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As we all know AI is lot smarter so they dig through walls...but the stupid thing about that is how the hell they know where exact to dig ?...I build a room inside a huge mountain and they dig a straight line trough it

When my colony dig trough walls (mine) I don't see what is behind the walls....is it a secret room...is it a ore...is it a open space....I need to dig to find out not knowing what is behind

but AI somehow knows exactly what location your rooms are hidden inside the walls

This is really unrealistic that AI know where exactly to dig....its a unfair advantage....why don't they randomly dig or make a mistake but they know exactly where my rooms are hidden inside the mountain


Picture example

(http://i.imgur.com/yhV80wK.png)

Apparently all tasks including work bench recipes work off a radius and do not examine the number of steps or time required to reach the goal.  It's not just enemy AI.  I don't like this behavior anywhere it appears but yes it's irritating with invaders too.

It would be fiendishly difficult to write AI that is convincingly human-like and still poses a challenge. Besides, player knows EXACTLY where everything is, so it's fair game.

As to how they know ? Spies. You get lots of visitors, don't you ?

I'm a bit more annoyed that mortar crews know exact positions of all moving colonists on the map. Quite often they try to shell  snipers sent to take them down.

Quote from: b0rsuk on July 29, 2015, 04:13:01 AM
It would be fiendishly difficult to write AI that is convincingly human-like and still poses a challenge. Besides, player knows EXACTLY where everything is, so it's fair game.

As to how they know ? Spies. You get lots of visitors, don't you ?

I'm a bit more annoyed that mortar crews know exact positions of all moving colonists on the map. Quite often they try to shell  snipers sent to take them down.

actually player does not know what hides inside the mountain...unless you use some kind of mod for that but we are talking about vanilla....you do not know what is behind a wall of a mountain until you dig trough so you do not know where are hidden structures, ancient evil, ores, open space


and no I do not allow visitors I shoot or capture them as soon as they come near my colony....I like capturing visitors and having all faction enemies.....I never send them recourses or request help from them...I like capturing them and recruiting, growing up my colony

Man, you guys are taking things too seriously. I don't really mind if it's not realistic.

I could provide a ton of unrealistic and illogical things about this game. But nah...
Just answer this: "Is it really that irritating that I can't enjoy this raid?"

Quote from: NemesisN on July 29, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
As we all know AI is lot smarter so they dig trough walls...but the stupid thing about that is how the hell they know where exact to dig ?...I build a room inside a huge mountain and they dig a straight line trough it

When my colony dig trough walls (mine) I don't see what is behind the walls....is it a secret room...is it a ore...is it a open space....I need to dig to find out not knowing what is behind

but AI somehow knows exactly what location your rooms are hidden inside the walls

This is really unrealistic that AI know where exactly to dig....its a unfair advantage....why don't they randomly dig or make a mistake but they know exactly where my rooms are hidden inside the mountain

Would you rather that the raider just dig aimlessly everywhere?  What do you expect?  You want realistic?  None of this game is realistic.  Perhaps the raiders have a pin point on one of your orbital  trade becans and know were to dig by that?

the game does not have to be 100% realistic...but it could be less of a troll....the AI that dig straight line to your rooms and rocket launchers that fire like machine guns....these 2 things in the game are so unbelievable annoying and and OP....it can easily ruin your colony just like that....the game is hard enough with all the things that it has why does it need to give AI additional advantage

It can be realistic IMO. What if the raiders have some gear that detects wave lengths through the mountains? We are playing a game that takes place in the future.

Anyway, if you don't have that much imagination it's still a minor flaw. Stop complaining and enjoy the game

Quote from: Play2Jens on July 29, 2015, 10:37:47 AM
It can be realistic IMO. What if the raiders have some gear that detects wave lengths through the mountains? We are playing a game that takes place in the future.

Anyway, if you don't have that much imagination it's still a minor flaw. Stop complaining and enjoy the game

If raiders had those then it would be mentioned in the development blog...but there is no such thing...I am not a kid to have a huge imagination to make up random beliefs from my head about something that is not explained

If people do not complain or suggest things then we would not give any ideas to developer where to improve the game....complaining and suggesting things are the part of Alpha games that are still work in progress

Quote from: NemesisN on July 29, 2015, 10:18:56 AM
the game does not have to be 100% realistic...but it could be less of a troll....the AI that dig straight line to your rooms and rocket launchers that fire like machine guns....these 2 things in the game are so unbelievable annoying and and OP....it can easily ruin your colony just like that....the game is hard enough with all the things that it has why does it need to give AI additional advantage

For you perhaps, I quite enjoy it.

These are challenges that you need to beat. You just need to exert the effort to do it. And when you do, it feels rewarding.

Ways to do so, however, varies.
Smart thinking, luck, save scumming, getting out of your fortress/comfort zone or combination of all of these. Be creative with how you approach things.

You're probably the type of player that rely mostly on defense. Try offense. Or if that fails, lower the difficulty. Also regarding the AI thing, it's supposed to be a threat, not a daily drop of gear.

different people have different opinions, likes and dislikes...maybe for you that is good but for me its annoying and there are people that would agree with me

I do not rely on defense I use a lot of offense tactics which result in higher chance of deaths of my colonist....and that risk is caused because of these see trough walls diggers which force me to go on offense

this is a advantage to AI which I find unfair for them to know the exact location of rooms inside the mountains with no really good defense against it then to surround your entire base with turrets and that costs a lot of recourses and power

also to add on that lowering difficulty does not effect this at all

every story teller has its own difficultly but that does not change the AI to not dig trough walls...no matter what difficultly you set the game they will dig trough....no matter if its a small scale or large scale raid they cause a lot of problems with it and its annoying

I've found that sappers seem to pick on the same spot to break through. But they're not completely predictable, sometimes if they have frag grenades they'll just lob grenades at the wall/rock. Still, it's nice to be prepared.

*sound of sapper being decapitated by deadfall trap*

sappers, so easy to defeat, go out and attack the escorts before the sapper starts attacking your walls/ mountain. The sapper is easy to identify also, has grenades, and is either mining or attacking a wall. The escorts will mill around while you kill them... They will not fight back until the sapper starts attacking your outer perimeter.

The sappers Know where to dig, because you trade with the trades, who see everything, and that knowledge is shared by all factions.

And sappers will attack the same spot over and over, so long as you don't put any defense in that area.... you can even control where the sapper will attack, by where you place turrets, and ieds.

The intent of the sapper is to get you out of your base and to be difficult, to force you to use a different strategy.

Quote from: NemesisN on July 29, 2015, 12:46:29 PM
different people have different opinions, likes and dislikes...maybe for you that is good but for me its annoying and there are people that would agree with me

I do not rely on defense I use a lot of offense tactics which result in higher chance of deaths of my colonist....and that risk is caused because of these see trough walls diggers which force me to go on offense

this is a advantage to AI which I find unfair for them to know the exact location of rooms inside the mountains with no really good defense against it then to surround your entire base with turrets and that costs a lot of recourses and power

Sappers, drone ships, sieges. These are all events created for the purpose of forcing the player to risk the lives of their pawns and create a change of pace. So not every raid is a one sided meatgrinder.

Your problem is that you can't prepare against it because it's unpredictable. And it creates a situation where your pawns are in danger. Death is part of this game, you need to accept that. Unless it's obvious BS like death from lightning strikes. Otherwise, save scumming best answer

I wonder what would happen if you try Dwarf Fortress.
(http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png)

Quote from: NemesisN on July 29, 2015, 12:51:35 PM
also to add on that lowering difficulty does not effect this at all

every story teller has its own difficultly but that does not change the AI to not dig trough walls...no matter what difficultly you set the game they will dig trough....no matter if its a small scale or large scale raid they cause a lot of problems with it and its annoying

Again, the whole point of them avoiding your defenses and targeting unprotected places IS to cause problems for you. Problems that you need to solve. You just don't want to deal with that and it happening annoys you. The same way I feel when there's a crapton of centipedes attacking my base, creating long fights I find a chore.

I doubt I can convince you. Either you'll just have to deal with it or revert (if possible) to a previous version of the game before sappers. Because this is an intended feature that probably won't be changed. Along with the triple rocket launcher.

Considering pawns already can learn turret layout, applying this to base schematics would be doable. And while raiders automatically knowing the layout would be interesting, just imagine the chaos of them mining into a sealed scarab room,  thinking its your base. More possibilities are better in my opinion

Quote from: b0rsuk on July 29, 2015, 04:13:01 AM
As to how they know ? Spies. You get lots of visitors, don't you ?

^this is what i have been telling myself too

This gets me thinking,  perhaps we should get forbidden zones for visitors? Would make sense you could have "residents only" signs... Would also solve visitors eating all the food,  and other issues.

Quote from: mumblemumble on July 30, 2015, 06:08:35 AM
This gets me thinking,  perhaps we should get forbidden zones for visitors? Would make sense you could have "residents only" signs... Would also solve visitors eating all the food,  and other issues.

just shoot them on sight....that is what I do

You have complete satellite coverage of everything not surrounded by mountains the moment you land on the planet.

So do they.

OR:

You aren't aware of the thirty-two times they dug in the wrong place because they save scummed until they found your base.

Quote from: Devon_v on July 30, 2015, 01:41:18 PM
You have complete satellite coverage of everything not surrounded by mountains the moment you land on the planet.

So do they.

OR:

You aren't aware of the thirty-two times they dug in the wrong place because they save scummed until they found your base.

I am talking about inside the mountains which you don't know what is inside until you explore it and not the outside....they dig straight to a room that is located deep inside the mountain that they should not possibly know about that its there....but they somehow without any logic at all know...that is my point

I don't know about wrong places you are talking about but they dig a straight line direct into the room hidden inside the mountain...so they are 100% accurate....they somehow know where rooms are located...and you do not know what is located inside the mountain until you explore it...so that has no logic at all on how they know

Quote from: NemesisN on July 30, 2015, 05:30:57 PM

Quote from: Devon_v on July 30, 2015, 01:41:18 PM
You have complete satellite coverage of everything not surrounded by mountains the moment you land on the planet.

So do they.

OR:

You aren't aware of the thirty-two times they dug in the wrong place because they save scummed until they found your base.

I am talking about inside the mountains which you don't know what is inside until you explore it and not the outside....they dig straight to a room that is located deep inside the mountain that they should not possibly know about that its there....but they somehow without any logic at all know...that is my point

I don't know about wrong places you are talking about but they dig a straight line direct into the room hidden inside the mountain...so they are 100% accurate....they somehow know where rooms are located...and you do not know what is located inside the mountain until you explore it...so that has no logic at all on how they know

Seems like a dream.  They are digging deep into your mountain.  You should have plenty of time to come up with a plan of attack.  Should be easy.  I just dont see the big deal here it s way better then having the same 2 attacks over and over again.  siege and raid. 

Well then where would sappers dig if not into your base? Would they dig into a random rock?

Quote from: Segrog on July 30, 2015, 09:15:42 PM
Well then where would sappers dig if not into your base? Would they dig into a random rock?

Actually, that sounds hilarious.

"We've been digging for hours! Are you sure this is the right mountain?"
"Of course I'm sure! Look, I can see light. Let's just break this next one down and we're in!"

They break the last one and find themselves on the other side of a mountain, no base in sight.

More hilarious: They dig straight into a room full of sarcophagi and get killed by mechanoid guards.

Or they dig and the ceiling collapses and rock blocks the door way so they starve to death while you laugh at them and then take their bodys and put them in your trophy room.

The last time I was visited by some sapper, they were spawned on the other side of a rock cliff and start digging straight through it. The hole is way off my base and by the time they pop out the other side, they are already starved and mentally broken.

I think it's the pathfinding ability of the sapper (lol) they just path straight to a part of your base regardless of the time it take and the lulz happen. Least threatening raider ever.

Quote from: Segrog on July 30, 2015, 09:15:42 PM
Well then where would sappers dig if not into your base? Would they dig into a random rock?

they should dig around the main wall that you put where your entry for colony is....they can know where the colony base is because there is a wall in front with turrets....and not dig somewhere far away from that and dig straight in into a hidden room and not even try to go behind the main wall....they just know where a room deep inside the mountain is which is far away from the main wall

Quote from: NemesisN on July 31, 2015, 07:09:41 AM

Quote from: Segrog on July 30, 2015, 09:15:42 PM
Well then where would sappers dig if not into your base? Would they dig into a random rock?

they should dig around the main wall that you put where your entry for colony is....they can know where the colony base is because there is a wall in front with turrets....and not dig somewhere far away from that and dig straight in into a hidden room and not even try to go behind the main wall....they just know where a room deep inside the mountain is which is far away from the main wall

here is a screenshoot example of what I am talking about

(http://i.imgur.com/f2aCzh6.jpg)

Welcome to anti-Killbox measures...

Easy to rationalize your picture. The Raiders clearly saw that you had a lot of fortification and that going straight would be suicide, so they wanted to build a tunnel that went around it.
Luckily for them, it turn out you had a room here and it didn't took long.

Quote from: Kegereneku on July 31, 2015, 02:10:23 PM
Welcome to anti-Killbox measures...

Easy to rationalize your picture. The Raiders clearly saw that you had a lot of fortification and that going straight would be suicide, so they wanted to build a tunnel that went around it.
Luckily for them, it turn out you had a room here and it didn't took long.

This sums it up.  We wont ever have an AI capable of making human level decisions in this game so give up on that.  For now the best solution is to have something that isnt senselessly random in its direction but not running into the guns.  For now what we got is fine.  Could maybe get some tweaking but ultimately it wont ever be perfect. 

