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RimWorld => Ideas => Topic started by: IdeaBoy on October 07, 2013, 07:36:23 PM

Title: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: IdeaBoy on October 07, 2013, 07:36:23 PM
When i was watching videos, when someone drafted a person it said they can't stay too long or you're colonist will die so i thought if he and his other drafted people was done killing off threats they could patrol the home zone (if they had no other things to do) and you can assign their patrol spot by clicking and drag where you want them and if they see treats like wild animals,fires,raiders,and mental colonists they can seize the threat and if they get hungry (assuming when relationships come) they will eat but ask another person with a gun to guard but if they have a bad social no one will guard until he's done eating. 8) (has to be in the home zone)
Title: Re: Drafting- ideas?
Post by: Spike on October 07, 2013, 07:54:47 PM
Yeah, I'm currently watching Blitzkriegler's playthrough, and he left a soldier drafted for about 3 days.  Perhaps there needs to be some default behavior order, so they can at least go eat if there are no pirates attacking.

Actually, instead of the Drafted Soldier/Undrafted Civilian, I'd like to see a more robust system if it would be possible.  For example, Drafting would put them in as  a militia, with 3 behavior modes.  1) Normal - do ordinary jobs.  2) Pirates landed but not attacking - patrol player defined routes.  3) Pirates attacking - player control or default (defensive/aggressive) actions.

Along that line, it would also be good for some default Civilian behavior when pirates attack - maybe define a bunker zone, maybe just stick to the home zone, maybe just avoid the area where pirates are.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: AspenShadow on October 07, 2013, 08:02:51 PM
Personally I like drafting pretty much the way it is, it's not hard to remember to turn them off so they can eat and sleep again after all and it stops people having colonists solely dedicated to soldiering/patrolling the base for the opportunity to kill a squirrel that strayed too close.
Fires get put out pretty sharpish even if someone isn't on the watch for them and raiders are polite enough to give you advanced warning in the current Alpha version lol
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Spike on October 07, 2013, 08:04:37 PM
At the very least, I think there should be more of a visual notice about it.  Maybe that will be part of the artwork design, so that a drafted soldier is visually different from a civilian, maybe just a button change so that it's a bit more noticeable when drafted.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: IdeaBoy on October 07, 2013, 08:10:37 PM
Yea like they could wear a green uniform or something like that and yea, i think it would be cool spike to have like a emergency plan for your civs if pirates are attacking they can go to the weapon rack and grab all the weapons there to help fight if the militia has to retreat inside and they reached the place where you assign them.                                       

So they have weapons/bare hands to  try to fend them off or activate boobytraps that you set up and forgot to initiate them  and fight to the last man so they will still have a colony to live in.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 08, 2013, 04:18:44 AM
I'm not sure if that will answer the initial questions, but here goes anyway:
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: IdeaBoy on October 08, 2013, 08:37:15 AM
When put them to patrol you can still control them to i thought i said that.....
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 08, 2013, 09:05:17 AM
Sure, just like I thought I said the sole purpose of drafting, as of now, is to control the colonists.

Now, what could be done (besides redesigning the whole drafting system) that would go well along what you're saying, is to have a way to define "patrol zones", just like there is a "home zone" now.
There would be differences, of course, like the colonists won't do any cleaning or maintenance there.

What do you think ?
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Spike on October 08, 2013, 09:17:27 AM
Yeah, that would work.  I just think that the biggest issue that I've seen (from watching videos) is that if you forget to Undraft a colonist, they stand there and do nothing - until they starve.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 08, 2013, 09:22:47 AM
True, because drafting/controlling is the higher priority.
I would then take it that if we can define patrol zones, they might behave the same way: what would be the point of setting a patrol zone, which is supposed to be important to defend/scout/whatever if the colonist(s) affected there just leave to get a nap ?

It may require some way to get around this without the patroller going crazy (or dead).
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: AspenShadow on October 08, 2013, 10:14:51 AM
Once again I really think this issue could be solved simply with a red exclamation mark/symbol over the drafted colonist's head. If people still have trouble remembering a colonist is drafted with that addition I'm not sure they're capable of playing the game at all.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 08, 2013, 10:26:03 AM
A patrol zone command would be a worthwhile addition, provided the few caveats mentionned earlier are taken care of.

