In a big colony ie 50+, there's bound to be crime. I would like it if we could make that a thing. Murder, and things of that nature. If you can arrest them, punish them, put them on trial, things like that, it'd be great.
Quote from: Drakon22 on August 21, 2015, 07:36:39 PM
In a big colony ie 50+, there's bound to be crime. I would like it if we could make that a thing. Murder, and things of that nature. If you can arrest them, punish them, put them on trial, things like that, it'd be great.
YES, SO MUCH THIS!
I never build a prison. This would give a reason to build a prison.
If someone commits an offense and there is no prison they should be flogged mercilessly either injuring them severely or killing them.
Also there should be a 'mayor' of the colony. His or her mood could effect several things.
Quote from: The13thRonin on August 21, 2015, 07:38:33 PM
I never build a prison. This would give a reason to build a prison.
What? Do you honestly never get any prisoners? How do you get any colonists... The only other method is joining events or buying slaves.
As for the legal system suggestion... There probably wouldn't really be crime.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 21, 2015, 08:14:28 PM
Quote from: The13thRonin on August 21, 2015, 07:38:33 PM
I never build a prison. This would give a reason to build a prison.
What? Do you honestly never get any prisoners? How do you get any colonists... The only other method is joining events or buying slaves.
As for the legal system suggestion... There probably wouldn't really be crime.
Do you honestly think there wouldn't be crime? Throw a bunch of people from different social backgrounds together, in a frightening, stressful situation, and you don't think arguments or fights would break out? At best, you are ignorant.
My go-to real world equivalent is Jamestown. Settlers from the "gentry" and from the "working" classes
did not get along. They
murdered each other regularly, and the entire colony was a shit-heap until it was forcibly taken over by the Crown.
There would be plenty of crime, even if said "crimes" were just fist-fights from a result of frayed tempers and stressful living.
Yeah, but you already have to fight giant raids of seiging pirates and mechanoids... I don't think having your colonists break out in a fist fight would be good during that. And that would happen, since you wouldn't be able to draft them during that, like when people go insane.
Quote from: Z0MBIE2 on August 22, 2015, 01:39:05 AM
Yeah, but you already have to fight giant raids of seiging pirates and mechanoids... I don't think having your colonists break out in a fist fight would be good during that. And that would happen, since you wouldn't be able to draft them during that, like when people go insane.
The storyteller would put these events in between raids. Not during, right before or right after one. This would also put a whole new perspective to the game. Colonists with certain traits would commit different crimes:
- A psychopath would murder someone in their sleep (but the storyteller would only put this event when you have a lot of colonists and would probably chose a newer gained colonists).
- A drunk would sometimes start making a mess after he went on a binge.
- A Brawler would sometimes pick a fight, but would stop after a few hits.
If you don't put them in jail for some time, they might do the crime again. If you lock them up, the chance of them committing a crime in the future will be much slimmer.
Cool idea
Quote from: Drakon22 on August 21, 2015, 07:36:39 PM
In a big colony ie 50+, there's bound to be crime. I would like it if we could make that a thing. Murder, and things of that nature. If you can arrest them, punish them, put them on trial, things like that, it'd be great.
I thought there was a limit on how big the colony can get?
I've never managed to get further than 6 myself, is it possible t get to 50 without mods?
Everything is possible, some person on the forum said he got up to 150 colonists Provided pictures and everything. Tynan of course jumped right on it and asked about the frame rate.
Currently very few things track ownership. Three exactly; beds, rooms and graves. Colonists would have to call dibs on stuff in their room or something to make this mechanic work, and I'm not sure if colonists leave stuff hanging around in their room anyways, but of course it's all relatively possible.
Quote from: wildeaboutoscar on August 23, 2015, 07:07:02 AM
Quote from: Drakon22 on August 21, 2015, 07:36:39 PM
In a big colony ie 50+, there's bound to be crime. I would like it if we could make that a thing. Murder, and things of that nature. If you can arrest them, punish them, put them on trial, things like that, it'd be great.
I've gotten into the teens on vanilla, but I think much past that involves editing the story teller.
I thought there was a limit on how big the colony can get?
I've never managed to get further than 6 myself, is it possible t get to 50 without mods?
I support this idea, but only if I can have gallows! (Also usable on prisoner raiders ^^)
Too complex. A trial would be a coding nightmare.
I think the idea of a colony mayor has merit. You would have to be careful in who you select to be mayor as their personality could spill over onto everyone else. Could be interesting.