In principal I do agree that the AI shouldnt know where our base is if its hidden under a mountain.  After all we dont know about the hidden areas even if we can see the rest of the map. 

Quote from: Kegereneku on July 31, 2015, 02:10:23 PM
Welcome to anti-Killbox measures...

Easy to rationalize your picture. The Raiders clearly saw that you had a lot of fortification and that going straight would be suicide, so they wanted to build a tunnel that went around it.
Luckily for them, it turn out you had a room here and it didn't took long.

no...they do not go around it....they could dig behind the defense on the mountains behind the open space shown where colony is there is a open field behind those mountains with no defense....but they always dig straight to a hidden room inside the mountain far away from the known location of the colony....how is that building a tunnel when they aim in a completely different direction

Easy to rationalize as well...
When you have to avoid a place ostensibly filled with gun, the logical solution is to give a large leeway, not dig straight around and face the guards stationed close by.
It make more than enough sense.

Listen, you are just mad they didn't go straight at range of your killbox. It was a nice and simple protection before but it could be abused easily.

We KNOW the raider went straight for your room because they "saw it". But as long as it can be rationalized (and it always can, because Rimworld is big on Storytelling) this isn't a problem.
I don't know the full size of your base, but so far I -human- would definitively NOT attack around your wall, knowing the guards will be close. Plus, you actually have a door in that general direction of the base, if I raided would actually dig here as well in the hope of meeting a tunnel leading to the least defended part.
Be happy they can't actually attack by surprise (fog of war) and dig preemptively.

Aside,
As long as you have a door to the outside that visitor can see within the years, the raider will know you are here. Point. HELL, even with basic thermal-camera you can detect any artificial source of heat. And with regular observation, knowing what you trade, it is possible to guess what is inside.
When you have 10 bionics pawns living in a GRANITE mountain, wearing Devilstrand Power-armor with Legendary Sword/Riffle, you ain't looking at an harmless tiny farm.

Once again you are missing the point....there is no kill box inside (behind the walls) there is no real defense actually then my colony with rifles....so even if they know what is located behind the walls they  had no reason to avoid digging around it...its just a open field we can do battle instead they decide to go in the hidden room cause fire and destroy everything

also what do you mean they "saw" my room ? How can they see a room hidden inside the walls when I the player can't see the rooms hidden inside the mountains or rooms that are covered with no entrance what is inside it....how is that fair ?

I am not mad you are just making this up now and you are being aggressive and insulting without reason saying that...I would guess that you are the one who is mad because you have a need to insult me

also there is no Combat Droids in the field behind the walls....nobody has devilstrand armor and nobody is armed with legendary weapons.....not to mention your "thermal-camera" explanation which is a made up thing since there is no such thing mentioned in Dev Blog

here is another example with the picture

(http://i.imgur.com/yhV80wK.png)

Sappers are really bad and not polished. They should know where to dig, but not like that - they just KNOW. No spies etc. they KNOW and will KNOW about new structures, which is fucking really bad. Without spies mechanic sappers are the worst mechanic in the game. This is why i didn't play in Alpha 11 for more than 5 hours on ice sheep (which is pretty easy without Superior Crafting).

I like hardcore games, but i like realistic games which result in hardcore game, but i don't like games that are hard, because there is so many unlogicial mechanics that are hard and they result in heart-breaking. The worst what can happen to player in game is game over due to unlogicial and very annoying mechanic.

Rainbox six vegas for example. On single missions (you choose map and you must kill all enemies), ALL enemies KNOW where you're hiding if you're hiding or playing sneaky game. If player will wait more than 30 secs he will earn a wave of terrorists - this is unlogicial and annoying mechanic like sappers in Rimworld.

Quote from: Adamiks on August 02, 2015, 05:44:24 AM
Sappers are really bad and not polished. They should know where to dig, but not like that - they just KNOW. No spies etc. they KNOW and will KNOW about new structures, which is fucking really bad. Without spies mechanic sappers are the worst mechanic in the game. This is why i didn't play in Alpha 11 for more than 5 hours on ice sheep (which is pretty easy without Superior Crafting).

exactly my point

It is the future, maybe they have thermal x ray goggles. They are after all thieves of all things and this is the future. There is also ultra sound devices today that can be used to show pockets / hollow spots underground. Even oil companies have devices that can locate oil. Just add a few thousand years on to technology and there is your reason for pirates knowing where to dig.

Here's a neat trick. Make the mountain areas near the borders mini turret rooms. Have a switch further in the town to flip if they manage to break through. I've also found if you leave about ten clicks of mountain and outside alone they do not dig through it but look for thin spots. One final note, pill boxes scattered around. Lots of them, I like to do 8 turrets in darkness with there own power and batteries. This also helps on drop pod enemies.   

Edit - Maybe Plast walls could act like insulation and prevent this ultra sound locate from happening. Very expensive wall but it doesn't let them know where the base is in mountain / hill.

The way it is now, the enemy will just path straight to a point of your base closest to their spawn point follow a path of least resistant or the straight path for sapper hence they will path straight to your base through the mountain side or any obstacles actually. The current counter measure is to line your base with a 'heat trench' made of good material to skew their calculation.

There are some experiment I'd like to test:
1. The ant line experiment: Predict their digging path and build a wall across it, see if they change direction. (Your pawns are know to not realize path change until they walk face first into the wall)
2. The Cosmetic experiment: Line the rock with wall except for one single tile of raw rock, see if they prioritize the natural rock instead of artificial one.

Quote from: xlockeed on August 02, 2015, 09:22:44 PM
It is the future, maybe they have thermal x ray goggles. They are after all thieves of all things and this is the future. There is also ultra sound devices today that can be used to show pockets / hollow spots underground. Even oil companies have devices that can locate oil. Just add a few thousand years on to technology and there is your reason for pirates knowing where to dig.

Here's a neat trick. Make the mountain areas near the borders mini turret rooms. Have a switch further in the town to flip if they manage to break through. I've also found if you leave about ten clicks of mountain and outside alone they do not dig through it but look for thin spots. One final note, pill boxes scattered around. Lots of them, I like to do 8 turrets in darkness with there own power and batteries. This also helps on drop pod enemies.   

Edit - Maybe Plast walls could act like insulation and prevent this ultra sound locate from happening. Very expensive wall but it doesn't let them know where the base is in mountain / hill.

If AI can use this high tech why players can't? The answer is - because Tynan want to make game unlogicially hard.

Realistic AI tunneling is srs bisness.

Quote from: Adamiks on August 03, 2015, 03:07:01 AM
If AI can use this high tech why players can't? The answer is - because Tynan want to make game unlogicially hard.

If players can pause the game then why AI can't?
If players can place turrets why AI sieges can't?
If players can switch off turrets why AI can't?
If players can deconstruct things in an instant why AI can't?
If players can browse the forums for mods why AI can't?
If players can debate how sappers know this shit is hidden under the mountain why AI can't?
That was joke. No h8 intended, k?
But seriously, I got a "I can't do what the AI can't. It's unfair." vibe from your tone.

Your issue is that this mechanic makes it harder and unfun for you, at least that's what I think.
Care to expand on how? Is it too unbelievable and unrealistic? It breaks the game for you cause its hard to predict and thus prepare against?

Again, no h8 and insult intended.
I honestly find it fun and a nice little break from the killbox meatgrinder.

Sidenote: A raider engineer equipped with EMPs and capable of deconstructing walls, turrets and vital equipment would be a very interesting addition to the game. IMO

Edit: Edited to make myself look less like an asshole jerk.

For NemesisN's issue.

It's more of how the game can't give a reasonable answer as to why sappers are tunneling deep into the mountain instead of just going around his defenses. Using the player's inability to see inside mountains as basis. That's what I got from all this, at least.

SOLUTION?! ALLOW US TO SEE INTO THE MOUNTAINS, THEN IT CAN BE JUSTIFIED.

"If players can pause the game then why AI can't?"
Because player need to think for even 50+ colonists and is a human, when AI can control +100 colonists and will don't need to lag if you have good computer (btw, lags = AI pause)

"If players can place turrets why AI sieges can't?"
They can build mortars. I would to see another type of attack, like ultra siege when AI can build defenses like players.

"If players can switch off turrets why AI can't?"
If someone built a turret without any security (code etc) on it then he must be dumb like hell.

"If players can deconstruct things in an instant why AI can't?"
They can now - sappers. And remember about all these tools that colonists "have" (don't exactly :/, game limitation)

"If players can browse the forums for mods why AI can't?"
"AI" is browsing this whole forum 24/7 - Google. Yeah this isn't exactly "AI" but "AI" is just a raw code, like Google searching.

"If players can debate how sappers know this shit is hidden under the mountain why AI can't?"
Wait....

"Your issue is that this mechanic makes it harder and unfun for you, at least that's what I think.
Care to expand on how? Is it too unbelievable and unrealistic? It breaks the game for you cause its hard to predict and thus prepare against?"

I don't like unlogicial mechanics that are constructed to kill a player. For example building a power with bare hands is unlogicial, but c'mon would you wait 5 hours to build a room? This type of mechanics are unlogicial, but practical, because without them game would be boring and unfun, when unlogicial mechanics like AI that know where your base is even if your base is hidden is really annoying. Tynan said that sappers are good because they kill killbox mechanic, but look - with sappers there is small number of strategies that are good for killing sappers, so in general sappers make game very annoying and unfun for me. They should be polished so they wouldn't know where to dig exactly, but they would know where your entrance is and they would know where turrets are if someone escaped and they should avoid them digging somewhere where there is no turrets but in random distant from the turrets.

if AI had x-ray or any device or method to locate your colony hidden rooms then that would be mentioned in the Dev Blog

you keep imagining things (maybe, maybe, maybe)...they were never mentioned in Dev Blog....everything new that is added to the game is mentioned in Dev Blog....if AI had x-ray or any extra device on their advantage why would developer left out mentioning that in Dev Blog when he mentions everything that is added there

Quote from: NemesisN on August 03, 2015, 01:35:04 PM
if AI had x-ray or any device or method to locate your colony hidden rooms then that would be mentioned in the Dev Blog

you keep imagining things (maybe, maybe, maybe)...they were never mentioned in Dev Blog....everything new that is added to the game is mentioned in Dev Blog....if AI had x-ray or any extra device on their advantage why would developer left out mentioning that in Dev Blog when he mentions everything that is added there

Should something official be mentioned in the Dev Blog, you would be okay with it?

"Alpha 11f - Sappers have special buildings of their own, that's how they know stuff. They have some sort of geological x-ray machine that they use from their base to see your base layout and plan ahead. Though you can't really build it yourself just like with guns, armor and other things. Each faction has a special building that they can create on their base. Yours are spaceships. Tribals have cloning labs. And the Outlanders have... I have no idea."

I'm sorry but right now, we're pretty much left on our own to make sense of it.

How can colonists make advanced auto-turrets with only scraps of steel?
How can colonists mine stuff without even holding a pickaxe? Do they use their hands? They punch rocks and they sparkle wtf?
How exactly do we know when a raid is happening or a visitors are coming? How are we able to differentiate them? Yahoo mail?

Quote from: Adamiks on August 03, 2015, 11:08:08 AM
[Snip snip snip]

I guess this is more of a personal preference. Unlogical things are ok as long as they either make sense or are fun. With sappers, as you said, there isn't much you can do against them. For you that's no fun. Well, I can't tell you that you're playing the game wrong. Probably the best you can do is hope that the bossman sees this as an issue and create a better AI ASAP. And honestly, that may be quite unlikely.

Though, what would just tunneling around your defenses do for you? It would make sense more? Wouldn't that still be quite annoying for you since they are still tunneling? You still won't be able to use different strategies. The only difference there's likely less vital equipment that would get destroyed.




P.S. Still, no h8 intended. Should my questions sound sarcastic-ish or belittling

It adds a challenge. If anything Mr.T is wanting to do away with kill boxes and turtling. I still like making mountain bases and when sappers come along I get the snipers out. Easy does it, even melee make short work of these types. I understand your comfort zone is breached  ;) , the game is making you engage instead of hide behind mountain overhead cover. Trust me it's funner to win and lose a few. It adds depth and flavor. Try to make an out in the open fort. Then try and top that one. Then go and try it on a ice sheet.  Or play in peaceful / easy mode *shrug

It is still in alpha so maybe he will tweak the ai. I like it, nice change of pace when you get an ambush ready and the enemy takes a detour and begins digging. Gives you that good old "oh sh!t moment" .

Their issue with it is not that it breaches their comfort zone, but rather they aren't getting acceptable answers as to why the AI is digging directly into their vital rooms that they shouldn't know about instead of just going around their defenses.

Summary: I want better AI logic and pathing. The current one is unacceptable and very annoying.

While improvements would be good, I believe the majority is pretty much ok with the current mechanics. Again, it's just up to Mr. T to decide if this is something to prioritize.

Quote from: A Friend on August 03, 2015, 09:28:05 PM


Should something official be mentioned in the Dev Blog, you would be okay with it?

"Alpha 11f - Sappers have special buildings of their own, that's how they know stuff. They have some sort of geological x-ray machine that they use from their base to see your base layout and plan ahead. Though you can't really build it yourself just like with guns, armor and other things. Each faction has a special building that they can create on their base. Yours are spaceships. Tribals have cloning labs. And the Outlanders have... I have no idea."

and where did you read or find this ?? there is no Alpha 11f first of all....take a screenshot of this being in Dev Blog because there is no such thing like this you wrote right here in Dev Blog

"With sappers, as you said, there isn't much you can do against them. For you that's no fun. Well, I can't tell you that you're playing the game wrong."

