rather unsatisfying),but instead on increasing our colonists' comfort and productivity.

Imagine. Rather than struggling to get a blacksmith up so we can make the tools we'll use to put together the heavy machinery we'll create the molds for our high-end stuff on, with a clear end goal in mind, we can forge a story around our more abstract decisions.

Do we irrigate our cropland with that energy or air condition the main hall? We can build a reclamation center that will get us more metal out of our mining, or we can build an entertainment complex. A truck would make hauling back metal much more efficient, but would cost us a lot of energy that we'd have to use to synthesize fuel for it.

Not a climb up a ladder, but decisions on how to use scarce resources. It's gameplay I find much more enjoyable, and it works much better if you're trying to use a simulation game to tell a story.

Quote from: GC13 on October 06, 2013, 02:03:18 PM
The game's fiction even offers us a chance for starting at a more rudimentary tech level, where even building up to solar panels would be regarded by the player as a success.

One of the ideas is also having to deal with rival tribes on the planet. Well, if we're forced to start at their tech level and have to bootstrap our industry up to the point where we can make firearms, we'd be using more of that range of technology.

I'm not necessarily hoping for an industry chain as involved as Gnomoria's (or Dwarf Fortress's, I guess), but the fiction gives room for it to be a possibility to start from so far back. Really, however we get the more things to build I think it can be executed well.

Personally, I would love this. This is one of the little touches that I think we're sort of missing for now. The base-building is amazing, but would be so much more gratifying if it didn't feel like there was a skipped step in there. Like, day 1 within a couple hours my colonists go from mats on the ground to an air-conditioned home. I really want to feel that hunt/gather stage. I want it to challenge my colonists and tie them together through adversity. I want to earn the good life.

Quote from: GC13 on October 06, 2013, 09:53:02 PM
Well, if Ty wanted to differentiate RimWorld from Dwarf Fortress, he certainly could do so with an abstracted manufacturing system.

I think this is the stutter right now in a lot of people's minds. I've read that Ty's intent was for this game to be DF in space (or the poster referenced a post on the Bay12 forums that said that), I'd have to go find the post that references it but I think it's in the Suggestions & Concerns thread. There is a schism there. There are the simulationist DF players that are here expecting something similar to that, then there is the people who say 'well this isn't DF, PA, FTL, etc.'. I'd like to see what Ty has to say about influence vs. actual possible implementation. Unless it has already been stated, then please someone link me up.

I found this concerning building options later on:
(http://i.imgur.com/pN6UhPg.png)

He, Tynan, has two explicit points about DF's influence on the main KickStarter page:

QuoteI've always thought the best part of games like Dwarf Fortress and The Sims was the stories that come out of them. That's why RimWorld is designed as a story generator. It's not about winning and losing - it's about the drama, tragedy, and comedy that goes on in your colony.

Which suggests what's he primarily interested in is the ability to make your own stories, of which DF and the Sims both excel.

Then he says this, more directly to the question:

QuoteIn terms of game design, the game draws most from the 800-pound gorilla of the simulation genre, Dwarf Fortress. We also take ideas from indie hits like FTL (our semi-random event format) and Prison Architect (its way of presenting a complex world in a comprehensible, interactive way). And, there are many others.

So yes, Dwarf Fortress is, indeed, meant to be an inspiration.

The thing that makes this an open question, though, is that he also wants to do his own thing rather than simply rip off of Dwarf Fortress. And frankly, I think you could make a great and detailed simulation that was more fun for the absence of production chains.

First off, how are the colonists building these structures and mining out rock without tools? So we have to accept that they possess tools like cutters, welders and the like, but can't be used as weapons? And this is stuff they crash landed in an escape pod with? And they know how to work this stuff?

Quote from: oasis789 on October 06, 2013, 11:40:01 PM
First off, how are the colonists building these structures and mining out rock without tools? So we have to accept that they possess tools like cutters, welders and the like, but can't be used as weapons? And this is stuff they crash landed in an escape pod with? And they know how to work this stuff?

In a game like this we simply can't go that in-depth with it in terms of rationale.
Even the serfs know how to work basic machinery and rock is currently not in the game, only metal (some types of which can be extracted out of rock ore using only two diodes and a high temperature to melt it down).

Well criminal elements would like you having slaves and all. And you can charge more for handmade firearms etc. Setting up a automated assembly line that is capable of retooling it self, seems like it should be pretty far into the game.

Quote from: Nero on October 06, 2013, 10:36:41 PM
I've read that Ty's intent was for this game to be DF in space (...)

DF is more of a reference than a goal.

To quote Tynan on Bay12 forums (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=131168.0):
"At the most basic level, this is Dwarf Fortress in space. There are a lot of differences in the details."

Like I said before, pushing the question of feasability (in term of realism) sometimes pushes the game in a wrong direction gameplaywise. I mean do we even question the fact the character punches tree in order to obtain wood in minecraft? no, because it's fun !

The same would be true for rimworld, I mean in real life if you were stranded on a moon:
1) you would be dead, because the low gravity of most moons doesn't allow for an atmosphere, and even so mostly not liveable
2) even if you survived the crash and the potential lack of oxygen, it would take weeks with DIY tools to dig a simple room in the rock
3) this game is driven by a story, do every narrator really get in the details on how everything works? will the player even question it if the whole game was based on some simplifications?

