Ludeon Forums

I discovered via Reddit that there is a new blog post today. Really big news, but there was no mention on the forum here, so just want to link it up.
http://ludeon.com/blog/2015/07/on-the-upcoming-steam-release/

Big news indeed! Although, I kind of guessed already, since I'm a tester.

He deserves it, not only has he created a wonderful game, hes also made it a modders paradise and managed to maintain a fantastic community around it all, I couldnt have more respect for someone ive never met. Gratz Tynan. (also if i ever make it to your neck of the woods, you ARE meeting me for a beer..:)..)

Also part of me really wants him to come back off his break and go "Time to add some more stuff to Rimworld" but part of me also wants to see what else "ludeon studios" is capable of.

Thank you very much skullywag :) I appreciate you testers' help as well, very much.

You really deserved all of this. Great news, and I'm really interested to see how the reviews will look like. There will probably not be much negative to say, the way you interact with the community is very open and it's foreseeable that this will give you plus points. :)

Im looking forward to the reviews, im imagining most of the negative ones will be about the things we on the forums find hilarious....OP Turtles anyone?

I have to agree, Tynan has created an awesome game and really deserves a rest.

i just hope that if the game is feature-wise now called "done" that we get some more content for the game. to be honest up till now the game was called alpha and in all intend & purposes is an alpha version. till now the dev developed more & more features for the game, almost entirely focusing on the feature aspect and the mods have filled the game with content. if you compare the amount of CONTENT (not features) compared to the mods all together (for example in the ultimate overhaul modpack) then the vanilla game has about 10-15% content compared to the mods. the problem there is that mods are great and so on, but they can / might get abandoned and are often conflicting with other mods and need some adjustments, that's why some modpacks modify some of them drastically.

one major point of the game was that in vanilla most of the games progression / content was unlocked from the start, i only played back then with the TTM mod and now with the overhaul modpack which includes superior crafting which cuts of the progression in more diverse techs. the game gets some real sense of progression with that. again, content and improved game design coming from the modding community which might or might not be abandoned at some point and most likely have some conflicts with other mods...cause mods are always based of the vanilla game.

i feel like that feature-wise the game might have a good enough amount of content, but it needs more content in terms of animals, factions, weapons (only 7 or 9 i think depending on the wiki) and it REALLY needs a better progression system.

i wish the dev best of luck with his decision and he deserves some rest but at this point i - personally - wouldn't call the game done with the current release.

EDIT: Also the game needs some heavy UI improvements, take a look at the EdB mods, they are practially essentiell to this game. call it beta and add some more content (art really, weapons, animals, etc.) or make a deal with some vanilla-friendly mod makers and intigrate their work into the game. i as a custome just want a well rounded game.....rimworld right now is a great sci-fi simulation game ENGINE, the mods make a well rounded game out of it. its more like mount & blade, just that M&B was more cohesive and well-rounded. don't get me wrong, the game doesn't need a bunch of new features, it has more than enough bones on it...just some more flesh and some ironing out of some smaller holes (progression & UI).

I truly hope Tynan does not release the game as Early Access, then take a 6 month break. Since he feels the game is done, then release it as Beta 1.0. The steam community will have a very negative reaction to the release, as EA, then no updates. Expectations of the new community must be considered. I would hate to see this wonderfully addictive game to get hundreds of negative reviews in the steam forums, which will kill the marketability of rimworld on steam.

Just my humble thoughts on the situation, and knowing just how vicious the steam community is when they think a EA game has been abandoned.

Even releasing it as a beta, people will still expect support, and updates, not 6 months of nothing.

I am actually most excited about the mod growth that will come from a steam release and a 6 month gap in updates that could possibly mess them up. More modders with more time to tinker!

And Tynan has changed his mind about the EA release.

Quote from: Matthiasagreen on July 01, 2015, 04:52:53 PM
And Tynan has changed his mind about the EA release.

Really? Is this posted somewhere? Reddit? Blog? Twitter? I want to see. That's noteworthy.

he mentioned it in the comments. "Just to follow up, based on a bunch of feedback I think I probably will just release it 1.0. It's ready for that. Nothing of substance about what I wrote originally would have changed - it's purely a labeling issue."

Quote from: Matthiasagreen on July 01, 2015, 05:06:53 PM
he mentioned it in the comments. "Just to follow up, based on a bunch of feedback I think I probably will just release it 1.0. It's ready for that. Nothing of substance about what I wrote originally would have changed - it's purely a labeling issue."

oh boy, lets hope this 1.0 release isn't this month...content, progression and UI improvements still needed. i don't wanna sound salty buy selling a game which has the greatness you see on youtube videos consists 80-85% of mods and 10-15% of the vanilla game content-wise is kinda risky.

I agree - content and UI need polishing and fleshing out. Someone said the features are good but the content is minimal - like there are plenty of bones (features) but it needs more flesh (content).

I really agree with that.

I also agree that EA then 6 month break was a risky idea, and I'm glad he's canned the EA part. He's only human so I can't begrudge the break at all.

add achievements to game on steam ?:D

Oh I'm still rather hoping the faction relations be improved before 1.0 :P
they're very bare right now
(but then maybe steam mite attract way more capable modders around! ooo)


Also! what Patry said!
Steam achievments =P [Feast on flesh 0/1000], that's human flesh, ofc

Quote from: Shinzy on July 01, 2015, 05:22:45 PM
Oh I'm still rather hoping the faction relations be improved before 1.0 :P
they're very bare right now
(but then maybe steam mite attract way more capable modders around! ooo)


Also! what Patry said!
Steam achievments =P [Feast on flesh 0/1000], that's human flesh, ofc

The title "I'm a humanitarian" is way better than "Feast on Flesh".

Quote from: Matthiasagreen on July 01, 2015, 05:06:53 PM
he mentioned it in the comments. "Just to follow up, based on a bunch of feedback I think I probably will just release it 1.0. It's ready for that. Nothing of substance about what I wrote originally would have changed - it's purely a labeling issue."

it is not a labeling issue, but meeting the expectations of the new community based upon the label. It is a very big deal if he wants to continue to be able to market he game, and make an income from it.

Quote from: Shinzy on July 01, 2015, 05:22:45 PM
Oh I'm still rather hoping the faction relations be improved before 1.0 :P
they're very bare right now
(but then maybe steam mite attract way more capable modders around! ooo)


Also! what Patry said!
Steam achievments =P [Feast on flesh 0/1000], that's human flesh, ofc

steam achievements are such a waste of programing time, add nothing to the game, but does give people bragging rights.... I guess some people need that outside stimulus.

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 05:24:46 PM

Quote from: Matthiasagreen on July 01, 2015, 05:06:53 PM
he mentioned it in the comments. "Just to follow up, based on a bunch of feedback I think I probably will just release it 1.0. It's ready for that. Nothing of substance about what I wrote originally would have changed - it's purely a labeling issue."

it is not a labeling issue, but meeting the expectations of the new community based upon the label. It is a very big deal if he wants to continue to be able to market he game, and make an income from it.

It's about choosing the label that sets the expectations that best match reality. The facts of the situation are the same either way - the question is just what to call it.

The entire reason why mod content conflicts is that it's impossible to predict what combinations of mods will be made once they're out there. No wonder modpack creators have their work cut out for them. :)

I'm not against Tynan adding more content down the line, but it's going to be a hell of an easier process once he's got fresh eyes on the case.

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 05:38:23 PM

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 05:24:46 PM

Quote from: Matthiasagreen on July 01, 2015, 05:06:53 PM
he mentioned it in the comments. "Just to follow up, based on a bunch of feedback I think I probably will just release it 1.0. It's ready for that. Nothing of substance about what I wrote originally would have changed - it's purely a labeling issue."

it is not a labeling issue, but meeting the expectations of the new community based upon the label. It is a very big deal if he wants to continue to be able to market he game, and make an income from it.

It's about choosing the label that sets the expectations that best match reality. The facts of the situation are the same either way - the question is just what to call it.

And there is the totality of marketing. the label is everything.

Quote from: Matthiasagreen on July 01, 2015, 04:52:53 PM
I am actually most excited about the mod growth that will come from a steam release and a 6 month gap in updates that could possibly mess them up. More modders with more time to tinker!

And Tynan has changed his mind about the EA release.

The only way there will be more modders, is if they purchase the game. and since the price is as much as a completed game, lots of people will be very skeptical. And why will they purchase the game knowing the developer is not going to be supporting or updating the game for at least 6 months? That does not satisfy the expectations of the gaming community for either an early access or a beta game. And to call this rimworld 1.0 is a huge stretch, when there is so little actual content.

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 05:57:55 PM
And there is the totality of marketing. the label is everything.

Indeed. I'd say it's a bit different from just 'marketing', though. Setting expectations is important. When people know what to expect, they won't feel let down when they don't get something else. Marketing can, sadly, often mean setting expectations as high as possible to grab dollars before those expectations are ultimately violated. I really never want to do that which is why I try to just tell people everything and let them make their decision on whether they want to buy the game or not.

In this case, I've told people everything in that blog post, which I thought would be enough. But reconsidering it and thinking about how people really are (especially in mass markets like Steam), I think a lot of people won't really absorb all that info. They'll see "Early Access" and make a bunch of assumptions and get pissed off when those assumptions are violated. It wouldn't really be my fault since I made future plans clear in the blog, but the assumption-driven anger would be there regardless, players would suffer, and I'd suffer some backlash. That's why I'm thankful people reminded me of this. Help me interact with the Steam market the way it is, instead of the way I wish it would be.

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 06:06:59 PM
there is so little actual content.

Lots of people play dozens of hours of RimWorld. How much 'actual content' would be considered a normal amount in your mind? I hate to be frank but I think you're kind of being unreasonable here. Demanding I hit Dwarf Fortress-level content volumes just isn't reasonable. Calling a game where players regularly do 15-100 hours of play "so little content" just isn't reasonable. "So little content" would more accurately describe how the game was back around Alpha 1, where you could do everything in like 3-4 hours.