No, there is a lot of ways to fight them easily, and you know why? Because AI of sappers (and raiders in general) is kinda dumb (no offence to Tynan, greating a good AI is really hard, i know) so player can use this to create a killboxes even for sappers. For example, you dig into mountain, where mountain is on the right side of the map, you dig your base really deep creating only coridor for let's say 50-100 blocks. You put a normal killbox next to entrance and you build a line of turrets and traps in the walls 10-20 blocks deep in the mountain. Sappers, of course will go ahead and dig to to another turrets, because they're too dump to dig in another place 50-100 blocks and then turn into room/coridor (they should know where the coridor is, if they know where entrance is, also they should know where turrets are after one of them escaped in sapper squad). You know what i mean? Sappers just dig stright forward and this make them easy to kill.

And about hard games - you're really wrong. I'm actually playing in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Shadow of Chernobyl on veteran (hard, there is also really hard) with mod that makes guns more realistic and you know what makes this really hard? AI that isn't so dump to not throw a grenades at me   if they have them or to heal their companions. Also NPC's with mission can easily die too. For example today bandits killed two NPCs with missions (of course if they die you will can play storyline, you get info from corpses), and without quick saving you can't do anything about it. You lost 2500 rubels because NPC died?(?)? You should fight better!

And THIS is hard game and not so annoying mechanic like in Rimworld. In stalker (with this mod) ai is really good and if NPC get killed of you get killed then you can blame only yourself, because NPCs magically don't know where you are.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 04, 2015, 01:56:14 AM

Quote from: A Friend on August 03, 2015, 09:28:05 PM


Should something official be mentioned in the Dev Blog, you would be okay with it?

"Alpha 11f - Sappers have special buildings of their own, that's how they know stuff. They have some sort of geological x-ray machine that they use from their base to see your base layout and plan ahead. Though you can't really build it yourself just like with guns, armor and other things. Each faction has a special building that they can create on their base. Yours are spaceships. Tribals have cloning labs. And the Outlanders have... I have no idea."

and where did you read or find this ?? there is no Alpha 11f first of all....take a screenshot of this being in Dev Blog because there is no such thing like this you wrote right here in Dev Blog

That was a mockup I made. But should Tynan actually post something like that, would you be ok with it? Since our explanations aren't "Official".

Quote from: Adamiks on August 04, 2015, 06:48:54 AM
[Snip Snip]

Man, I'm no expert on video games, so I don't have much say.

I don't really have a clear definition of a Good or Bad AI. I can tolerate slight flaws, but not gamebreaking ones.

Example of things I'm ok with: Stealth games where enemies can quickly spot you but because you weren't being smart.
Example of things I'm not ok with: Stealth games where enemies can instantly spot you without any indication, from behind that dense bush. Fuck those AIs.

For Rimworld, I have no problem with the current AI. I haven't really found anything really annoying or gamebreaking yet nor is it boring. Better and smarter AIs that you also wish for would be a welcome addition though. Overall, this is still pretty much personal preference and tolerance of certain issues. With this AI tunneling discussion thing, it's more of "How long will I be able to put up with this?" and deciding if it's something Mr. T should prioritize.

You may get "Oh don't worry Tynan, you can focus on the other features." or "Man, this thing needs to be fixed ASAP." depending on who you ask.

Regarding hard games... eh... I guess, Dwarf Fortress?
It has smackton of mechanics that makes the game brutal and somewhat unfair. I loved every minute of it and every glorious downfall of a fortress. Im a masochist.

TL;DR: AIs having better tunneling mechanics is a very good thing. Is it really that important to shift focus on and released soon though?

so you posted something based on your imagination....look I am not here to talk about fairy tales I am here to talk about in game features that exist and that are not made up...making things up and having a discussion about it is pointless...so stick to the game and what exist and not your imagination

and why are you talking about Dwarf Fortress ? we are talking about RimWorld here...if you are going to start comparing which game is more difficult then why don't you mention Bloodborne or Meat Boy or every other difficult game out there

stick to the RimWorld will you ?

Quote from: Adamiks on August 04, 2015, 06:48:54 AM

No, there is a lot of ways to fight them easily, and you know why? Because AI of sappers (and raiders in general) is kinda dumb (no offence to Tynan, greating a good AI is really hard, i know) so player can use this to create a killboxes even for sappers. For example, you dig into mountain, where mountain is on the right side of the map, you dig your base really deep creating only coridor for let's say 50-100 blocks. You put a normal killbox next to entrance and you build a line of turrets and traps in the walls 10-20 blocks deep in the mountain. Sappers, of course will go ahead and dig to to another turrets, because they're too dump to dig in another place 50-100 blocks and then turn into room/coridor (they should know where the coridor is, if they know where entrance is, also they should know where turrets are after one of them escaped in sapper squad). You know what i mean? Sappers just dig stright forward and this make them easy to kill.

can you post a example picture ? its hard to imagine what exactly you are saying

Maybe the raiders have a satellite that can cycle through temperature etc to see what is inside mountains or whether they are hollow - From a story side of things.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 04, 2015, 08:45:13 AM
so you posted something based on your imagination....look I am not here to talk about fairy tales I am here to talk about in game features that exist and that are not made up...making things up and having a discussion about it is pointless...so stick to the game and what exist and not your imagination

and why are you talking about Dwarf Fortress ? we are talking about RimWorld here...if you are going to start comparing which game is more difficult then why don't you mention Bloodborne or Meat Boy or every other difficult game out there

stick to the RimWorld will you ?

Woah. Ok.
We get that you demand better AIs. Alright, we get that.

But you're also searching for an explanation as to how raiders know this shit.

Quote from: NemesisN on July 29, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
but the stupid thing about that is how the hell they know where exact to dig ?

Forum people are giving out their ideas. You reject them cause nowhere in the game nor in Tynan's blog does he state that, I try to ask IF he does state it, would you be OK with his explanations cause it's "Official".

Let's try a different example.
You ask how colonists mine rocks if they aren't even holding tools. The game gives no explanation. We are left to imagine. We imagine them holding a pickaxe and go with that answer. But since it's not coming from Tynan, our imagination is wrong. That's how it sounds right now. Okay.

Also the Dwarf Fortress thing was meant for Adamiks regarding AIs and unfair mechanics.

Damn, I'm feeling uncomfortable. Fine, I won't participate in this anymore.

Edited.
Edit 2: Since there's pretty much little to discuss and this in general is a good idea. I propose this just be turned into a suggestion. Better sapper AI pathing. Add polls as well.

Quick picture in Paint. Don't complain about quality, please ;D
(http://i.imgur.com/1LRJMJm.png)

Sappers shouldn't know exactly where the small room or room is, but they should know that if there is a entrance then there must a base, so they should start search that base by digging in directions next to killbox instead digging exactly to the room.

To A Friend - i'm not trying to be rude, if i was rude in some post, sorry, i agree about this imagination stuff though, but i can't imagine that my colonists not died due to unlogicial sappers mechanic ;d

Quote from: Adamiks on August 04, 2015, 09:40:18 AM

Sappers shouldn't know exactly where the small room or room is, but they should know that if there is a entrance then there must a base, so they should start search that base by digging in directions next to killbox instead digging exactly to the room.

your picture is completely different from mine...if you see my on 1st page on top...in your picture AI tries to avoid main defense in front by dinging around it...which is not wrong...but in mine if you can see they go far far away from the entrance and where the base is....really by far...how do they know how deep my base inside the mountain is ?

in your picture your kill box and main gate is just in front of your base and small room inside the mountain so its logical for them to know there is a base behind it

in my picture hidden room is far far away from main entrance and defense so they could not possibly know that there is a room deep inside specific location of the mountain far away from the main entrance...but they do know and that is the problem

just take a look at mine picture and yours....you will see the difference

Quote from: pigman999999999 on August 04, 2015, 10:40:05 AM
wow NemesisN your gamer pic def shows how you feel and that you like a show that took  7 eps of some guy standing with a ball over his head.

its just a picture and it does not show anything about me...you just imagine things from your head

and that "7 eps of some guy standing with a ball over his head" makes no sense of whatever you meant with that

Yeah... I made that picture wrong. That small room should like 50 blocks down from the normal Room and there should be a coridor from Room to Small Room and my point is that they shouldn't dig straight forward to that corridor that is way into the mountain, but they should "search" for the room close to the killbox digging in another directions when they are in mountain and they see that there is no room (they shouldn't know where the room is, but they should know that there must be somewhere next to the killbox, in general they should act like humans). This digging straight forward to closest room is really anoying and make sappers unlogicial and unpredictable.

Ok, I can understand Sappers/their AI being annoying, especially if you rely on defense. I can understand that you think they shouldnt know everything.
But there is just one favor I ask you:
Please stop saying something is wrong just "because its not Tynans Blog", especially if its an opinion (not a hard fact) or a suggestion of how to deal with Sappers (I know they don't answer why sappers habe that knowledge, but they are giving you ideas of how to deal with them without Colonists Dying).
The fact that you keep insisting on this notion of if-its-not-in-the-Blog-its-wrong makes you look like a Douche, or even a Troll (especially because its almost(!) the only reply you give).

Besides, I know Tynan documents almost everything (and I love that), but he doesnt write down everything, so even if its not in the Blog, it can be true:
-For example, he doesn't write down every Name he addes to the game, and yet these Names exist.
-He doesnt write down the exact code for how Sappers work, but if someone writes in the Forums how Sappers work, its still true even though Tynan hasnt written in the Blog exactly how the Code works.
-Tynan doesn't write why only 3 people made it, its just given and its up to you to make a Story out of it, and just because the Story isnt confirmed to be true by Tynan, it still can still be true

TL,DR:
Please Stop saying opinions are wrong because some guy didnt explicitly say the opinion was right. It makes you look like an a**ehole. Also, if you don't like Sappers you can Mod your Game to make them never pop up, or you can try to mod their AI.

Edit (4.8.2015): fixed a typo

Dawa1147  how is telling me that Sappers have X-Ray a suggestion on how to deal with them ? I never told anyone about Dev Blog or they are wrong when they gave me a suggestion or opinions on how to deal with them...only the ones who told me about X-Ray thing....and how is that a suggestion on how to deal with them in your head ? how can telling me that they have X-Ray possibly help me ?

so No I do not tell people about Dev Blog who give me ideas or suggestions on how to defend against them...I only tell people about Dev Blog when they start talking about X-Ray and those kind of things that they imagined

how about you read the conversation and my comments correctly before you decide to post a insult to me based on your ignorance

 And how would you code that? Your asking for more then you think. It's not a simple flip of switch. I could only see two things here.
1.Target visible structures only = kill blocks to distract enemy around edge of map.
2.Target structures within a set parameter = if structures are deep inside a mountain sappers won't target it unless they come across an area that triggers them to dig. Otherwise they target a structure from a distance and bomb it.
3.Extravagant targeting code where the sappers do random sh!t but never heat seek right to base = That's a ton of line code to do just for one enemy type.

One and two in my opinion could be tweaked but the end result would be exploitable and thus a new can of worms to code. Three is asking too much from Tynan, unless he is a wizard and can spin out unique ai targeting. Be honest, you do not like random holes in your mountain? Zero deaths and zero breaches, this is what you want yes?

Zero deaths and zero breaches ?

No...I never said that I want that....please do not make up things about me that I never said....look at my picture that I posted on 1st page on top....I explained everything there

Developer don't have to do anything if he does not want to or finds difficult...this is just an opinion of mine about this feature....thats it....just like every other person on forum that creates topic on what he likes in the game and what he does not like....and what he would like to see to change

option a) re de sapper AI code completely from scratch. eval: 250h.

option b) just write some lameass text excuse for current sapper AI behaviour. eval: 5min.


now, take a educated guess which option Tynan would chose?

so, how about you just accept sappers as they are and make up your own favourite story to justify their behaviour?

my personal pick: visitors that roam my base are spying on my instalallations. end of story.

I am not a little kid to use my imagination to explain things

If you prefer imagination over reality that is your own thing...go to RimWorld and play it like that

as for me I will keep suggesting things and complaining about things I would like to see to be changed....that is the point of Alpha games that is the point of Forums and discussions about the Alpha games

As for the developer he does not have to do anything he does not want to do...its up to him

If he put a explanation of lets say the "X-Ray" or something like that I would still search for a explanation why do we don't get those devices when we kill or capture the Sappers....so in short writing down that they have a some sort of device without adding it actually to the game would not keep me quiet


also to add on: I do not allow visitors inside my base I shoot them on sight...so there is no spies

How about:

Because what you want requires a mountain of programming, for very little payoff? Creating an AI which could tunnel through the mountains in a directed, but not 'all knowing' but also not gamable way would take a lot of time. It's just simpler for them to come in, randomly target your base on a place away from turrets and go from their. What your asking for implies that the sappers would learn - that's some pretty hefty AI for a simple cog.