Then on that, adding some sort of tier availability system adds both to the gameplay and to the narration, as improving the possibilities of the colony is a challenge in itself and may provide the player with powerful tools for the continuation.

Quote from: Nero on October 06, 2013, 10:36:41 PMI think this is the stutter right now in a lot of people's minds. I've read that Ty's intent was for this game to be DF in space (or the poster referenced a post on the Bay12 forums that said that),

Twas I!

It's actually the title of the thread he made at the bay12 forums. That said, it's a thread in the DF forums, so some marketing spin might just have been used there ;)

Still, I'd like to see a clear position on this, particularly a clear list of productions or a production tree. This is the 1 thing holding me back currently from putting in money, though I guess Tynan's got all he needs and then some...

I think that "DF does it like this this is how it must be done here" is not a good argument to get anything into the game, but neither is "DF did this and this game is not trying to be DF so it can't do that". I would imagine, based on the current feel of the game (playthroughs), that it deserves a pseudo industry, but I don't know the right answer. A lot of things, like whether minerals turn to metal by mining or smelting, are quirks for Tynan to decide; we will adapt to it working either way. Guns, bullets and missiles might be exclusively bought/looted, they might require significant investments in gunsmithing and gunpowder/explosive synthesis, or they might all be made from metal at the workshop after a research is completed.
There needs to be a balancing and enforcing relationship in this game between the player doing things by himself like research, construction, and possibly industry, and the storyteller sending obstacles, assistance, and variety at the player for the experience to be complete. Too much of industry and the game risks loosing the story element; too much story and the game risks annoying and taking away the player's control.

Quote from: Jakadasnake on October 06, 2013, 10:25:05 PM

Quote from: GC13 on October 06, 2013, 02:03:18 PM
The game's fiction even offers us a chance for starting at a more rudimentary tech level, where even building up to solar panels would be regarded by the player as a success.

One of the ideas is also having to deal with rival tribes on the planet. Well, if we're forced to start at their tech level and have to bootstrap our industry up to the point where we can make firearms, we'd be using more of that range of technology.

I'm not necessarily hoping for an industry chain as involved as Gnomoria's (or Dwarf Fortress's, I guess), but the fiction gives room for it to be a possibility to start from so far back. Really, however we get the more things to build I think it can be executed well.

Personally, I would love this. This is one of the little touches that I think we're sort of missing for now. The base-building is amazing, but would be so much more gratifying if it didn't feel like there was a skipped step in there. Like, day 1 within a couple hours my colonists go from mats on the ground to an air-conditioned home. I really want to feel that hunt/gather stage. I want it to challenge my colonists and tie them together through adversity. I want to earn the good life.

I couldn't agree with this more. In watching a gameplay video, what hit me hardest in terms of the oversimplified production was that as soon as they landed they were able to throw together solar panels from a bit of scrap metal. I feel like power should need to be earned, and I really like the idea of having that sharp contrast of the high and low tech working together, which I think is massively important for the space western vibe. You need to prioritize what you need to be done in a high-tech way, and fill in the gaps with low tech. I envision myself using my first bit of rinky-dink salvaged tech on a generator to get the coms up - if people want light they can live with torches for now!

This would also make disastrous situations in the later game more interesting. If some part of the high-tech chain falls apart in a raid and the people who know how to work it well are dead, you will probably need to try to fill in the gaps with low-tech stuff to keep your people alive while a replacement is worked on. I think that could lead to some interesting dramatic tension.

EDIT: Another thing I thought to mention: in management/survival games, I feel it's an absolute must that everything be at least possible to be created by the player. While it is definitely nice to have some high-level stuff much more easily acquired from traders and the like (I'm hoping there will be plasma rifles! :D), it should always be available through your own resources, even if at the end of a grueling research tree. That, combined with the above ideas, really plays up the importance of how you choose to specialize (or not) - pushing for high-tech generation of specific goods to then supplement the rest with high-tech goods brought in through trade might mean more rapid advancement, but then you become dependent on the traders bringing the right goods. Alternatively, a self-sufficient, balanced approach would no doubt mean a more slow and steady advancement.

how about a crafter system?

-crafting bench
-resources = organic, metal, chemical
- each resource has a grade 1-8 representing tech level e.g. grade 6 metal = titanium, superalloys etc. while grade 1 organic represents bone, hide (leather grade 2) etc.
- each item in the game has a crafting cost which will have to be met to produce it
- the maximum points a person can produce is dependant on there: crafting skill, grade of materials used, ingredients and time.
- e.g. starting with level 10 crafter (which I know is impossible) you would be able to just be able to build some basic pre industrial age goods (would take a long time) with grade 1 goods. Oafs would have a skill limited at level 3 and would only be able to produce basic farming tools when you get mid grade materials.
- ingredients represent ('special' materials such as silicon for steel) involves going to an area and gathering (number of times this has to be done depends on crafting cost)
- the grade of goods can be upgraded (has crafting cost) but building certain buildings allows you to instantly upgrade grade 1 goods for a small cost e.g. syn gas plant to grade 5 (oaf can run it just not build it)

other stuff
- higher grade stuff is valuable pirates would try and steal it but can also sell it to traders
- stuff can be converted to materials early guns would probably be more valuable for the goods that can be made from their metal (gun or new surgical tools, water pump, gas lamp?)
- organics from animals or trees, metal from mining and chemical from doing both
-power sources decrease the cost e.g. connecting hydraulic pipes or power conduit to the table can take third of half off the cost
-research e.g. punch card, CAD, intelligent system decreases the cost