I think vanilla A11 is worth every penny and more, I've gotten many more quality hours out of it than plenty of AAA titles. Labelling as 1.0 does seem prudent given the Steam community. Very excited for what 6 months of stability and a larger player base may do for modding.

Congratulations and enjoy the well deserved break!

I have to agree that it is worth the price for the content in the current version, but where it really shines for me is the modding support.

I think it might it be a good idea to soft launch version 1.0 in the same way as the previous Alphas and have the steam release slightly later on. Release on the website and send out the emails, stating that if everything goes right this will be 1.0. Then put the official launch on steam week or two later.

The potential advantages being:
1. You have two weeks of testing and feedback from the entire current playerbase before the official Steam release
2. Mod makers can use that time to update their mods to 1.0, so that at the official steam release there will be a number of mods ready to go, and the advantage of mod support is more likely to reflect positively on the initial reviews and player impressions.

Quote from: Jaxxa on July 01, 2015, 07:34:11 PM
I have to agree that it is worth the price for the content in the current version, but where it really shines for me is the modding support.

I think it might it be a good idea to soft launch version 1.0 in the same way as the previous Alphas and have the steam release slightly later on. Release on the website and send out the emails, stating that if everything goes right this will be 1.0. Then put the official launch on steam week or two later.

The potential advantages being:
1. You have two weeks of testing and feedback from the entire current playerbase before the official Steam release
2. Mod makers can use that time to update their mods to 1.0, so that at the official steam release there will be a number of mods ready to go, and the advantage of mod support is more likely to reflect positively on the initial reviews and player impressions.

I especially like #2. Please consider this Tynan, for the good of RimWorld :) it doesn't ask anymore development from you, just a little patience.

As much as I completely understand the need to take a break, as anyone who's followed the development would I believe, I think the idea that a game is "complete" when "you get x hours out of it" is just plain depressing in general.

I hope we see things like animal husbandry, void gods and generally more events to get trolled with before the towel is officially thrown.

Mods are really a bad substitute for more vanilla content as most modmakers care very little for consistency/balance and how things generally fit into the game or not, at best they tend to have a much lower expectation for quality.

I also think the game right now has an acceptable level of content and features, but why settle for "GOOD" when you can blow people's minds with just an additional layer or two? Either way, it's been fun. Hope Tynan gets motivated to push it a little further eventually.

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 06:11:18 PM
In this case, I've told people everything in that blog post, which I thought would be enough.

I think it will be noticed. I still saw a lot of differences when comparing early access games on steam and usually, when the devs were genuinely trying to create a game not only for money but for the community, and the game was also updated and worked on professionally, the steam reviews looked exceptionally. Just looking at Kerbal Space program and Prison architect. These two dev teams really give ("gave" since KSP finally left early access) the impression that they want to appeal to the community and are genuinely trying to create something for the community. There were almost no harsh steam reviews.

Quote from: Noobshock on July 01, 2015, 08:04:26 PM
I think the idea that a game is "complete" when "you get x hours out of it" is just plain depressing in general.

I agree here. I wouldn't use hours of gameplay as a measure of "complete". For "complete" I'd look at: have promises been fulfilled? Are there design holes?

When I spoke of hours of gameplay I was really referring to the idea that the game is deficient in its volume of content. Measuring volume of content by the hours of entertainment it produces seems reasonable to me. It's a separate but related question from completeness to me.

Quote
I hope we see things like animal husbandry, void gods and generally more events to get trolled with before the towel is officially thrown.

Hey, I never said I'd never work on it again :) In fact there's a real good chance I'll add more content, in one way or another.

Quote
I also think the game right now has an acceptable level of content and features, but why settle for "GOOD" when you can blow people's minds with just an additional layer or two?

The future is long; this doesn't have to be the end of the story. There's always room for content updates, expansions (free or paid), and sequels. No need to have it all trapped in a single game IMO.

Quote from: Skissor on July 01, 2015, 08:19:57 PM

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 06:11:18 PM
In this case, I've told people everything in that blog post, which I thought would be enough.

I think it will be noticed. I still saw a lot of differences when comparing early access games on steam and usually, when the devs were genuinely trying to create a game not only for money but for the community, and the game was also updated and worked on professionally, the steam reviews looked exceptionally. Just looking at Kerbal Space program and Prison architect. These two dev teams really give ("gave" since KSP finally left early access) the impression that they want to appeal to the community and are genuinely trying to create something for the community. There were almost no harsh steam reviews.

I agree, those guys are awesome examples to follow. If I was physically going to be here I almost certainly would be doing that.

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 06:06:59 PM
The only way there will be more modders, is if they purchase the game. and since the price is as much as a completed game, lots of people will be very skeptical. And why will they purchase the game knowing the developer is not going to be supporting or updating the game for at least 6 months? That does not satisfy the expectations of the gaming community for either an early access or a beta game. And to call this rimworld 1.0 is a huge stretch, when there is so little actual content.

Something that has been holding back the modding though is the knowledge that in four to six weeks, your mod might become an error-vomiting pile of junk. So, just the existing modders and some that have been waiting for a break will be able to produce an insane amount of mods in six months. I know I've got plans. :)

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 06:14:02 PM

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 06:06:59 PM
there is so little actual content.

Lots of people play dozens of hours of RimWorld. How much 'actual content' would be considered a normal amount in your mind? I hate to be frank but I think you're kind of being unreasonable here. Demanding I hit Dwarf Fortress-level content volumes just isn't reasonable. Calling a game where players regularly do 15-100 hours of play "so little content" just isn't reasonable. "So little content" would more accurately describe how the game was back around Alpha 1, where you could do everything in like 3-4 hours.

Again, you are not thinking about the expectations of the community you are releasing too.

there is already a post from a new person here in this forum wondering about the tech tree, being completed so quickly. There will be many more of those from the steam community...

there is very limited interaction available with the other factions, or the visitors, it is not finished in that area.

Yes there is a lot of content for the first 4 to 5 hours of game play, then nothing.... At the alpha level, we the players will overlook many shortcomings, as we knew that was what we were buying. You have stated you feel the game is "done".  That word alone scares me, as the game is not polished, or a complete game. It is a great starting platform, as the modding community has shown. That is why I say content is limited.

After the short research tree is done, there is no middle game mechanics to drive the player. 

Interactions with the other 5 factions are limited to fight or ignore.

I appreciate your honesty in the blog post, and your interaction here.... but the mass market will not care about all that. They do care about content. And 99% of them will never realize all the effort that went into the combat system, and will complain about the difficulties of managing a battle.

I have tried to played dwarf fortress, can't stand the interface (lack of) and will never compare the two. Not a realistic comparison.

Have to keep in mind, that the community here is here because we enjoy the game. I have received great value out of the game, and I do overlook small irritations, bugs, and having to go to a mod to have a useable interface to interact with the individual colonist.

I hope you enjoy the rest of the year off, as I understand the burnout, and needing time away. The mass market of steam will not be so understanding.

Quote from: MarvinKosh on July 01, 2015, 08:36:36 PM

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 06:06:59 PM
The only way there will be more modders, is if they purchase the game. and since the price is as much as a completed game, lots of people will be very skeptical. And why will they purchase the game knowing the developer is not going to be supporting or updating the game for at least 6 months? That does not satisfy the expectations of the gaming community for either an early access or a beta game. And to call this rimworld 1.0 is a huge stretch, when there is so little actual content.

Something that has been holding back the modding though is the knowledge that in four to six weeks, your mod might become an error-vomiting pile of junk. So, just the existing modders and some that have been waiting for a break will be able to produce an insane amount of mods in six months. I know I've got plans. :)

That is not an increase of modders though, just fanatics that will release the mods they have been planning, and wanting to do. It will result in some new mods, but mods are always a hit and miss, if they are stable, and will work with other mods.

TLHeart, which games in this genre would you say have a satisfactory amount of content? Just curious what you think the reference point will be.

You can equivocate over whether the game has remaining design holes (I don't think it does), but I think the statement that there is insufficient structural support for long term gameplay is true. There are a lot of areas that appear in the game but don't have any significant substance to them and I think this is the last remaining area that needs to be addressed before the game can be called feature complete (whatever that means).

For example;
Faction relationships that go beyond red or green numbers
A research/social policy system that contains proper progression/consequences
Deeper colonist-colonist interaction

These are obviously just pulled from thin air, but the greatest issue I have with the game currently is that most of the content is compacted. Needing to set up a temperature controlled area, establishing a food supply, building housing, setting up defenses all happen quite early and I'd like to see some overarching systems that drive the game forward/create emergent gameplay after that.

Either way, I've had fun playing and streaming the game and have gotten sufficient entertainment out of it :)
All the best for the future!

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 06:14:02 PM

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 06:06:59 PM
there is so little actual content.

Lots of people play dozens of hours of RimWorld. How much 'actual content' would be considered a normal amount in your mind? I hate to be frank but I think you're kind of being unreasonable here. Demanding I hit Dwarf Fortress-level content volumes just isn't reasonable. Calling a game where players regularly do 15-100 hours of play "so little content" just isn't reasonable. "So little content" would more accurately describe how the game was back around Alpha 1, where you could do everything in like 3-4 hours.

i hate to burst your bubble but people play so much hours of the game WITH mods, rarely i see a vanilla gameplay video of this game. they don't just play a modded version because they want a purple unicorn in their game. they play the modded version because they fill the game with content (more factions, more apparell, more weapons, better UI, more features, etc.). rimworld is a "ok" game and a GREAT game engine in terms of modding support. but the mods make the game great. the vanilla version lacks content, not features but items, polish (UI and game progress) etc.

just look at a recent post about "Technological standstill", there u even recommended mods. ur game is great combined with mods...but if one or some more mod makers stop doing their work it will fall hard.