Also I can 'explain' the sappers pretty easy. They don't know your base is there. That's just a random location they happened to dig in. They are just incredibly lucky.  They also thought 'this colony has been here a while, it's to probably pretty big inside that mountain. Bet if we dug here we would find a room pretty quick'

Like I already said a couple of times before the developer does not have to do anything if he does not want to if its too much work for him....but I have to repeat myself all the time

also its not random...they dig with 100% accuracy into the hidden room...not missing 1 time....every time I play when I get attacked by them they dig into the hidden room...every single time...that is not luck...100% is not luck and its not random

also that logic of them thinking maybe you have a big base because you been long in the world makes no sense....I dig a giant tunnel down the mountain right when I start the game to collect enough recourses and create a hidden room for batteries storage....so that explanation of them thinking you been long enough to have a giant base that leads into hidden room even though you recently started the game makes no sense at all

same thing with "spies", "x-rays" and all that kind of made up things...those are your opinions based on made up things on what you want to believe in not the actual facts that exist in the game....we can discus about that all day long but its pointless since those explanations are made up and don't exist in the game

They just save scum until they find a room.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 06:48:43 AM
same thing with "spies", "x-rays" and all that kind of made up things...those are your opinions based on made up things on what you want to believe in not the actual facts that exist in the game....we can discus about that all day long but its pointless since those explanations are made up and don't exist in the game

so, basically, you want Tynan to spend X hours on coding something because YOU lack of imagination?

you ask why enemies could have spies and x-ray and you don't?
well, why do mechanoids have evil ships and you don't?

we could come up with a list of gazillion of things currently, that enemies have and you don't... so why does only the x-ray idea bother you?

i tell you why: because you have no imagination whatsoever


btw, one of your own guys could be a spy

Quote from: zandadoum on August 05, 2015, 07:45:39 AM

so, basically, you want Tynan to spend X hours on coding something because YOU lack of imagination?

you ask why enemies could have spies and x-ray and you don't?
well, why do mechanoids have evil ships and you don't?

we could come up with a list of gazillion of things currently, that enemies have and you don't... so why does only the x-ray idea bother you?

i tell you why: because you have no imagination whatsoever


btw, one of your own guys could be a spy

since you ignore reading what I already wrote down a couple of times...I will give you a screenshot so I do not repeat myself all the time and write the same things over and over again because you refuse to read

(http://i.imgur.com/H561Jje.png)

Mechanoids are different race they are not humans....I am talking about human race the faction of the same race as yours....and you have your own ship that you can build in case you did not know that

name some things that enemy human Faction have and you don't except these Sappers...name at least 1 or 2 things since you mention there is currently gazillion which I hardly believe that you understand what gazillion means

also that explanation "one of your own colony is spy" is also made up

I don't have a big imagination because I am an adult and not a kid....I do not talk about fairy tales or live in a dream world

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 08:38:57 AMI don't have a big imagination because I am an adult and not a kid....I do not talk about fairy tales or live in a dream world

You mean like the make believe worlds created in our imagination via video games?

Also.... No insult intended but... thats sad man. Having an imagination has nothing to be with being a child. This game was once just something imagined by Ty....

doubleplusalso - As a person I would never mine into someone else's base right next to the door. I mean that's where all the defenses would be. I would just pick a random (not actually random - it would actually be influenced by all the calculations my human brain is able to do easily, something that isn't simple for an coded AI, but for all intensive purposes it would seem random) spot in the mountain away from their main entrance and drill into that. I reckon I would be able to drill into a room more often then not just by using logic. Since coding an AI with this thought process would be a massive undertaking, I am happy for them to just know where the base is and drill into it. Would much prefer them doing that, then just drilling into useless rock 'somewhere over there' because they have no idea where my base is. At least that brings a challenge.

I created this topic to have a serious discussion about it and not a discussion about fairy tales...the fact that a lot of people are making up things instead of having a real conversation is completely pointless

imagination is something that is imagined in your head and that does not exist....video game is pretty real you can interact with it even though its a virtual world it still exist on your PC that you can interact unlike imagination that you can not interact with because its in your head


Developer of this game did imagine a game and made it real....that is the point...its no longer a imagination its a thing you can interact with now


anyway besides that I am not here to talk about made up things I just don't get it why a lot of people just keep making up things instead of sticking on what the game has actually to offer

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 08:38:57 AMI don't have a big imagination because I am an adult and not a kid....I do not talk about fairy tales or live in a dream world

oh i see. only kids have imagination?

so... books and movies are made by kids? brb, gonna tell George R.R. Martin and J.K. Rowling to stop writing right away!!! Can't tell Terry Pratchet as he's dead already tho.

you don't have a big imagination, not because you're an adult, but becuase you're YOU. I am 41, I have lot's of imagination. Enough at least to imagine it's not worthwhile to re-code all of enemy AI just because YOU lack imagination for such a trivial and simple thing...


you want a serious discussion?

here: sapper AI is fine, get over it.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 08:55:58 AM
I created this topic to have a serious discussion about it and not a discussion about fairy tales...the fact that a lot of people are making up things instead of having a real conversation is completely pointless

imagination is something that is imagined in your head and that does not exist....video game is pretty real you can interact with it even though its a virtual world it still exist on your PC that you can interact unlike imagination that you can not interact with because its in your head


Developer of this game did imagine a game and made it real....that is the point...its no longer a imagination its a thing you can interact with now


anyway besides that I am not here to talk about made up things I just don't get it why a lot of people just keep making up things instead of sticking on what the game has actually to offer

Ok.

What the game has to offer: I can build a base. Pawns come and try and break it.

If the pawns don't know where my base is, they cant attack it, taking away a lot from what the game has to offer.

I get what you are saying - you don't like how the pawns can tell where everything is. How come you don't have a problem with the pawns spawning at the side of the map and then B-lining it right to your front door? They wouldn't have been able to see the door. They should have no idea where anything is. There was a giant mountain between where they spawned and the base - they should have spawned, seen the mountain and then thought 'oh well nothing here' and then left. Instead what they do is run straight around the mountain, using the shortest path between were they are and my door, as though they somehow knew where it way.

You have a problem with that too?

Quote from: zandadoum on August 05, 2015, 08:59:25 AM

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 08:38:57 AMI don't have a big imagination because I am an adult and not a kid....I do not talk about fairy tales or live in a dream world

oh i see. only kids have imagination?

so... books and movies are made by kids? brb, gonna tell George R.R. Martin and J.K. Rowling to stop writing right away!!! Can't tell Terry Pratchet as he's dead already tho.

you don't have a big imagination, not because you're an adult, but becuase you're YOU. I am 41, I have lot's of imagination. Enough at least to imagine it's not worthwhile to re-code all of enemy AI just because YOU lack imagination for such a trivial and simple thing...


you want a serious discussion?

here: sapper AI is fine, get over it.

you are being ridiculous now...movies exist they are made same as book...people have in their head what they want to create and they created it....X-ray's and spies are not in RimWorld get over that no matter how much you imagine that they are real they are not currently part of the game...why do you want to discuss about something that does not exist ? unlike books or movies that do exist

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on August 05, 2015, 09:08:47 AM

Ok.

What the game has to offer: I can build a base. Pawns come and try and break it.

If the pawns don't know where my base is, they cant attack it, taking away a lot from what the game has to offer.

I get what you are saying - you don't like how the pawns can tell where everything is. How come you don't have a problem with the pawns spawning at the side of the map and then B-lining it right to your front door? They wouldn't have been able to see the door. They should have no idea where anything is. There was a giant mountain between where they spawned and the base - they should have spawned, seen the mountain and then thought 'oh well nothing here' and then left. Instead what they do is run straight around the mountain, using the shortest path between were they are and my door, as though they somehow knew where it way.

You have a problem with that too?

well I am glad that you get what I am talking about

so let me answer your question....the AI spawns on edge of the map because that is where the map cuts off that is where they came from....where should AI spawn then in middle ? that would make less sense.....also some of them drop down in space pods which also makes sense

the door or your entrance to colony base is right outside...visible for everyone...that is why it makes sense for them to easily locate it...the map is not a open world its a small boxed world where they can easily locate your colony base that is outside....but my topic here is why they can locate hidden rooms inside even though you can't locate hidden rooms or anything behind the mountain walls covered with roof ?

Enemy faction which are humans have everything that your colony has...same advantages and abilities...Sappers ruin that fair play with their unexplained knowledge of hidden spaces inside the mountains

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 09:14:20 AM
you are being ridiculous now...movies exist they are made same as book...people have in their head what they want to create and they created it....X-ray's and spies are not in RimWorld get over that no matter how much you imagine that they are real they are not currently part of the game...why do you want to discuss about something that does not exist ? unlike books or movies that do exist

are you actually serious? are you trolling? do you suffer from OCD or are you just plain and normal stupid?
"movies exist they are made same as book...people have in their head what they want to create"
THATS CALLED IMAGINATION, you dummy

so, you're capable of accepting/imagining that mechanoids exists, that tribal tribes exist, that you dropped in a droppod onto a planet... but you're not capable of imagine ANY WAY WHATSOEVER that would justify sappers knowing your base layout?

let me ask you something different: if you're on a huge planet, on a huge map, hidden in the mountains... how did the raiders find your base in first place, hum? you don't have a problem with that it seems. and there is no explanation to it either anywhere on the "official changelog"

also explain this to me, and this actually IS in the changelog, i quote: "Enemies remember trap positions that their faction has encountered before, and avoid them." how is this possible, when i don't leave any survivors, hum?

so, how about you get your head out of your butt, stop asking for stupid uneeded changes and start to use YOUR IMAGINATION a little bit?

zandadoum if you think that my topic is unneeded then you are free to leave it...I have every right to post my likes and opinion on what I would like to see to be changed in game like every other person here

I do not know how old are you but you really do not use common sense by any means at all then to call people stupid, claim they have OCD which is really childish....I suggest that you google imagination because its already annoying that I need to explain to you the difference between something that exist and something that does not

like 10 times already I said its pointless to talk about something that (I will use Caps letters this time maybe you will get it) THE GAME DOES NOT HAVE to explain a feature that exists in game


and if you have problems with traps or anything else in the game feel free to make a topic about it and suggest a modification...that is the point of Alpha games....developers want peoples opinion on their game.....I do not use traps so I don't have a problem with that

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 09:23:19 AM

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on August 05, 2015, 09:08:47 AM

Ok.

What the game has to offer: I can build a base. Pawns come and try and break it.

If the pawns don't know where my base is, they cant attack it, taking away a lot from what the game has to offer.

I get what you are saying - you don't like how the pawns can tell where everything is. How come you don't have a problem with the pawns spawning at the side of the map and then B-lining it right to your front door? They wouldn't have been able to see the door. They should have no idea where anything is. There was a giant mountain between where they spawned and the base - they should have spawned, seen the mountain and then thought 'oh well nothing here' and then left. Instead what they do is run straight around the mountain, using the shortest path between were they are and my door, as though they somehow knew where it way.

You have a problem with that too?

well I am glad that you get what I am talking about

so let me answer your question....the AI spawns on edge of the map because that is where the map cuts off that is where they came from....where should AI spawn then in middle ? that would make less sense.....also some of them drop down in space pods which also makes sense

the door or your entrance to colony base is right outside...visible for everyone...that is why it makes sense for them to easily locate it...the map is not a open world its a small boxed world where they can easily locate your colony base that is outside....but my topic here is why they can locate hidden rooms inside even though you can't locate hidden rooms or anything behind the mountain walls covered with roof ?

Enemy faction which are humans have everything that your colony has...same advantages and abilities...Sappers ruin that fair play with their unexplained knowledge of hidden spaces inside the mountains

Yeah... You seemed to address my point, while at the same time, completely avoiding it. No I don't want pawns to spawn in the middle - that's obviously stupid. My point was that the enemy pawns can see through everything. They can see around mountains so that they know your base is on the other side. They can see thought mountains so they know your base is inside it.

Using your logic, my door SHOULDN'T visible for everyone - my door should be visible for people who can look at it. If there was a wall, mountain, or dog between the attacking pawn and the door, they should not know it was there because they couldn't see it and walk past it. You cant apply the 'they shouldn't be able to see it' logic to one thing, and not another.

The problem here is a simple suspension of belief - a simple thought process that most people use when enjoying a movie, book or video game, that you seem to think is evil and wrong. The pawns know where you are because if they didn't it would leave them wondering aimlessly around the map. If they didn't know you were in areas that they couldn't access, you could just move everyone into a different room and fool the AI.

AI is a difficult thing to create - when I look at a gap in the rocks, I see a potential choke point, evaluate the rocks behind them as a good fall back position, see the open area above that as flanking risk and a thousand other things. When the AI see it, they see it as a position that they can move to.

Currently when the sapper AI spawn, they calculate the quickest way into our 'base' (another problem with AI - I can tell that 'that' room was made entirely and solely to kill sappers in once they drill into it, the AI sees it as a room I created equal to the rest) and then drill their way in. This is so that time between knowing of the attack, and having to respond to it is as small as possible - if you give people to much time to prepare you start putting heavy responsibility on the combat AI, it has to be able to react to thousands of potential response that people could come up with AFTER the attack is started. If the response time is short, the AI simply has to take into account the current variables, make a plan of attack for that and follow it through, as the variables stay relatively the same.

If you remove the sappers ability to know where we are, once they spawn, they would then have to take the almost infinite possible variations of base designs into account and then actually evaluate WHERE they think the base is, and then act on that. As a example of the problems with this; what is a sapper to do is your external base consists entirely of a entrance door? Using your example, they would drill into the wall next to the door, as this was their only option (they don't know where anything else is). The means that the sapper AI is completely broken - a simple kill box behind the door means that their only available option is to drill into the kill-box. Another example; if my base has a 30m hallway before the 'base proper' the sappers would, again as their only option, start drilling next to the door, and if their aim wasn't on, continue drilling until either A: they died of starvation, or B: until they hit the edge of the map. This would mean that they also would have to account for NOT finding the base, which brings up all new questions of how long do they try? how far is 'too far'? etc etc.

This leaves us at a crossroad; either we accept that we have to suspend disbelief for a bit and accept that sappers know where you are, or Ty has to create a skynet level AI that can take into account the almost infinite defensive and constructive possibilities that are open to us and is able to attack them with human level intellect.