I like these ideas, and all the possibilities that could happen. I think that you could start to build small buildings like a basic machine shop, then growing in tech and knowledge (via research, capturing/interrogating people, learning from traders, ect.) you could build like a robot factory or something. This could be a skill that people could get and the better the skill rank the better the quality or quantity of the item your building. Also, i was thinking that you could have a way to build weapons. (you could make basic weapons in a machine shop, and then the more complex the weapon, you would have to build a higher tier building like to a blacksmith, then a gunsmith, ect.)  You could start off only knowing how to build a pistol, but by taking weapons from raiders and trading weapons you could learn to build those weapons that you get, and also maybe discover ways to make new weapons.

Quote from: GC13 on October 06, 2013, 02:03:18 PM
The game's fiction even offers us a chance for starting at a more rudimentary tech level, where even building up to solar panel (http://www.shinesolar.net) would be regarded by the player as a success.

One of the ideas is also having to deal with rival tribes on the planet. Well, if we're forced to start at their tech level and have to bootstrap our industry up to the point where we can make firearms, we'd be using more of that range of technology.

I'm not necessarily hoping for an industry chain as involved as Gnomoria's (or Dwarf Fortress's, I guess), but the fiction gives room for it to be a possibility to start from so far back. Really, however we get the more things to build I think it can be executed well.

I hope they are able to build panels from raw materials..In general these panels are bit expensive with little efficiency.

I think crafting/manufacturing could be split into roughly three categories:

• Utility Objects: chairs, tables, beds etc. To be honest this could stay as it is, made on the spot by any colonist. Not a lot of drama in making plant pots. Alternatively they could be created by an all-purpose 'fabricator', with the operator's crafting skill determining the speed of construction/quality.



• Trade Goods: anything from handicrafts to illegal VR chips. These should require a workstation and an assigned colonist. Workstation may as well be all-purpose, but limit craft options to the colonist's skill/background - a former pirate chemist could make drugs, a shipwright could produce repair parts, etc. Everyone can make 'handicrafts,' tho their value is tied to crafting skill - and perhaps secondary skills or backgrounds (a medieval oaf can stitch together a quaint harvest charm, while the glitterworld debutante fulfils her ambition to design a range of fashionable scarves)



• Infrastructure Projects: these should be special. Getting the geothermal generator going or the first hydroponics farm set up would be a big moment for a young colony, not just something Jane the Con Artist throws together on her way between cleaning blood off the driveway and filling up the 'tater hopper. Perhaps require an engineer to 'build' the blueprint using his construction skill, while someone else builds the parts at the fabricator, then the parts are hauled over, requiring multiple colonists. When everything's in place, the engineer gives it a once over then turns it on. And when it doesn't quite work as expected... well, the engineer hadn't slept in three days and the crafter watched his best friend get his face blown off the day before, and the hauler slipped on that driveway blood that nobody bothered to clean up and dropped the microcombobulator, so... who's fault is it really?

On a side note: it may be a mad dream, but I'd love to see important machinery get a bit of personality, even have pseudo-relationships with the colonists like Kaylee in the engine room in Firefly. I mean everyone's out in the middle of nowhere, if you do manage to scrape together a solar generator it's going to be on a wing and a prayer, and it's not going to last forever. When the old girl finally packs in and gets dismantled, think of the poor schlub who's been tightening her bolts and wiping her panels clean and putting the shades up when the damn thing overheats again for the tenth time this summer... well he's going to be a bit off his game. Who knows with everything else that's been happening, it just might just push him over the edge...

Robinson Crusoes building objects requiring specialized, 20th-century-and-beyond manufacturing bothered me, though I recognized it was required for gameplay purposes.

A solution that occurred to me was this: Components as resources.

Want to build a turret? Each one will require a "turret controller" (the computer, sensors, and servos as a kit), as well as metal and the desired weapon; the weapon and controller available from your friendly neighborhood Combat Supplier ship.

Solar array? You'll need the panels/cells from an industrial supplier. However, your standard escape pod's SHTF bag might just happen to include one when you make an emergency planetfall.

Nuclear reactor? You'll need a core for that.

Geothermal generator? Turbine/dynamo kit.

Battery? Nutrient paste dispenser? Ditto. The NP is another you might drop with a component for.

This gets around the problem of suspension of disbelief, while simultaneously making these more complex structures more valuable (i.e. you'll have more invested in protecting them). To buy a little leeway though, there could be a % chance of the essential component surviving, should the structure you used it to build suffer an unfortunate mishap.