About the drafting itself, I suspect the problem is when you send your soldier(s) away from your colony, and just forget about them because they are not in sight anymore (especially true the more colonists you have).
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Spike on October 08, 2013, 10:42:27 AM
Quote from: British on October 08, 2013, 10:26:03 AM
A patrol zone command would be a worthwhile addition, provided the few caveats mentionned earlier are taken care of.

About the drafting itself, I suspect the problem is when you send your soldier(s) away from your colony, and just forget about them because they are not in sight anymore (especially true the more colonists you have).
Actually, is this  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGtEM1gojY0)your video?  I thought I saw the name "British Blitzkriegler" somewhere, so not sure if you are the same.  Anyway, this is the one that made me think it needed some kind of tweak.

So here's one thought for Tynan.  At the very least, a visually distinctive notice for the player that a colonist is drafted:
Left is the current view.  Middle is a simple button swap, instead of the current "Draft/Undraft" button - when drafted, the button is not the normal black text on tan button, but visually distinctive.  Or a third alternative on the right, instead of the Draft/Undraft, the buttons are colored different and labelled to the purpose of Civilian/Soldier.  It could show only the active button, or maybe have both shown with the inactive one greyed out.

(http://i.imgur.com/qJR0EPH.png)

Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 08, 2013, 10:57:12 AM
My only interactions with YouTube are passive ;)

A possibility would also be to have a reminder in the top-right of the screen that says "You have colonist(s) drafted".
The message would stay there as long as it's still valid.
We could also have alerts (the messages) every so often reminding us of the drafting status.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Zeiph on October 08, 2013, 12:24:55 PM
Or you can simply have your colonist disobay when their "moral" is not high enough, for example when they are missing sleeping time or feeding.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Hypolite on October 08, 2013, 12:34:56 PM
Actually, there is a notice when a colonist has been drafted for a while. It's about sleep deprivation and starvation, which are strong motivation to free said colonist from military duties.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 08, 2013, 12:57:25 PM
Quote from: Hypolite on October 08, 2013, 12:34:56 PM
It's about sleep deprivation and starvation (...)
Or it's simply about obedience:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Ip-WU2tLHW8/TtT-OUvwFfI/AAAAAAAANc4/LheKsOTUtWA/s728/full_metal_jacket.jpg)
YOU DON'T MOVE UNTIL I SAY SO !!!
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: AspenShadow on October 08, 2013, 01:44:37 PM
Seeing as the main reason for this command isn't to designate them as a solider but to take personal and complete control of their actions, I don't think them disobeying based on morale would work out. Certainly with automated tasked colonists which is already being implemented I think, but not with the button you rely on to save your butt from raiders. It would just annoy people.

While I really like the idea of patrol routes; don't know why maybe it just calls to the military-school-type in me, I can't get behind it unless it can do something a colonist wandering the home zone or a drafted soldier can't?
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Hypolite on October 08, 2013, 02:10:16 PM
My ideas why RimWorld doesn't need patrols:
- There's no fog of war (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.0), so no surprises a patrol could foil
- Fire is automatically taken care of by any colonist
- Colonists fight back when attacked by mad wildlife, and only muffalo are a serious threat to a single colonist
- You can choose not to arrest mentally broke down colonists
- Colonists in general have better uses (haul, clean, etc...) while not drafted/soldiers
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: enystrom8734 on October 09, 2013, 01:32:01 PM
Quote from: Zeiph on October 08, 2013, 12:24:55 PM
Or you can simply have your colonist disobay when their "moral" is not high enough, for example when they are missing sleeping time or feeding.

Quote from: Hypolite on October 08, 2013, 02:10:16 PM
My ideas why RimWorld doesn't need patrols:
- There's no fog of war (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.0), so no surprises a patrol could foil
- Fire is automatically taken care of by any colonist
- Colonists fight back when attacked by mad wildlife, and only muffalo are a serious threat to a single colonist
- You can choose not to arrest mentally broke down colonists
- Colonists in general have better uses (haul, clean, etc...) while not drafted/soldiers

I do like the current way drafting works. It is the COs responsibility to tell them what to do...

However what Zeiph suggest is a great idea. What if you leave them drafted for too long? They could either ignore a direct order or undraft themselves. If they undraft themsevles, you can't draft them again for x amount of time period.