That or sappers get nerfed into uselessness because they are completely incapable of action.

you have a bird view of the map...you can see everything on the map that is outside including incoming enemies that are out of the range of your colony view and you can't see anything that is inside covered with roof and walls unless you explore it

AI should be able to do the same....that is my view of the situation you are talking about

also to add on Ty has not have to do anything even creating "skynet" AI if he does not want to

this is just my opinion and suggestion of modification...just trowing it out there...if he agrees with this he could modify (even he does not have to) if he is not interested then OK we move on

also AI can be created to act very human like...take Prison Architect for example...they act really human like....just an example of what AI can become

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 10:04:53 AM
also to add on Ty has not have to do anything even creating "skynet" AI if he does not want to

this is just my opinion and suggestion of modification...just trowing it out there...if he agrees with this he could modify (even he does not have to) if he is not interested then OK we move on

also AI can be created to act very human like...take Prison Architect for example...they act really human like....just an example of what AI can become

PA AI horrible. That is the worst example you could bring up. I.... I dont even know how to address that. The AI gets stuck on corners, doesn't evaluate anything other then 'whats my highest need' and even then badly (0 future vision), it can't think its way around locked door, doesnt take into account travel time at all, it... nah I'm not going into that I could write an entire essay on the problems with the PA AI, and how it doesn't even come close to 'human like'.

And back on topic, like I said in my previous post, how are you going to get around the problem that the AI now has to be able to think its way around the potential infinite design options that are available to the player, made harder by the fact the the AI is only aloud to 'see' the door to your base and nothing more?

I don't know what Alpha version of Prison Architect did you play or how long did you play it but they made quite a lot of changes and improved AI by far...they do not get stuck...they do act human like and they do act the way any human would in prison

AI in RimWorld should be able to see outside map same as you do...that means he should not be able to see hidden areas like you can't and be able to see everything that is uncovered with roof...but that is not the case he can see even hidden areas

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 09:45:55 AM
like 10 times already I said its pointless to talk about something that (I will use Caps letters this time maybe you will get it) THE GAME DOES NOT HAVE to explain a feature that exists in game

and another quote from you:

Quote
same thing with "spies", "x-rays" and all that kind of made up things...those are your opinions based on made up things on what you want to believe in not the actual facts that exist in the game...

how about you stop contradicting yourself and make up your mind?

- either you accept stuff that doesnt have an explanation, like raids knowing where, on a bigass planet, to find your base, or how to remember traps when no1 survived, or WHERE TO SAPPERS SHOULD DIG

- or you don't accept ANY of those concepts


the bottom line here is: you're too stupid to figure out how to deal with sappers, which you never will figure out on your own, as you lack of any sort of imagination and so you come here to whine about the AI.
hint: snipe them from behind while they dig. WOW! was so hard to figure out, hum?

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 10:01:08 AM
you have a bird view of the map...you can see everything on the map

you're getting more idiotic by the minute...
YOU, as THE PLAYER, have that bird view. your colonists DON'T. so, you what do you want, enemy raids to have same powers as COLONISTS or same power as PLAYER?

zandadoum you are acting really childish right now and ignorant

if you have problems with traps like I said make a topic about it...if you don't like my complaint about things I would like to see changed then leave the topic....I payed for the game I have every right to suggest changes like everyone else here...I already said that....why is it hard for you to read simple written stuff ?

and you can say that your colony has a bird view since they know exactly the direct path to animals when they hunt or things when the haul they never spend time searching for it but go directly to it same as enemy AI does to you


grow up

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 10:01:08 AM
you have a bird view of the map...you can see everything on the map that is outside including incoming enemies that are out of the range of your colony view and you can't see anything that is inside covered with roof and walls unless you explore it

AI should be able to do the same....that is my view of the situation you are talking about

And so does the AI, if you can see it, so can the AI....You can see your rooms inside the mountain, so can the AI.

You say you shot every visitor, but how many do you capture? Everyone of them reports back what they have seen. Once a trap has been seen by any AI, all AI's know about that trap. Same for your base layout, inside or outside the mountain.

You trade with the ships orbiting above the planet. Your pawns talk to those ships. Higher social skills changes prices, but what are social skills? The small talk, the get to know each other, giving and sharing of information... Nothing is hidden for long.

The sapper AI avoids defense locations. They target known rooms. How do they know about those rooms inside a mountain, loose lips sink ships, and every social interactions disseminates information.

A captured pawned, is carried into the prison, that event gives the AI KNOWLEDGE of the base layout.

Easiest way to defeat the sappers, engage them BEFORE they start digging.... the escorts will not even defend as a group, just wander back and forth... Alternative method, kill the sapper, easy to identify, he will have grenades, or molotives, once he is dead, the escorts attack the front door.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 10:21:08 AM
I don't know what Alpha version of Prison Architect did you play or how long did you play it but they made quite a lot of changes and improved AI by far...they do not get stuck...they do act human like and they do act the way any human would in prison

Been playing it since alpha1 a couple of years ago. Built my last 1000+ maxsec prison yesterday. The AI sucks. More gripes - only 5 guards will attack a prisoner at once meaning the ones that get stuck don't contribute to the fight leaving guards to walk past fights, guards cant be controlled (i.e: sent to attack and/or pull off an attack), prisoners wont take into account anything when considering their needs (will start fight because low hygiene needs on the way to lower hygiene needs), guards abandon positions without waiting for a replacement (especially painfull when remote doors come into it)

And you still managed to sidestep one of the biggest points in this whole argument.

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on August 05, 2015, 10:09:41 AMAnd back on topic, like I said in my previous post, how are you going to get around the problem that the AI now has to be able to think its way around the potential infinite design options that are available to the player, made harder by the fact the the AI is only aloud to 'see' the door to your base and nothing more?

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 10:37:32 AMwhy is it hard for you to read simple written stuff ?

Doubleplus

Quote from: TLHeart on August 05, 2015, 10:40:51 AM


And so does the AI, if you can see it, so can the AI....You can see your rooms inside the mountain, so can the AI.

You say you shot every visitor, but how many do you capture? Everyone of them reports back what they have seen. Once a trap has been seen by any AI, all AI's know about that trap. Same for your base layout, inside or outside the mountain.

You trade with the ships orbiting above the planet. Your pawns talk to those ships. Higher social skills changes prices, but what are social skills? The small talk, the get to know each other, giving and sharing of information... Nothing is hidden for long.

The sapper AI avoids defense locations. They target known rooms. How do they know about those rooms inside a mountain, loose lips sink ships, and every social interactions disseminates information.

A captured pawned, is carried into the prison, that event gives the AI KNOWLEDGE of the base layout.

Easiest way to defeat the sappers, engage them BEFORE they start digging.... the escorts will not even defend as a group, just wander back and forth... Alternative method, kill the sapper, easy to identify, he will have grenades, or molotives, once he is dead, the escorts attack the front door.

you can't see hidden rooms unless you discover it.....AI can...your hidden rooms should be hidden from AI....AI should see what you see that means the outside....your dugout space hidden in mountains should be only visible to you

the visitors that I capture never leave my prison alive....how can they possibly send something back if they are locked up in their prison with noting to contact their faction ? Their either end up joining me or executed...that is made up that makes no sense...same as that trading thing for them to give up information that is also made up

the prison is outside from my main base where hidden rooms are....your explanation of things does not make sense on how it works in RimWorld

yes I know I need to go offense on them...but it takes time for them to go there while they dig little by little every block...also there is a group of them awaiting for your ambush so its highly risky

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on August 05, 2015, 10:09:41 AMAnd back on topic, like I said in my previous post, how are you going to get around the problem that the AI now has to be able to think its way around the potential infinite design options that are available to the player, made harder by the fact the the AI is only aloud to 'see' the door to your base and nothing more?

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on August 05, 2015, 10:46:17 AM


Been playing it since alpha1 a couple of years ago. Built my last 1000+ maxsec prison yesterday. The AI sucks. More gripes - only 5 guards will attack a prisoner at once meaning the ones that get stuck don't contribute to the fight leaving guards to walk past fights, guards cant be controlled (i.e: sent to attack and/or pull off an attack), prisoners wont take into account anything when considering their needs (will start fight because low hygiene needs on the way to lower hygiene needs), guards abandon positions without waiting for a replacement (especially painfull when remote doors come into it)

And you still managed to sidestep one of the biggest points in this whole argument.

there was a lot of changes its currently in Alpha 35...you should try that one or watch a video and see how AI has advanced....I guess you are playing old Alphas that had a lot of issues and unfinished things...Prison Architect only has 1 Alpha to go before its final release so its 99% completed

the problems you mentioned are fixed...so yeah you should try the newest Alpha 35 and see how human like they really become


I think I answered your questions I don't think I avoided anything unless some of us 2 misunderstood something

the way I am dealing with the problem now is offense even though they do manage to dig tunnels half way trough my base until I reach them with my colony....AI can see pretty much everything given the fact they find a direct path to everything

you have schedules and a lot of possibility to control the guard

prisoners will sometimes start a fight because they have that kind of nature that is what makes them human like...they do go for highest priority need like if you need to take a piss really bad you will go to the bathroom first then do other things after that....makes them human like

everything  that you see in Prison Architect is how prisons in reality function and that was the main goal for developers to make AI more human like behaviors in prisons as well as staff....and they did that

seriously play alpha 35 for some time the AI is probably the most human like AI then any game out there that exists

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 11:13:53 AM
you have schedules and a lot of possibility to control the guard

prisoners will sometimes start a fight because they have that kind of nature that is what makes them human like...they do go for highest priority need like if you need to take a piss really bad you will go to the bathroom first then do other things after that....makes them human like

seriously play alpha 35 for some time the AI is probably the most human like AI then any game out there that exists

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on August 05, 2015, 10:46:17 AMBeen playing it since alpha1 a couple of years ago. Built my last 1000+ maxsec prison yesterday.

I can tell you right now that those problems aren't fixed. Like I said, played it yesterday. Played alpha35. AI still sucks. Scheduling was a nice improvement (when it came out like... 9 months ago) but guard AI still sucks. The AI doesn't get tapped for a task until that task is open. Meaning a guard manning a door control station will abandon it, and a random guard anywhere on the map will get tapped to take over the role. This means that camera/phone/door stations can be unmanned for a long time. Since the AI doesn't react to a locked doors this means that you can get large amounts of pawns banked up on doors (including the guy who is trying to get to the control panel to open the door) that will never open. Thats just a simply off the top of the head AI problem that is typical of the AI in PA. Another good example is that prisoners start riots because they are hungry IN the canteen preventing them getting food - this example can be applied to any situation.

Prisoners also dont take into account travel time when making decisions. This is most obvious when a prisoner will choose to use a toilet in a cell block 15 minutes walk away, instead of the one they are standing next to, which again, can start riots.

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on August 05, 2015, 11:22:32 AM

I can tell you right now that those problems aren't fixed. Like I said, played it yesterday. Played alpha35. AI still sucks. Scheduling was a nice improvement (when it came out like... 9 months ago) but guard AI still sucks. The AI doesn't get tapped for a task until that task is open. Meaning a guard manning a door control station will abandon it, and a random guard anywhere on the map will get tapped to take over the role. This means that camera/phone/door stations can be unmanned for a long time. Since the AI doesn't react to a locked doors this means that you can get large amounts of pawns banked up on doors (including the guy who is trying to get to the control panel to open the door) that will never open. Thats just a simply off the top of the head AI problem that is typical of the AI in PA. Another good example is that prisoners start riots because they are hungry IN the canteen preventing them getting food - this example can be applied to any situation.

Prisoners also dont take into account travel time when making decisions. This is most obvious when a prisoner will choose to use a toilet in a cell block 15 minutes walk away, instead of the one they are standing next to, which again, can start riots.

you said you play Alpha 35 but AI gets stuck ? Are you being serious right now ? That problem is fixed then never get stuck...delete your old version saves and start a new prison maybe you bugged the game somehow.....the guard will go on a break the guard can't work 24/7 without a brake that makes them human like...that is how real prisons are...if you don't make schedule the game will try to replace another guard in a position that needs to be guarded if first guard goes on brake or somewhere else....that is how reality is.....prisoners AI try to brake locked doors or steal keys to pass it....Guards carry keys for locked prison doors....workers carry keys for staff door....control panel opens doors if you allow them to open either on staff or prisoners depending what Zone did you put in....which makes it like in reality

prisoners start riots sometimes because they planed it, sometimes because most of them don't like your rules or if they don't get the food...if canteen prevents them from getting food then that is the problem on your part you are doing something wrong...its how in reality is

prisoners can only leave if you allow them to leave early because they need to obey your rules and your schedule that you made for them....watch what zones you allow them to go or not that is also part of your problem

you said you build a 1000+ capacity prison....what do you think there will not be riots or mess ? its reality that is how real prisons work and you have 1000+ thinking it would be peaceful....you created a hell hole


I am surprised that you think this way in Alpha 35....its like you are still playing a old version and not the new one

give me more reasons why you think AI is not human like I will give you more explanations

Guys... Creating new AI for sappers wouldn't be worthless and only for people that don't like "knowing everything sappers", but also for these who really like sappers.

Why? Because for now sappers AI is really simple and i don't see a big problem in creating kind of killbox in the walls for sappers. The point is that Tynan made sappers to "kill" killboxes mechanic so why he created a new type of killbox to build? If he really want to kill kilboxes for sure, he should put these 250h (like someone said) in the sappers to make game really like he wish to (without killboxes).