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 09:05:30 PM
TLHeart, which games in this genre would you say have a satisfactory amount of content? Just curious what you think the reference point will be.

Banished and don't starve if you are releasing as rimworld 1.0. Both of which are $19.99.

Banished does not have the combat, but it does have a complete trading system. And I purchased it for $7.99 on sale.

Don't Starve, and Don't Starve DLC Reign of Giants I purchased for $14.99 on sale.

Dont starve has a  complete tech tree, as the game progresses, you need further tech to make new items. There are tuff battles with great rewards also( unique Items)

Xerberus - I expect mods will always be way ahead of me. I can't ever match the output of dozens of modders. I'm glad that people mostly play with mods! And I think that would be the case even if I worked on RW for another decade. The modders will always be ahead of me no matter what I do.

TL - I'll take the Banished comparison. Banished has slightly more complex trading; RW has biomes, factions, combat, traits, skills, art, individual orders, deeper medical modeling, and an endgame. Being honest, I think RW holds up well here. (I couldn't compare Don't Starve; it looks like it's in another genre and I'm not that familiar with it.)

Another option is to just not release on Steam this summer and delay until, say, some time in 2016.

I'm now considering this and would love to hear any thoughts on it. I'll be adding more stuff to the game either way on pretty much the same schedule; it's just about timing and presenting the Steam release the right way.

EDIT: Another path would be to just work through this summer, put out another alpha or two, and place the game on Steam EA right when I return in March next year. Then I can do further updates for a while and a final release at a later time.

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 09:52:38 PM
Xerberus - I expect mods will always be way ahead of me. I can't ever match the output of dozens of modders. I'm glad that people mostly play with mods! And I think that would be the case even if I worked on RW for another decade. The modders will always be ahead of me no matter what I do.

TL - I'll take the Banished comparison. Banished has slightly more complex trading; RW has biomes, factions, combat, traits, skills, art, individual orders, deeper medical modeling, and an endgame. Being honest, I think RW holds up well here. (I couldn't compare Don't Starve; it looks like it's in another genre and I'm not that familiar with it.)

Don't Starve still is a survival game where you need to collect resources, take care of your character needs (hunger, sanity and temperature), build a base and defend yourself. It's just less tactic. There's even an upcoming DLC that adds multiplayer, Don't Starve Together, and well, I have it for free because I bought the game a long time ago. :p

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 09:40:56 PM

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 09:05:30 PM
TLHeart, which games in this genre would you say have a satisfactory amount of content? Just curious what you think the reference point will be.

Banished and don't starve if you are releasing as rimworld 1.0. Both of which are $19.99.

Banished does not have the combat, but it does have a complete trading system. And I purchased it for $7.99 on sale.

Don't Starve, and Don't Starve DLC Reign of Giants I purchased for $14.99 on sale.

Dont starve has a  complete tech tree, as the game progresses, you need further tech to make new items. There are tuff battles with great rewards also( unique Items)

Personally I love Banished - with the Colonial Charter mod. I find the vanilla gameplay quite stale after about 10 hours, but enjoyed much more after adding mods. I find the current version of vanilla RimWorld more compelling than vanilla Banished, although that is partly due to very different personalities and opportunity for emergent gameplay across the two. Both games are hugely better with mods, which is a credit to their design and communities.

I think that the strong point of RimWorld is how well it expands with mods. It's not the same genre as Minecraft, but Minecraft is another example of a game which has many mods and expands its content repertoire with mods.

It's also able to reach a lot of players (and modders) with translations.

I think one of the things that was really great about A11 is that Tynan added a generic CreateMapCondition - effectively, if you can define a map condition in the code, you can trigger it with that. That allowed me to mod really harsh versions of map conditions with a little bit of copy-pasting. It's little advances like that which make the game more accessible to modding. :)

Why not release it to steam as 1.0 in the very near future, after paying some TLC to the UI, and maybe some final tweaks/bugfixes.

But then work on relationships/politics (or really whatever additional systems are wanted)

And release a paid expansion pack. Cause, let's face it, the game everyone wants is too big for a $30 one-off.

I've played Banished myself and have enjoyed it. Also considering that it was supposedly all done by 1 single guy working on it, the level of content it has is pretty impressive. Overall, while it is fundamentally different from Rimworld, it is technically similar as well. The main difference being an accelerated timeframe and RW having an actual end game if we were to choose it. Banished is basically never-ending.

The timeframe is what actually differentiates the gameplay as well as content level of both Banished and RW. Time passes very quickly in Banished and we get the sense of having to juggle population birth/death cycles. This is something that RW doesn't have (though technically the recruiting of prisoners is somewhat similar perhaps). RW has other things going for it in combat, factions, and individual peon character skills/traits.

That said, Banished is considered a finished game and RW is still in development. Also, vanilla RW is fun and playable but definitely, in order to have an even more enjoyable experience, playing with mods is the way to go. So much so that I find that without mods now, I don't really want to dive into a new build till some mods have been updated. However, despite the rather steep pricing of RW, I definitely don't regret buying it.

And as for steam integration itself, I would definitely welcome it as it allows the game to be updated automatically. However, it would be good if we are also given the option of rolling back to previous builds (similar to how 7 Days to Die does it). This would allow us to play stable builds with workable mods while waiting for any hotfixes or major mods to be thrown in.

This was also posted as a reply to the blog post, but I would like to cover my bases and post it here also:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I have mixed feelings here, but it's mostly because I don't agree that all of the holes have been plugged yet. Namely, I think there's one more important area that hasn't been covered, and that's in the number of unique events. Most of the alphas have introduced core mechanic changes that did keep the game fresh, but in terms of variety of what can happen, I still find the game quite lacking. You might say that's nitpicking, but please try to understand where I'm coming from.

For a game that calls itself a storytelling engine, variety and replayability are extremely important, yet the same basic game progression is present in the game regardless of how you start out: Biome differences might change your initial priorities, but in the overall view temperature control and growing schedules are a small (if important) part of the game. In such a situation with a generally similar progression, a considerable number of unique events is important to keep the game fresh. Tynan himself has admitted that the late-game still needs work (which I view as evidence of a lack of content); whether he has changed his mind, I don't know. (I hope not.)

Sure, you could say that's there's a lot of content available via modding, and I do applaud Tynan on his support of the modding community, but major core elements of the game should not be required to obtain through modding. It's the difference between considering a game finished and unfinished. However, at this point you may ask, "at what point is it enough"? How many events does the game need in order for there to be enough combinations to keep the game fun to replay for a long time? (I'm talking about "legitimate", game-promoted replayability- not player self-impositions that create an "artificial" replayability.) That, I cannot say for certain. I can say that once the core foundation for the game is laid in terms of mechanics, the more events that could be added, the better. This is the all-important "content". It's what makes the storytelling engine able to generate a variety of unique stories!

I am not arguing that Tynan hasn't worked hard, or that he hasn't treated his community properly. On the contrary, his interaction with the community is stellar, a somewhat rare occurrence even amongst indie developers. If anything, I might suggest that he's worked himself too hard, which might be partly why he's burning out right now. Even if you love something, working at it incessantly will eventually tire anyone- and to be honest I'm surprised that he didn't burn out sooner than this.

Speculation on that matter isn't the point here, though. Again, my point is not to criticize Tynan. It is to criticize the notion that the game has enough content to be called complete. What's the point in setting a foundation, even a foundation of masterwork quality, if you don't build anything upon it? That is why I am disappointed with this announcement. I just can't bring myself to think a game can be called complete when you've merely (not used in a derogatory sense, mind you) completed the core mechanics.

Tynan may come back to add more content. That's great, but to present it as something "more than we were promised" seems like quite a stretch to me, and to be honest it leaves a bit of a bitter taste in my mouth. Yet, we're placed in this position of "but Tynan has worked so hard- how can you be so ungrateful?" which, in my opinion, is unfair to consumers (speaking perhaps only for myself, but also possibly for others not brave enough to speak up) who rightfully expected more content than we were given. (I would like to emphasize again how important content is in the context of a storytelling engine. This should have been presented as a strategy/management game if mechanics were to be the primary focus.)

I do acknowledge that I took on a risk in buying the game while it was still in development, but I don't think this exempts Ludeon Studios from what I believe to be legitimate expectations. Should I, the consumer, be held responsible or vilified through the circumstances if the developer burns out on development, and I am not satisfied with the result? Is that not the developer's responsibility all the same?

I would like to note that I am not so displeased that I would even imagine to ask for a refund, or anything like that. Even in what I consider a pre-finished state, I have spent a considerable amount of time playing the game, to the point my conscience simply would not allow such a thought to cross my mind, so please don't let this post's intentions be misunderstood. However, in a near-unanimous (if not completely unanimous) cry of praise and support, I felt rather alienated and underrepresented in my feelings toward this. I have tried to express my disappointment as politely and gratefully as possible, but all the same, I am disappointed, and I wanted to express that.

In any case, I would like to congratulate Tynan on the work he has done so far, and I am happy that he will allow himself a decent break. It certainly sounds like he needs one.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Other users here have brought up additional points, such as how the faction system feels relatively shallow and the research progression is too fast, but to be honest I feel like these could be considered more on the mechanics side, which isn't my primary concern even if I do agree that these areas could be improved.

Some of the posts in this thread seem more in line with my feelings. They weren't as present in the blog post comments.

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 05:38:23 PM

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 05:24:46 PM

Quote from: Matthiasagreen on July 01, 2015, 05:06:53 PM
he mentioned it in the comments. "Just to follow up, based on a bunch of feedback I think I probably will just release it 1.0. It's ready for that. Nothing of substance about what I wrote originally would have changed - it's purely a labeling issue."

it is not a labeling issue, but meeting the expectations of the new community based upon the label. It is a very big deal if he wants to continue to be able to market he game, and make an income from it.

It's about choosing the label that sets the expectations that best match reality. The facts of the situation are the same either way - the question is just what to call it.