This I would enjoy. Colonist standing in rain for long time drafted? Big up yours and bye bye soldier duty. Let me relax and do NOTHING while my friends get beat up. Could end up in some really interesting stories...
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: IdeaBoy on October 11, 2013, 11:30:16 AM
Then their should be an option for fog of war for the patrols to be effective and flood lights and cameras and all that surveillance stuff and there would be no warning of raiders or wild animals on the map.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Spike on October 11, 2013, 11:38:08 AM
True.  However, Tynan commented on that over in the Uncertainty Veil (Fog of War) (http://ludeon.com/forums/index.php?topic=146.0) thread.  Basically, it would take him a lot of work to implement in a workable manner.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: SpaceEatingTrex on October 11, 2013, 10:27:09 PM
Quote from: Spike on October 08, 2013, 10:42:27 AMSo here's one thought for Tynan.  At the very least, a visually distinctive notice for the player that a colonist is drafted.

I like Spike's idea of making the Draft button more visible when a colonist is drafted, though the specific implementation should fit well with the visual themes of the game.

While I was watching an LP, I noticed the player had to look for which colonists had guns and draft them individually. I think being able to choose soldiers in advance and draft them all at once might be useful functionality. Here's a mock-up (thanks for the image Spike!):

(http://i.imgur.com/Tdcxf5m.png)

Elsewhere in the interface the player would have a "Draft all Militia" button. Then players could get all the soldiers they want with one click.

For people who are already playing the pre-Alpha, does this seem like something you would use?
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: GC13 on October 11, 2013, 10:32:14 PM
It would be amazingly useful, and I've already suggested something functionally similar: the ability to draft and select all colonists with weapons.

Next up would be a screen that displays all of my colonists' shooting skills and what gun they had, but I can wait for that one. ^_^
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Spike on October 11, 2013, 10:39:53 PM
Quote from: GC13 on October 11, 2013, 10:32:14 PM
It would be amazingly useful, and I've already suggested something functionally similar: the ability to draft and select all colonists with weapons.

Next up would be a screen that displays all of my colonists' shooting skills and what gun they had, but I can wait for that one. ^_^

I tossed the idea up in the Cheapest Ideas thread, but...
* Modify the Overview window so that it also shows what weapon the colonist is equipped with. (mouseover shows skill)

Actually, it seems like the Overview window might also be a place with a Draft toggle.  Checkboxes, Draft/Undraft All button, Draft/Undraft Selected button.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: GC13 on October 12, 2013, 12:03:01 AM
The weapon on the Overview screen wouldn't help me much (unless you could draft from it). I just want to make sure my best fighters have my best weapons, and it's too hard for me to remember who I've already checked so a single screen would make my job so much easier.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 12, 2013, 07:18:54 AM
Quote from: Spike on October 08, 2013, 10:42:27 AMSo here's one thought for Tynan.  At the very least, a visually distinctive notice for the player that a colonist is drafted.
Thinking back about this... there *is* a quick way to find out a colonist is drafted by clicking on him (no need to go through the "Work" menu):
(http://ludeon.com/wikirimworld/images/c/c5/Drafted.png)

If this icon is red like this, that colonist is drafted.
You can (could ?) even click on this button instead, or, even better, use the shortcut.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Spike on October 12, 2013, 01:08:05 PM
Quote from: British on October 12, 2013, 07:18:54 AM
Quote from: Spike on October 08, 2013, 10:42:27 AMSo here's one thought for Tynan.  At the very least, a visually distinctive notice for the player that a colonist is drafted.
Thinking back about this... there *is* a quick way to find out a colonist is drafted by clicking on him (no need to go through the "Work" menu):
(http://ludeon.com/wikirimworld/images/c/c5/Drafted.png)

If this icon is red like this, that colonist is drafted.
You can (could ?) even click on this button instead, or, even better, use the shortcut.

Yeah, I actually did see that in some of the recent videos from either Christonian or Blitzkriegsler.  When I first saw that part of the interface on the early videos, I thought it was a melee weapon equipment slot, since the ranged weapon slot was next to it.  I still think that kind of functionality (and weapon equipping) from the Overview list might be nice, if it'd be possible.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Hypolite on October 12, 2013, 02:41:49 PM
There are actually many ways to recognize drafted colonists:
- Their name is underlined
- They don't move at all (idle colonists will walk randomly)
- The red icon in their info screen when selected
- The "Soldiers need break" notice which center the map over the drafted colonists
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: SpaceEatingTrex on October 12, 2013, 04:17:00 PM
Here's an idea that seems relatively easy to implement and should give players a user-friendly interface for soldiers.