With sappers or not this game is still killbox game. I can just build killbox like in Alpha 10 and build traps in the walls/send a squad to kill sappers. Sappers are annoying, because they add literally nothing to game and they have bad AI. "But to create AI you will need 9999999h!" - if you want to create something that will (should) change how most players will play in it (outside base are pretty useles now, this is the worst part for me) you should make it good, really good. And instead sappers Tynan could make advanced EMP weapons (how often enemies have EMPs?), for me this would be a really cool, when sappers are really bad, because their AI is annoying and in general they don't add to game to much, mostly only this that mountains are even more OP than before.

that is a good point

even though I don't understand what do you mean by mountains are even more OP then before ?

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 11:43:22 AMyou said you play Alpha 35 but AI gets stuck ? Are you being serious right now ? That problem is fixed then never get stuck...delete your old version saves and start a new prison maybe you bugged the game somehow.....

I'm an IT administrator, can we just assume that I know how computers work?

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 11:43:22 AMthe guard will go on a break the guard can't work 24/7 without a brake that makes them human like...that is how real prisons are...if you don't make schedule the game will try to replace another guard in a position that needs to be guarded if first guard goes on brake or somewhere else....that is how reality is

No in reality, a guard is replaced by another guard, not guard A abandons his post sometimes later guard B arrives to replace him

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 11:43:22 AM.....prisoners AI try to brake locked doors or steal keys to pass it....Police carry keys for locked prison doors....workers carry keys for staff door....control panel opens doors if you allow them to open either on staff or prisoners depending what Zone did you put in....which makes it like in reality

Well actually not really. A: prisoners wont 'try and steal keys'. The AI isn't that advanced. What happens is if a prisoner incapacitates a guard for any reason, they have a chance to take the keys. It isn't planned. The prisoners don't think 'if I take this guard out I can get his keys'. They take the guard out because they haven't been fed (or whatever reason they kicked off is), and then a potential consequence of that is that they could steal the keys.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 11:43:22 AMprisoners start riots sometimes because they planed it

Nope. They aren't 'planned' in any sense. Riots are purely consequences of unfulfilled needs.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 11:43:22 AMsometimes because most of them don't like your rules or if they don't get the food...if canteen prevents them from getting food then that is the problem on your part you are doing something wrong...its how in reality is

I can sort of see what you were addressing here. The point I was making about the riots/canteen isnt about them having access, it was about 'future vision', the ability of the AI to make a decision based on future events. Prisoners have no future vision. They will never make a decision based on future actions. If they are hungry, in the canteen, with food in their hand, ON THE WAY TO EAT IT, they can still riot because of an unmet food need. They don't see ahead and not riot to so they can eat. This inability to make any kind of choice based on a future event spills over into basically every aspect of the prison. Prisoners wont use a toilet unless they really too. If you locked them in a room with a toilet 23 hours of the day, they will still piss on the floor just out side their cells sometimes when they get up.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 11:43:22 AMprisoners can only leave if you allow them to leave early because they need to obey your rules and your schedule that you made for them....watch what zones you allow them to go or not that is also part of your problem

Sadly they don't. The only times that they 'obey your rules' is Lockdown, Eat, Shower and Yard. During both work and freetime they are free to walk anywhere in the prison that your deployment allows. That means prisoners are completely free to walk into a infirmary for the sole purpose of stealing from. I'm pretty sure in a real prison you would only be able to enter certain rooms at certain times ALL THE TIME. But thats hardly a bug, it was more a design decision (which is why I'm not on a forum complaining about it).

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 11:43:22 AMyou said you build a 1000+ capacity prison....what do you think there will not be riots or mess ? its reality that is how real prisons work and you have 1000+ thinking it would be peaceful....you created a hell hole

Actually I didn't. My primary prison has been designed over 3 years. It pretty much runs flawlessly, making the bugs all the more obvious.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 11:43:22 AMI am surprised that you think this way in Alpha 35....its like you are still playing a old version and not the new one

Thats what happens when you have high expectations for something and then watch most of it get pissed away over 3 years.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 11:43:22 AMgive me more reasons why you think AI is not human like I will give you more explanations

*prisoners cannot trade something for something - only something for money.
*contraband is predictably easy to prevent (did a shake down of my 1000+ only found 10 pieces. kinda killed the game for me)
*CI have the ability to see everything in your prison. Everything. They can see contraband, in real time, arriving from the solitary cell they have been locked in for 15 years. They also know they 'that guy' is marked for death the second he arrives.
*AI wont acknowledge a locked door. They treat it like a regular door. If using that locked door is the shortest route, they will stand in front of it until it opens.
*Cooks. They have no idea. They will cook half a meal, run to the other side of the prison to start another one and then run back.
*Shops. Only one shop front per shop works. This means employing more then 2 prisoners per shops is pointless (I would employ just one, but he will never stock the shelves even though there is a mountain of stuff on the table, he will continue to man the shop front and sell nothing)
*Abandoning positions before a replacement arrives. This. This is one of THE single most annoying things.
*Guards getting stuck. Corners and cell doors use to be the biggest problem. The one that I am struggling with the most currently is 'being on the other side of a wall to a fight, and the door is X many squares over there'. Guards will 'respond' to a fight on the other side of a wall, get stuck trying to walk through a wall and then do nothing until the fight is over unless manually moved. This has a knock on effect in that only 5 guards will respond to any event. If 3 of those guards get stuck, there will only ever be 2 guards responding to that event. When those 2 die, 2 new guards will be tapped to add to the 3 stuck ones. This can quickly snowball when you are taking on legendary prisoners with a few perks (I hate extremely deadly combined with stout).
*Dogs. Dogs will commonly continue to attack a prisoner until dead, even after the prisoner has surrendered, is unconscious on the floor with the other guards walking away. Even with 15 guards watching. This is unrelated to the 'cop killer' trait and I will flip if you say it is. Have screen shots to prove it.
*Dogs again. They sometimes become unconnected to their handler. I've had dogs who had their handlers die, find the prisoner that did it in solitary (after patently waiting for guards to open the doors on the way to get there - dogs dont have keys), maul the prisoner to death in his cell, and then walk back through my prison and leave the map.
*I dont think it a bug - but you brought up realism so - prisoners can punch their way through doors.
*Buying stuff from the canteen makes them not want to do the carpentry course. Thought this one was weird. took me hours to nail it down.
*Side by side doors. Watch the AI have a field day.
*Path finding. both guards and prisoners alike suck at path finding. They pick their routes based on how many doors they pass though. A path that goes 40 squares around a door is preferred to walking 2 squares through the door.
*The laundry system. Its so broken. I've found that simply deleting heaps of the clothes in my prison can help jump start it back into action.

Now this is obviously a tl;dr for most people aside from the guy this is directed at. I know its a long winded discussion about a completely unrelated game. The reason that I stuck with this for a while is because a couple of nice points that are valid for both.

The reason that you 'think' the AI in PA is good, is because its isn't. What happens is that AI does things that 'looks' like they are thinking about something, when really they aren't. The AI doesn't think 'hmm this guard is alone. if i jump him now, I can get his keys and make a break for it'. The AI 'thinks' I'm hungry>hungry enough to riot? yes>attack near guard>did I win? yes>take keys/or baton>took keys>I have keys - can I open a door that leads outside?yes>opens that door>can I open another door that leads outside?yes> an so on and so forth. The AI isn't 'thinking' the AI is just completing goals and then re-evaluating the situation after the goal is met (and very importantly, not before that, which is what leads to weird actions).

Good AI is when all of this is hidden under a nice blanket of 'it seems like its thinking'.

Basically it seems the problem here is that you have noticed that you can see under this blanket. A nice and simple way to recover this for you would be to just get some imagination, and then some suspension of disbelief, but since that doesn't seem like it would work for your, how about you just mod the game so that 50% of the time the sappers just mine in the wrong directions. This would mean that only sometimes they mine straight into your base. That cover what you want?

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 12:21:03 PM
that is a good point

even though I don't understand what do you mean by mountains are even more OP then before ?

Because, now with the changes to make it so that 'sappers dont know where you are', they aren't anywhere near the threat to mountain bases they they were before (not that they are one now, also moutain bases is largely what they were made to nerf), making mountains even more attractive to build in.

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on August 05, 2015, 12:32:25 PM

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 12:21:03 PM
that is a good point

even though I don't understand what do you mean by mountains are even more OP then before ?

Because, now with the changes to make it so that 'sappers dont know where you are', they aren't anywhere near the threat to mountain bases they they were before (not that they are one now, also moutain bases is largely what they were made to nerf), making mountains even more attractive to build in.

Nope. I mean that NOW building bases in mountains is OP, because it's easier to dig really deep in the mountain and then kill whole sappers squad when they're digging 50 blocks. But i agree that with new sappers system mountains would be even more OP, but that's not a good point - don't make something better, because something will be worse. For me Tynan should make mountains way less OP long time ago, especially now, with sappers. It's almost like Tynan want to destroy outside bases and make them for hardcore players only, which is pretty bad and i'm not playing in Rimworld because of that.

omg Mikhail Reign you wrote so much when I start reading and writing you the answer to couple of first ones I lose track of wtf I was talking about or wtf is discussion all about

I don't feel like writing a 500 line long page of answers to this one reading it all over again to see if I missed something or did I answered correctly...so I am just gonna skip replying to your last comment even though I did read all of it once but don't find interest into replying with a long ass answer and reading it all over again to remember what the conversation was all about

tl;dr

PA AI is bad, it's just done on such a large scale that you don't notice. Individuals have no AI, just large scale AI. When this works properly it seems like individuals are making choices, when they really aren't. This is when the AI is hidden under a blanket, obscuring the workings and everything seems logical.

When this 'blanket' doesn't cover everything is makes AI decisions seems weird, OP or just wrong. What seems to be the problem here is you perceive the sappers knowing where the base is a a chink in the blanket. Realistically making an AI which DOESNT know where your base is, but is able to find it enough of the time to make sappers not pointless is a much larger undertaking then I think you grasp.

I think a simple way to meet in the middle would be have them know where the base is, and then dice roll to see if they use that information, or just dig in a random spot. That said that would mean sappers are only a threat AT ALL X amount of the time, which I think would be further breaking the sappers.

If you have an idea on how sappers, which can evaluate a base based only on external features (most times simply a door) and then use that sparce information, to mount an attack which is both a legitimate 'attack' and also fun to repel, I'm all ears.

Like I said, if they have no knowedge of the base layout, I would like to see how you would come up with a way for them to launch actual threatening attacks, which aren't able to be simply dealt with a kill box behind the door.

And finally like I said in a previous post, as a person thereis no way I would tunnel in right next to the main door - that's where the defences are. I would do so thing similar to the AI - pick a random spot away from the door and tunnel straight in - high chance of breaching a auxillry room.

well like I showed in the picture on 1st page with orange arrows Sappers should dig around the defense avoiding turrets....that means in a specific radius around that defense....and not go far away from the known existing defense....that means in enough long radius to avoid range of the defense but not that far away from it

lets say you have a big circle...and in that big circle there is a another smaller circle inside by 50% half size of the big one...that smaller circle represents the defense range and the big circle represents the Sappers range of digging trough with safety avoiding defense range

here is a picture example of what I mean:

(http://i.imgur.com/Tjv1eHb.png)


that would in my opinion be a more logical and fair Sapper

here is another example

this is how it should be

(http://i.imgur.com/6uPRuKI.png)

and this is how it is

(http://i.imgur.com/mYBqntl.png)

It looks simple but this would eat so much resources.
Example 1:
You build a box from walls and then put turrets in this box (next to wall, inside the box). Sappers will dig in the turrets radius that can't hit them or they will dig a mile away to optionally die from hunger?

Example 2:
You built a box with turrets like in example 1, but this box have doors, and if you open them turrets will can kill sappers. What sappers will do? Turrets can't hit them, right? But there is a door. So what they should do? Don't go near a turrets in general? So they will always dig mile away even if turrets can't hit them.

Example 3:
Sappers get to your base, but they have problem. Player put turrets in the base, so every cell in the base is protected by turrets. What sapper should do? They shoud avoid turrets, right? They will dig around the base over and over?

Results:
Rimworld will be unplayable for low end pc users (like me), because sappers will need to think "These turrets are OUTSIDE the base and they protect the entrance or they're in the base when we should dig to?" - if they will avoid turrets then they will can't go to the base, if they will can go to the base, they will not avoid the turrets.

Solution:
Sappers should avoid places when their people died (and someone escaped or not optionaly) not turrets, but they should dig in places around danger zone (random square to X squares around danger zone). After they dig out X blocks (or they're X blocks too close to the edge of mountain or wall) and they didn't find the player they should start to dig in direction where the danger zone is, but not INTO the danger zone (there are only 4 directions in rimworld, 1 of them will be coridor made by sappers, so they would only need to choose 1 from 3). This would need much less resources and would work well + sappers would be a real threat now because they would be more random, for now they just avoid danger zone and go to the closest room

Something to bear in mind is that AI is not trivial stuff to code. It's even worse to test because basically, it can go wrong but not cause an error, so pinning down a problem can take hours of painstaking testing and observation.

So in the short term don't expect to see a vast improvement in AI but rather, small incremental improvements.

Here are some things that would really help though:

Instead of drawing a diagram on a blank white page, please set up pawns and structures in-game using the debug menu, take a screenshot, and annotate that. It's a lot easier to then re-create that or something similar in-game so that everyone's on the same page.

If you don't agree with someone's post, don't complain about it on the topic. Stay on topic, don't overquote, and keep it focused on coming up with insights, not shooting down someone else's.

Particularly with pawn behaviour, please break down the problem and describe what you expected to happen, what actually happened, and what steps might work better.