Just my thoughts, but releasing as Alpha state game would get you a good community of buyers and new ideas and such right off the bat, considering there isn't a whole heck of a lot of content to the game right now.  I mean, sure, you can play through a few times, lose a lot, finish once finally, same generic style on each biome you play on with slight tweaks, but eventually the person may get bored.  The whole reason people play so much right now is the mods, many of these mods that are in the community are required by many people to play, including me, I have a few mods that are absolute required for me to enjoy the game much more than the basic.  I only play without mods to test new builds and report bugs.

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 06:14:02 PM

Quote from: TLHeart on July 01, 2015, 06:06:59 PM
there is so little actual content.

Lots of people play dozens of hours of RimWorld. How much 'actual content' would be considered a normal amount in your mind? I hate to be frank but I think you're kind of being unreasonable here. Demanding I hit Dwarf Fortress-level content volumes just isn't reasonable. Calling a game where players regularly do 15-100 hours of play "so little content" just isn't reasonable. "So little content" would more accurately describe how the game was back around Alpha 1, where you could do everything in like 3-4 hours.

Yea, "so little" content may be an understatement right now.  People tend to see this because of the large amount of mods that are out right now and they add like 10 mods and see 10 times more content based on that.  To be honest, some of the mods out there should be core default things in the game. [1] (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=7454.0) [2*] (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=14135.0) [3*] (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=13400.0) [More]
However, in the core game alone, it does feel a little more empty than it should be.  Less features than I'd like, lots of room for improvements, you will likely be flooded with requests for features that have already been requested in the past hundreds of times.  Such as making it possible to change all hydroponics that are selected to a specific plant type which is a pretty big annoyance considering you always select the plant first, then click again to select hydro, then select grow, then select a plant, and repeat 30 more times for a large colony, generally hating hydroponics because of this.  I've got 29 detailed suggestion posts around the suggestion board myself, I'm sure there are others who feel that certain things should be core parts of the game too prior to a full release.

I'm not saying don't release on steam as a full release, I'm just saying consider alpha mode for a bit.  I don't think it hurts the game at all, considering people b---- and moan about alpha games all the time and yet STILL get them.  Then your game will be listed on the front page again once it hits full release and exits Alpha.

Also I'd love to see achievements in the game, especially for those that are private testers and such.  :P  Might need to make a forum login script in game to verify your account to get the achievement.  I dunno, just a random thought thrown out there.

Quote from: Euzio on July 01, 2015, 11:58:13 PM
I've played Banished myself and have enjoyed it. Also considering that it was supposedly all done by 1 single guy working on it, the level of content it has is pretty impressive. Overall, while it is fundamentally different from Rimworld, it is technically similar as well. The main difference being an accelerated timeframe and RW having an actual end game if we were to choose it. Banished is basically never-ending.

That said, Banished is considered a finished game and RW is still in development. Also, vanilla RW is fun and playable but definitely, in order to have an even more enjoyable experience, playing with mods is the way to go. So much so that I find that without mods now, I don't really want to dive into a new build till some mods have been updated. However, despite the rather steep pricing of RW, I definitely don't regret buying it.

Don't forget that Banished is an abandon game, the developer abandoned the unfinished game and left it as "released" so he wouldn't have to refund anyone.  I've played it too and while it's playable, it lacks so very much and makes no sense in most areas and is generally boring, it's no where near as good as the video that got me to buy it way back when it went on steam sale.  I'm generally sick of Developers abandoning their games (Like 4 others I have).  I am 99% sure that Tynan won't do that though.

I do agree on mod play, as you can see earlier in my post.  Playing without mods just gets a bit boring for me.  The same standard tactic is what I do each and every time no matter the biome I play in.  The price is questionable for this level of content, but it would be worth it, knowing that the game isn't abandon and will continue to be updated and new content will be added, plus the fact that there are some great mods out there, some of which I wish would be put in core game before release but, I guess that won't happen now that it is being released.  :P

I didn't realize mods were so important to so many of you, actually. As I said before, though, I think that would always be the case even if I worked for 10 more years, just because modders will always vastly outnumber me. I can't compete with that amount of sheer manpower. So the fact that mods add a ton to the game doesn't lead to the conclusion that the base game is unfinished. I mean, I played Half-Life mods for years after finishing with the base game in a month or two. But Half-Life base game was a finished game.

Quote from: SSSstuff

Hi SSS, thanks for the thought-out reply. In response I want to start by noting that I have always said exactly what I said in this post: nobody should buy this (or any) game based on guesses of what it might eventually become. Buy it (or don't) for what it is today.
If you purchased RW while it was in a state that you did *not* feel was worth purchasing, based on your own personal guesses of what it might become, you were taking a big risk – one I've always advised against.

I'm happy to fulfil my promises (in fact usually I try to over-fulfil them). That's my obligation. But I can't be obligated to do years of work that I explicitly did *not* promise, because other people assumed/hoped/guessed I would. That kind of un-agreed-upon, external obligation just isn't cool. As a creator I have to have the choice of what to promise, just as the consumer has the choice of what to buy.

That said – RW is a fun project and I agree with you that there's lots of room to grow. So I'll most likely do more work on it at some point. But that will just be a fun bonus. As I've always said: if the game isn't satisfactory to you as it is now, just wait on it! I'm happy to have anyone as a customer now or later. And if the game never becomes what you want, you'll never buy it. Disappointment averted, everyone wins!

Quote from: Vasstuff

Who says Banished was abandoned? I followed that development and that never seemed to be the case at all. Where does this come from?

It's kind of worrying because it honestly looks like people just make these myths up and start saying them over and over regardless of the facts or what the dev said before release.

Don't worry Tynan. While mods have become a big part of how we play RW. Ultimately, its still an add-on. RW is definitely playable without any mods. In fact, I would encourage any new players to have at least 1 playthrough without any mods to get a feel for the game. Its what I did myself when I first got the game. Mods ultimately, for the most part, actually make the game slightly easier in a sense.

Also, I've never heard of Banished being released unfinished. The base game itself is finished as far as I know. If you're talking about updates and maybe further balancing tweaks, then its definitely not being continued as far as I know. I haven't kept myself up to date with Banished for quite awhile mainly because RW has been occupying the majority of my gaming time. :)

Since Alpha 1 I have seen Rimworld change and become better over time into what it is today. Thank You Tynan for making this my FAVORITE game. :D

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 12:38:15 AM

Quote from: SSSstuff

Hi SSS, thanks for the thought-out reply. In response I want to start by noting that I have always said exactly what I said in this post: nobody should buy this (or any) game based on guesses of what it might eventually become. Buy it (or don't) for what it is today.
If you purchased RW while it was in a state that you did *not* feel was worth purchasing, based on your own personal guesses of what it might become, you were taking a big risk – one I've always advised against.

I'm happy to fulfil my promises (in fact usually I try to over-fulfil them). That's my obligation. But I can't be obligated to do years of work that I explicitly did *not* promise, because other people assumed/hoped/guessed I would. That kind of un-agreed-upon, external obligation just isn't cool. As a creator I have to have the choice of what to promise, just as the consumer has the choice of what to buy.

That said – RW is a fun project and I agree with you that there's lots of room to grow. So I'll most likely do more work on it at some point. But that will just be a fun bonus. As I've always said: if the game isn't satisfactory to you as it is now, just wait on it! I'm happy to have anyone as a customer now or later. And if the game never becomes what you want, you'll never buy it. Disappointment averted, everyone wins!

The caveat here is that I wouldn't recommend Rimworld to anyone else at the current price point, particularly if they were drawn by the description "storytelling engine". You can distance yourself by pointing out that you never explicitly promised additional content, but that the game is in an alpha state should and does imply to most that a good deal of additional content is to be added. Again, it is true that this relies on consumer assumption, and the fault can be laid on the consumer in the strictest sense, but I also feel it breaks the sense of trust that has been present until now. No true sense of how much content would be in the game when it was finished was ever established, meaning consumers had to make some degree of assumption. To then take that necessity of assumption and say it's the consumer's fault for making any assumption in the first place is unfair in my opinion.

I am not trying to pressure you to add more content to the game right now. All I am saying is that you didn't present the game fairly. The necessity of assumptions when no idea was given of what the completed product would look like, combined with the idea that you shouldn't buy on assumptions, basically equivalents to you saying that nobody should have bought your game since you didn't set any measure of expectation.

If that's how it is, I suppose I have no more to say. By your own words, I should have judged the situation better, and I agree.

QuoteNo true sense of how much content would be in the game when it was finished was ever established, meaning consumers had to make some degree of assumption

Ok, well I agree with the first part of this, however the second part just isn't true. No assumptions about the future need to be made at all. The consumer's best advice is to look at a product as it is today and decide if they want that. If they don't want what's right there in front of them, don't buy. No assumptions needed.

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 01:09:06 AM

QuoteNo true sense of how much content would be in the game when it was finished was ever established, meaning consumers had to make some degree of assumption

Ok, well I agree with the first part of this, however the second part just isn't true. No assumptions about the future need to be made at all. The consumer's best advice is to look at a product as it is today and decide if they want that. If they don't want what's right there in front of them, don't buy. No assumptions needed.

This is being marketed as an alpha release of a game, not a complete game. There is inherent implication in the nature of being marketed as an "alpha release". That is the difference.

If this were being marketed as a complete game already, then I would agree.

Quote from: SSS on July 02, 2015, 01:11:01 AM

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 01:09:06 AM

QuoteNo true sense of how much content would be in the game when it was finished was ever established, meaning consumers had to make some degree of assumption

Ok, well I agree with the first part of this, however the second part just isn't true. No assumptions about the future need to be made at all. The consumer's best advice is to look at a product as it is today and decide if they want that. If they don't want what's right there in front of them, don't buy. No assumptions needed.

This is being marketed as an alpha release of a game, not a complete game. That is the difference.