As to whether there would be crime in a small group like that, it really depends on how much they need each other. If there is a psychopath in the group they will attempt to manipulate everyone else, and that will cause all kinds of havoc. But otherwise, you might be surprised how "normal" people can get along if survival is on the line.
The person who doesn't contribute much is the one who has to watch out. But if everyone has a pivotal role to play, they're pretty safe.
That is unless food starts running out. Then all bets are off.
But in a scenario like what you have in RimWorld, people can't just be punitive for the sake of being punitive. If your only doctor kills a sexual competitor, are you really going to execute him? No, you won't.
Quote from: Codexehow on August 23, 2015, 04:14:37 PM
Too complex. A trial would be a coding nightmare.
I think the idea of a colony mayor has merit. You would have to be careful in who you select to be mayor as their personality could spill over onto everyone else. Could be interesting.
As to whether there would be crime in a small group like that, it really depends on how much they need each other. If there is a psychopath in the group they will attempt to manipulate everyone else, and that will cause all kinds of havoc. But otherwise, you might be surprised how "normal" people can get along if survival is on the line.
The person who doesn't contribute much is the one who has to watch out. But if everyone has a pivotal role to play, they're pretty safe.
That is unless food starts running out. Then all bets are off.
But in a scenario like what you have in RimWorld, people can't just be punitive for the sake of being punitive. If your only doctor kills a sexual competitor, are you really going to execute him? No, you won't.
No, you can't afford to execute him, but you can't just let him get way scot-free. What message does that say to the other colonists?
" If you aren't "important" enough, you can literally be murdered and the up-and-ups won't care"
Call for a general meeting, and call the doctor out for murdering another guy over a bit of strange, and make him wear something that signifies "I murdered someone in cold blood". Will it impact his work performance? No. Will it make a point to the other colonist that certain things won't be allowed? Yep
Two dudes get into a fistfight? Throw them into a cell for the night. The next time a fight breaks out, the parties involved are less likely to get physical, knowing they will get thrown in a cell if they do.
As for "stealing", just code in an "ownership" tab for everything around the colonists bed, up to the first door. I don't know about you, but I usually put things like weapons and spare clothing on a shelf in the colonists room (XXX's rifle, XXX's parka, etc). Someone else takes it, they get charged with stealing. Yadda yadda yadda
Even social groups that "owned" things in a such a fashion (like Native Americans) still had private belongings. They could also get downright
nasty with punishments for crimes: social stigmatization ("don't talk to that guy, he stole from X/ murdered a guy for his beer"), reparations to the injured party, or even exile/execution.
That just isn't how it works, though.
If you have a group where only one person can cure disease and only one person can fix the machines, you really can't afford to piss either of them off.
It's a sucky situation to be in to be sure, but it's not as simplistic as you're making it out to be.
How can you throw them in a cell if they have vital work to do elsewhere in the colony? You can't. While you're playing judge and jury, a vital piece of machinery breaks down or someone dies because the doctor was being tarred and feathered.
There is a reason that mankind didn't event a code of laws until *after* civilization was founded. For a civilization, you need to have so much food and security that people can A) multiply fruitfully and B) learn crafts (not farming)
The fewer people you have in your group, the more pivotal each becomes, and that allows for people to get away with some pretty gruesome behavior.
It is what it is.
This is why "specialization" is for chumps. A "specialized" colony is a dead colony, regardless if your doctor is imprisoned or merely gets injured/starves to death. There is a saying: "don't put all your eggs in one basket"? I never do. I run mods that let me cross-train skills, so that way if my "main" doctor/mechanic gets injured/killed, someone could take over.
....
What is the said "expert" gonna do? Where are they gonna go? They can't exactly leave, no other group is gonna take them.
-Tribals/Outlanders: Hey, this guy from your settlement wanted to join us. He was rather shifty when we asked for a reason. Any ideas as to why?
-Colony: Yeah, he murdered one of our guys, and got all pissy when we called him out on it.
-Tribals/Outlanders: Seems legit. Thanks for the heads up
-or-
-Pirates: hey, you at the gate! Are you blind, or just stupid?
-Outlaw: I want to join you guys! My old group got all pissy when I offed a guy....
-Pirates: Yeah, and? You think we take just anybody? Thanks for offering yourself on a silver platter, by the way. Doctors fetch a hefty price on the slave markets....
Point being: the other groups on-world have no real reason to accept your outlaw, even without an explanation as to why they left. Remember: groups of people often mistrust, if not outright hate strangers to the group. That is, of course, assuming they ran away from your colony at all. Rimworld is a deathworld. Anybody alone in the wilderness is liable to be killed by hostile wildlife, regardless of equipment. There is a reason, after all, why humanity bands together, even back in the Paleolithic.