First step is to add a "Military'' or "Soldiers" tab to the interface:

(http://i.imgur.com/K2AHnIg.png)

This tab would open a menu that would allow players to draft multiple colonists and change equipment. Here's a mock-up:

(http://i.imgur.com/Mys3LNr.png)

This displays each Colonist and their combat relevant stats (right now Shooting and Hand-To-Hand). The Militia checkbox would just be a simple boolean flag that lets players draft core soldiers with the "Draft Militia" button. GC13 had mentioning wanting to make sure the best soldiers are equipped with the best weapons, so if we can give the players the ability to assign a new weapon on this screen (a "this colonist" go equip "this weapon" function) that would be great.

Does this seem like something that would be helpful to use?
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: GC13 on October 12, 2013, 04:37:48 PM
Minor quibble: the Military tab would go on the right. That spot on the left is for stuff specific to one character.

All in all though, that's the kind of screen I'd like to see.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 12, 2013, 05:37:34 PM
Quote from: SpaceEatingTrex on October 12, 2013, 04:17:00 PM
Stuff
(http://i.imgur.com/9NN3eaF.jpg)
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Spike on October 12, 2013, 07:32:12 PM
Quote from: Hypolite on October 12, 2013, 02:41:49 PM
There are actually many ways to recognize drafted colonists:
- Their name is underlined
- They don't move at all (idle colonists will walk randomly)
- The red icon in their info screen when selected
- The "Soldiers need break" notice which center the map over the drafted colonists
This is the problem of not being able to play the game, and only watching videos.   :P  You can only see what the person who played did, and will miss things.  For example, I have never seen the "Soldiers need break" notice, and only caught that you could use the red icon on the info screen to draft/undraft recently.  I would say that I have less qualms about it at this point.

Quote from: SpaceEatingTrex on October 12, 2013, 04:17:00 PM
First step is to add a "Military'' or "Soldiers" tab to the interface:

This displays each Colonist and their combat relevant stats (right now Shooting and Hand-To-Hand). The Militia checkbox would just be a simple boolean flag that lets players draft core soldiers with the "Draft Militia" button. GC13 had mentioning wanting to make sure the best soldiers are equipped with the best weapons, so if we can give the players the ability to assign a new weapon on this screen (a "this colonist" go equip "this weapon" function) that would be great.

I do like the idea of some kind of Military Overview screen, where you can see everyone's combat stats, equipped weapons, and have the ability to change equipment or draft them, all in one easy spot.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 13, 2013, 05:01:39 AM
Quote from: Spike on October 12, 2013, 07:32:12 PM
For example, I have never seen the "Soldiers need break" notice, and only caught that you could use the red icon on the info screen to draft/undraft recently.
You can check this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=jGtEM1gojY0#t=561) (from Blitzkriegsler), and if you wait until 13:00 or so, you'll notice the "Soldier needs break" text, thanks to Blitz missing the fact that the colonist was still drafted ::) ;)
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Spike on October 13, 2013, 09:30:12 AM
Ah... it's way off in the top right, where minor notices are.  I don't think I've ever really looked at that corner in any video...  Considering the importance of it, that should be big glaring mid-screen message, or a dropping envelope.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 13, 2013, 02:31:14 PM
Once you know it's here, I suppose you won't forget that easily.
It also provides informations when you hover above the messages, like the names of the colonists that are having a mental breakdown, starving, or whatever...
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Spike on October 13, 2013, 03:49:23 PM
Quote from: SpaceEatingTrex on October 12, 2013, 04:17:00 PM
Here's an idea that seems relatively easy to implement and should give players a user-friendly interface for soldiers.

First step is to add a "Military'' or "Soldiers" tab to the interface:

(http://i.imgur.com/K2AHnIg.png)

This tab would open a menu that would allow players to draft multiple colonists and change equipment. Here's a mock-up:

Instead of that, how about another tab on the Overview screen, where you could view weapon skills, assign equipment, and draft some or all?  Something like this:
(http://i.imgur.com/fcRj1mw.png)
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: SpaceEatingTrex on October 13, 2013, 05:21:14 PM
Quote from: Spike on October 13, 2013, 03:49:23 PM
*a much better mock-up*

Looks good Spike! I do think the Overview screen is a better location (all I know of the interface is from watching LPs).