If this were being marketed as a complete game already, then I would agree.

Ok. Well we can agree to disagree on this specific point. In any case, I appreciate the thoughts.

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 12:38:15 AM

Quote from: VasGood Stuff!

Who says Banished was abandoned? I followed that development and that never seemed to be the case at all. Where does this come from?

It's kind of worrying because it honestly looks like people just make these myths up and start saying them over and over regardless of the facts or what the dev said before release.

EDIT: I'm going mostly based on my experience with the games themselves.

Well, after I got the game, I found some issues and many other things in the game that did not meet my expectations of what was talked about originally and shown in the video.  So I played several times, got the hang of it, felt it was rather empty.  This was before using mods.  I then went to suggest some changes on the forums and such, and all the big time heavy modders have said the devs are gone and the game is abandon, that a glitch that happened in the workshop will never be fixed (hundreds of people re-posted other people's mods all over the workshop, you might want to make sure that doesn't happen in yours :P) so it became a big problem and now the banished workshop with hundreds of re-posts of the same exact mod over and over again, only the developers can fix this, but they won't.  They made it so it won't continue happening but they won't clean up the mess they made, nor does it seem like the game has had an update for half a year or more.  I'd say a minimum of 7 months.  I just went off what the big hard core modders have stated, because usually, big time modders of any game tend to follow that game closely enough that they know the scoop.

I'm not saying Banished is a bad game, it's just that it feels unfinished, underdeveloped, and not well thought out.  it had potential, and at current version, it's playable.  That's about it.  More so of a snooze fest, I just turn it on, do a few things, get the economy going, then go to sleep after setting up some larger projects to collect over night.  At least it isn't as abandon as Spacebase DF-9.  :P  It's amazing how much work they put into the site but not the game.  :P  Glitches everywhere, disappointments at every turn, crappy AI.  It also had potential.  Rimworld, is so far the only Alpha game that hasn't been a disappointment at all.  Space Engineers makes a close second, but disappointed in the lack of communication between developers and the community, and there's like 25-50 of them, they split off the team to make a separate game.  -.-

Alpha games have a history of being abandon because of the long period of time they stay in alpha, and because eventually the developers slow on the update process to one update every 6 months or less and/or just end up leaving and not appearing in the community anymore and such.  Rimworld is one of the games that could prove the alpha game reputation wrong.  :P

Unfortunately, even full games get abandon sometimes too.  My favorite game of all time, Metal Drift (http://store.steampowered.com/app/32200), basically shut down, all work on it stopped.  All official multiplayer servers gone too.  Bleh.

In actual sense, Banished wasn't abandoned or anything then. The game was essentially released as a complete state. And since its not a subscription based game or stated as an alpha, the developer had no real obligation to continue working on the game or tweaking it. Therefore, we can't really go out and say that its abandoned or unfinished.

As for RW, considering the state of Alpha games, it is not uncommon for the initial description of the game to be different to what is being given at the point of time. Its all about working on priorities. Adding mechanics, fixing bugs, content, stories, etc. are all dependent on what the developer (namely Tynan), feels is the one that needs work on at this point of time. Add to the fact that since it is an Alpha game and Tynan actively reads through almost all the suggestions and ideas that people have posted in the forums, it is also quite common for him to get side-tracked a little to add in a great suggestion that someone had posted or a mod that he finds essentially to the base game. Thus, the nature of Alpha games is that it is ever-evolving and for us as the ones who are committing to buying the game, we should be well aware of the implications of buying such a game that has already clearly stated it is in alpha.

The situation is very similar to another Steam game, 7 Days to Die. The developers there do actively listen to what the community is suggesting and in any sense, the game has evolved into a far more complex game than what you can garner from its own kickstarter goals. That said, it hasn't fulfilled all that it has stated in its own kickstarter due to the aforementioned side tracking the developers have taken. Hence it is similar to RW in that sense. It baffles me in some sense that people would knowingly pay for an Alpha game, and then after playing for awhile, come unto the official forums and start blasting the game for being crap because they expected something more or because they feel its buggy. Fortunately, the community here on RW is rather more tolerant and forgiving compared to those on 7DtD.

Tynan, the fact that there are so many people that may be dissapointed at the thought that you could stop developing for rimworld soon just shows how great of a product you have made.  I forget all that I read regarding your promises for the game when I bought the alpha 1 release and that's fine.  Every update from that point afterwards was bonus. 

Would new content be great?  Of course!  All of us here recognize how much more could be done with rimworld.  What a lot of people may not truly recognize though, is that since you have made this game so modder friendly, modders will really take over when you are done developing.  With that said, get some rest so you can come back;-)

For those who may feel jipped in some fashion just think of the Super Nintendo days.  60 bucks a game.  In those times people read about a video game in a magazine.  They had no input whatsoever towards developement of a game.  Be thankful.  Play outside.  GG!

Looking at this discussion, and I think that I'll add my two cents.

Basically I agree with most of people here. Rimworld is awesome base, but it needs more flesh.
More variety. We have biomes, but only six or so of them.
We have like 6 animals species.
There is not really much of apparels or weapons.
No matter where you land, you will grow food from 4 kinds of plants.
And there is also not too much events.
If you asked me what to do now, I'd say, that Steam release could be much more successfull with one more alpha release before. This time focusing on variety. No new mechanics, no faction relations, no animal husbandry (they would be awesome, but its alot of work), but expand what exists currently.

Add new biomes (maybe something not matching real biomes, but something like biome filled with zerg-like creep, or just strange yellow ground with fantastic plants. It still shoult thematically fit to non-alien universe, but would add variety. And then while generating map, generator should chose x biomes. Not every biome has to appear on every planet.

Add new weapons. Or maybe talk to the modders, and try to integrate some mod added weapons.

More animals, more cloths, more plants.
Make growable plants depending on biomes.

Make events. a lot of them. Biggest changes in A11 were siegers, nuclear fallout, volcanic winter and warg pack. And it added alot of fun to the game. Every one of those events requires you to adapt specific strategy. To go out of your comfort zone, and adapt.  And it is awesome.

I could see game released as v1.0 without new mechanics. But expand what you have. Right now this game is in alpha. And for alpha it is awesome. But for full release it is not enough.

At some point you mentioned that you consider releasing two new versions during holidays, and doing Steam release after you return from break. I think it could be good decision (probably even better than releasing this game now as 1.0).

If burnout is the problem, have you considered going on vacation now, followed by a Steam EA release with some more updates to round out the things people have pointed out (faction relations, research, mid- and late-game mechanics, etc.)? Those things really just scream placeholder to me, like they are just there to test/demonstrate the basic mechanic while the rest of the game gets fleshed out some more. I think those things need to be addressed before Rimworld can truly be called a well-rounded game, especially considering the rather steep price point ($40 is in the realm of "professional" studio productions that aren't quite AAA, most Indie games don't charge half that price). And if you still want to add more to the game you could always go ahead and work on things like void gods, colonist relations, etc. which aren't really part of the game right now but would fit well into a future expansion.

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 01:12:26 AM

Quote from: SSS on July 02, 2015, 01:11:01 AM

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 01:09:06 AM

QuoteNo true sense of how much content would be in the game when it was finished was ever established, meaning consumers had to make some degree of assumption

Ok, well I agree with the first part of this, however the second part just isn't true. No assumptions about the future need to be made at all. The consumer's best advice is to look at a product as it is today and decide if they want that. If they don't want what's right there in front of them, don't buy. No assumptions needed.

This is being marketed as an alpha release of a game, not a complete game. That is the difference.

If this were being marketed as a complete game already, then I would agree.

Ok. Well we can agree to disagree on this specific point. In any case, I appreciate the thoughts.

at my view, most people mistake "buying into an alpha" for "buying a share". spending the money to a developer and getting into early access does not mean that you buy some power of decision. It's like ordering a dish - if the roundness of a potato does not match to your expectations, you can't blame the cook for chosing it.

Quote from: Euzio on July 02, 2015, 02:58:20 AM
In actual sense, Banished wasn't abandoned or anything then. The game was essentially released as a complete state. And since its not a subscription based game or stated as an alpha, the developer had no real obligation to continue working on the game or tweaking it. Therefore, we can't really go out and say that its abandoned or unfinished.

In that sense, I could release a game, promise some things, fail to deliver in time for "release", then abandon the game after I publish it as a 1.0 version, and have no obligation to continue.
KSP did something like this, I'm not sure if they abandon it yet, because it recently happened but the game was still early in alpha with little content, then there was this sudden push from a very early alpha to 1.0 immediately, it's like going from version 0.2 to 1.0 in a single update, then you quit and leave.  That's likely what happened with Banished.

As I stated though, I know that Rimworld, is not one of the games that this will happen to.  :P

I stand by my earlier comment that A11 is worth the money. Also, that if you don't plan on solidly committing to regular updates its best to just go 1.0 now. Delaying 6 months or a year for updates you might make seems silly to me and might not only let your game collect dust before release, but also sour some of the community - regardless of your expectations management. When you go to Steam you should be decisive, either to develop further (in alpha) or release now (with no promises about future development - which doesn't tie your hands if you change your mind).

That said, I do relate with others that the game would be strengthened considerably if more content was added within the existing systems. I don't think more weapons/items are necessary, as I view that as spammy, but more events would enrich the game substantially. There are many threads on this forum and in Reddit, including posts for me, on suggestions, which I'm sure you've thought plenty about yourself.

As others mention, I think ultimately the problem is there is little to differentiate biomes besides reskinned animals and temperatures that tend to be solved pretty quickly, given immediate access to relevant tech. Moreover, the game stabilizes a bit too quickly into a degenerate gameplay - raid after raid as the only real threat/disturbance. As some say with the easiest example, you plant a giant potato field on day 1, build a greenhouse around in on day 60, and then never worry about food again.