For example:

What I expected: I expected the sapper to try and get deeper inside the base after initially breaking through.
What actually happened: The sapper only used their grenades near the breach, and then decided to path all the way around the outside of the base to make a new breach and repeat the same behaviour.
What might work better: The sapper looks for ways to tunnel deeper into the base - preferring to breach rooms which are currently 'Indoors' and which are in a 180 degree arc of the last successful breach.

Doing this makes it much easier for the developer to actually address the problem.

Quote from: NemesisN on August 05, 2015, 10:54:42 AM

you can't see hidden rooms unless you discover it.....AI can...your hidden rooms should be hidden from AI....AI should see what you see that means the outside....your dugout space hidden in mountains should be only visible to you

the visitors that I capture never leave my prison alive....how can they possibly send something back if they are locked up in their prison with noting to contact their faction ? Their either end up joining me or executed...that is made up that makes no sense...same as that trading thing for them to give up information that is also made up

the prison is outside from my main base where hidden rooms are....your explanation of things does not make sense on how it works in RimWorld

yes I know I need to go offense on them...but it takes time for them to go there while they dig little by little every block...also there is a group of them awaiting for your ambush so its highly risky

Your rooms are NOT hidden, what part of that do you not understand? just because you dug them out of a mountain, does not make them hidden. You can see them, and so can the AI. You WANT them to be hidden, but that is NOT how the game is programmed, and probably never will be. If one pawn can see the room, then all pawns can see the room, which is the way the AI is programmed in RIMWORLD.  And your colonist are pawns.

All pawns use the same algorithms for pathing. Therefor all pawns know about all walls, and all rooms, and all doors.

It is not risky to engage the sapper escorts, as they will not defend in groups, while the sapper is digging. Attack them at range. 

Or as they walk towards the area they are going to dig, attack, they will continue to walk, except for the one you injure.

Target the actual sapper, before he begins digging, kill him, and the escorts will head for the main entrance.

here is an image of me attacking and killing the escorts at range, with no damage to me.

The escorts wander around in a set range, while the sapper digs... set up to kill the escorts at the edge of their range, one at a time, they NEVER fight back... move in close, and you will agro the entire group.

(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtp1/v/t1.0-9/11022516_975983389099688_2691778665314087349_n.jpg?oh=2839c68277af51ab47c2625b83093a6f&oe=5656CB4B)

1:
What i expected: I expected the sapper to not know where is undiscovered room.
What actually happened: The sapper decided to dig where the room is, because it's less digging to the player base.
What might work better: The sapper at least shouldn't know about rooms that are in fog.

2:
What i expected: I expected the sapper to not know where he need to dig to get to my base at the smallest cost.
What actually happened: Sapper decided to dig into the hidden room that is 2 squares deep in the mountain but is way away from the entrance.
What might work better: If we can't change "sapper know everything" mechanic they at least should dig to X squares from point where the entrance is, not mile away, because he know there is a room there.

Results using this type of mechanic in this topic:
None.

Note:
We will reapeting everything over and over using a schematic, because a lot of us want one thing - sappers shouldn't know everything, where to dig etc without any "spies" mechanic.

QuoteYour rooms are NOT hidden, what part of that do you not understand? just because you dug them out of a mountain, does not make them hidden. You can see them, and so can the AI. You WANT them to be hidden, but that is NOT how the game is programmed, and probably never will be. If one pawn can see the room, then all pawns can see the room, which is the way the AI is programmed in RIMWORLD.  And your colonist are pawns.

Note 1: It's a suggestion.
Note 2: Yes, he wants that.
Note 3: Yes, he know, this is the point of this suggestion.
Note 4: AI didn't build our base to see it. We did. AI isn't building bases this is why we see everything, AI shouldn't.
Note 5: Your statement - "game is working like that, YOU want change how game is working writing suggestions which makes you arrogant".
Note 6: It looks that sappers are more useles and stupid than i though. They know everything and don't react to firing at them.
Note 7: I really enjoy writing like this. You can say something without saying too much.

I'd like to point out Re: Note 6 - all the AI have that trouble. No one fixes flanks and fucks. Everyone just reenacts civil war gun lines.

Quote from: Adamiks on August 05, 2015, 06:24:58 PM
1:
What i expected: I expected the sapper to not know where is undiscovered room.
What actually happened: The sapper decided to dig where the room is, because it's less digging to the player base.
What might work better: The sapper at least shouldn't know about rooms that are in fog.

2:
What i expected: I expected the sapper to not know where he need to dig to get to my base at the smallest cost.
What actually happened: Sapper decided to dig into the hidden room that is 2 squares deep in the mountain but is way away from the entrance.
What might work better: If we can't change "sapper know everything" mechanic they at least should dig to X squares from point where the entrance is, not mile away, because he know there is a room there.

Results using this type of mechanic in this topic:
None.

Note:
We will reapeting everything over and over using a schematic, because a lot of us want one thing - sappers shouldn't know everything, where to dig etc without any "spies" mechanic.

QuoteYour rooms are NOT hidden, what part of that do you not understand? just because you dug them out of a mountain, does not make them hidden. You can see them, and so can the AI. You WANT them to be hidden, but that is NOT how the game is programmed, and probably never will be. If one pawn can see the room, then all pawns can see the room, which is the way the AI is programmed in RIMWORLD.  And your colonist are pawns.

Note 1: It's a suggestion.
Note 2: Yes, he wants that.
Note 3: Yes, he know, this is the point of this suggestion.
Note 4: AI didn't build our base to see it. We did. AI isn't building bases this is why we see everything, AI shouldn't.
Note 5: Your statement - "game is working like that, YOU want change how game is working writing suggestions which makes you arrogant".
Note 6: It looks that sappers are more useles and stupid than i though. They know everything and don't react to firing at them.
Note 7: I really enjoy writing like this. You can say something without saying too much.

First this is NOT the suggestions forum.
Yes he want his rooms to be unkown to the AI... sorry that is not how the AI works. And knowing what it takes to program an AI, it never will.
AI should see everything you can, and that is the way the AI is programmed.
Yes AI on sappers escorts is very stupid, and flanking will always kill them.

You are confusing the issue with rooms you build, with the ruins that are hidden. Two totally different actions and events. Yes the AI will know about the ruins, they were here before you, and have been scouting the area for decades.

"First this is NOT the suggestions forum."
I know this started as saying that sappers are bad but ended on suggestions.

"Yes he want his rooms to be unkown to the AI... sorry that is not how the AI works. And knowing what it takes to program an AI, it never will."
So what the point in creating new type of enemy that is annoying because have bad AI?

"AI should see everything you can, and that is the way the AI is programmed."
Yes, but at least this should look like AI isn't seeing everything. With sappers game is almost throwing you a message "AI knows everything!" in your face.

"Yes AI on sappers escorts is very stupid, and flanking will always kill them."
Like i said - sappers add literally nothing to the game, due to bad AI. Solution - AI need to be polished. Or removed. Keeping them isn't really smart, they're easy to kill and players just are upset due to their onlogicial behaviour (even when they are easy to kill they still exist in the game).

"You are confusing the issue with rooms you build, with the ruins that are hidden. Two totally different actions and events. Yes the AI will know about the ruins, they were here before you, and have been scouting the area for decades."
For decades? Who said that? Also planets are big, which raider would have time to travel around the world and search for hidden doors using some devices that don't exist in the game? And if someone can "scout" room hidden in the mountain then he is fucking Chuck Norris.

All enemies are annoying, that is why they are part of the game. The sapper AI is no more stupid than the tribals, pirates, mechs AI who run into the kill box every time. But you are not complaining about that, because there is a long established way to easily defeat them, with no danger to your colonists.

The sappers just add another event.

Just like the wargs added another event.

The sappers just have to be adapted to, and that adaptation is very easy, flank and kill.

Sappers are easy to defeat, but you know why i'm not complaing about another enemies? Because Tynan created sappers to make killboxes useles (or worse), but he just created a another type of enemy for another type of killbox. And the point is that i want sappers to be a real danger (even if sappers would defend themselves then their behaviour is really simple and you don't need much to create "weak" points).

Quote from: Adamiks on August 05, 2015, 11:27:54 PMBecause Tynan created sappers to make killboxes useles (or worse)

Not really. Kill boxes aren't a new thing. They aren't even a new thing for games. Kill-boxes have existed probably as long as warfare. Getting the enemy to be where all your weapons are pointed ISN'T a bad thing. It isn't something that you can, or should even try to stop the player from doing. What it shouldn't be is the ONLY thing that you do, which is what sappers (and sieges) are trying to do - giving the player other experiences other then just forming a gun line.

The 'problem' comes down to what AI is capable of. A good example is a FPS - in it the enemy AI just has to know how to take cover, and return fire in a convincing way, as the player only interacts with each entity for as long as it take to spot and shoot them. This mirage soon evaporates the longer you interact with individual entities - for example in most fast paced shooters the AI has no understanding of advancing. Upon spawn or activation the AI will find the nearest cover and then lay down fire - if you then backtrack in the level the AI will have no idea how to react to this and simply stay put. This is why in most games when you bump up the difficulty, it either, instead of making the enemies smarter: simply adds more enemies - they are already as smart as the developers could create them, so the only way to increase the challenge is by making more of them; or gives the AI superhuman abilities - 100% accuracy, higher health, more ammunition etc . The developers haven't wasted the time pulling the blanket over the parts of the AI that rarely seen.

Another great example is RTS games. In nearly every RTS game that you come across the AI 'cheats'. Pick your favorite RTS - the AI cheats in it. They either A: can see thought the FoW B: get more/infinite resources then you C: have a higher pop cap then you or D: all of the above. Everyone that plays RTS games acknowledges and accepts this because they are aware that the AI that they are fighting against is limited - it doesnt have a full understanding of a flanking maneuver, doesn't know how to properly make use of a choke point, doesnt know how to create a defense-in-depth, it doesnt know how to bluff convincingly and it doesnt know when an attack is breaking though or being drawn into a pincer. It gets around these limitations by having access for information and resources that a player in the same position wouldn't. It gives the AI a fighting chance.

You want the sappers to be smarter? Sure - you code the AI. Until then adding either A: more of then or B: let them cheat - its the standard practice to get around AI limitations.

Quote from: TLHeart on August 05, 2015, 11:07:56 PM
All enemies are annoying, that is why they are part of the game. The sapper AI is no more stupid than the tribals, pirates, mechs AI who run into the kill box every time. But you are not complaining about that, because there is a long established way to easily defeat them, with no danger to your colonists.

The sappers just add another event.

Just like the wargs added another event.

The sappers just have to be adapted to, and that adaptation is very easy, flank and kill.

not true

Sappers are the only annoying ones and the ones that feel like a troll compare to other enemies...I don't find any other enemy annoying at all

Quote from: TLHeart on August 05, 2015, 05:55:43 PM

Your rooms are NOT hidden, what part of that do you not understand? just because you dug them out of a mountain, does not make them hidden. You can see them, and so can the AI. You WANT them to be hidden, but that is NOT how the game is programmed, and probably never will be. If one pawn can see the room, then all pawns can see the room, which is the way the AI is programmed in RIMWORLD.  And your colonist are pawns.

can you see hidden rooms when you never dig them out, entered or did not claim them as your own ?

No you can't because they are not yours and you never discovered them or what is inside

that is how enemy AI should work as well they should not know about rooms that they did not enter, discovered or claimed as their own

I know that every pawn can see my room including enemy...I know that is how game is currently programmed that is the point of this topic...that is the problem that I am talking about

There is so much arguments about how AI is hard to code, yep it's hard but i think that Tynan should make sappers longer, but better. In Project Zomboid devs are working more than year on NPC in zombie world that will be like real humans (they send some videos, these NPC are really cool). AI is stupid in most of the games, because:
A - computers limitations.
B - devs think that stupid AI is better than no AI.

In old games - A. In new games - B.

Example of old game AI - Counter strike with "mod" that adds bots.
In CS bots was stupid for players, but they wasn't so stupid at all. They was "talking" with each other:
"I'm going to A"
"Going with you"
"Ok, so i'm going to B"

Or:
"Terrorists in bla bla bla"
*NPC optionaly move on to help*

Or:
*Player said "follow me"
"OK"
"OK"
"NOPE! I'm going on B motherfucker!"
"I'm going with that guy on B"

In Rimworld this looks like this:
"There are turrets. There is danger zone. We should go around danger zone. We can go to Room A 56 squares in left or to Room B 45 squares right. Room A have less walls to dig. We should dig there."
"Ok, we're covering you"
*colonists are shooting to the group*
"O! Jon died! How?! We will stand in the middle of plain and watch for them!"
"Oh, no!! Sapper died! Come on, guys, we're moving to the killbox!" (reminder - colonists are still there)
"Look! There are guys over here!"

Like you think, A or B?

A solution could be a fog of war and line of sight with raiders/sappers/sieges wandering almost aimlessly until one of them spots an item/pawn or developments like walls, furniture or sandbags. Then beginning unified assaults or siege based on what they have seen, possibly causing a miss-raid, backfire or even surprise raids spawning possible strategic use of spotters for accurate operation of mortar etc.
I can dream too.

Quote from: Adamiks on August 06, 2015, 02:12:41 AM<snip>

Ugh.... see thats.. just not how it works. Like... The AI escorts dont 'cover' the sapper, they just move with them and attack things in range, another situation in which 'dumb' AI appears smart because the role is a simple one, and the options are limited, which means that more often then not everything goes in a logical way. The illusion is broken when you use you human brain to think around the problem and put the AI in a situation in which its AI isn't designed to react to and everything goes pear shaped and you can see that the pawns aren't aware of each other in any sense other then if they are alive or dead. It is much more time effective, to create broad simple AI designed to react to at their basic level. You could spend the time making an AI which would evaluate mountain bases based solely on their external features and then try and guess where to drill in (realistically making it a crap shoot, somewhere in the area), or simply just make it so they know where the base is, and then maybe randomising X squares either way (realistically making it a crap shoot, somewhere in the area) for a time amount of the time with basically the same end result.