However, I do think there needs to be a militia system or a "Draft Equipped" button or similar. From what I've seen, there are a number of times players will want to draft multiple colonists. Letting them do so with one click instead of many seems like a worthwhile optimization.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 13, 2013, 05:24:42 PM
Quote from: SpaceEatingTrex on October 13, 2013, 05:21:14 PM
From what I've seen, there are a number of times players will want to draft multiple colonists. Letting them do so with one click instead of many seems like a worthwhile optimization.
Since there's a hotkey for the drafting, maybe you can already select multiple colonists and hit the hotkey (or click the corresponding button).
Any tester to confirm or infirm that ?
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: GC13 on October 13, 2013, 05:32:50 PM
Yeah, you can select and draft multiple colonists at once. However, some colonists don't like to fight so unless you can memorize who those are you're going to have to either needlessly expose them to fire or spend a lot of time going through your colonists seeing who can actually fight back.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: Spike on October 13, 2013, 05:49:55 PM
Right.  That's why I got to thinking about something like this.  On one tab, you can see skills (and maybe it would be better to show the number, that was a copy/paste job), who has equipment, and what equipment is unassigned.  You check everyone you want to draft (first column), click the "Draft" button, and they're all drafted.

Another thought to expand on the Overview window would be to add a "Prisoner" tab, so you could check the treatment options for everyone.

EDIT:  Like this.
(http://i.imgur.com/1MawGhX.png)
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: starlight on October 17, 2013, 09:49:49 AM
Quote from: AspenShadow on October 07, 2013, 08:02:51 PM
Personally I like drafting pretty much the way it is, it's not hard to remember to turn them off so they can eat and sleep again after all and it stops people having colonists solely dedicated to soldiering/patrolling the base for the opportunity to kill a squirrel that strayed too close.
Fires get put out pretty sharpish even if someone isn't on the watch for them and raiders are polite enough to give you advanced warning in the current Alpha version lol

In Dwarf Fortress, you can have your militia train to improve their skills.
This would be good to implement otherwise people will start to prolong fights just to get their colonists trained up  in fighting skills.

Once you have that, then you will need a mechanism for colonist militia to eat / drink.
The DF solution is for them to have backpacks.
You might want to have a toggle for them to not eat / sleep / drink for when you are being attacked.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: miah999 on October 17, 2013, 10:05:38 AM
Interesting... if Tynan institutes a an actual military some of these mechanics could work.

I'd add that a true military should be based on Research, you can't make an actual army until you research things like:

Military Tactics, allows you to have permanently drafted soldiers that will eat and sleep, on a military time table.

Ruck Sacks, allow soldiers to carry food with them.

Etc...

Side note, right now you can improve a colonist shooting skill by shooting squirrels.

Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: British on October 18, 2013, 05:14:46 AM
Quote from: starlight on October 17, 2013, 09:49:49 AM
In Dwarf Fortress, you can have your militia train to improve their skills.
This would be good to implement otherwise people will start to prolong fights just to get their colonists trained up  in fighting skills.
That shouldn't be a problem in RimWorld, as for the time being Tynan doesn't plan to have the skills' experience evolve drastically.
Yes, you do gain experience in a skill by using it, but the learning curve is slow, and the difference between one skill point and the next is minimal.
The idea behind this was, if I remember correctly, to counter the usual "train until you cap your skill(s)" issue.
Title: Re: Ideas-Drafting?
Post by: AspenShadow on October 25, 2013, 07:02:39 AM
Quote from: miah999 on October 17, 2013, 10:05:38 AM
Interesting... if Tynan institutes a an actual military some of these mechanics could work.

I'd add that a true military should be based on Research, you can't make an actual army until you research things like:

Military Tactics, allows you to have permanently drafted soldiers that will eat and sleep, on a military time table.

Ruck Sacks, allow soldiers to carry food with them.

Etc...

Side note, right now you can improve a colonist shooting skill by shooting squirrels.

:'( :'( :'(  I'm noticing a pattern of animal sadism in this forum.

Also I believe Tynan has previously stated he's not keen on the concept of a dedicated military, because while the raids and combat is a fairly big part of Rimworld, he primarily envisioned it as a colony builder/survival game that would produce amusing and varied stories.
On a side-note, we could use some scripted events that add more emotional investment to individual colonists. If you can't love or hate or pick favourites among your little guys than the story suffers for it imo.