There are two "easy" ways to solve this - make the tech progression slower by padding the early and middle game - Superior Crafting does this excellently and after playing a few rounds of vanilla I'm eager to switch to that (although I adored vanilla for many many months!). I wouldn't mind a shift to early colonies being close to imbeciles with regards to available tech. Or 1 initial tech being randomly drawn based on colonist average skills. There are many other approaches in this vein that would help considerably.

The other is to differentiate gameplay throughout the arc of a game with events. For an example of how one event can radically improve the game, see Crash Landing. For me that completely changes the normal boring start to teeth-gritting experience which varies widely on each and every start! And completely shapes the early months of my colony in a deep way! We need many more of those type of story-rich events. There should be a pool of hundreds of events that could fire with probabilities varying based on:
- storyteller
- biome
- time of year
- temperature
- colony time
- faction relations
- terrain type
- rainfall
- colony population
- colony wealth
- skill set within colony
- recent actions of a colony
- etc.
Moreover, the probabilities of these firing should be conditional on multiple factors. This would make the set of events one receives from biome to biome (for example) vary widely, and each playthrough more unique.

In addition to varying inputs to cause an event, events should have a wide range of scale, duration and style (e.g. raid, environmental, within colony, between colony, etc). Ideally combining the input conditions and possible outputs a designer (not player) could see a matrix of all the possible configurations a see that each biome and colony type combination would have a handful of events unique to it, plus others that overlap.

I think the natural response to this is "Yes, that's what the existing game systems are for - to create emergent gameplay across all the variations so I don't have to!". Fair point, but as the systems stand now I think it is still a bit too easy to "wash rinse repeat" strategies (habits), given the one random factor - events - tends to be so consistent game to game. The emergence and mechanics could really shine if there was a deep pool of events to push us players out of our comfort zones, away from our degenerate strategies, and into new territory.

So where does that put you? Again, I think it is fair to release as 1.0 right now - but there are a few suggestions that may line up with your doubts and could help push this game from "worth it" towards "epic":
- Crush out as much content (events, not mechanics) before the vacation - if you are dedicated full time to events (which I assume are mostly self contained), how many could you complete before September?
- Release on Steam now as EA, and contract a top notch modder to populate events full time during your vacation - I know there is a matching/management issue you've mentioned before, but perhaps you could tap some of the existing talent with a short-term contract. I guess this would depend on your expected profit from the Steam release, but my guess is it should be able to cover a contractor for a few months (maybe I'm optimistic) and still be profitable for you. Have that person scheduled to release an ever growing "official" event pack every month during your holiday, and integrate it fully into vanilla upon your return. This at least guarantees a set level of new content will make it more palatable under the Early Access banner (I think), admittedly at some cost to you.
- Release as EA with a event/mod contest - I'm not sure how this would fly with the community, but what about a contest for the best original mod every week with prizes (e.g. $100 per week)? Judging/voting would be an issue (I guess you need at least a handful of trusted community members to moderate entries to avoid dups), but this could also generate good buzz (perhaps). I think this probably isn't good enough on its own, but could perhaps compliment to another option.
- Delay Steam (EA or 1.0) until after your vacation, when your head is clear and you can commit solidly to one path - probably the easiest choice, but it does risk disappointing some of the Steam holdouts and others that you've excited this week with the thought of Workshop integration.

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 09:58:16 PM
Another option is to just not release on Steam this summer and delay until, say, some time in 2016.

I'm now considering this and would love to hear any thoughts on it. I'll be adding more stuff to the game either way on pretty much the same schedule; it's just about timing and presenting the Steam release the right way.

I don't think you'll have too much problems with negative reviews if you go on vacations right after releasing it on steam. However, if you wan't to complete eradicate criticism, you better go do your vacations and then come back to see if anything has changed in your mind. That's how I see it.

Thank you so much for a wonderful game, Tynan. I am one person who rarely plays with mods and I've still put in hundreds of hours. I'm also concerned about a Steam release getting too many negative reviews for lack of content and hurting your business long term.

I know that I don't make great decisions when I'm in burnout. I've been there and it's hard to see the forest through all the trees. Mostly I just want it all to be over and done with and move on.

I personally would love to see the modders go crazy with a stable release for six months, then see a release on Steam.

But you've also made much better decisions about rimworld than I would have made, so I will also trust and respect your judgement.

Quote from: andyprogrammer on July 02, 2015, 10:26:42 AM
Thank you so much for a wonderful game, Tynan. I am one person who rarely plays with mods and I've still put in hundreds of hours.

I feel you, I ignored most of the mods that changed much and still played solid 200 hours. ^^

The backlash Tynan is receiving is being driven by the simple fact that the public will see the release to steam, and then a 6 month vacation as a money grab... true or not. Perception is reality.

Release this rimworld as 1.0, with all the glitches and bugs in the UI, and the reviews will be about how unpolished the UI is, and what does that mean for the game code.  And the UI bugs have been reported and blown off as not important. The mouse focus not working consistently is the largest problem.

from a consumers point of view;

Alpha implies constant updates and added content.

Beta implies updates with balance changes and bug fixes.

Released implies finished game. A great studio releases hotfixes for major problems discovered after release.

Rimworld needs to have the UI bugs fixed. It also has some balance issues that need addressed.  Tynan does not want to add more content at this time, that is his choice.  Any release at this time, with a planned 6 month hiatus will be viewed very negatively.

As is evident in the responses to the blog post, and this thread. And these response are from people who enjoy the game, play the game, and support the game.

Quote from: Cdr.Keen on July 02, 2015, 08:57:47 AM

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 01:09:06 AMOk. Well we can agree to disagree on this specific point. In any case, I appreciate the thoughts.

at my view, most people mistake "buying into an alpha" for "buying a share". spending the money to a developer and getting into early access does not mean that you buy some power of decision. It's like ordering a dish - if the roundness of a potato does not match to your expectations, you can't blame the cook for chosing it.

If you're implying that's what I think, I don't. I never used the phrase "buying into", and I also made it clear that I wasn't trying to make Tynan do anything. I just believe that releasing a game as an alpha carries an inherent implication that there is meant to be more than there currently is. To the say that you shouldn't buy whilst taking this implication in account is unfair in my opinion: If you could stop developing at any point, then you have no business marketing your game as an alpha in the first place, or, rather, you should be setting an appropriate measure of expectation of the final product so you don't have people who misinterpret any such implication. (Also, personally, I find it mildly surprising if even Tynan thought this was worth $30 back during the early alphas, which is what "you should buy what's in front of you" would imply.)

I'm not trying to vilify Tynan, so please don't try to marginalize me. Thanks.

Edit: To make this more constructive, though I personally have qualms with Tynan calling the game complete now (and therefore preferring that he wait to decide whether to release on Steam until after his break), if he is to release the game on Steam now, I think he would be better off calling it a complete game: If there is any possibility that he will not continue working on the game and it's released as early access, the game will probably garner a poor reputation. If the game should be bought as is, then it should be presented as is.

additional thoughts;

What is a story teller? there is NO tag or search on steam for a story teller. What are you competing against? I found rimworld via survival simulation.  Story teller met nothing to me, and still means very little today. It is about growing a survivable community, for as long as possible. The stories that do happen are nice window dressing.

This game will be found on steam from the survival tag, or simulation tag. Both  tags imply the type of game one is purchasing. 

I purchases Banished, for $7.99, which also met my price expectations of a few afternoons of fun, and then on to the next game. I played more than a few afternoons.

Price also sets expectations. And a $30 price sets those expectations high.

Terrira is a fun little game, also with a price point of $10.... Also about survival, and building a base. Can also be played co-op. This is your competition.

Now onto the issue of mods... to the modding community they love to tinker with games, change the game, and have fun programming.

There are consumers that look at a game that is highly modded, as a BAD thing. Means the game is broken, and that the programmer did a horrible job.  Many mods are broken, or so horribly unbalanced as to make the game a horrible experience.

Not saying the base game of rimworld is horrible, far from it, but again talking perception of the every day consumer, that is searching to spend $30, a price point that is HIGH for an indie game. Sets expectations high.

Tynan says the game is  "done". He is satisfied with it. As an alpha game I can agree with that statement. As a beta game, it needs some Tender Loving Care. (balance & bugs)
As a 1.0 release, questionable.

Quote from: Skissor on July 02, 2015, 10:23:45 AM

Quote from: Tynan on July 01, 2015, 09:58:16 PM
Another option is to just not release on Steam this summer and delay until, say, some time in 2016.

I'm now considering this and would love to hear any thoughts on it. I'll be adding more stuff to the game either way on pretty much the same schedule; it's just about timing and presenting the Steam release the right way.

I don't think you'll have too much problems with negative reviews if you go on vacations right after releasing it on steam. However, if you wan't to complete eradicate criticism, you better go do your vacations and then come back to see if anything has changed in your mind. That's how I see it.

I would rather see the game on steam sooner, and you can use the steam news system to post that you are going on a break and list whatever details you wish to, and it will appear there on the steam library for every user who wants to launch the game so they'll always know and can't claim they didn't know.

These news things also appear on the store page too, so there's that too.

Quote from: TLHeart on July 02, 2015, 10:42:35 AMThe backlash Tynan is receiving is being driven by the simple fact that the public will see the release to steam, and then a 6 month vacation as a money grab... true or not. Perception is reality.

-- and more stuff --

This is one reason I think it should still be released as an Alpha game, so people can't complain that a "finished game" is "full of bugs" or "feels unfinished".  People pay more attention to news postings on Alpha games too and people also add a game to their wishlist if they'd rather wait till it comes out of Alpha.

TLH, what UI bugs are you talking about? If you're aware of UI bugs, could you report them? I'm not seeing anything significant in Mantis and I haven't seen anything while playing the game.

--

Thanks for the ongoing responses everyone. I actually may end up just not doing Steam release now and leaving it for next year when I'm back and can be more on top of it. On the one hand, I want to get it done and I also want to provide Steam access for all of you for your convenience. On the other hand, I don't want to harm the game's biggest launch and make it worse than it could be.