I actually think it's better that there are stories about raids which are defeated because they're trying to accomplish a particular goal and failed because the AI could only do so much. The challenge is to defeat them before they do even more damage, not simply add some notches to your rifle. :)

I treat Rimworld as a strategy/survival game. The lack of fog of war, total awareness granted by the satellite view removes all mystery. Why should enemies be surprised by my base layout if I can see everything ? It just doesn't fit. Few top-down games even bother having any sort of line of sight.

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on August 06, 2015, 10:40:08 AM

Quote from: Adamiks on August 06, 2015, 02:12:41 AM<snip>

Ugh.... see thats.. just not how it works. Like... The AI escorts dont 'cover' the sapper, they just move with them and attack things in range, another situation in which 'dumb' AI appears smart because the role is a simple one, and the options are limited, which means that more often then not everything goes in a logical way. The illusion is broken when you use you human brain to think around the problem and put the AI in a situation in which its AI isn't designed to react to and everything goes pear shaped and you can see that the pawns aren't aware of each other in any sense other then if they are alive or dead. It is much more time effective, to create broad simple AI designed to react to at their basic level. You could spend the time making an AI which would evaluate mountain bases based solely on their external features and then try and guess where to drill in (realistically making it a crap shoot, somewhere in the area), or simply just make it so they know where the base is, and then maybe randomising X squares either way (realistically making it a crap shoot, somewhere in the area) for a time amount of the time with basically the same end result.

You think that i'm stupid or from the future? Every AI in games works like this. If player will can do something to AI but AI don't have programmed reaction, well.... AI will probably do nothing. The point is that in my example AI had programmed reactions and if not, then that wasn't so visible, in Rimworld sappers are just dumb (read: small amount of programmed reactions, and/or these reactions are not logicial) and you see it so hard that some players just don't play in game.

I appreciate lively discussion but please keep it friendly everyone.

Quote from: Adamiks on August 06, 2015, 07:14:09 PMYou think that i'm stupid or from the future? Every AI in games works like this.

Mate I didn't make any assumptions - I just replied to what you wrote. Instead of putting the emphasis on me to interpret your comments in the way that you intended, maybe just make your comments less open to interpretation?

Quote from: Adamiks on August 06, 2015, 07:14:09 PMIf player will can do something to AI but AI don't have programmed reaction, well.... AI will probably do nothing. The point is that in my example AI had programmed reactions and if not, then that wasn't so visible, in Rimworld sappers are just dumb (read: small amount of programmed reactions, and/or these reactions are not logicial) and you see it so hard that some players just don't play in game.

I don't get ya - the sapper pawns are no 'dumber' then the rest of them though. Every pawn will happily walk into death, sometimes, I swear, even seeking it out. Sappers will stand around while people around them die - so do siege pawns, so do preparing pawns. Whats the difference? I don't feel like the sapper AI is a stand out in any way - its on par with the rest of the AI - they spawn, move to their target and attack. Sure they can 'see' your base, but so can siege crews when they mortar it from the other side of the map.

I'm just not seeing the problem with the current sappers - they act and respond in ways and to situations the same as the rest of the pawns. They suck when your at max range, they B-line to a target they can see anywhere, they singly mindedly complete their objective. How is that any different to a raids AI?

I'd like to see sappers more consistently avoid points where previous sapper raids failed, was killed. I'm not sure they do that. They attacked the same spot 3 times in a row. The next time they attacked through another wall, towards my hospital, and were more successful. They avoid turrets, maybe they should also avoid areas which used to have IED traps ? At least for a while.

I find drop pods punching through my roof far more cheezy and annoying than sappers.

I have to agree with the camp that says that clairvoyant sappers are a bit of an immersion breaker and need improvement. In general I think it would be far better if they tracked how much of the interior of a base they have seen (similar to how they learn where traps are) and based their attacks off that information. If they don't know of a reachable tile they can get to without entering turret coverage then they should dig in at a point just outside of turret coverage.

Having them avoid hitting the same spot over and over again is also important. I've taken to booby-trapping their prior tunnels and it's too effective.

We also definitely need the capability to cave in tiles with some sort of explosive device.

But I'd also like to see a few more means to break kill-boxes like AI Pawns using long range EM or explosives to disable/destroy turrets, prioritize external power sources (anybody ever play any Command and Conquer title?) to drop the turrets, or intentionally target the linkages between turrets and your power grid if they are exposed. I roll my eyes every time a raid shows up and all five of the rocket launchers they brought along get targeted at my pawns.

Alternatively, you could abuse sapper AI and set up a fortified position where they are most likely to dig in before sappers arrive. Dig out a room near the edge of your base for them to mine into, drop a few IED traps inside, and defend the far chokepoint with a few grenadiers, melee specialists, and minigun/shogun-users.

Using the right tools for every combat situation is the best way to succeed. Grenades and automatics are great for the tight chokepoints that sappers make, and having at least one or two guys who are decent with a gladius to cover your shooters is all you need to handle even large raids. My preferred chokepoints are kind of like this


...........
...........
XXXXX......
XXIXX......
XXOXX......
XXDXXXX
XIOIXXXX
XOOOXXXX
XDSDXXXX
MAGAMXXX
.GGG.XXX


. = Outside
X = Walls (Natural or artificial
O = floors with sandbags or stone chunks
S = Sandbags or Embrasures, depending on modset
D = Door (forbidden)
I = IED
M = Melee specialist (Cycles to with the automatic users if the raiders get too close
G = Grenade specialist (Backs up one tile if raiders get too close)
A = Automatic Specialist (PDW, Assault Rifles, or Miniguns, backs up if the radiers get too close.)

Sappers see the 1-tile wall and try to break through, or go in through the side of the killbox as they consider it a weak point. The lack of turrets means they won't avoid it. The grenadier dumbfires into the chokepoint, shattering shields while automatics lay down suppressive fire, melee specialists move in if anything gets close. Any enemies with launchers or grenades are targetted first. Molotovs optional, but can be incorporated. More grenade users can be set up behind the first line of colonists.

While this is going on, I often have colonists with rocket launchers and sniper rifles flanking the sapper team. They pick off enemies in the following order:

Raider Rocket Launchers > Raider Snipers > Raider Grenadiers > Anyone else they can pick off.

Similar tactics can be used against wargs or tribals if they go for constructed walls/doors near the sapper-trap. Though in that case anyone picking off stragglers needs to be in good health and have good mobility since many tribals and wargs are very fast.

Quote from: Othobrithol on August 07, 2015, 08:17:34 AM
I find drop pods punching through my roof far more cheezy and annoying than sappers.

hold on...drop pods punch trough your roofs ? really ? I never seen on experienced that...drop pods only drop outside on unroofed areas...are you using a mod ?

Quote from: NemesisN on August 07, 2015, 09:46:06 AM

Quote from: Othobrithol on August 07, 2015, 08:17:34 AM
I find drop pods punching through my roof far more cheezy and annoying than sappers.

hold on...drop pods punch trough your roofs ? really ? I never seen on experienced that...drop pods only drop outside on unroofed areas...are you using a mod ?

Raider drop pods can go through constructed roofs.

I've had sappers attack but their pattern of attack does not exactly say 'clairvoyant' but rather 'I choose this place! Oh wait I'm bored now I'll choose this place!'

Like really, all they had to do was break through one door and they could have torched all the crops.

I either just sat here and read nine pages of someone shoeing how completely stupid they are, or trolling the complete shit out of everyone... My I.Q. Had to have dropped a few points from all of this.

user was temp banned for this (in addition to previous warning on other issue) - 15 days

Quote from: Jamini on August 07, 2015, 10:01:42 AM

Quote from: NemesisN on August 07, 2015, 09:46:06 AM

Quote from: Othobrithol on August 07, 2015, 08:17:34 AM
I find drop pods punching through my roof far more cheezy and annoying than sappers.

hold on...drop pods punch trough your roofs ? really ? I never seen on experienced that...drop pods only drop outside on unroofed areas...are you using a mod ?

Raider drop pods can go through constructed roofs.

I have been playing RimWorld for a year never I had experienced that in vanilla

Quote from: DaemonDeathAngel on August 07, 2015, 11:04:37 AM
I either just sat here and read nine pages of someone shoeing how completely stupid they are, or trolling the complete shit out of everyone... My I.Q. Had to have dropped a few points from all of this.

nobody forced you to read or visit this topic...you chose that yourself...you do not need to insult me and my topic by saying this is a troll...people discuss about everything related to this game here that is why its called General Discussion

If you think this topic is stupid then leave and don't read it....its that simple....use that little I.Q. of what you had left to do that

Quote from: NemesisN on August 07, 2015, 11:27:06 AM

Quote from: Jamini on August 07, 2015, 10:01:42 AM

Quote from: NemesisN on August 07, 2015, 09:46:06 AM

Quote from: Othobrithol on August 07, 2015, 08:17:34 AM
I find drop pods punching through my roof far more cheezy and annoying than sappers.

hold on...drop pods punch trough your roofs ? really ? I never seen on experienced that...drop pods only drop outside on unroofed areas...are you using a mod ?

Raider drop pods can go through constructed roofs.

I have been playing RimWorld for a year never I had experienced that in vanilla

Added in alpha 11, raiders can drop through constructed roofs, and through thin rock roofs... which means if there is a thin rock roof in your mountain base, they will drop through that spot.
And there is always some thin rock roofs in the mountains.

The random drop pods can also drop through the same spots.

wow that sounds like even more sapper version of annoying attacks...I never experienced it but if they also hit 100% accuracy trough roofs into hidden rooms they might be even more annoying and bad then digging sappers

They seem to prefer to pod down near trade beacons. I'm surprised you haven't seen it, I get drop pod raids with fair regularity. One of my earliest colonies (ice sheet biome) had a group pod directly into the dining room.

The AI and mechanics of this game tend to favor players who can adapt their strategies, and aren't afraid to occasionally lose. I have any fond memories of losing colonies already. (Berserk Rhinos are not to be trifled with in melee!) and I'm anticipating more. Perhaps you should, rather than complain about mechanics intended to keep you on your toes, adapt your playstyle and fortress around them?

DaemonDeathAngel  calling me stupid and a troll is by no means a compliment in any way....maybe you should google the meaning of an insult and a compliment and learn the difference

I don't know in what world you live in inside your head to think I turn people off from the community...that is just silly to say

I only said to some people that they are not right when they made up explanations like X-Ray and similar which are not part of the game its just a made up theory

you are acting childish...grow up

How bout you both take what Ty said into consideration?

Quote from: Tynan on August 06, 2015, 07:53:41 PM
I appreciate lively discussion but please keep it friendly everyone.

Quote from: Mikhail Reign on August 07, 2015, 01:42:22 PM
How bout you both take what Ty said into consideration?

Quote from: Tynan on August 06, 2015, 07:53:41 PM
I appreciate lively discussion but please keep it friendly everyone.

I would like that but apparently some people are pissed of with my dislikes on this game feature so they have a need to insults with childish insults like calling me stupid, retard, douche, troll instead of having a normal discussion

I did created this topic to have a serious discussion about this feature...at least like adults without silly name callings but that is not how it ended up to be with some people just being pissed of for no reason

Quote from: NemesisN on August 07, 2015, 01:48:46 PM
I would like that but apparently some people are pissed of with my dislikes on this game feature so they have a need to insults with childish insults like calling me stupid, retard, douche, troll instead of having a normal discussion

you brought that up to yourself with your closeminded attitude, your lack of arguments (and lack of imagination, which you have prooved several pages ago) and not accepting ANYTHING from ANYONE who is not agreeing with you.
ergo, you didn't actually come here to discuss at all, you just came here to find people who would backup your stupid opinion about the AI. otherwise, you would actually listen to what dozens of other people have told you and try to actually DISCUSS with people that are not agreeing with you, rather than all the stupid, nonsene babble you have posted the past pages over and over.

you have been prooven wrong ages ago and you ran out of arguments ages ago... just... just stop. do yourself a favour. like i already told you pages ago: you look more and more stupid with every word you write. just stop and get out while you can.

zandadoum that is far from true

I only did not accepted and told people that they are wrong when they made up explanations like x-ray that is it...only on made up things that don't exist in the game....and people like you that blabber about random things about me that are not true....but you ignorantly accepted that as if I did not agree with anyone here at all or did not take any suggestions at all....I suggest you read the conversation all over again this time slowly and carefully

How does me not living in a imagination and talking about made up things instead sticking to reality and what the game has give you the right to call me stupid or for someone else to call me a troll or a retard or tell me that I have OCD ?

if you can read or see there is now 10 pages and in each one I discuss about something so for you to say I lack arguments is also not true

proven wrong on what ? Specify what exactly ? On Sappers not having X-Ray ? I am pretty sure that I am right when I say that its made up, same goes for spies


you are acting childish...grow up and leave a comment that does not consist of silly name callings towards me....I did not brought anything to myself....people like you are just pissed of that I dislike something that you like in the game....then you start calling me names and blame it on me that I brought that on myself....man up instead of blaming me because you are pissed of that I don't like the feature you like

OK, this thread is pretty obviously not improving anyone's life. Locking. Thank you for the discussion, where it was issues-based.

Internet arguments: the only winning move is not to play.

Like Tynan said.

If you have a problem with another forum user's post, notify a moderator. Do not escalate the problem by pouring more fuel on the fire. :P