So, let us assume the intrepid outlaw makes the smart decision, and stays in your colony. What is he gonna do, refuse to work? That will last a long time....
-Murderer: You can't call me a murderer! I ...... refuse to work!
-LEO: Cool. You refuse to work, we refuse to feed you. You will stay in this cell until you agree to our conditions, and any deaths or injuries that result as an outcome of your incarceration will be held accountable to you. So ; stand up and admit to what you did, take some social heat, and get back to work, or stay in here, starve, and be held accountable for whatever happens next?
-Murderer: ......
-LEO: Alright, see you in a week.
-Murderer: You ..... can't do this!
-LEO: Yeah, actually, we can. Your apprentice, while she isn't as good as you, can keep people alive/keep the engines running until you make a choice. You can either agree to our decision, take a nice long walk out into the (hostile, cold, animal-infested) hinterland, or stay in that cell. Life, death, or death?
Oh, and said "judgement" doesn't necessarily have to take place right away. After all the medical/machinery-related issues are dealt with, or dealt with to a safe extent, call all the colonists in:
LEO: hey everyone. Remember how Jerry got stabbed to death? Well, we figured out who did it. And, while this person is very important to the running of the colony, we still have rules. As such, they will be restricted to basic rations, locked in a cell at night, and receive a sentence of 10 lashes. Remember, everyone; murder is murder, regardless of passion, and the "usual" penalty for this crime is death. Think about that the next time you get angry.
Oh, and humanity has totally had laws and such, even if they weren't written down. In Paleolithic Europe, murderers and thieves would be exiled from the tribe, which meant death. In viking-era Iceland, the Thing would have people specifically trained in literally memorizing the entirety of Nordic law (which was actually rather complex) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawspeaker] Such "contracts" on acceptable behavior were just remembered through oaths and such, instead of written down. There has never been a point in human history where people have not been bound by limits on social behavior. The " Code of Hammurabi" is significant not because it is the first code of law, but because it is the first code of law that was written down. Pretty significant distinction.
Let's just not, and keep busy fighting those mechanoids and seigers that are trying to burn you down, k? This would indeed be a nightmare to code.
Also, if one of my pawns, say a shitty new one, killed my best colonist I'd had, I would punch whoever made that change.
If crime was a mechanic, I think it would really work best as a random popup event:
"Jabear complains to the rest of the colonists that Redfield snuck into his room and stole a potato he was saving for his birthday. Redfield denies any wrongdoing. What should be done?"
Then you could have a few options:
Jail Redfield for 3(or however many) days. If he is innocent, he will carry a serious mood debuff for a long time. If guilty, he will carry the normal imprisonment debuff which will end upon release. There is also the chance that he will become violent and resist arrest.
Do nothing. Jabear will take a serious mood debuff if he wasn't lying about Redfield, and will permanently get a 'Had an unpleasant conversation' debuff whenever he converses with Redfield, the scoundrel.
Or something like that. I don't think a brand new balanced system is needed, when something like that can be handled via the storyteller.
^ That sounds like it would work
Quote from: Boston on August 24, 2015, 07:47:32 AM
^ That sounds like it would work
That sounds like it belongs in a choose your own adventure book.
Crime should be a dynamic thing. Occasionally colonists (perhaps motivated by a hidden 'delinquency' stat which varies from pawn to pawn) should get into fist-fights over arguments, attempt to steal from each other, refuse to work (slack off in their room or whatever), set fires (arson), riot (wreck stuff all over the joint), etc.
And when they kick off your guards should swiftly descend on them with less than lethal weapons (truncheons, beanbag shotguns, tasers or fists if nothing else is available), beat the ever-loving crap out of them and imprison them.
This would encourage you to set colonists to guard the colony... As opposed to whatever it is guards do currently... Mostly pick dandelions and roses out in the fields and haul pretty pink dresses around before hulking the crap out like Mel Gibson in The Patriot and machine-gunning down enemy raiders... Then wipe the blood off their faces and go right back to picking spuds... ???
Naturally crime would be more frequent the worse the colonists moods were. Another incentive to make them happy.
Quote from: The13thRonin on August 24, 2015, 08:19:25 AM
Quote from: Boston on August 24, 2015, 07:47:32 AM
^ That sounds like it would work
That sounds like it belongs in a choose your own adventure book.
What you just said sounds like an adventure novel.
Good discussion :).