Still considering options here.

Personally I would do the steam launch in Early Access.  Let it go for a month.  Then fix all the bugs reported and tweak stuff.  Then release 1.0 and do a bugfix patch a week or so later.  Then take your break.  During the break, Id do some tiny updates so it doesnt seem like its being ignored but mostly enjoy your time off.  After 6 months come back with a bigger update taking care of the things you didnt want to spend the time fixing during your time off and then announce your plans for the future.

Well, Steam's auto-update is very useful for making sure that testers are testing using the latest version. Perhaps leave it in testing on Steam, so you can work all the kinks out.

On the other hand, having your own launcher to conveniently supply updates to everyone who's bought a copy would mean you could get that advantage without having to do a Steam release yet.

I mean no offence to Steam, but it's a game launcher and updating tool with a whole bucket of extras. Just need the first two things! :)

Quote from: SSS on July 02, 2015, 11:16:41 AM
[...]

I'm not trying to vilify Tynan, so please don't try to marginalize me. Thanks.

[...]

it wasn't my intention to marginalize anyone, don't take it personal :). i just talked about the "trend" many ea titles got to deal with. feel yourself hugged :)

i also think (and as many wrote) that a steam release at this time will stir up the community. no one of the new users knows about the evolution the game made during last updates. we know that a11 comparing to other alphas is the best so far, but they will see the game only at it's current state and surely cry for more.

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 12:01:50 PM
TLH, what UI bugs are you talking about? If you're aware of UI bugs, could you report them? I'm not seeing anything significant in Mantis and I haven't seen anything while playing the game.

--

Thanks for the ongoing responses everyone. I actually may end up just not doing Steam release now and leaving it for next year when I'm back and can be more on top of it. On the one hand, I want to get it done and I also want to provide Steam access for all of you for your convenience. On the other hand, I don't want to harm the game's biggest launch and make it worse than it could be.

Still considering options here.

Many text box don't have focus, when trying to type into them. a couple of reports below.
https://ludeon.com/mantis/view.php?id=1078
https://ludeon.com/mantis/view.php?id=1595


Having to click on the UI, then  click again to get it to accept the commands. IE the first mouse click sets the focus to the UI, then I can interact with the UI. Anytime I go to click on menu, it takes two clicks. Same with the architecture menu. Takes two clicks on the reverse designators also.
https://ludeon.com/mantis/view.php?id=1923

The drop down of two rows on the trade screen interface after scrolling up or down, reported many times.

here is the first report,
http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=8241.msg81983#msg81983
Still happens today.
and here it is in mantis https://ludeon.com/mantis/view.php?id=1569
and another thread,
http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12895.0

Right click does not respond the first time, takes two right clicks to get the game to respond.

All which you have dismissed since you can not replicate them. But many people see them have, and are just tired of reporting them.

TL, none of those bugs are "dismissed". All but one are open and in Mantis, which means they're currently competing for my attention with every other Mantis bug and every other feature request or idea ever presented. Just because I didn't fix them yet doesn't mean I never will. If I was never going to fix them I'd close the bugs.

The only one that is closed is the third one reported once by Semmy, who himself said there was no repro. If there is a repro, that's news to me. In that case, please reopen it. That's what I need you testers for.

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 12:01:50 PMThanks for the ongoing responses everyone. I actually may end up just not doing Steam release now and leaving it for next year when I'm back and can be more on top of it. On the one hand, I want to get it done and I also want to provide Steam access for all of you for your convenience. On the other hand, I don't want to harm the game's biggest launch and make it worse than it could be.

Still considering options here.

If you're going to be gone for a significant time, it would give everyone a chance to get used to the workshop, and without game updates, we'll all learn how much nicer it is to have mods auto updating through workshop subscription system.  I still think early access is the way to go, but really it's up to you.  It is technically good enough for a release, but, if lots of changes are planned, you may wish to consider early access.  You can type your own statement and everything after all so people can see what your plans are and why it's listed as early access and such.  Maybe, you should do a poll?  To see what the community thinks?
http://strawpoll.me/4807323 - Not the official poll, I just made a quick one for you and voted.  :P

I think the answer is simple, just like Vas said. If content is still going to be added, call it what it is, an alpha stage or "Early Access" on Steam.

I think it should be delayed and put into early access after his break. Going onto Steam is a big move, and I think considering that after his break would be better than treating like something that needs to be done before it.

I would say release it as early access beta now and going into your break, browse through the forums because there will be a ton of new feedback on Steam release and when you come back make the full release.

Personally I would also be fine with a Steam release next year but I think it would be better to collect the feedback while in your break and start work again with a reflected view on it rather than start work while the feedback from the Steam community patters onto you.

Quote from: Axelios on July 02, 2015, 05:31:16 PM
I think it should be delayed and put into early access after his break. Going onto Steam is a big move, and I think considering that after his break would be better than treating like something that needs to be done before it.

I'm leaning more and more in this direction.

Another piece of news: Piotr Walczak is back to help again after his year at school, so I'll have some coding help until the end of September. You may recall he wrote the original code for the health system last summer, as well as various other smaller things. So that'll enhance Ludeon's output.

i was about to buy this game actually, but with the upcoming steam release, and the lack of guarantee that i will recieve a steam key should i still buy it?

Quote from: Dr. Z on July 02, 2015, 05:37:41 PM
I would say release it as early access beta now and going into your break, browse through the forums because there will be a ton of new feedback on Steam release and when you come back make the full release.

Personally I would also be fine with a Steam release next year but I think it would be better to collect the feedback while in your break and start work again with a reflected view on it rather than start work while the feedback from the Steam community patters onto you.

One problem you forgot is that on steam he will get feedback but also game reviews, which could turn out to be negative due to him going on vacations almost right after.

Quote from: TheRealNiall on July 02, 2015, 07:59:30 PM
i was about to buy this game actually, but with the upcoming steam release, and the lack of guarantee that i will recieve a steam key should i still buy it?

Based on the wording in the blog post, no - not if you care about a Steam key.

Quote from: TheRealNiall on July 02, 2015, 07:59:30 PM
i was about to buy this game actually, but with the upcoming steam release, and the lack of guarantee that i will recieve a steam key should i still buy it?

From the FAQ:
http://ludeon.com/blog/faq/

QuoteWill I get a Steam key?
– It depends when you bought the game. If you bought the game on or before November 4, 2014 you will get a key when the game is released on Steam. If you bought the game after that, we will try to get you a Steam key but Valve's policies prevent us from being able to guarantee this.

So no guarantees.

yeah, the only reason why i care about the steam key so much is because of the workshop support
as good as nexus is, its just easier, and there will be more variety with the workshop

In my experience, Workshop can be a bit hit and miss. I take a look at the mods available for Game Dev Tycoon every now and then, and there's a horde of them just whipped up in five minutes with a requirement that you have UltimateLib, with not much actual content. Skyrim? I have some subscribed Steam mods, but most of them are downloaded from the Nexus.

Well, I'm reminded of discussions of stonehearth, as that game is (or maybe was, I'm not sure) unavailable to buy on steam, but was used as the distribution client. You could always release for those keys are owed, so that the community, support and workshop can support, before a wider release, and iron out any issues there are with steam client/player support issues, and then release to buy on steam when you come back?

I don't know how to arrange with steam, but just a thought

Quote from: JonoRig on July 03, 2015, 01:35:00 AM
Well, I'm reminded of discussions of stonehearth, as that game is (or maybe was, I'm not sure) unavailable to buy on steam, but was used as the distribution client. You could always release for those keys are owed, so that the community, support and workshop can support, before a wider release, and iron out any issues there are with steam client/player support issues, and then release to buy on steam when you come back?

I don't know how to arrange with steam, but just a thought

I've heard of that and tried to look into it, but I don't think that path is available to most. I'm not sure how they got that deal but I'm pretty explicitly prohibited from doing something like that.

Quote from: Tynan on July 03, 2015, 01:51:41 AM
I've heard of that and tried to look into it, but I don't think that path is available to most. I'm not sure how they got that deal but I'm pretty explicitly prohibited from doing something like that.

That's a shame to hear, because it might of been a good avenue to appease everyone

Seems like a good choice, it will be one thing less to worry about on vacation.
In my opinion vanilia rimworld could use some polishing before relealse, since even now with its all cool futures, player wont be using even half of it, becouse the game dont encorage them to do that or they dont know about of thier existance. And as much i hate to say it mods wont help at the beginning, even thrugh they help highligh various game features, its all about first impression, and most ppl will just dont use mods at the start.

Quote from: mrofa on July 03, 2015, 10:21:48 AM
Seems like a good choice, it will be one thing less to worry about on vacation.
In my opinion vanilia rimworld could use some polishing before relealse, since even now with its all cool futures, player wont be using even half of it, becouse the game dont encorage them to do that or they dont know about of thier existance. And as much i hate to say it mods wont help at the beginning, even thrugh they help highligh various game features, its all about first impression, and most ppl will just dont use mods at the start.

Now that I think of it, Tynan might have to wait for the Wiki to be fully updated and completed. Also, I have played so much and never again have I taken a look at the tutorial at the beginning. I needed so much time to get used to the vanilla game, and I started using mods after 2-3 weeks. So the first impression is always going to be vanilla with tutorials and no knowledge, and I agree it was difficult.

I'm worried about if I cannot get a steam key because of late purchase :(

I also think that the game must be teach the new players by it self for all features. Current tutorials on basic tools are good, so I think extending that to the advanced functions will be nice.

Hope good luck for steam release and I hope to see you again in months later with new Rim World update ;)

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 05:38:04 PM

Quote from: Axelios on July 02, 2015, 05:31:16 PM
I think it should be delayed and put into early access after his break. Going onto Steam is a big move, and I think considering that after his break would be better than treating like something that needs to be done before it.

I'm leaning more and more in this direction.

Another piece of news: Piotr Walczak is back to help again after his year at school, so I'll have some coding help until the end of September. You may recall he wrote the original code for the health system last summer, as well as various other smaller things. So that'll enhance Ludeon's output.

I'd say, wait till after the break, then release as early access on steam for maybe a year before going full release so you can get the nice large flood of suggestions and figure out if you are going to do any further major game changes before release.  People don't like major game changes on full releases that much.  So anything too major may make a lot of people upset if it's on a non-alpha, where as alpha, you can make any change you want.

You know what I would have enjoyed?  That other game you had in your prototype pack.  The one where you were in space and stuff.  I'll have to go get that again to find the name.  :P

Starship Architect :)

I think it would be doable as a RimWorld mod actually.

Quote from: Tynan on July 03, 2015, 01:24:21 PM
Starship Architect :)

I think it would be doable as a RimWorld mod actually.

I actually had a complex idea for someone's mod that might actually be good as a whole new game or a Rimworld 2 or maybe a really good large new feature to Rimworld.  :P  But yea, maybe I'll post it to the forum sometime after we think things out and such.  Short version; an orbital station that lets you drop colonists anywhere on the map to start multiple bases.  A whole new goal rather than just "escape the planet".

My opinion on this :
- Tynan is entitled to taking a 6 month break if he want
- I see no legal lies in switching a Early-Access game into a completed game whenever he want
- All further opinions are thus a question of Relation with the Community and Marketing

Tynan,
As said earlier, it is unavoidable that some people bought Rimworld in an early-access state expecting a minimal amounts of amelioration... after-all Early-Access is born to allow Independent developers to get funding for the Development of the game.

If one bought A10 and is satisfied by A11, then it is great for him.
I however, must admit that for a game paid 30€ I really hoped to support the development of a game concept that would have been a very risky gamble otherwise.

For the comparison with Banished which cost 20€  I also do, like Vas, consider it abandoned (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=14231.msg147285#msg147285) and not much replayable without mods. Terraria just had a very very big patch a days ago. Unepic although a different genre or development team definitely feel complete (in the sense that whatever addition we could ask would feel like a minor details)

So myself I would be disappointed if Rimworld didn't meet some objectives, although I find very very honorable for you to tell everyone to NOT expect more than they have and completely agree with the logic that you are not forced to oblige.

To be said : Rimworld have a GREAT engine. What is lacking (IMHO) is contents, precisely for the replayability discussed earlier by SSS (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=14231.msg147277#msg147277). That's case is actually quite rare for a game. Many developers spammed contents desperately to improve a game with a gameplay too weak for that content to make a change.
This is why I would be saddened for Rimworld to waste this potential. What is the point of having 100 parameters if you only exploit a dozens ? Minecraft player would kill to have a system of seasons/temperature/health/

Note : Unsurprisingly to me this content is summed up by enough Events (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=9755.0) to make Themed Storyteller (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=12534.msg126185#msg126185)viable (for modding at least) with some Ending (https://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=11275.msg112541#msg112541). I'll add that Rimworld could get some UI improvement (multiple selections and all).


As for the question of whether or not to release it on Steam as Early-Access...
After reading all opinions here, I would also be split.
- 6 month would give a good time for a modder community to develop.
- Steam will definitely attract a lot of people
- Yet it would be great marketing for you to preserve that fast spaced development rate.
- But you still need a break, or more people working with you.
Still, a 6 months delay before an update is not something rare at all on steam, so I see no reason to not do it at least in Early-Access, you'll definitely get a lot of suggestions. The forum will definitely have a lot of newcommer (and you might face the Public Relation KSP faced)

Ps : A friend of mine waiting before buying the game is asking if you intend to let Steam have Discount like -50%.

Kegereneku, generally new steam games don't get discounted for more than 10% at most.  As you said, developers need to make money.  Discounts happen later on when the game doesn't have much going on anymore and doesn't need as much upkeep and such.

I think Tynan should take his break, then do the steam stuff.  After considering the fact that it will be a very long break, steam release may cause some people to think he has run off.  So, waiting till after the break to put on steam (just in case of some serious steam related bugs that require an active game developer around), would give him more opertunity to think about the future of the game, and consider whether he should indeed release as early access for a duration of time before marking as full release.

Tynan, this method of releasing as early access first, gives you the opertunity of two "releases" on steam.  You'll basically get your game on the front page twice.  :P  As well as not annoying anyone too much with major changes made during early access.

In short, I believe the best course of action would be to break first, then early access release for a period of time before a full release.  What do you think?

Quote from: Vas on July 03, 2015, 04:00:07 PM
Tynan, this method of releasing as early access first, gives you the opertunity of two "releases" on steam.  You'll basically get your game on the front page twice.  :P  As well as not annoying anyone too much with major changes made during early access.

In short, I believe the best course of action would be to break first, then early access release for a period of time before a full release.  What do you think?

These are basically my thoughts on the matter. I think ultimately I will end up doing EA for a while before the final release.It gives you two PR bumps, and there are things to learn during EA. It doesn't have to be a super long EA period (though it could be). It's good to have the flexibility.

Fully agree with Kegereneku and Vas about the steam release.

Fully agree on "taking the break first, then releasing" moves.
You'd be facing diff. concerns that would potentially appear when out with a reposed mind, fresh thoughts, recovered efficiency and so on...

Quote from: Vas on July 03, 2015, 04:00:07 PM
Kegereneku, generally new steam games don't get discounted for more than 10% at most.  As you said, developers need to make money.  Discounts happen later on when the game doesn't have much going on anymore and doesn't need as much upkeep and such.

I think Tynan should take his break, then do the steam stuff.  After considering the fact that it will be a very long break, steam release may cause some people to think he has run off.  So, waiting till after the break to put on steam (just in case of some serious steam related bugs that require an active game developer around), would give him more opertunity to think about the future of the game, and consider whether he should indeed release as early access for a duration of time before marking as full release.

Tynan, this method of releasing as early access first, gives you the opertunity of two "releases" on steam.  You'll basically get your game on the front page twice.  :P  As well as not annoying anyone too much with major changes made during early access.

In short, I believe the best course of action would be to break first, then early access release for a period of time before a full release.  What do you think?

^this.

And to be honest I and most are fine with you taking a break, I mean you have been working full time on this and giving us almost monthly alphas and the coding must be a nightmare lol.

I honestly will be fine with a finished state IF it has atleast everything that was promised in kickstarter. and to be honest thats already almost done, all you need is more with archaeology *I know ruins are in the game but more could be done with it. like finding ancient tech when digging through, so on* the religion system. *and thats already started, even mildly by the praying joy action* and the relationship system. all of these things will give you more things to acomodate in the game and make it more different each time. So I think they're a must as they're promised anyway. But after that I think it'll be a good idea to get away for 6 months or so, get a fresh mind on things and if you want to add more at that point that'll be our greatful bonus to this amazing game that has godly protential, within mods and development.

And I personally just want to say thank you Tynan, you've done an amazing job so far and I hope you continue the good work :)

Quote from: SSS on July 02, 2015, 01:11:01 AM

Quote from: Tynan on July 02, 2015, 01:09:06 AM

QuoteNo true sense of how much content would be in the game when it was finished was ever established, meaning consumers had to make some degree of assumption

What he said :p. I bought the game for the fairly high price assuming more content would be added(note I did not read the rest of Tynan's responses so if he's stated other-wise ignore this post lol I don't have time to read through 7 pages). Its in alpha at the moment and has been since I purchased it. This has always meant in gaming development history that features are being added. It then should hit beta were content and bug fixes happen, and then release with post release bug fixes missed. I have to agree I am disappointed in hearing this news very much and do not agree it is "done". To many EA Games I have bought get development cut early in the last few years :(. We all understand no game is perfect and you could be in development forever if that were the case. However when I purchase a product, I expect full support for a normal life cycle.

On another note I wish I could randomly decide to take a 6 month paid vacation at my job(Im In the wrong profession apparently). I can understand a break of a few weeks or even a month.. but thats ludicrous honestly lol. It sounds like your taking the money, as you stated this was very profitable, and turning your cheek. Which I hope is not the case and you really do finish what you started here considering how close you are. Not that you care, but dont expect money from me in the future if this is the end.

Been away on holiday so late the party, but I reckon a full release next year and patching similar to Terraria or FTL would probably be more beneficial. If it's on Steam as a 1.0 release there won't so much be a demand for extra content as there would if it was in early access because to your average Steam user that kind of implies new content every 3 days or else. It could be business as usual on the Ludeon forums and if there ends up being people passionate enough coming over from Steam they'd be more informed as to what's going on, but your average Steam user won't have anything to pick at as a "not recommended".

It'd give you much more room for larger updates over longer periods of time without really having to say much to the general Steam community about what's going on. I guess what I'm trying to say is if it's not openly offered or suggested it won't be missed in the first place, and anyone who cares enough about the game to end up on these forums to find out more will most likely care enough about the game to be far more patient and supportive. That FTL Advanced Edition update came out of nowhere and it was awesome, no-one really expected it if I remember, and the Terraria updates, very little is said from what I'm aware until it's basically on top of us.

:D

*grats Tyran*

Quote from: magicbush on July 04, 2015, 04:50:52 AM
On another note I wish I could randomly decide to take a 6 month paid vacation at my job(Im In the wrong profession apparently). I can understand a break of a few weeks or even a month.. but thats ludicrous honestly lol. It sounds like your taking the money, as you stated this was very profitable, and turning your cheek. Which I hope is not the case and you really do finish what you started here considering how close you are. Not that you care, but dont expect money from me in the future if this is the end.

Eh... Tynan has been posting, reading, updating, working on rimworld for awhile. 6 months is a large amount of time though, so I see what you mean.

Let's not necro this thread please. This discussion is all based on old info anyway. The Ludeon blog has the latest.